Tanking, Healing and DPS inflation. Discuss

Inarre · February 2016

One must be careful in the balance. With less dps in dungeons the healer quickly becomes both the tank, healer and dps.

This is a pledge run i did on my healer at v6 in a pug group with weak dps. As consequence i was tanking the majority of the time and trying to dps while keeping everyone alive.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RnxNleUTpmA

xellink · February 2016

double roles are fine. Triple roles are acceptable but not preferred. quadruple roles... it destroys the point of specialisation, you are suppose to lose some effectiveness if you take on too many roles. People are starting to tank, deal damage, heal and battery all at once.

Takes-No-Prisoner · February 2016

Kozer wrote: »

This is partially why I love ESO. My DragonKnight can tank or dps at a moments notice.

I was in a situation where I meteored a DK who did a flappy flappy wing yesterday. It hit and bounced to me, hitting my block but hit another guy who almost died from it. I pop'ed a healing ward on him and fixed him up since I felt bad about my mistake. I love off healing at a moments notice. It saved his life.

tinythinker · February 2016

Something relevant I just shared in a different thread...

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Prior to 1.6, everyone could roll dodge a decent amount. Stam builds had an advantage, but players learned to regularly roll and block while avoiding red circles and such. Doing so gave ultimate points.

While you could stack a stat like spell power or max health, the diminishing returns from soft caps meant that there was more room to try different arrangements/play-styles, so there were many builds even though a few deemed the most powerful (a.k.a. robes, sword and board, resto staff) were very common. ZOS even used to feature different builds, though this started happening less often and hasn't been done since October 2015. Plus because thing like spell damage/weapon damage were blended in gear and in the stats for staffs, stacking in one area was even harder.

There were problems of course, like magicka builds perpetually block-casting, and pain-trains, etc, that people wanted to end. Some called for making it easier to stack a single type of damage, and some went further asking for the removal of soft caps. These changes would supposedly fix the problems players were concerned about then.

The result was 1.6/2.0, wherein lots of strengths were nerfed and you had to earn them back via Champ Points. But taking away the old caps and letting stats stack easier made damage skyrocket/TTK implode in PvP and allowed builds with features such as "infinite dodge-roll". That was great for Bow users in PvP, but the players #%$#ed about it so the solution was to nerf damage for everyone in PvP and nerf dodge-rolling for everyone in the game. That pattern - nerfing many or all players to try to "balance" what 1.6 unleashed - continues even now.

The imbalances created by 1.6 and the subsequent "fixes" (and "fixes of the fixes") have spread into skill lines of all types and other areas. DPS is king. Healers are somewhat necessary but shouldn't be allowed to impair the damage too much, and tanks are mostly needed in PvE for trials and *some* group dungeon bosses. Otherwise, just load up on DPS (and maybe a hybrid DPS/healer) and burn, baby, burn.

There was no balancing system like boons/banes included with the Champ Trees, nor a "getting strong over here makes you weaker over there" caveat. You just get more bad-ass in all areas the more Champ Points you get, so why not invest in damage done and damage mitigated? Just stand in the red and do insane damage and if you get a little low get topped off by a burst heal.

So what I would like to see when I say "Yes" to a return to pre-1.6:

- make damage stacking much more difficult and require sacrifice so that a pure DD is more dependent on players with other roles, a true glass cannon if you just want to stack damage over all else

- make healing/support more essential and varied, give more ways to buff/debuff and to keep allies alive; but this only works in concert with other changes, don't just make healing/support harder or more complicated in the current system

- make tanks more relevant again, make them stand out, make them the staunch warriors who still do much less damage but who lead the charge and help to control the battlefield via mitigation and extreme crowd control; make people fear getting close to tanks, not because a tank has lots of damage, but because they can lock you down until their allies arrive to finish you off

- encourage/allow MORE ROLES on the battlefield in PvP via new gear and skill lines

Thank for reading.
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Thal · February 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

I have said it before, and will say it again...the only way the devs are going to get this game right is by having separate PvP and PvE profiles so that they can make changes to skills and mechanics for one without effecting the other. This will also allow players to pick morphs for PvE and PvP separately as I know numerous tanks and healers that both PvE and PvP and are forced to take less optimal PvE morphs to be more viable in Pvp.

