Tanking, Healing and DPS inflation. Discuss

BalticBlues

DHale wrote: »

have to disagree with you Elloa [...] pug groups don't put out a lot of damage they run out of magic constantly, they don't know boss mechanics. Healers can't keep up with the demand. Spending 2 hours running a dungeon that I can run with my guildies in 20 minutes is NOT fun. Getting hit with 30 k hits when I have 15 k health is not fun. There is no healer in our game that can heal that. Pug tanks don't grab everyone. When I heal I can get so much aggro I literally run around in circles healing with pug tanks. Pugs stand in red pugs don't dodge roll and now don't block. Wiping on bosses 5 6 7 tines is not fun. That doesn't happen with guildies or ppl in team speak. The avg ESO player doesn't have that. I have met dozens of player who have not successfully completed one veteran dungeon. You say it's to fast too much damage but it's the opposite for a lot of ppl.

And this is exactly what Elloa says if you listen/read carefully.

She says that PvE group content is becoming boringly easy for high dps veterans.
Many DPS builds with high self-sustain do not even need a healer/tank anymore.

However, PvE group content becomes a challenge again if you heal for lower ranks and PUGs. Therefore, many of us healers now run with lower ranks and PUGs to find a challenge and fun.

What I take from this: Unfortunately, ZOS does not address the balance problems of high dps builds at all, leading to nuking PvE bosses down in seconds and to nuking PvP players from stealth in a second. ZOS nerfs healing instead, which even increases the class imbalances and finally may ruin the only PvE content that is a challenge for healers (running with lower ranks and PUGs) which could be getting from very difficult (as you explained above) to impossible.

Joy_Division

OP is 100% correct.

Before 1.6 update, healers actually had to heal and you needed a tank for the veteran dungeons. The bosses were actually challenging enough that you couldn't just out-DPS the mechanics. Every role had to occasionally do something to self-sustain (DPS, block, etc). It was pretty fun.

Now I don't even know why people type "LF2M: tank + DPS." As a "healer," I spent 85% of my time DPSing and feeding low sustain DPS builds resources and I can do the tank's job simply by throwing a taunt on my bar. The dungeons are so trivial now. Crypt of Hearts used to be a legit challenge. Now even the final boss just melts.

People just blame CPs for every problem in the game, but the majority of player power and DPS is arrived outside of the CP system The game is what it is because the new regime and specifically the combat team have consistently changed the game so that Tanking is more difficult/tedious (stam regen penalty, uninspiring heavy armor, etc) and DPS is much easier/higher (removal of softcaps, tailoring gear to high spell/weapon damage). Coupled with the making PvE content easier despite increase in player power (watch videos of Praxin fight in Spindclutch before 1.6 and compare to now), dungeons are just a facerolling DPS contest now.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DPS has gotten so high that @Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_RichLambert had to severely nerf damage in PVP as though there STILL ARE soft caps. They reintroduced soft caps, in a sense, with the battle spirit debuff.

It turns out that tanky players would be benefited in a greater way and disproportionately to the more DPS focused players in PVP if the battle spirit debuff happened by itself with no changes to tanky players and that, in my opinion, is why we ended up with the stamina regeneration nerf. Of course now that we have had time to grow again, people are back to getting one and two shot in Cyrodiil.

Power creep and the champion point system have had tremendous consequences on the game. Tanks, healers, PVP, and especially PVE are paying the price for these advances in DPS power.

Agreed. The fact that the Battle Spirit debuffs even exist is a sign that damage capability is way too high.

Humatiel

I don't watch many of the Q&A so I may be way out in left field here, but between the stamina nerf when blocking and the new changes to healing have we considered that ZoS may not want multiple roles in dungeons? Viewing the changes from that light makes them make a lot more sense.

