[Cross Faction Trials] ZOS, I Personally Thank You For Ruining END GAME Competition

Ghost-Shot · March 2016

Cross faction counting towards leader boards is bull ***, after waiting so long for some competitive content this is seriously disappointing. With WoW Legion and Camelot Unchained beta coming up its becoming very difficult to want to play this game.

Nifty2g · March 2016

In the end, people who support this are the ones who don't care about scores and fail to see the impact it's going to have against those who oppose it. People just want to play with their friends

People who don't support this are the ones who are dominating the leaderboards right now. And are worrying it's going to destroy all of the competitiveness left in this game, yes we waited 2 years for a new trial, our guilds are still alive and fighting each other, but it doesn't matter anymore.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert why not just keep cross faction a thing but remove the scores from leaderboards, if there is so much negativity against this from all the active guilds running it, doesn't it seem like bad territory to step in? The people who are against it are in the minority but the ones who are against it are those who have been giving trial feedback and those who are your end game serious raiders, which I believe should be listened to, to an extent.
I don't see why you can't just remove scoring from these cross faction trials.

I also think you guys should give feedback before adding such changes like these, it's highly insulting to all the people who put the work in and competed each other only to have it not matter as much in the end.

Bluepitbull13 · March 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

In the end, people who support this are the ones who don't care about scores and fail to see the impact it's going to have against those who oppose it. People just want to play with their friends

People who don't support this are the ones who are dominating the leaderboards right now. And are worrying it's going to destroy all of the competitiveness left in this game, yes we waited 2 years for a new trial, our guilds are still alive and fighting each other, but it doesn't matter anymore.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert why not just keep cross faction a thing but remove the scores from leaderboards, if there is so much negativity against this from all the active guilds running it, doesn't it seem like bad territory to step in? The people who are against it are in the minority but the ones who are against it are those who have been giving trial feedback and those who are your end game serious raiders, which I believe should be listened to, to an extent.
I don't see why you can't just remove scoring from these cross faction trials.

I also think you guys should give feedback before adding such changes like these, it's highly insulting to all the people who put the work in and competed each other only to have it not matter as much in the end.

Minno · March 2016

@Nifty2g I share your distain for the lack of communication between ZOS and community regarding final decisions.

With that said, I do not see the need to lock leaderboards to each individual faction. Consider the following reasons:

1) cross faction grouping allows players to engage openly with other faction players. Having locked pve factions does not stimulate the open-world design intent. In pvp, locked factions makes sense but in pve, aside from purist leaderboard logging, it serves the communities interests to allow everyone to group for the content.

2) if the issue concerns elite players using alts to dominate the boards, might be considered abusive game play. While not cheating, this exploitative path might result in leaderboards becoming account-bound over character bound. Worth reviewing.

3) if cross faction grouping exists, cross -Faction phasing must be removed. Every city and every ES game had all races playable and seen in every corner of tamreil. Therefore we should be able to visit and see each other. Must review for balance related to material gathering for vr16+ mats.

hedna123b14_ESO · March 2016

Fetaro wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

The dream team is exactly it. There are bad players, good players and amazing players. Currently each top guild has a mix of all three. Some have a mix of good and amazing. If cross faction leaderboards were to be a thing then all of the amazing players would group together and never have anyone to compete with and ruin it for the others who maybe are good players on their way to becoming amazing players.

The way I see it, you are too lazy to train yourself to become an amazing player, and just want to hang with them to have a better score without sweating.

The way I see it you have no idea whether in my argument I was a bad a good or an amazing player. Contrary to your logic I don't always consider the repercussions for myself first, but more for the community as a whole.

Nifty2g · March 2016

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g I share your distain for the lack of communication between ZOS and community regarding final decisions.

With that said, I do not see the need to lock leaderboards to each individual faction. Consider the following reasons:

1) cross faction grouping allows players to engage openly with other faction players. Having locked pve factions does not stimulate the open-world design intent. In pvp, locked factions makes sense but in pve, aside from purist leaderboard logging, it serves the communities interests to allow everyone to group for the content.

2) if the issue concerns elite players using alts to dominate the boards, might be considered abusive game play. While not cheating, this exploitative path might result in leaderboards becoming account-bound over character bound. Worth reviewing.

3) if cross faction grouping exists, cross -Faction phasing must be removed. Every city and every ES game had all races playable and seen in every corner of tamreil. Therefore we should be able to visit and see each other. Must review for balance related to material gathering for vr16+ mats.