100% agree - it's like trying to two games at once. Scientific method of limiting variables and testing, revolutionary it seems

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Elloa wrote: »

Obviously in ESO, healing isn't only and exclusively about healing. I agree with that point. But when my healing get reduced to casting a Combat Prayer, more for the buff than the heal, and I spent my time casting Crushing Shock and light attack more than actually healing, well...I start to feel frustrated. Have I created a healer character to play it like I was doing a public Dungeon?
I want to be challenged! I want to see my tanks and DPS losing their life. I want to have to heal them. I want to be able to be perform again, my role as healer (not pure healer), not as a bad DPS that offheal when really *** happen.
.

But think about these newbies. If the game would be tuned up specifically for those who have 501+ cp, vr16 golden gear and months of experience, it will be unplayable for newbies and casuals. I prefer challenging content, but I still think that hard modes should be optional. The game used to be much harder, but it was nerfed because there were tons of complaints.
Btw, if you wanna see "see your tanks and DPS losing their life", you can try trials. Sanctum Ophidia, for example, is really fun and requires a lot of healing. Hel Ra hard mode can also be challenging for unexperienced groups. And a new trial is going to be interesting as well.
There's a lot of players in this game, and no one forces you to play with minmaxers if you dont enjoy this playstyle. Not to mention that minmaxers are the minority in this game.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

"KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

To offer an idea for making it challenging for DPS. Zenimax could design a mob that will calculate the amount of DPS it is taking from players, then apply a cap where if you exceed it (say cap is 50k DPS, and your group does 51k DPS): the monster will activate a massive AoE that kills everyone.

Arguing in chat who triggered this mob will surely make player's experience more enjoyable.
Imo, average dps shouldnt be punished (=content shouldnt be impossible for average groups), but high dps shouldnt be punished as well. There just should be mechanics that cant be skipped with high burst, that's it. But punishing players is a bad, bad idea.

Ahead of you on that one. I made sure I said group and not player. Right, bad idea to punish players but if you know the mechanic and still choose to ignore it. IMO, you should be punished. Kinda like those red circles, you know your not supposed to be in there. Anyway I was just offering a suggestion.

I'm sorry, but the example of mechanic you've offered is just absurd. Because:
-There's no group dps meter in this game, and without addons its impossible to tell how much damage you did. Yeah, theyre goin to add combat text, but can you imagine counting all the numbers while fighting?
-Dealing exact amount of damage is not possible for certain classes, for example, dk. Their damage relies on DoTs and you cant just "stop dpsing".
-You cant just remove ultimate from the ground if your teammate suddenly did more dmg than you expected. This will cause hostility and drama. "You triggered that mob and ruined our no-death run!", "No,that was you! Or the healer who was recharging mana with heavy attacks".
-Bad dps shouldnt be a "guaranteed win". People who put more effort in game should be able to do the content faster if they want to, and punishing them for being good in rotation and having good gear is really unfair. Of course, skipping mechanics is silly, but it can be prevented in a better manner. For example, there's a boss in vMA, Voriak Solkyn. At certain % of his health he teleports away, and becomes invincible while doing so, so even with highest dps possible you'll still need to perform required mechanic.

ral · February 2016

Back in the days when I first played this game. I would stand for almost an hour of my time asking to join a group to do pledges. I have a mag damage sorc. People ignored me and said they want healer or tank. Got so tired of that *** I created a Templar for healing, grind his ass up and finally got invited to groups more consistently. im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.

tinythinker · February 2016

ral wrote: »

im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.

If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?

ral · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

ral wrote: »

im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.

If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?

I'm coming from the perspective of a dps back in the days when people ignores dps and asks for healers or tanks. Unlike back in the days when you need a tank and healer. These days you don't have to. But can still run a dungeon smoothly with a healer and tank. Everyone can still play together now.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

ral wrote: »

im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.

If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?

Well, tanking role should be made viable in the first place. Healers are just magicka builds and can swap skills around for questing/soloing... While heavy armor has been nerfed to oblivion because of pvp balancing issues.
And lets be honest - that was a thing long before softcap removal. Its not like pre-1.6 game was a balanced perfection. There were "tanks" in light armor, godlike dks, gaining ulti with healing springs spam and other fun stuff. And those healers who hate supporting job seem to forget outhealing all those spell symmetries and dropping shards for tanks.
Besides, if you can do a dungeon with 3 dds doesnt mean it will be as pleasant as in normal group. It shoudlnt be ofc, but until issues with tanking are resolved, gimping dps would be pointless.
The problem is, almost all current content is nerfed multiple times and is terribly outdated. New dungeons and trial are not that easy

DaveMoeDee · February 2016

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I wish people would stop mentioning soft caps, because they have nothing to do with any of this. The fact is that ZOS has designed this game for DPS, with Tanks and Healers being minimized or even unneccessary. Bringing back soft caps won't change anything. For example, look at Veteran Maelstrom Arena. Gimping DPS in vMA isn't going to suddenly make it possible for Tank and Healer builds to complete.