LadyNalcarya

Well... While there is an issue with full-tanks and full-healers being left behind (vMA for example), the gap between average/casual dds is really huge.
I did healer-less runs of vICP and vWGT etc, but I dont see this happening with average pug (in that case you're lucky if you get past the 2nd boss). Veteran content in this game has been nerfed a lot of times simply because it was "too hard" for casuals. Most of players on these forums are active and dedicated players, even if they prefer more casual approach. This is why replies like "I have golden vr16 gear" and "I have 300+ cps" are prevalent in polls. I pug pretty often and very few random groups are capable of facerolling dungeons with 3-4 dds (except the easiest ones, like Wayrest or Elden Hollow). From my experience, average dd pulls 10-15k, and this is not enough to ignore all the mechanics. Even if they're sorcs/nbs... I saw enough sorcs who couldnt achieve 20k dps.
The content has been nerfed because it was too demanding for the playerbase apparently. I dont really know how to fix it, but the new trial seems promising (and it has normal mode for casual players, which is fair). Reducing dps wont be a solution, because it would hit casual playerbase, not only minmaxers who faceroll the content.

From my perspective as a tank and (former) healer... I really hate just standing in a house and spamming heals, and support/off-dps playstyle is much more fun imo. I really hated healing trials because it was just a heal spam fest, nothing really challenging when you had good gear to afford that spam. And really loved DSA speedruns for more active playstyle... So I dont think that healing changs are bad. Forcing healers to spam 1 button is super boring in my opinion.
Tanking on the other hand... Those pvp-inspired nerfs just crippled "tank" archetype. Tanks are not that tanky anymore, and tanking is not a viable playstyle outside dungeons. A healer is basically a normal magicka build and can be easily swapped to dd for vMA/leveling/questing and tank would require complete respec and gear change. Personofsecrets has a very insightful thread about tanking problems on pts forums.

Emma_Overload

I wish people would stop mentioning soft caps, because they have nothing to do with any of this. The fact is that ZOS has designed this game for DPS, with Tanks and Healers being minimized or even unneccessary. Bringing back soft caps won't change anything. For example, look at Veteran Maelstrom Arena. Gimping DPS in vMA isn't going to suddenly make it possible for Tank and Healer builds to complete.

What needs to happen is for the developers to reevaluate ALL content across the game and ask themselves if it's possible for players to heal or mitigate their way through that content... while doing modest damage, of course. In a lot of cases, Healers and Tanks are simply not viable for solo content, while they don't bring much to the table for group content, either.

LadyNalcarya

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I wish people would stop mentioning soft caps, because they have nothing to do with any of this. The fact is that ZOS has designed this game for DPS, with Tanks and Healers being minimized or even unneccessary. Bringing back soft caps won't change anything. For example, look at Veteran Maelstrom Arena. Gimping DPS in vMA isn't going to suddenly make it possible for Tank and Healer builds to complete.

What needs to happen is for the developers to reevaluate ALL content across the game and ask themselves if it's possible for players to heal or mitigate their way through that content... while doing modest damage, of course. In a lot of cases, Healers and Tanks are simply not viable for solo content, while they don't bring much to the table of group content, either.

Its more about game design imo. When there's a boss that makes a full-time tank a liability for his team (planar inhibitor) and a solo arena with heavy dps bias, thing will not change.
So I have high hopes for the new trial.

Artjuh90

funny fact she called healer being support and call 2 templar abilty's and a destruction staff abilty. meaning all healers don't have use unless you are a templar

Artjuh90

caperon wrote: »

oibam wrote: »

On PTS in Imperial City without CP: content is really hard.

So i think, the CP System is too strong.

CP system is the worst idea ZOS had followed by the dmg scalling based on resource pools. They slowly but surely are killing their own game. Is like the people who designed and programed it are different from the ones who are managing it. Is the game better? Not for me.

not to forget the honourable mention to remove softcaps

dodgehopper_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DPS has gotten so high that @Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_RichLambert had to severely nerf damage in PVP as though there STILL ARE soft caps. They reintroduced soft caps, in a sense, with the battle spirit debuff.