Most of your points here don't exactly talk about scores. So why do we need to have scores included? If anything, keep them for the weekly but don't have them show on the Top 100?
Because from all these points you gave me, you're not even mentioning what we all all concerned about; competition with each other.

Bluepitbull13 · March 2016

Minno wrote: »

2) if the issue concerns elite players using alts to dominate the boards, might be considered abusive game play. While not cheating, this exploitative path might result in leaderboards becoming account-bound over character bound. Worth reviewing.

lololol we have already had that brought up on the Council of Raiders months ago, from us that can abuse it and trying to fix it lol

I guess at this point just make 1 big mega guild with all the best players across 3 factions for NA and likewise for EU and then it's 2 mega guilds competing, and nobody sees a problem with this? hahahaahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha

kylewwefan · March 2016

I'm never gonna be on a leaderboard, so is no big deal. I'd like to be able to play with other factions and use group finder for trials. I don't ge

hammayolettuce · March 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

I'm never gonna be on a leaderboard, so is no big deal. I'd like to be able to play with other factions and use group finder for trials. I don't ge

Everyone in the major pve guilds are all agreeing that playing with your friends cross faction is great. However, the completion of the content should not be on the leaderboards if you have group members from another alliance.

Completing the content with your friends will allow you to get your coffer at the end once you complete the quest and still allow you to obtain any available gear. But it should not allow you to be on the leaderboards.

Bluepitbull13 · March 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

I'm never gonna be on a leaderboard, so is no big deal. I'd like to be able to play with other factions and use group finder for trials. I don't ge

lmaol we dont have a problem with what you said, it's the score part which you may never be in but several of the top players in both servers who are constantly in the top of all the leaderboards do have a problem with it and can't seem to make it clearer to casual players how this is horrible idea.

Nifty2g · March 2016

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I'm never gonna be on a leaderboard, so is no big deal. I'd like to be able to play with other factions and use group finder for trials. I don't ge

lmaol we dont have a problem with what you said, it's the score part which you may never be in but several of the top players in both servers who are constantly in the top of all the leaderboards do have a problem with it and can't seem to make it clearer to casual players how this is horrible idea.

You know it's really frustrating how hard it is to make it clearer, I don't understand why people want scores if they're not competitive, while those who are and are in say the top 3-5 are saying its a good bad but people not seeing why. I thought I made it really clear in the OP before I even talked about anything

The only people this affects are those in a trade guild, and those in a trade guild rarely even get on the leaderboards or even care about them for that matter. Priorities ZOS, priorities.

hedna123b14_ESO · March 2016

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

I am completely against Nifty's argument. I strongly, strongly support cross-faction group content for everything in the game. Why? Right now, if you want to run a Trial, you can only do so with 1/3 of the player population. Why is there an artificial limitation on the amount of different players I can run with?

If you want to go for a world record time, YOU WANT THE 12 BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD. If those 12 players are split across factions, you can only run with 4 of the best players at a time. This is silly. The best of the best always want to run with the best.

Destroying lore?
Trials are faction agnostic to begin with. Not destroying lore at all.

Destroying the competitiveness across factions?
Eh. There's PVP for that. And even then, a lot of the top guilds hop around factions. As for PVE, it's much more beneficial to be able to play group content with the full player population. I see this "destroying competitiveness" argument as having no weight.

Encouraging elitist behavior?
Already exists. Allowing cross faction grouping isn't going to change anything at all.

Removing the competition between all current top guilds?
Just don't form groups outside of your guild... Like yeah... I'm not sure how being cross faction stops you from doing this. What a silly argument you have here.

I dont think you understand that having these runs be on leaderboards hurts both - the overall community AND those elite 12 players. Currently you have top guilds on each faction going toe to toe with each other, each having its own weaknesses and strengths. If you group the best 12 players on the megaserver together they will blow through any scores that were previously the record.

Why is this bad? It is bad for the community because:
1. The rest of the megaserver wont be able to compete with this elite group
2. In order to train to be better players and make it into a group that can compete with this "dream team" you need to have the experience of running with good players. It teaches you to be a player that no guide or video can substitute for. So the others will be discouraged from trying, knowing full well it will be next to impossible to compete with a group like this.
3. It is bad for that "dream team" since no one will even come close to their score, thus eliminating their desire to compete since there will be NO ONE to compete against. Players will get bored of trying to win if there is no competition.
4. This seems to me akin to big companies colluding together and making it impossible for the small businesses to grow. Not a healthy environment to thrive in...

