[Cross Faction Trials] ZOS, I Personally Thank You For Ruining END GAME Competition

andy_s

As a member of TOP#1% BEST Russian Speaking EU PVE/PVP guild I like this change, because there are many russian players who could join one of our raids, because there are almost no good options for them on AD and DC sides these days...

Woeler

xAPxZeez wrote: »

I hate the leaderboards and wish they were completely removed from the game. They bring out the worst in people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw

Excuse me, I find the "remove stuff others like, but I don't use becuz I don't use it" attitude a little short-sighted. You don't HAVE TO join any top guild or play with them, but if the mere presence of people bothers you, well then, I pity you.

Legoless

Nifty2g wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Care to explain the problem? I dont see it.

No troll or so

Destroying lore

In no way does this affect lore. The alliances are at war, not plumbing dungeons. When you enter a trial, you do so as Undaunted.

Cuyler

Here's what I see as the issues here:

Players don't have to abandon their current "friends"/guilds for there to be a server wide super group to materialize. The reality is we have 5 guilds to join and there are currently no restrictions on staying with your current guild/friends (that I assume will no longer be competitive in this new meta) while at the same time joining up with your server's super group. That is unless we as players or ZOS put a restriction on it.

And I use quotes there because most people don't really know each other, but just met 2 months ago, know nothing about each other's personal lives, never seen each other's faces, and will quit in 2 months never to talk to each other again. Let's be realistic here as they have RL, babies, school, or whatever that comes up.

Eventually a server wide "super group" will form. It's inevitable, just a matter of time. We can attempt to slow the blow but if it can happen, it will happen. Just the nature of people and MMOs.

That super group will dominate the leaderboards, grabbing upon BiS weekly rewards I'm sure most of us want.

Anybody else who is interested in the rewards will HAVE to form a super group of their own to get these rewards.

At that point, Guilds are forced to make a difficult decision. Either pay homage to your friends/core and accept you won't be getting weekly rewards......or assimilate into the Borg (Star Trek ref, implied negative connotation). This my friends, @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_RichLambert , does not sounds like it's "in the spirit of ESO" to me. Actually it seems to be totally against everything ESO has strived to be.

At a minimum this under minds what current guilds have spent months/years building a foundation upon. At worst, it has the potential to destroy the current guilds/raiding community entirely. Risky business.

I personally feel that this puts any current guilds with loyal membership at a serious disadvantage seeing as significant time has been spent building our guilds based on the three faction system, forcing us to decide to remain non-competitive or to alienate our members. Without little warning, or time to prepare our members, this becomes very difficult to respond to vs those who would simply have an advantage of starting a new guild under the new meta.

In addition, I haven't yet decided if I would enjoy playing in this "Borg", conglomerate style meta your setting us up for. It doesn't sound much like something I'd enjoy even being apart of to be completely honest and that's coming from someone who has subbed since Beta, never taken a break and thought I'd be playing ESO until the servers were shut down. I do know I have enjoyed the three faction system and it promotes diverse competition. Is it really necessary to tear all of this down to move forward with CFT?

We have ADNA vs DCNA vs EPNA vs ADEU vs DCEU vs EPEU. Moving forward it'll simply be NA vs EU.

My suggestions, are (1) make an entirely new leaderboard for CFT or (2) make CFT ineligible for leaderboards and the associated rewards and offer a reward like you are doing with the group finder.

xAPxZeez

Woeler first if you read my post you would see I'm in a trial guild we use ABC trial teams. if you would have read the entire post instead of cutting out the part your trying to troll you would see we use the leaderboards so your statement about not using it is false and they DO bring out the worst in people. The entitled elitist attitude. I'm not saying our guild doesn't do it ourselves but you are delusional if you think you people trying to get the best leader board scores aren't.

The point of this thread is to bring concerns about cross faction leader board scores and you think it's good or bad. Not for you to belittle people based on their views. Please keep it focused where it belongs.

I typically don't respond to negative troll posts but yours was so far from accurate I decided to reply but I won't reply any further.