It turns out that tanky players would be benefited in a greater way and disproportionately to the more DPS focused players in PVP if the battle spirit debuff happened by itself with no changes to tanky players and that, in my opinion, is why we ended up with the stamina regeneration nerf. Of course now that we have had time to grow again, people are back to getting one and two shot in Cyrodiil.

Power creep and the champion point system have had tremendous consequences on the game. Tanks, healers, PVP, and especially PVE are paying the price for these advances in DPS power.

I really wish they'd go back to the system with 'overcharged' stats. What's their big hang up?

LadyNalcarya

And yeah, I dont think that nerfing characters is a solution... It would just make a life of a pug tank/healer harder. Introducing new content that cannot be facerolled with 4 dds will be much better.

Elloa

Artjuh90 wrote: »

funny fact she called healer being support and call 2 templar abilty's and a destruction staff abilty. meaning all healers don't have use unless you are a templar

Many poeple assume that you must be Templar to be a healer. And therefor ask you to use Repentence, or Shard, and whatnot.
Which is why I'm leveling a new healer Dragonknight. I want to explore all classes as healer eventually. It is not fair than only Templar get to be considered as proper healer.

Elloa

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

(...)
The content has been nerfed because it was too demanding for the playerbase apparently. I dont really know how to fix it, but the new trial seems promising (and it has normal mode for casual players, which is fair). Reducing dps wont be a solution, because it would hit casual playerbase, not only minmaxers who faceroll the content.

Boss could present certain mechanic that would prevent DPS to burst them down. They could be immune to damage for a time, forcing the group to "survive" during that phase... Or bosses could heal themselves if they got killed too fast. There is plenty of possibilities. I'm sure Devs could come up with lots of ideas. I just want a fight to last longer than 45 sec. A fight that feel meaningful, like when we all started to play.

Its nice as healer to be forced to think strategically your heal. "Now I use a Shield", "Now I use my dispell" "Now I use my Combat Prayer" " time for a Hot" " ooh ***, fast, my big costly heal"

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I wish people would stop mentioning soft caps, because they have nothing to do with any of this. The fact is that ZOS has designed this game for DPS, with Tanks and Healers being minimized or even unneccessary. Bringing back soft caps won't change anything. For example, look at Veteran Maelstrom Arena. Gimping DPS in vMA isn't going to suddenly make it possible for Tank and Healer builds to complete.
What needs to happen is for the developers to reevaluate ALL content across the game and ask themselves if it's possible for players to heal or mitigate their way through that content... while doing modest damage, of course. In a lot of cases, Healers and Tanks are simply not viable for solo content, while they don't bring much to the table for group content, either.

Maelstrom arena is indeed not made for Tank and Healers, and this due mostly to DPS check, something I already complained about back when it was being tested. I'm fine with Healer and Tanks not being competitive in the race on leader boards, but whithout hard DPS check it could be totally possible to play The Maelstrom Arena successfully. It would be more about survival, managing resource, and avoiding damage.
When we had the Soft-Cap, it forced the players to diversify better their gear-passive-enchants-skill points. It was interesting. It was even possible to play a Khajiit - magika build because the lack of interesting magika passive was compensated by having more magika on gear.
I really miss the soft caps

Refuse2GrowUp

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I wish people would stop mentioning soft caps, because they have nothing to do with any of this. The fact is that ZOS has designed this game for DPS, with Tanks and Healers being minimized or even unneccessary. Bringing back soft caps won't change anything. For example, look at Veteran Maelstrom Arena. Gimping DPS in vMA isn't going to suddenly make it possible for Tank and Healer builds to complete.

What needs to happen is for the developers to reevaluate ALL content across the game and ask themselves if it's possible for players to heal or mitigate their way through that content... while doing modest damage, of course. In a lot of cases, Healers and Tanks are simply not viable for solo content, while they don't bring much to the table of group content, either.