What needs to happen is for the developers to reevaluate ALL content across the game and ask themselves if it's possible for players to heal or mitigate their way through that content... while doing modest damage, of course. In a lot of cases, Healers and Tanks are simply not viable for solo content, while they don't bring much to the table for group content, either.

They designed the content understanding that it needed to be challenging for DPS builds. That left non-dps builds in a difficult place. If they use caps to decrease DPS, they will also end up making content easier.

So soft caps are relevant.

It isn't like the vMA was received by ZOS on stone tablets. They designed it based on how powerful v16 characters are.

tinythinker · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

ral wrote: »

im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.

If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?

Well, tanking role should be made viable in the first place. Healers are just magicka builds and can swap skills around for questing/soloing... While heavy armor has been nerfed to oblivion because of pvp balancing issues.
And lets be honest - that was a thing long before softcap removal. Its not like pre-1.6 game was a balanced perfection. There were "tanks" in light armor, godlike dks, gaining ulti with healing springs spam and other fun stuff. And those healers who hate supporting job seem to forget outhealing all those spell symmetries and dropping shards for tanks.
Besides, if you can do a dungeon with 3 dds doesnt mean it will be as pleasant as in normal group. It shoudlnt be ofc, but until issues with tanking are resolved, gimping dps would be pointless.
The problem is, almost all current content is nerfed multiple times and is terribly outdated. New dungeons and trial are not that easy

I played a tank and a healer prior to 1.6, and it was much more important then. I'm not saying it was perfect or lacked room for improvement. Much of the content wasn't just directly nerfed, it was made obsolete by champion points. I identify that system as the bigger culprit in balancing issues. My suggestions involve simultaneously rebalancing all three roles, but the question remains whether ZOS has the ability and the desire to do so.

I don't have a problem with healers doing support and even adding in damage, it's the heavy dps-centric focus that makes it less fun for me, even when I run something with a damage dealer. As for tanking, I've written about that as well. But who knows what will actually happen?

tinythinker · February 2016

ral wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

ral wrote: »

im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.

If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?

I'm coming from the perspective of a dps back in the days when people ignores dps and asks for healers or tanks. Unlike back in the days when you need a tank and healer. These days you don't have to. But can still run a dungeon smoothly with a healer and tank. Everyone can still play together now.

You're coming from the perspective of a dps, period. That's fine. I'm glad you are having more fun.

But...

But you're basically saying that healers and tanks are optional and that's *why* you are more likely to get a spot faster now, even though "back in the day" it was normal to have 2 dps slots and 1 healer slot and 1 tank slot. That is, dps had twice the chance to get in a group if we just went by the way groups were ideally made.

The biggest problem for dps used to be (and often still is) that 90% of players listed themselves as dps and the group finder wanted to use a 2 dps/1 healer/1 tank formula. So, if you used that tool everyone took forever to get a group but tanks and healers were more rare so they got in first. If you had 20 damage dealers, 1 tank, and 2 healers queued for a dungeon, the tank would be added right away (100% chance), each healer had a 50% chance of getting added right away (and the other would get added as soon as another tank queued), and if you were one of the damage dealers you had a 10% chance of being added right away. So sure, your Sorc would take a lot longer even though half of the group slots were reserved for dps. The same was true if you advertised in /zone. The two dps slots filled up quick, and crown would keep advertising for a tank or healer to complete the group. So mostly what you saw in /zone was either "lf tank" or "lf healer".

What has changed is that, as per your own words, healers and tanks are much more optional, both in terms of the group finder selection criteria (which was recoded) as well as in the minds of players forming groups manually. Therefore, the group finder or the crown picking people can, if they choose, often skip a tank or take a damage dealer with a resto staff on the second bar to double as a healer. Again, it still translates into other roles being less important/valuable which means that now, 3 or even 4 group slots can go to dps for a dungeon (and similar changes can be made for some Craglorn trials using dps hybrids). That still amounts to taking the tank and/or healer slot and giving it to a dps. That's why *you* find it easier to get a group. It's not like extra slots were added per group. The dungeons still cap at 4 and trials at 12. The extra slots available to you come from someone else losing a slot. And that's why the "everyone can get accepted" comment makes no sense.