Cuyler

code65536 wrote: »

(2) Someone else in one of these threads mentioned that there is free agency in sports. A city's hockey team, for example, is ostensibly supposed to represent that city. But rarely would you find people on that team who are actually from that city. Or even from that country. Many of the people in US hockey teams are actually Canadians. Yet, despite players in many sports being able to float around, changing teams as they get more lucrative offers, there is still healthy competition in sports. Why would it be different here?

If I may I'd elaborate on the sports analogy...this IMO is the equivalent of the NFL's probowl, which is done once a year as a novelty. The Probowl is not the normal day to day games. Essentially this is like having the probowl all the time 24/7 where all the others players sit on the sidelines watching. There's a reason why National Sport's teams have salary caps as well, to stop this "super pro team" from developing and destroying normal day to day competition.

bikerangelo

To further emphasize the sports analogies;
In baseball there's the National League and the American League. Within those leagues you have the different teams (guilds). Every year the MLB has an all star game comprised of the best players from each league, but this does not contribute any form of scoring or rank to the normal season for each league.

This new trial scoring system will essentially remove the concept of teams (guilds) and reward the all star team's efforts. This is a disrespectful move from ZOS towards the guilds that have been built within the game based on faction pride. It's not elitist, it's based on the previous form of competition that's been prevalent through the majority of this game's lifetime.

Cross faction trials are fine, as well as cross faction vDSA or pledges, but an all star team has never played in the world series and it should stay that way.

Woeler

xAPxZeez wrote: »

Woeler first if you read my post you would see I'm in a trial guild we use ABC trial teams. if you would have read the entire post instead of cutting out the part your trying to troll you would see we use the leaderboards so your statement about not using it is false and they DO bring out the worst in people. The entitled elitist attitude. I'm not saying our guild doesn't do it ourselves but you are delusional if you think you people trying to get the best leader board scores aren't.

The point of this thread is to bring concerns about cross faction leader board scores and you think it's good or bad. Not for you to belittle people based on their views. Please keep it focused where it belongs.

I typically don't respond to negative troll posts but yours was so far from accurate I decided to reply but I won't reply any further.

I belittle your views because they are based on feelings, and not on an actual analysis of the situation. "Elitism" or "this guy is mean because he is number 1" is neither an argument nor a contributive comment. Certain people have been, are and will always be. [snip] That's a constant, whatever the outcome of this discussion may be, that will never change one bit.


[Edit for masking]

Bluepitbull13

Woeler wrote: »

xAPxZeez wrote: »

Woeler first if you read my post you would see I'm in a trial guild we use ABC trial teams. if you would have read the entire post instead of cutting out the part your trying to troll you would see we use the leaderboards so your statement about not using it is false and they DO bring out the worst in people. The entitled elitist attitude. I'm not saying our guild doesn't do it ourselves but you are delusional if you think you people trying to get the best leader board scores aren't.

The point of this thread is to bring concerns about cross faction leader board scores and you think it's good or bad. Not for you to belittle people based on their views. Please keep it focused where it belongs.

I typically don't respond to negative troll posts but yours was so far from accurate I decided to reply but I won't reply any further.

I belittle your views because they are based on feelings, and not on an actual analysis of the situation. "Elitism" or "this guy is mean because he is number 1" is neither an argument nor a contributive comment. Certain people have been, are and will always be. That's a constant, whatever the outcome of this discussion may be, that will never change one bit.

[Edit to remove quote]

xAPxZeez

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

We are opening this thread back up, but please keep in mind the Code of Conduct before continuing to argue off-topic. Remember - if someone baits you into an argument instead of constructive discussion, you may also end up being disciplined for flaming/bashing. There is great feedback here, but we want to make sure it doesn't devolve into personal arguments so it can stay open. Thanks!

Since some people can't be bothered to read page 6 of this thread.

WolfingHour

timidobserver wrote: »

WolfingHour wrote: »

@Nifty2g

I understand where you are coming from, however nowadays cant you just create a new toon in a different alliance and achieve the same result in a matter of days?

Nope. Alliance War and Undaunted skill lines will take most players more than a few days.