Its more about game design imo. When there's a boss that makes a full-time tank a liability for his team (planar inhibitor) and a solo arena with heavy dps bias, thing will not change.
So I have high hopes for the new trial.

Planar Inhibitor can be tanked, and it is one of the viable methods to beat it; yes I know the 3/4 DPS rotation as well, but it can successfully be tanked and a lot of groups still use the tank holds aggro and everyone ignores pinions method. I think Engine Guardian is a better example as a Tank brings absolutely nothing to that fight, more or less the entire v dungeon.

Refuse2GrowUp

pretzl wrote: »

Is there a specific reason as to why you're ALWAYS whispering in your videos?

Decent points taken up, but you present the issue in a negligent way.
Speak up next time, kthx.

Maybe she is just soft spoken.

Not to say your point is invalid, but I think there might have been a more tactful way to suggest this to her. She is not presenting issues in a 'negligent' way. What I think you mean to say is that it might be easier to follow if she spoke up some and vocally emphasized the key issues.

Hard to ask her to present issues a little differently if you yourself present your point in a less than tactful way.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Elloa wrote: »

In The Elder Scrolls Online, today, you don't really feel useful as tank or as dedicated healer anymore. And that remove the fun. The biggest flaws come to the insane amount of damages players are capable of doing. When you compile build, champion points and gear with no soft cap, together with the animation cancelation technique, and the knowledge of the dungeon by heart (it's two years players are doing same dungeons over and over), those players are doing so much damage than you kill bosses faster than they can perform their techniques. Strategies are useless. Heal is useless. Tanking is useless. Doing damages is the way to go.

Agree with a lot of what you said. I wouldn't worry too much cause like you pointed out here, these dungeons are 2 years old and I am guessing weren't designed to be done by players with the builds we have now. I can't see the need for a healer diminishing with new dungeons coming out in the future. Actually with the nerf to Breathe of Life, you may even see the challenge and fun increase for healers.

To offer an idea for making it challenging for DPS. Zenimax could design a mob that will calculate the amount of DPS it is taking from players, then apply a cap where if you exceed it (say cap is 50k DPS, and your group does 51k DPS): the monster will activate a massive AoE that kills everyone.

I wouldn't do this for every mob because as a DPS, pushing the limit is part of the gameplay but it would be an interesting mechanic on a mob or two.

CP5

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

In The Elder Scrolls Online, today, you don't really feel useful as tank or as dedicated healer anymore. And that remove the fun. The biggest flaws come to the insane amount of damages players are capable of doing. When you compile build, champion points and gear with no soft cap, together with the animation cancelation technique, and the knowledge of the dungeon by heart (it's two years players are doing same dungeons over and over), those players are doing so much damage than you kill bosses faster than they can perform their techniques. Strategies are useless. Heal is useless. Tanking is useless. Doing damages is the way to go.

Agree with a lot of what you said. I wouldn't worry too much cause like you pointed out here, these dungeons are 2 years old and I am guessing weren't designed to be done by players with the builds we have now. I can't see the need for a healer diminishing with new dungeons coming out in the future. Actually with the nerf to Breathe of Life, you may even see the challenge and fun increase for healers.

To offer an idea for making it challenging for DPS. Zenimax could design a mob that will calculate the amount of DPS it is taking from players, then apply a cap where if you exceed it (say cap is 50k DPS, and your group does 51k DPS): the monster will activate a massive AoE that kills everyone.

I wouldn't do this for every mob because as a DPS, pushing the limit is part of the gameplay but it would be an interesting mechanic on a mob or two.

There is one craglorn boss that spawns a lot of high damage adds during several stages of the fight. The boss (spider boss, forget where) can die real easily, but over dpsing means you will be swarmed by an insane number of enemies so limiting dps is very helpful there, perhaps more fights could take something like that.

Elloa

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Is there a specific reason as to why you're ALWAYS whispering in your videos?

Decent points taken up, but you present the issue in a negligent way.
Speak up next time, kthx.