Any role could *always* get accepted, but the surplus of damage dealers meant that they had to compete more heavily for a slot. So it took longer to find a group. Dedicated healers and tanks can still get accepted, but the less important those roles become, the more time it will take for them to find a group. For newer players and those who don't run group content as often, this isn't a big problem yet, as they are likely to use the traditional formula of 2 dps/1 tank/1 healer. In fact, for those who still go by that formula, damage dealers still take longer to find a group and at times will even advertise as a healer or tank even though they can't do either role, which is so much fun to find out when you reach the first boss. But more competitive and experienced groups know exactly what they need to clear certain content and many times dedicated healers and tanks (i.e. non-hybrids) are considered a drag on the group's overall damage and how fast they can clear something.

In any case, Elloa's point, that many have echoed and expanded on, is that that healers are increasingly expected to spend most of their times casting buffs/debuff when not actually doing damage themselves and heal when necessary. And I would add that tanks in high end content are often expected to be dps/tanks or healer/tanks, if a tank is taken at all, and such hybrids are propped up by the (Templar) healer keeping them going with burst heals and a constant rain of shards. Such content has been more and more about doing dps to burn through everything because of the changes made from 1.6 onward and less about learning mechanics and relying on those dedicated to various group roles in order to complete content. The new trial for Thieve's Guild is intended to make dedicated tanks (i.e. focus on holding aggro and mitigating massive amounts of damage first, everything else secondary) and healers (i.e. focus on shielding and healing first, buffs/debuffs second, damage last) more valuable again, but that doesn't change the way many people now play a good deal of the existing veteran content.

Just because some groups want or will accept dedicated tanks and healers in some high end content doesn't alter how the game has been changing or the fact that not everyone wants to focus on helping to max out the dps of the group. They actually want healers and tanks to be essential in completing group content because they like performing those roles and having those roles matter. Making those roles optional or diluting them may help damage dealers get groups a little faster but some folks want to have more balance among the roles.

To clarify, I am not worried about healers and tanks never getting groups, nor am I against people trying to pull off high end content with hybrids and stacking more damage dealers. But that should be something extraordinary to pull off after a good deal of practice and requiring expert precision, even after you've seen a Youtube video of it being done. The most reliable way, the way that even a sizeable number of experienced players would prefer to run it, should still emphasize mechanics over quick burns.

jzholloway · February 2016

Vox wrote: »

GeertKarel wrote: »

healing is way more rewarding if you can keep your damage dealers up with resources.. its really not that hard. I find it frustrating that healers only want to heal because most of the time you don't even need to heal and maybe 1 healing spring per 30 seconds, that is quite boring to be honest.

I don't think this is a valid point because in pretty much all MMO's I have ever played, keeping the other party members resources up (spear, orbs) is common sense for the healing role. 'Healing' doesn't just mean restoring health, it includes dispelling and giving resources to the party.

So whoever you're talking about who just heals and doesn't give resources is not playing the role to it's full potential.

Excellent rebuttal! Tanking doesn't just mean being a sponge - it means positioning bosses and adds, keeping aggro at the right moments, buffing both them self and the dps around them, canceling the boss, etc. Healers heal but also buff and debuff, cleanse, etc. Personally, I love tanking - and yes, I could change my build around to do more dps but then I wouldn't be a tank, or at least not a very effective one. Of course, i am an "old-school" mmo player, so maybe that is my problem - however, it is always fun when I am the one left alive when everyone is dead and because of how my build is setup, I can usually resurrect dead teammates - then again, maybe if I was a strong 4k plus dps we wouldn't have had that problem in the first place.

frethopper · February 2016

I love the tanking role, always have. My build has evolved over the last couple 18 months and is now highly defensive. Over that period I've taken several big hits from updates. I can understand why people gravitate to DPS. There is little to commend builds of the type that I favour. They don't dish out much damage, but nor do they have the ability to stay in fights much longer than those who deal higher damage. The equation seems simple, at least in my eyes. You either do a lot of damage in a small space of time, and risk succumbing to damage, or you do little damage and have the ability to take damage, thereby staying in fights for longer. Oddly, the game doesn't seem to reproduce this equation very well any more. ZOS could afford to give defensive abilities some love, and as long as they don't go overboard, I can only see positives in doing so.

This is slightly off topic, but I can't escape the feeling that in general, the game makes fights too fast. The tactical element is being blunted, which again favours high DPS, where tactical concerns are perhaps not quite as relevant.