Bluepitbull13 · March 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

You know it's really frustrating how hard it is to make it clearer, I don't understand why people want scores if they're not competitive, while those who are and are in say the top 3-5 are saying its a good bad but people not seeing why. I thought I made it really clear in the OP before I even talked about anything

The only people this affects are those in a trade guild, and those in a trade guild rarely even get on the leaderboards or even care about them for that matter. Priorities ZOS, priorities.

and then reply on this thread "i want to play with my friends cross faction, your post is against it" lololol holy mother of god did you not read the original post? or all the other comments from the top players from both servers?

Bluepitbull13 · March 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I dont think you understand that having these runs be on leaderboards hurts both - the overall community AND those elite 12 players. Currently you have top guilds on each faction going toe to toe with each other, each having its own weaknesses and strengths. If you group the best 12 players on the megaserver together they will blow through any scores that were previously the record.

Why is this bad? It is bad for the community because:
1. The rest of the megaserver wont be able to compete with this elite group
2. In order to train to be better players and make it into a group that can compete with this "dream team" you need to have the experience of running with good players. It teaches you to be a player that no guide or video can substitute for. So the others will be discouraged from trying, knowing full well it will be next to impossible to compete with a group like this.
3. It is bad for that "dream team" since no one will even come close to their score, thus eliminating their desire to compete since there will be NO ONE to compete against. Players will get bored of trying to win if there is no competition.
4. This seems to me akin to big companies colluding together and making it impossible for the small businesses to grow. Not a healthy environment to thrive in...

casuals don't understand that this is only creates a monopoly within raiding guilds, 1 big mega guild to have all the top players across 3 factions on 1 server and I say this because I doubt there's still enough players to make 2 or 3 mega guilds since EVERY single change we keep losing valuable intelligent players that know all the basic mechanics that cusuals don't L2P for.

So 1 mega guild for NA competing against an EU mega guild? lmaol so sad

Minno · March 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g I share your distain for the lack of communication between ZOS and community regarding final decisions.

With that said, I do not see the need to lock leaderboards to each individual faction. Consider the following reasons:

1) cross faction grouping allows players to engage openly with other faction players. Having locked pve factions does not stimulate the open-world design intent. In pvp, locked factions makes sense but in pve, aside from purist leaderboard logging, it serves the communities interests to allow everyone to group for the content.

2) if the issue concerns elite players using alts to dominate the boards, might be considered abusive game play. While not cheating, this exploitative path might result in leaderboards becoming account-bound over character bound. Worth reviewing.

3) if cross faction grouping exists, cross -Faction phasing must be removed. Every city and every ES game had all races playable and seen in every corner of tamreil. Therefore we should be able to visit and see each other. Must review for balance related to material gathering for vr16+ mats.

Most of your points here don't exactly talk about scores. So why do we need to have scores included? If anything, keep them for the weekly but don't have them show on the Top 100?
Because from all these points you gave me, you're not even mentioning what we all all concerned about; competition with each other.

If the only negative is that top players will use alts to dominate top score board, then a solution is required to limit the Alt-spam abuse. While not related to points, directly related to competitive and fair game play which can inflate the scoreboard reducing its relevancy.

Opening up the playing field, in essence, opens up competition. DC no longer has to dominate against DC, it now has to actively compete with AD and EP. Friends don't have to be locked to one faction to play. Competition still requires guilds with successful core groups. Except now your talent pool has extended and tri-faction guilds more relevant.

Cross -Faction phasing limits finding pugs at trial entrances or at quest givers. Not related to score, but related to core groups finding new talent pools for content.

Tbh, I'm finding hardly any negative impacts on this. Just organization related to data (DC only groups versus multi faction groups I.E.).

Nifty2g · March 2016

Minno wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g I share your distain for the lack of communication between ZOS and community regarding final decisions.

With that said, I do not see the need to lock leaderboards to each individual faction. Consider the following reasons:

1) cross faction grouping allows players to engage openly with other faction players. Having locked pve factions does not stimulate the open-world design intent. In pvp, locked factions makes sense but in pve, aside from purist leaderboard logging, it serves the communities interests to allow everyone to group for the content.

2) if the issue concerns elite players using alts to dominate the boards, might be considered abusive game play. While not cheating, this exploitative path might result in leaderboards becoming account-bound over character bound. Worth reviewing.