Maybe she is just soft spoken.

Not to say your point is invalid, but I think there might have been a more tactful way to suggest this to her. She is not presenting issues in a 'negligent' way. What I think you mean to say is that it might be easier to follow if she spoke up some and vocally emphasized the key issues.

Hard to ask her to present issues a little differently if you yourself present your point in a less than tactful way.

Hey hey!

First, I speak softly and calmly. This is part of my "style" so to speak. Most of my viewers enjoy it otherwise I'd have stopped long ago, but this is obviously not pleasing everyone. Its a question of taste. The sound balance, between my voice and the music should be good however.If its not, then I need to work on that.

Second, "Elloa the Rantosaurus" is a serie of short videos, VLOG-like where I speak up about a subject that inspire me. They last between 3 and 5 min and there is not much edition or preparation work.
My guides, and News videos are worked on a lot, and I put lots of care in the preparation, comment and edition.

BalticBlues

Elloa wrote: »

I speak softly and calmly. This is part of my "style" so to speak. Most of my viewers enjoy it.

I certainly do. I find it refreshing to listen to a calm and gentle voice.
Isn't it a good thing that people and styles are different?
Thankfully, our calmer European culture still differs a bit from the "power play" US culture.

Back to topic:
Could it be a solution to offer Non-CP-Dungeons?

If players had to play without their CPs, the content certainly would be more demanding.
ZOS could offer a reward for this, like a higher drop rate of monster helmets.

Humatiel

BalticBlues wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

I speak softly and calmly. This is part of my "style" so to speak. Most of my viewers enjoy it.

I certainly do. I find it refreshing to listen to a calm and gentle voice.
Isn't it a good thing that people and styles are different?
Thankfully, our calmer European culture still differs a bit from the "power play" US culture.

Back to topic:
Could it be a solution to offer Non-CP-Dungeons?

If players had to play without their CPs, the content certainly would be more demanding.
ZOS could offer a reward for this, like a higher drop rate of monster helmets.

It would have to be a substantial reward to entice players, whole builds are built around the theory of reduction/power etc. We're talking 80% chance of a monster helm drop type of reward.

edit: spelling

pretzl

Elloa wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

pretzl wrote: »

Is there a specific reason as to why you're ALWAYS whispering in your videos?

Decent points taken up, but you present the issue in a negligent way.
Speak up next time, kthx.

Maybe she is just soft spoken.

Not to say your point is invalid, but I think there might have been a more tactful way to suggest this to her. She is not presenting issues in a 'negligent' way. What I think you mean to say is that it might be easier to follow if she spoke up some and vocally emphasized the key issues.

Hard to ask her to present issues a little differently if you yourself present your point in a less than tactful way.

Hey hey!

First, I speak softly and calmly. This is part of my "style" so to speak. Most of my viewers enjoy it otherwise I'd have stopped long ago, but this is obviously not pleasing everyone. Its a question of taste. The sound balance, between my voice and the music should be good however.If its not, then I need to work on that.

Second, "Elloa the Rantosaurus" is a serie of short videos, VLOG-like where I speak up about a subject that inspire me. They last between 3 and 5 min and there is not much edition or preparation work.
My guides, and News videos are worked on a lot, and I put lots of care in the preparation, comment and edition.

I don't want to seem rude, because this isn't supposed to be, haha. I'm not going to watch your videos anyways as I don't enjoy watching most ESO YouTubers, so you're free to ignore my criticism.

Anyways, your accent coupled with the very low volume/your soft spoken voice kindof makes it hard to understand for me... And I'm an American living in the EU.
It is indeed a question of taste, but perhaps raise the volume of your voice in your recordings by just a tad? It's not huge, but it'll be a noticeably positive difference for your concurrent viewers, I'd think.