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

Something relevant I just shared in a different thread...

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Prior to 1.6, everyone could roll dodge a decent amount. Stam builds had an advantage, but players learned to regularly roll and block while avoiding red circles and such. Doing so gave ultimate points.

While you could stack a stat like spell power or max health, the diminishing returns from soft caps meant that there was more room to try different arrangements/play-styles, so there were many builds even though a few deemed the most powerful (a.k.a. robes, sword and board, resto staff) were very common. ZOS even used to feature different builds, though this started happening less often and hasn't been done since October 2015. Plus because thing like spell damage/weapon damage were blended in gear and in the stats for staffs, stacking in one area was even harder.

There were problems of course, like magicka builds perpetually block-casting, and pain-trains, etc, that people wanted to end. Some called for making it easier to stack a single type of damage, and some went further asking for the removal of soft caps. These changes would supposedly fix the problems players were concerned about then.

The result was 1.6/2.0, wherein lots of strengths were nerfed and you had to earn them back via Champ Points. But taking away the old caps and letting stats stack easier made damage skyrocket/TTK implode in PvP and allowed builds with features such as "infinite dodge-roll". That was great for Bow users in PvP, but the players #%$#ed about it so the solution was to nerf damage for everyone in PvP and nerf dodge-rolling for everyone in the game. That pattern - nerfing many or all players to try to "balance" what 1.6 unleashed - continues even now.

The imbalances created by 1.6 and the subsequent "fixes" (and "fixes of the fixes") have spread into skill lines of all types and other areas. DPS is king. Healers are somewhat necessary but shouldn't be allowed to impair the damage too much, and tanks are mostly needed in PvE for trials and *some* group dungeon bosses. Otherwise, just load up on DPS (and maybe a hybrid DPS/healer) and burn, baby, burn.

There was no balancing system like boons/banes included with the Champ Trees, nor a "getting strong over here makes you weaker over there" caveat. You just get more bad-ass in all areas the more Champ Points you get, so why not invest in damage done and damage mitigated? Just stand in the red and do insane damage and if you get a little low get topped off by a burst heal.

So what I would like to see when I say "Yes" to a return to pre-1.6:

- make damage stacking much more difficult and require sacrifice so that a pure DD is more dependent on players with other roles, a true glass cannon if you just want to stack damage over all else

- make healing/support more essential and varied, give more ways to buff/debuff and to keep allies alive; but this only works in concert with other changes, don't just make healing/support harder or more complicated in the current system

- make tanks more relevant again, make them stand out, make them the staunch warriors who still do much less damage but who lead the charge and help to control the battlefield via mitigation and extreme crowd control; make people fear getting close to tanks, not because a tank has lots of damage, but because they can lock you down until their allies arrive to finish you off

- encourage/allow MORE ROLES on the battlefield in PvP via new gear and skill lines

Thank for reading.
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Amen to that written in big letters.

After many situations in which my favorite toon and role (tank) was not needed in many runs and ppl telling me to change my tank dk to dps because tanks are " meh" I have not logged in in almost 3 months.Keep comming to forums everyday to see any topics like this one and see if ZOS is aware and are working in a way to make the trinity important again.But i dont see them even " lurking" around.An open costumization MMO where DPS is the only thing that matter is a very bad desing.ZOS what have you done with the game I used to love more than any other?

Elloa · February 2016

ral wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

ral wrote: »

im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.

If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?

I'm coming from the perspective of a dps back in the days when people ignores dps and asks for healers or tanks. Unlike back in the days when you need a tank and healer. These days you don't have to. But can still run a dungeon smoothly with a healer and tank. Everyone can still play together now.

Except that if you have nothing to heal, or nothing to tank, you end being pretty much bored as Healer/Tank.

Its hard to have fun, when you are not needed. You need to understand the mindset of healers and tanks. Players that enjoy those roles, enjoy it cause they like to contribute to the teamwork, they like to play "saviour of some sorts", "protectors" when the DPS is too high, strategies are obselete, tanks and healers have nothing to save anymore. Which is not fun.

But I understand than DPS players that only enjoy DPSing don't really get how frustrating it is. There is a reason why many healers and tank don't like DPSing. Its a different way to perceive the game.

Cuyler · February 2016

Elloa wrote: »

when the DPS is too high, strategies are obselete, tanks and healers have nothing to save anymore. Which is not fun.

Elloa wrote: »

the average player is not capable of doing THAT much damage.