Fair enough, but the option is still there depending on how commited you are to run trails in another alliance.

I would repivot this issue by asking zos what do factions even mean anymore outside of Cyro.

EgoRush

Guys, guys, guys, relax. Even after cross faction you'll all still only be fighting for second place to an awesome EP-centric team

As for the lore, isn't the main story about bringing all the alliances together to fight Molag Bal? Therefore, now we're at end game content all the alliances are united and can work together on new threats such as The Mage/Warrior/Serpent, and now the Dro-m'Athra?

Kalebron

Enodoc wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

For cross-alliance grouping, they could just make it where the leaderboard does not count. And, if anyone has not noticed, they said it was a temporary thing.

It's only the fact that your alliance is auto-set to AD when in a group that's temporary. The cross-alliance grouping feature itself is here to stay.

A simple fix can be no leaderboard at all. I cannot possibly see how it would work to only post leaderboard status for just one person in a group setting. I think this will have to either be they post leaderboard for AD faction or they do not. I have no issues behind grouped up as an AD alliance for PVE. I also really don't care about the leaderboard.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

LOL at this thread. End game Raiding died when ZOS REFUSED to update Trials (and DSA) to V16 (with V16 gear) just to promote their DLC.

PvE Raiding guild have long since dried up and gone elsewhere due to this fact alone. The planned obsolescence of endgame activities is the worst trend to come out of the B2P era of this game.

Cross faction leaderboards are nothing compared to this.

Nifty2g

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

LOL at this thread. End game Raiding died when ZOS REFUSED to update Trials (and DSA) to V16 (with V16 gear) just to promote their DLC.

PvE Raiding guild have long since dried up and gone elsewhere due to this fact alone. The planned obsolescence of endgame activities is the worst trend to come out of the B2P era of this game.

Cross faction leaderboards are nothing compared to this.

Gotta give it to Zos, they know how to kill something

RinaldoGandolphi

@Yolokin_Swagonborn and @Nifty2g

Agree, i am not even a hardcore end game raider, but i can see major issues with this.

Allowing cross faction teams should be more of a courtesy(allowing them to get gear, a completion, reward etc), but allowing them on the leader board completely defeats the purpose of a 3 faction game.

It seems like end game PVE is being ruined much like how End game PVP is being ruined. ZOS refuses to upgrade any of the AP vendors in Cyrodiil with end game level gear. This has essentially made AP worthless and only useable for buying wall repair kits and siege. Everyone now and then you may buy an a motiff for someone, but other then that...blah...useless.

Then they create Tel Var Stones, a new currency, and its now useless in less then a year.

this planned obsolesce of gear is just ridiclious...All the Cadwell Gold and Silver zones, Craglorn, Trials, DSA, etc should all scale to the players level like Orsinium does, and drop Max level versions of gear. They don't have to lock gear behind a DLC and obsolete stuff to get people to buy it, just make good content and people will buy it..this isn't rocket science.

imagine VR16 versions of Soulshine, Warlock, Silks of the Sun, Syrabane, Archer's Mind, Healers Habit, etc...

Even the itemization has went so far down the drain since B2P, were all given so many less options...and now this...its just a shame overall

xAPxZeez

I see both sides to this. They want to make money so they make older stuff obsolete. If you make everything scale then what's the point of doing anything new if older gear is better.

I would rather everything scale to level then have something desire able from the new content to make you want to go there other than scrapping your old gear and getting a whole new set.

Maybe epic weapons where you gather mats from different trials and you craft them into a new weapon, same for armor.
You could even use the same IC mechanic except for 150 pieces you get a fragment piece of your weapon/armor.

You need 3 fragment pieces to make your weapon then to improve it you need that and 2 more fragments. This would give the illusion of working on something grander instead of just constantly replacing with something new.

Then each expansion you are upgrading your class weapon or armor in addition to anything new and people would continue to run older content for each character to get and improve their epic weapon.

Nifty2g

I'll put this here again

Cross-Faction grouping in trials. I don't care, be my guest.
Cross-Faction weekly rewards. I don't care, be my guest.
Cross-Faction overall leaderboards. No.