Then again, this is just the opinion of someone who watched 20s of your video and won't watch another, haha.

shugg

Good vid as a tank i do seem usless when not raiding or doing iv dungeons. The options they have is up yhe damage and health of every dungeon or add a heroic level which could be much harder and give yellow loot/ mats fir completion, i would also add a dead id dead to it so if you die u carnt be rezed unless the dungeon is reset.

Tanka need love atmo and vet meslstrom and current pvp proves this. Keep up the good work Elloa

LadyNalcarya

Elloa wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

(...)
The content has been nerfed because it was too demanding for the playerbase apparently. I dont really know how to fix it, but the new trial seems promising (and it has normal mode for casual players, which is fair). Reducing dps wont be a solution, because it would hit casual playerbase, not only minmaxers who faceroll the content.

Boss could present certain mechanic that would prevent DPS to burst them down. They could be immune to damage for a time, forcing the group to "survive" during that phase... Or bosses could heal themselves if they got killed too fast. There is plenty of possibilities. I'm sure Devs could come up with lots of ideas. I just want a fight to last longer than 45 sec. A fight that feel meaningful, like when we all started to play.

Its nice as healer to be forced to think strategically your heal. "Now I use a Shield", "Now I use my dispell" "Now I use my Combat Prayer" " time for a Hot" " ooh ***, fast, my big costly heal"

You can still play strategically as a healer/support. Using buffs/heals/off-dpsing does require smart approach and situational awareness.
I dont see implementation of 100 types of healing spells in ESO, to be honest. Buffing all damage so you would need to literally spam heals to survive? That's the case in some pugs already. The problem is that you're referring to experienced groups, with enough dps to kill everything before the get too much damage. Those groups are the minority in ESO playerbase. Try to join a random group through group finder tool, and you'll see the difference. Bring back softcaps? Yeah, removing them wasnt a smart idea, but if you just nerf everyone's characters one day, people wont be too happy.
Game balance is a very delicate matter, and its kinda hard to implement drastic changes without risking to screw up the whole game.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

To offer an idea for making it challenging for DPS. Zenimax could design a mob that will calculate the amount of DPS it is taking from players, then apply a cap where if you exceed it (say cap is 50k DPS, and your group does 51k DPS): the monster will activate a massive AoE that kills everyone.

Arguing in chat who triggered this mob will surely make player's experience more enjoyable.
Imo, average dps shouldnt be punished (=content shouldnt be impossible for average groups), but high dps shouldnt be punished as well. There just should be mechanics that cant be skipped with high burst, that's it. But punishing players is a bad, bad idea.

failkiwib16_ESO

Tbh. I prefer to burn through dungeons with my teams, as long as this game doesn't have a token system. I don't want to be "challenged" in a dungeon I have done 500 times over. Of course if the content was more rewarding, I would love more challenge along with it.

I join as a healer, and I usually slot whatever support/ damage/ healing that is required, to go fastest way possible through the dungeon.

Kublakan

Good points OP, and good thread, many replies are in my experience very accurate on the current state of the classes.

I started this game as a DK with shield and full point to health... Well, this was before the patch that change attributes. Now, the DK pure tank build is a pure joke.

So, I adapted and rolled a NB. I made him almost purely dps, with some survival skills, and the difference was huge compared to my old tank. It was fast and easy. I understand why so many like them.

Then I leveled a sorcerer... Whoohaaa, the diference was even bigger, because this one could tank! and tank well. Beside doing solo anything, anything the game throw at me.

I mean the difference is so huge it becomes hard to beleive it came to be in the first place.

Now, it seems the game is going somewhere like any class would be able to do a melting pot of role. At the end of the day, what it does it simply eliminates the classes and makes everyone a jack of all trades... Boring.