I agree!

#Don'tnerfmehbruh

Cuyler · February 2016

dbl post

tinythinker · February 2016

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

- make damage stacking much more difficult and require sacrifice so that a pure DD is more dependent on players with other roles, a true glass cannon if you just want to stack damage over all else

- make healing/support more essential and varied, give more ways to buff/debuff and to keep allies alive; but this only works in concert with other changes, don't just make healing/support harder or more complicated in the current system

- make tanks more relevant again, make them stand out, make them the staunch warriors who still do much less damage but who lead the charge and help to control the battlefield via mitigation and extreme crowd control; make people fear getting close to tanks, not because a tank has lots of damage, but because they can lock you down until their allies arrive to finish you off

- encourage/allow MORE ROLES on the battlefield in PvP via new gear and skill lines

Thank for reading.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Amen to that written in big letters.

After many situations in which my favorite toon and role (tank) was not needed in many runs and ppl telling me to change my tank dk to dps because tanks are " meh" I have not logged in in almost 3 months.Keep comming to forums everyday to see any topics like this one and see if ZOS is aware and are working in a way to make the trinity important again.But i dont see them even " lurking" around.An open costumization MMO where DPS is the only thing that matter is a very bad desing.ZOS what have you done with the game I used to love more than any other?

If you haven't seen it yet you might want to share your thoughts in this recent thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248921/official-tanking-feedback-thread

caperon · February 2016

Elloa wrote: »

ral wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

ral wrote: »

im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.

If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?

I'm coming from the perspective of a dps back in the days when people ignores dps and asks for healers or tanks. Unlike back in the days when you need a tank and healer. These days you don't have to. But can still run a dungeon smoothly with a healer and tank. Everyone can still play together now.

Except that if you have nothing to heal, or nothing to tank, you end being pretty much bored as Healer/Tank. Its hard to have fun, when you are not needed. You need to understand the mindset of healers and tanks. Players that enjoy those roles, enjoy it cause they like to contribute to the teamwork, they like to play "saviour of some sorts", "protectors" when the DPS is too high, strategies are obselete, tanks and healers have nothing to save anymore. Which is not fun.

One of the coolest mechanics this game has in pve is when the last boss in ICP shots the "machine gun" atack randomly and the tank must move to bodyblock the projectiles. I imagine myself screaming "Stand behind me!" and i feel so mighty protecting my teammates

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · March 2016

If anything, a broad open toon costumization system like ESO have ,should have brought an aditional role to the table,like a controller for example.But no,on the contrary,with bad desicions it all went down to just one role being important.

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · March 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

- make damage stacking much more difficult and require sacrifice so that a pure DD is more dependent on players with other roles, a true glass cannon if you just want to stack damage over all else

- make healing/support more essential and varied, give more ways to buff/debuff and to keep allies alive; but this only works in concert with other changes, don't just make healing/support harder or more complicated in the current system

- make tanks more relevant again, make them stand out, make them the staunch warriors who still do much less damage but who lead the charge and help to control the battlefield via mitigation and extreme crowd control; make people fear getting close to tanks, not because a tank has lots of damage, but because they can lock you down until their allies arrive to finish you off

- encourage/allow MORE ROLES on the battlefield in PvP via new gear and skill lines

Thank for reading.
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Amen to that written in big letters.

After many situations in which my favorite toon and role (tank) was not needed in many runs and ppl telling me to change my tank dk to dps because tanks are " meh" I have not logged in in almost 3 months.Keep comming to forums everyday to see any topics like this one and see if ZOS is aware and are working in a way to make the trinity important again.But i dont see them even " lurking" around.An open costumization MMO where DPS is the only thing that matter is a very bad desing.ZOS what have you done with the game I used to love more than any other?

If you haven't seen it yet you might want to share your thoughts in this recent thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248921/official-tanking-feedback-thread

Thanks,didnt knew

me_ming · March 2016

Elloa wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

(...)
We all have different play-styles, but it doesn't mean that just because we have a clear understanding of how we play that we close our minds to other forms of play-style. To OP, I'm sure you're pretty good at what you're doing and/or your role, and I get it, damage in this game (even with all it's "nerfs") is quite insane, especially in PvE. And as much as I agree that roles outside DPS is worrisome, if you think that the healing role is only to save someone from eminent death, and that you are being "reduced" as someone who only provides resources, etc, then I believe it's an issue with your play-style. Not necessarily a lot of healers/tanks.