Everyone gets what they want with that, and it doesn't hurt one side of the game.

Personofsecrets

If you just assume that nobody wants cross-faction leader boards, then yes, your post is right.

Before we just assume that though, it may be a good idea to ask the developers as to why cross-faction leader boards are coming. Maybe they can't have cross-faction grouping without having the leader board attached to it, but maybe some people really do want cross-faction leader boards or perhaps the developers think that such leader boards are in the best interest for the long term health of the game.

Nifty2g

Personofsecrets wrote: »

If you just assume that nobody wants cross-faction leader boards, then yes, your post is right.

Before we just assume that though, it may be a good idea to ask the developers as to why cross-faction leader boards are coming. Maybe they can't have cross-faction grouping without having the leader board attached to it, but maybe some people really do want cross-faction leader boards or perhaps the developers think that such leader boards are in the best interest for the long term health of the game.

No one is saying no to cross faction trials. - i want it, it's cool
No one is saying no to cross faction trials for weekly scores - i want it, it's cool
The problem comes in when they affect overall scoring in the leaderboards - the top 100, where it actually matters.

ZOS have thrown this in for god knows what *** reason without even a hint that it was coming, they added it in at the last patch for the PTS and say deal with it.

Personofsecrets

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Yolokin_Swagonborn and @Nifty2g

Agree, i am not even a hardcore end game raider, but i can see major issues with this.

Allowing cross faction teams should be more of a courtesy(allowing them to get gear, a completion, reward etc), but allowing them on the leader board completely defeats the purpose of a 3 faction game.

It seems like end game PVE is being ruined much like how End game PVP is being ruined. ZOS refuses to upgrade any of the AP vendors in Cyrodiil with end game level gear. This has essentially made AP worthless and only useable for buying wall repair kits and siege. Everyone now and then you may buy an a motiff for someone, but other then that...blah...useless.

Then they create Tel Var Stones, a new currency, and its now useless in less then a year.

this planned obsolesce of gear is just ridiclious...All the Cadwell Gold and Silver zones, Craglorn, Trials, DSA, etc should all scale to the players level like Orsinium does, and drop Max level versions of gear. They don't have to lock gear behind a DLC and obsolete stuff to get people to buy it, just make good content and people will buy it..this isn't rocket science.

imagine VR16 versions of Soulshine, Warlock, Silks of the Sun, Syrabane, Archer's Mind, Healers Habit, etc...

Even the itemization has went so far down the drain since B2P, were all given so many less options...and now this...its just a shame overall

I hope that I developer reads this post. Itemization is really poor for the upcoming thieves guild. Sad.

Polysemy

I think most people in CSH are for this change, though I havnt polled them or anything but the way I see it is this.

Faction pride is a thing yes and its sad to see that gone, however I think guild pride > faction pride(or atleast it should be).

And if that isnt the case for some of the people in your guild then maybe they just arent the right people for your guild.

personally I have a friend in EP who doesnt want to raid with the guilds on EP and I want him to be able to raid competitively with my guild without having to reroll one of his toons... Yes you can argue that if someone wants to raid competively they can just reroll and I understand that point of view but its not simply "rerolling" is it? There is skill lines to level, crafting (which is extremely time consuming and expensive) and gear crafting etc etc

and now we can try and have him raid with us because he doesnt have to reroll a toon with max crafts etc

and honestly the darker side of my opinion.. if you cant keep your friends playing with you are they really your friends?

Another point to the example I gave is that him being EP we cant really play together so we dont really know if he will jive with my guild so asking him to reroll (for people he doesnt know is apart from all the other stuff) a hell of alot.

Of course this is just my personal opinion and everyone is entitled to their own but from the ZOS meeting I have attended it does not seem that ZOS is willing to budge on this.

EDIT: Whats to stop this meta group from being created even if scoring for CFT isnt there? Form the group see how it goes then reroll to the faction that will have the least people rerolling

xarguideb17_ESO

A whine thread pulled out of nothing.
Sometimes people just want to whine even about good things.

rokrdt05

xarguideb17_ESO wrote: »

A whine thread pulled out of nothing.
Sometimes people just want to whine even about good things.