Bashev

What did you expect after the soft cap removal and constantly coming new more powerful DPS sets. On top of that ZoS increased the damage value of the jewelery glyphs. The damage formula is multiplicative and it increase ridiculously the damage. It should be additive.
But we have @wrobel and his combat team who are really struggling to improve the combat system. Actually they turned it into pure DPS system in PvP and PvE.

infraction2008b16_ESO

Elloa wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

funny fact she called healer being support and call 2 templar abilty's and a destruction staff abilty. meaning all healers don't have use unless you are a templar

Many poeple assume that you must be Templar to be a healer. And therefor ask you to use Repentence, or Shard, and whatnot.
Which is why I'm leveling a new healer Dragonknight. I want to explore all classes as healer eventually. It is not fair than only Templar get to be considered as proper healer.

IMO the biggest problem is the way group buffs/boss debuffs as well as class specific resource regen/refunding abilities work. On paper it might sound fun one player providing a buff or skill to help other players in terms of DPS or regen rates and many other MMO's have done this well for years, in this game however I feel they've gone overboard and not in a particularly balanced way.

All it leads to is people picking a particular class healer (templars) to provide a mainly support role to help with their magicka/stamina regen so they can stack weapon damage and out DPS mechanics.

I feel the best way to fix the status quo would be to return the responsibility of resource regeneration back to the player, make it so it's vital to have a certain amount of recovery or equivalent in cost reduction before you start stacking damage stats. To do this I feel they need to hard cap weapon/spell damage as well as crit rates (most MMO's cap crit in some way) so players can't stack too much even if they want to or can't over buff to give themselves too much without hitting the cap, I feel not having caps on max magicka/stamina is OK and yes you'd see people trying stacking that instead if weapon/spell damage was capped however if they change the way other players can help you restore your magicka/stamina then having gear sets that overly increase your main stat wouldn't be wise if you had no regen in your gear. That's why I feel they should look at the way certain classes or skill line abilities can help the group restore their mag/stam so it's up to the player to make sure they have enough regen in the first place.

I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for calling for nerfs to templars but I don't feel they should be required over other healers due to their resource refunding abilities. I feel spears (and morphs) shouldn't refund stamina or magicka on it's synergy but instead maybe heal and/or do AoE damage depending on morph. Repentance needs to be just a heal and have no stamina restore.

As for the destro staff, I feel elemental drains magicka restore should only work on chance similar to the way evil hunter works and should solely effect the player that cast it. This would not only balance things out more in terms of regeneration but also make the other morph more worthwhile.

Any other similar abilities or group buffs need to be looked at to make sure they don't stack or provide too much resource return to the group, that way the player has to optimize not only their damage stats but their recovery also.

Refuse2GrowUp

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

funny fact she called healer being support and call 2 templar abilty's and a destruction staff abilty. meaning all healers don't have use unless you are a templar

Many poeple assume that you must be Templar to be a healer. And therefor ask you to use Repentence, or Shard, and whatnot.
Which is why I'm leveling a new healer Dragonknight. I want to explore all classes as healer eventually. It is not fair than only Templar get to be considered as proper healer.

IMO the biggest problem is the way group buffs/boss debuffs as well as class specific resource regen/refunding abilities work. On paper it might sound fun one player providing a buff or skill to help other players in terms of DPS or regen rates and many other MMO's have done this well for years, in this game however I feel they've gone overboard and not in a particularly balanced way.

All it leads to is people picking a particular class healer (templars) to provide a mainly support role to help with their magicka/stamina regen so they can stack weapon damage and out DPS mechanics.

I feel the best way to fix the status quo would be to return the responsibility of resource regeneration back to the player, make it so it's vital to have a certain amount of recovery or equivalent in cost reduction before you start stacking damage stats. To do this I feel they need to hard cap weapon/spell damage as well as crit rates (most MMO's cap crit in some way) so players can't stack too much even if they want to or can't over buff to give themselves too much without hitting the cap, I feel not having caps on max magicka/stamina is OK and yes you'd see people trying stacking that instead if weapon/spell damage was capped however if they change the way other players can help you restore your magicka/stamina then having gear sets that overly increase your main stat wouldn't be wise if you had no regen in your gear. That's why I feel they should look at the way certain classes or skill line abilities can help the group restore their mag/stam so it's up to the player to make sure they have enough regen in the first place.