It's certainly not related to only my playstyle, considering the amount of persons that have agreed with what i've said. And I know for having discussed with enough poeple that it's actually a frustration from many healers and tanks.

Obviously in ESO, healing isn't only and exclusively about healing. I agree with that point. But when my healing get reduced to casting a Combat Prayer, more for the buff than the heal, and I spent my time casting Crushing Shock and light attack more than actually healing, well...I start to feel frustrated. Have I created a healer character to play it like I was doing a public Dungeon?
I want to be challenged! I want to see my tanks and DPS losing their life. I want to have to heal them. I want to be able to be perform again, my role as healer (not pure healer), not as a bad DPS that offheal when really *** happen.

Hence the reason why I prefer to play with newbie players that are actually not doing enough damage to make all fights trivial. Hence why I prefer to explore my healing capabilities with a lowbie Dragonknight healer, and see what I can do with that one.
My Templar is now retired and get in Dungeons only when my guild needs me.

So yeah, actually I'm saying that it's more fun to play with unexperimented, not optimised players. At least I DO. Played with (nice) pro-players, and it's actually not very fun. (This is not related to their attitude as they were friendly)

.

Well, so far there are about 40-41-ish you who "Agreed", "Awesome" and "Insightful" your post. I'm not sure why you consider that as "a lot", when there are thousands of people who play ESO-- across all servers and formats. Not trying to be offensive just trying to be objective. Maybe you should have started a poll instead, so we can actually determine how many healers/tank who are in agreement to this (just a suggestion).

Anyways, back to your point, I think then that we have very different ideas of what a healer should be. I would never want to see my teammates's health drop (not that it doesn't). Like I said in my post, I would rather want to do preventive measures than doing the actual cure. To me that is what is more challenging. Personally, I don't find it challenging to just heal, like what you want to do. Because as I said, I'd just be have BoL or healing springs on my bar and spam the hell out of it. Wait, isn't it why they are nerfing BoL?

I play with pugs most of the time. I don't have pro-player friends, like you do, but I have played with really good players before who rarely needs my healing, so I do more DPS, more debuffing targets, buffing allies, shields, etc-- to me, I don't only optimized my tank and DPS-es but I also optimized myself, as a healer. Frankly, I enjoy playing with either groups of people.

Lastly, I am not telling you how to play your game, it's yours to enjoy. Just saying there is more to it than how you (currently) perceive it. Maybe if you open your mind to other things then maybe you can do even greater things than just "healing". Juuuust saying.

SlayerTheDragon · March 2016

ZoS needs to encourage PUGs much much more. This will give everyone a challenge and allow the experienced players to teach the new ones.

A V16 scaled normal PUG can be far more difficult than a vet guild run, and it should be rewarded as such.

Trust me, healing a PUG is insane at this moment. It is proper higher grade trying to keep the noobs alive. But once I tell them how block works, or moving out of the red, or to slot something other than Werewolf for their ultimate, it slowly comes together.

Dubhliam · March 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

... For example, there's a boss in vMA, Voriak Solkyn. At certain % of his health he teleports away, and becomes invincible while doing so, so even with highest dps possible you'll still need to perform required mechanic.

Not true.
The boss is not killable until you destroy all three pillars around the room. At that time a timer starts until the pillars are back up, it is not correlated with the boss' max health. With high dps it is possible to kill the boss before the pillars get back up.
That boss fight is another example of a skippable mechanic with high burst damage.

Another example of skippable mechanics is the one I hate most.
Ibomez the Flesh Sculptor.
That boss has one of the most unique mechaninc to beat it, similar to the Planar Inhibitor.
The only difference is that while people spent countless hours perfecting the Planar tactic, only 0.1% of the playerbase ever finished Ibomez without bursting him out. And that is only guessing, I would not know since I never finished him without bursting.

That is just poor design, IMO.

As most of the players here agree, a lot of these issues are a direct consequence of outdated content that is too easy for modern veteran players.
But vICP is the hardest 4-man content IMO, and yet it has a perfect example of mechanic outbursting.

A solution that I see is that damage need inevitable nerfs. I know people fear nerfing, nobody likes their candy being taken away from them.
The devs already mentioned they are looking into de-correlating resources with damage.
I completely agree. The least they can do is halve the damage from max resource, if not removing completely.
Casual players don't have more than 25k resource anyway, while elites never have under 40k so I guess it would not impact casuals that much.