A comment with absolutely no bearing on the topic.

Sometimes people just want to open their mouths.

Slayyer-AUS

CROSS FACTION RAIDING HELL YES!!! Thank you zos this is a great idea for resurrecting end game raiding. More raids the better imo and may the best players be on the top of the boards as it should be. A lot of people are leaving this game due to not being able to form a raid for trials so i think this is great and i am hyped. looking forward to raiding with you EP and DC guys

oh i forgot to add....gg wpn swap

Slayyer-AUS

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can we have cross server raiding to that would be awsome!

Woeler

Slayyer-AUS wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can we have cross server raiding to that would be awsome!

Dear lord no.

Polysemy wrote: »

and honestly the darker side of my opinion.. if you cant keep your friends playing with you are they really your friends?

If they so desperately want to raid on the other side, but don't want to grind a character (which can be done in +-32/33 hours playtime), do they really want to desperately raid on the other side? Seems to me like not.

omfgitsbatman

I'm in L2P
And honestly, I don't really see the big deal. Yeah, people will just try to form the ultimate 12 person team. This is what already happens on a smaller scale anyway. The top players in each faction are getting together to form the ultimate trials group. And honestly, there are way more than 12 people worthy of this group at least on EP, so there are quite a few other groups on EP that could compete with us if they choose to. There are at least 4 EP/NA guilds that could compete with L2P if the interest was there to run trials right now. Even inside a lot of the top guilds there is more than one group worth of people that could be competing.

There are some attitudes that will never mix. Bringing all of the top dps, and best raid leaders into one group smells like a recipe for disaster and drama to me. There are just some egos that are too big to be put into the same space with a similar sized ego. That being said, the top raid groups will undoubtedly be comprised of more than one faction. This is just using the broader spectrum of people available. You're much more likely to find people that will be compatible with your group from a larger pool of people. I still see competition happening, just among guilds and not factions.

_Chaos

Can't say I'm a huge fan, but I don't see why this would cause so much backlash and animosity. I'm just glad I have a reason to get back into PVE again. That being said, I'd love to keep cross faction times off the leaderboards, it's essentially just removing another dynamic of competition and we're already lacking that. End game is just getting so... blah.

Polysemy

Woeler wrote: »

Slayyer-AUS wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can we have cross server raiding to that would be awsome!

Dear lord no.

Polysemy wrote: »

and honestly the darker side of my opinion.. if you cant keep your friends playing with you are they really your friends?

If they so desperately want to raid on the other side, but don't want to grind a character (which can be done in +-32/33 hours playtime), do they really want to desperately raid on the other side? Seems to me like not.

Well I didnt say they desperately wanted to raid "on the other side" I was simply presenting a case study of sorts that would demonstrate the benefits of this new feature... its not a matter of wether or not someone wants to desperately raid... in my scenario I said that rerolling a toon to full crafting is an expensive, time consuming endevor and cant really be expected to be done if the intention is to play with people you dont even know (apart from me in the example) who you may not end up liking or get along with... so in summary I cant really ask someone to spend and waste gold and time to create a character that they may or may not end up playing... and if they dont end up playing it they will have yet another reroll in their future.

Dont get me wrong I understand your point completely but at the same time I can use it against you and say that these meta groups these guilds are so afraid of can easily be created i.e. "+/- 30-32 hours of playtime" why wouldnt I do that if I wanted to be apart of this "meta" group.

All in all its just an availibilty thing... my points are right and so are yours but in the end the problem you have is now its easier to ruin a weak guild but its also easier to create great ones and to bring people together and in my opinion that is the better thing

Its no longer EP v. DC v. AD its Guild v. Guild v. Guild and to be honest it was like that already just attached to specific alliances but now the guilds that struggle because it is extremely hard to have multiple competitive guilds on one faction... Atleast for NA, who's pop is much lower then EU, and now guilds like mine who sometimes have issues pulling people can boost our rosters with the people that are in situations like I described... the people that dont get on with the people in their factions and are punished for it more or less