I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for calling for nerfs to templars but I don't feel they should be required over other healers due to their resource refunding abilities. I feel spears (and morphs) shouldn't refund stamina or magicka on it's synergy but instead maybe heal and/or do AoE damage depending on morph. Repentance needs to be just a heal and have no stamina restore.

As for the destro staff, I feel elemental drains magicka restore should only work on chance similar to the way evil hunter works and should solely effect the player that cast it. This would not only balance things out more in terms of regeneration but also make the other morph more worthwhile.

Any other similar abilities or group buffs need to be looked at to make sure they don't stack or provide too much resource return to the group, that way the player has to optimize not only their damage stats but their recovery also.

I have to disagree. One of the biggest problems with the game in its current state is that, largely due to PvP and solo content like Maelstrom Arena, each class is being made fully self sufficient. This is one of the biggest reasons we are drifting away from group play and support reliance. If every class is fully self sufficient, we do not need healers, and hardly ever need tanks.

There is nothing wrong with a DK being a better Tank or a Templar being a better Healer/Supporter. This does not mean other classes cannot fill the role as well, and do so rather successfully...simply, it means that some classes are more centered around a concept role. This is what keeps an MMO exactly that = a Multiplayer game. We need to get back to that concept and stop making every class a generalized, self-sufficient, DPS machine. Frankly, who cares if DKs are Tanky and lack burst, or if Templars fall short of the DPS of other toons. With Vet ranks going away and the devs making every grind super casual, there is no problem with leveling more than one toon and having certain toons for certain roles. It is only when we actually rely on support from others that we will truly see dungeons and Trials being a group endeavor.

infraction2008b16_ESO

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

I have to disagree. One of the biggest problems with the game in its current state is that, largely due to PvP and solo content like Maelstrom Arena, each class is being made fully self sufficient. This is one of the biggest reasons we are drifting away from group play and support reliance. If every class is fully self sufficient, we do not need healers, and hardly ever need tanks.

There is nothing wrong with a DK being a better Tank or a Templar being a better Healer/Supporter. This does not mean other classes cannot fill the role as well, and do so rather successfully...simply, it means that some classes are more centered around a concept role. This is what keeps an MMO exactly that = a Multiplayer game. We need to get back to that concept and stop making every class a generalized, self-sufficient, DPS machine. Frankly, who cares if DKs are Tanky and lack burst, or if Templars fall short of the DPS of other toons. With Vet ranks going away and the devs making every grind super casual, there is no problem with leveling more than one toon and having certain toons for certain roles. It is only when we actually rely on support from others that we will truly see dungeons and Trials being a group endeavor.

Half the problem is it's the group sufficiency that allows players to stack 4k damage and have 70+ percent crit while at the same time only having around an 850 regen rate. They don't need super high regen rates in group PvE due to the fact there are many ways the group can provide a way of returning resources so all those slots in your gear/set bonuses get used for damage stats. Second is the fact stacking DPS sets with similar stats provides no penalty, and all that weapon/spell damage you get from gear gets multiplied by mighty/elemental and the end result is ridiculous damage in where boss fights that are supposed to last a good few minutes end up taking 30 seconds with hardly any mechanics chucked at them. If weapon/spell damage was capped the effect the champion system plus other buffs & passives would be less and people would do less group/raid wide damage meaning fights last longer and they end up having more mechanics chucked at them.

Also being the OP is on about group content I'd rather have a healer that heals and maybe purges effects rather than one who's there just to buff the group. That's why I feel magicka/stamina management should be the players responsibility rather than being group reliant in group PvE content.

You mentioned maelstrom but that's a different (although similar) argument to the one here.

Ra'Shtar

I don't feel like a healer/support anymore i feel like a monster drink that someone is using because they are hungry or low on energy, dps has become too important leaving healers to aside as nothing more than orb spamming shard throwers player buffing mongrels.