Elloa · March 2016

me_ming wrote: »

Anyways, back to your point, I think then that we have very different ideas of what a healer should be. I would never want to see my teammates's health drop (not that it doesn't). Like I said in my post, I would rather want to do preventive measures than doing the actual cure. To me that is what is more challenging. Personally, I don't find it challenging to just heal, like what you want to do. Because as I said, I'd just be have BoL or healing springs on my bar and spam the hell out of it. Wait, isn't it why they are nerfing BoL?

I play with pugs most of the time. I don't have pro-player friends, like you do, but I have played with really good players before who rarely needs my healing, so I do more DPS, more debuffing targets, buffing allies, shields, etc-- to me, I don't only optimized my tank and DPS-es but I also optimized myself, as a healer. Frankly, I enjoy playing with either groups of people.

Lastly, I am not telling you how to play your game, it's yours to enjoy. Just saying there is more to it than how you (currently) perceive it. Maybe if you open your mind to other things then maybe you can do even greater things than just "healing". Juuuust saying.

There is little misunderstood here, though

I've not said that I want to EXCLUSIVELY heal. I've said that I want to PRIMARILY Heal. If you see the subtile difference. I want to need to use my healing spells, I want to need to choose which healing spell I'm using and yes, not spaming BOL (which I never did, even if it was the easy way, but it's indeed boring). I'm all in favour of having a bit of variety in the role of healer-support, and to do some damage in certain phase (like Molag Kena), to help with controls (like in DragonStar Arena), or even OFFTANK with my Ward Ally shield and blocking...all that kind of extra stuff is FUN. But i wish to have the possibility to shine as healer.
I know I can have my doses of heal in other games like World of Warcraft or FFXIV, but come on! The Combat in ESO is so much more fun and interesting, and as healer, it's really fun to have to target your target to heal him/her. I'd be very sad if ESO were getting away from the holy trinity and not proposing a solution to control the insane damage going on. Simple mechanic with bosses phase could provide that and ensure players can not just burst down the bosses without paying attention to what's going on. And that would help to make the healing role and taking roles being relevant once more.

.

LadyNalcarya · March 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

... For example, there's a boss in vMA, Voriak Solkyn. At certain % of his health he teleports away, and becomes invincible while doing so, so even with highest dps possible you'll still need to perform required mechanic.

Not true.
The boss is not killable until you destroy all three pillars around the room. At that time a timer starts until the pillars are back up, it is not correlated with the boss' max health. With high dps it is possible to kill the boss before the pillars get back up.
That boss fight is another example of a skippable mechanic with high burst damage.

No, I mean the first part. I dont see how its possible to kill him without teleporting upstairs, so no skipping mecahnics in this case. If it is possible without any kind of exploits, I'd like to see a video.
I didnt know it was possible to get 2 crystal phases though. I've never seen that. o.O
And anyways... Mechanics on this boss are unskippable. He teleports upstairs no matter what, he will enrage if he eats 3 golden ghosts etc.
Ibomex mechanics are skippable though, since you can just ignore the grenades. But you cant kill Solkyn without him teleporting upstairs.

Gonza · March 2016

Im so agree with you, i prefer to run dungeons with people that doesnt know what to do!
Now i can solo silver dungeons and tank without heavy armors/shield most of the veteran dungeons. The game is not requiring that role.

People thinks that if you are not pulling 20k+ dps you are a noob.

caperon · March 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

... For example, there's a boss in vMA, Voriak Solkyn. At certain % of his health he teleports away, and becomes invincible while doing so, so even with highest dps possible you'll still need to perform required mechanic.

Not true.
The boss is not killable until you destroy all three pillars around the room. At that time a timer starts until the pillars are back up, it is not correlated with the boss' max health. With high dps it is possible to kill the boss before the pillars get back up.
That boss fight is another example of a skippable mechanic with high burst damage.

No, I mean the first part. I dont see how its possible to kill him without teleporting upstairs, so no skipping mecahnics in this case. If it is possible without any kind of exploits, I'd like to see a video.
I didnt know it was possible to get 2 crystal phases though. I've never seen that. o.O
And anyways... Mechanics on this boss are unskippable. He teleports upstairs no matter what, he will enrage if he eats 3 golden ghosts etc.
Ibomex mechanics are skippable though, since you can just ignore the grenades. But you cant kill Solkyn without him teleporting upstairs.

You are talking about diferent bosses i think. You talk about last maelstrom boss and Dubhlian about the stage 8 boss. In that stage i gueess a sorcerer can overload his ass after killing the 3 pillars once, skipping the rest of the boss phases.