3) if cross faction grouping exists, cross -Faction phasing must be removed. Every city and every ES game had all races playable and seen in every corner of tamreil. Therefore we should be able to visit and see each other. Must review for balance related to material gathering for vr16+ mats.

Most of your points here don't exactly talk about scores. So why do we need to have scores included? If anything, keep them for the weekly but don't have them show on the Top 100?
Because from all these points you gave me, you're not even mentioning what we all all concerned about; competition with each other.

If the only negative is that top players will use alts to dominate top score board, then a solution is required to limit the Alt-spam abuse. While not related to points, directly related to competitive and fair game play which can inflate the scoreboard reducing its relevancy.

Opening up the playing field, in essence, opens up competition. DC no longer has to dominate against DC, it now has to actively compete with AD and EP. Friends don't have to be locked to one faction to play. Competition still requires guilds with successful core groups. Except now your talent pool has extended and tri-faction guilds more relevant.

Cross -Faction phasing limits finding pugs at trial entrances or at quest givers. Not related to score, but related to core groups finding new talent pools for content.

Tbh, I'm finding hardly any negative impacts on this. Just organization related to data (DC only groups versus multi faction groups I.E.).

read above posts as to why, I shouldn't have to spell this out. It doesn't open up competition as those who want to compete have no chance against a dream team and then the people who get left out will eventually leave as they've been waiting 2 years for nothing.

Didgerion · March 2016

Yeah, being the strongest player in the weakest faction will not be a thing anymore.

Guess you will have to improve your skills to be the best among the other faction's bests now....

Fetaro · March 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

The way I see it you have no idea whether in my argument I was a bad a good or an amazing player. Contrary to your logic I don't always consider the repercussions for myself first, but more for the community as a whole.

You said that amazing players will group together, and that the other players will have to do without them :

If cross faction leaderboards were to be a thing then all of the amazing players would group together and never have anyone to compete with and ruin it for the others who maybe are good players on their way to becoming amazing players.

Well, I missed the underscored part. But what I'll say will not be nice : what the hell is going on in your head ? What is this crappy logic ? Amazing players will play together, so nobody will have the chance to become amazing ? How did these amazing people become amazing ? They aren't born like that. They played a lot, trained hard, studied strategies, learnt from their many mistakes and to master their characters. They didn't rely on stronger than them, because there are nobody stronger than them. That's how they became and are amazing players. Do like them : stop whining, and work hard. (oh, btw I'm not part of these amazing people. I don't have the time nor the dedication to become one)

Tonnopesce · March 2016

I'm starting to be on your point @Nifty2g removing the leader-boards from the cross faction stuff will only benefit everyone because 300 spots for the reward are more than 100.
Told this i don't get why the Top guilds are worried about this, are you guys a guild or just random elite players that play in the same faction?

If someone like me who is in a "social pve guild" join the Exile or the Band of daggers for some organized pvp is excused to do so, since in a really small guild you cant have that type playstile, same for pve , if i join a top pve guild is only because my main guild cant even enter inside a trial instance.

But if i'm already into a top guild the only reason for me to join another guild is just that i don't care about it, and it can become a good occasion for those top guild to kick some players even if they are some "amazing" players.

timidobserver · March 2016

It is far from being critical to me, but I do agree that it is a problem.

hobicabobjob · March 2016

What's wrong with a fourth leaderboard, for multifaction?

Xjcon · March 2016

Why do I get the feeling the majority of people who are for this would be the same group stomping their feet about having to do "Their Enemy's Quests to get max level".

Whats also bad is that The OP will be one of those people drafted to the Allstars. So really he is trying to help the rest of the game not himself.

rokrdt05 · March 2016

I feel as though the reading comprehension is not a thing amongst the majority of the people reading this thread.

What @Nifty2g, @DisgracefulMind, @Woeler, @Alcast, and many others are trying to say in very simplistic terms...

We do not care that they are allowing cross factions trials.

We DO care that they are allowing cross faction trials to be included in the leaderboard scoring.

To keep from sounding like a broken record I'm not going to repeat all the points made, but I do agree that this is a very disappointing decision from @Zos to allow leaderboard scoring. I do hope that they revert their decision to allow this.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · March 2016

Why shouldn't friends from different alliances be able to compete for leaderboard places? If some of the top players would band together for that and backstab all the friends they got in the other guild they're in, then they're just not worth anything as people and you're just better off without them.

I mean, why are the leaderboards soooooo important that you want to keep other people from playing with people of other alliances? Being able to show off your E-peen to your fellow raiders? The gold reward each week? As otherwise I don't know why you'd care honestly.

Alcast · March 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Why shouldn't friends from different alliances be able to compete for leaderboard places? If some of the top players would band together for that and backstab all the friends they got in the other guild they're in, then they're just not worth anything as people and you're just better off without them.

I mean, why are the leaderboards soooooo important that you want to keep other people from playing with people of other alliances? Being able to show off your E-peen to your fellow raiders? The gold reward each week? As otherwise I don't know why you'd care honestly.

Ok lets allow cross faction pvp? Kappa

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · March 2016

Alcast wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Why shouldn't friends from different alliances be able to compete for leaderboard places? If some of the top players would band together for that and backstab all the friends they got in the other guild they're in, then they're just not worth anything as people and you're just better off without them.

I mean, why are the leaderboards soooooo important that you want to keep other people from playing with people of other alliances? Being able to show off your E-peen to your fellow raiders? The gold reward each week? As otherwise I don't know why you'd care honestly.

Ok lets allow cross faction pvp? Kappa

I'd be ok with that, I don't PvP myself tho. But if it meant that people could play with their friends, sure.

Bluepitbull13 · March 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Why shouldn't friends from different alliances be able to compete for leaderboard places? If some of the top players would band together for that and backstab all the friends they got in the other guild they're in, then they're just not worth anything as people and you're just better off without them.

I mean, why are the leaderboards soooooo important that you want to keep other people from playing with people of other alliances? Being able to show off your E-peen to your fellow raiders? The gold reward each week? As otherwise I don't know why you'd care honestly.

Ok lets allow cross faction pvp? Kappa

I'd be ok with that, I don't PvP myself tho. But if it meant that people could play with their friends, sure.

^ (sooooo much I want to say but don't want to get banned)

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · March 2016

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Why shouldn't friends from different alliances be able to compete for leaderboard places? If some of the top players would band together for that and backstab all the friends they got in the other guild they're in, then they're just not worth anything as people and you're just better off without them.

I mean, why are the leaderboards soooooo important that you want to keep other people from playing with people of other alliances? Being able to show off your E-peen to your fellow raiders? The gold reward each week? As otherwise I don't know why you'd care honestly.

Ok lets allow cross faction pvp? Kappa

I'd be ok with that, I don't PvP myself tho. But if it meant that people could play with their friends, sure.

That's me to the OP and all that whine about the same thing, lol.

Bluepitbull13 · March 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Why shouldn't friends from different alliances be able to compete for leaderboard places? If some of the top players would band together for that and backstab all the friends they got in the other guild they're in, then they're just not worth anything as people and you're just better off without them.

I mean, why are the leaderboards soooooo important that you want to keep other people from playing with people of other alliances? Being able to show off your E-peen to your fellow raiders? The gold reward each week? As otherwise I don't know why you'd care honestly.

Ok lets allow cross faction pvp? Kappa

I'd be ok with that, I don't PvP myself tho. But if it meant that people could play with their friends, sure.

That's me to the OP and all that whine about the same thing, lol.

you're replying to @Alcast about pvp (edited to prevent ban)

Nifty2g · March 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Why shouldn't friends from different alliances be able to compete for leaderboard places? If some of the top players would band together for that and backstab all the friends they got in the other guild they're in, then they're just not worth anything as people and you're just better off without them.

I mean, why are the leaderboards soooooo important that you want to keep other people from playing with people of other alliances? Being able to show off your E-peen to your fellow raiders? The gold reward each week? As otherwise I don't know why you'd care honestly.

Ok lets allow cross faction pvp? Kappa

I'd be ok with that, I don't PvP myself tho. But if it meant that people could play with their friends, sure.

That's me to the OP and all that whine about the same thing, lol.

Except its hard to get an opinion if you don't currently compete with the top scores - your argument is that you just want to play with friends, we don't mind that it's cool, but should it have a score attached to it, no we don't want that because that ruins all the competitiveness we've worked for.

End Game is made for the 1%ers, they come to us for advice and suggestions, we give it to them. So now they are turning around and slapping us with this sort of change, who does this directly affect? The people competing.

Does this affect you guys in the same way? No but I guess it's a cool thought to play with people from your trade guild and get some scores, but I don't understand they aren't competitive scores - so why should this change directly affect us who do care and going for it.

That is the main point of this argument.