This is partially why I love ESO. My DragonKnight can tank or dps at a moments notice.
Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »I have said it before, and will say it again...the only way the devs are going to get this game right is by having separate PvP and PvE profiles so that they can make changes to skills and mechanics for one without effecting the other. This will also allow players to pick morphs for PvE and PvP separately as I know numerous tanks and healers that both PvE and PvP and are forced to take less optimal PvE morphs to be more viable in Pvp.
Obviously in ESO, healing isn't only and exclusively about healing. I agree with that point. But when my healing get reduced to casting a Combat Prayer, more for the buff than the heal, and I spent my time casting Crushing Shock and light attack more than actually healing, well...I start to feel frustrated. Have I created a healer character to play it like I was doing a public Dungeon?
I want to be challenged! I want to see my tanks and DPS losing their life. I want to have to heal them. I want to be able to be perform again, my role as healer (not pure healer), not as a bad DPS that offheal when really *** happen.
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Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »"KoshkaMurka wrote: »Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »To offer an idea for making it challenging for DPS. Zenimax could design a mob that will calculate the amount of DPS it is taking from players, then apply a cap where if you exceed it (say cap is 50k DPS, and your group does 51k DPS): the monster will activate a massive AoE that kills everyone.
Arguing in chat who triggered this mob will surely make player's experience more enjoyable.
Imo, average dps shouldnt be punished (=content shouldnt be impossible for average groups), but high dps shouldnt be punished as well. There just should be mechanics that cant be skipped with high burst, that's it. But punishing players is a bad, bad idea.
Ahead of you on that one. I made sure I said group and not player.Right, bad idea to punish players but if you know the mechanic and still choose to ignore it. IMO, you should be punished. Kinda like those red circles, you know your not supposed to be in there. Anyway I was just offering a suggestion.
If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.
tinythinker wrote: »If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.
tinythinker wrote: »If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.
Emma_Eunjung wrote: »I wish people would stop mentioning soft caps, because they have nothing to do with any of this. The fact is that ZOS has designed this game for DPS, with Tanks and Healers being minimized or even unneccessary. Bringing back soft caps won't change anything. For example, look at Veteran Maelstrom Arena. Gimping DPS in vMA isn't going to suddenly make it possible for Tank and Healer builds to complete.
What needs to happen is for the developers to reevaluate ALL content across the game and ask themselves if it's possible for players to heal or mitigate their way through that content... while doing modest damage, of course. In a lot of cases, Healers and Tanks are simply not viable for solo content, while they don't bring much to the table for group content, either.
KoshkaMurka wrote: »tinythinker wrote: »If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.
Well, tanking role should be made viable in the first place. Healers are just magicka builds and can swap skills around for questing/soloing... While heavy armor has been nerfed to oblivion because of pvp balancing issues.
And lets be honest - that was a thing long before softcap removal. Its not like pre-1.6 game was a balanced perfection. There were "tanks" in light armor, godlike dks, gaining ulti with healing springs spam and other fun stuff. And those healers who hate supporting job seem to forget outhealing all those spell symmetries and dropping shards for tanks.
Besides, if you can do a dungeon with 3 dds doesnt mean it will be as pleasant as in normal group. It shoudlnt be ofc, but until issues with tanking are resolved, gimping dps would be pointless.
The problem is, almost all current content is nerfed multiple times and is terribly outdated. New dungeons and trial are not that easy
You're coming from the perspective of a dps, period. That's fine. I'm glad you are having more fun.tinythinker wrote: »If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.
I'm coming from the perspective of a dps back in the days when people ignores dps and asks for healers or tanks. Unlike back in the days when you need a tank and healer. These days you don't have to. But can still run a dungeon smoothly with a healer and tank. Everyone can still play together now.
GeertKarel wrote: »healing is way more rewarding if you can keep your damage dealers up with resources.. its really not that hard. I find it frustrating that healers only want to heal because most of the time you don't even need to heal and maybe 1 healing spring per 30 seconds, that is quite boring to be honest.
I don't think this is a valid point because in pretty much all MMO's I have ever played, keeping the other party members resources up (spear, orbs) is common sense for the healing role. 'Healing' doesn't just mean restoring health, it includes dispelling and giving resources to the party.
So whoever you're talking about who just heals and doesn't give resources is not playing the role to it's full potential.
tinythinker wrote: »Something relevant I just shared in a different thread...
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Prior to 1.6, everyone could roll dodge a decent amount. Stam builds had an advantage, but players learned to regularly roll and block while avoiding red circles and such. Doing so gave ultimate points.
While you could stack a stat like spell power or max health, the diminishing returns from soft caps meant that there was more room to try different arrangements/play-styles, so there were many builds even though a few deemed the most powerful (a.k.a. robes, sword and board, resto staff) were very common. ZOS even used to feature different builds, though this started happening less often and hasn't been done since October 2015. Plus because thing like spell damage/weapon damage were blended in gear and in the stats for staffs, stacking in one area was even harder.
There were problems of course, like magicka builds perpetually block-casting, and pain-trains, etc, that people wanted to end. Some called for making it easier to stack a single type of damage, and some went further asking for the removal of soft caps. These changes would supposedly fix the problems players were concerned about then.
The result was 1.6/2.0, wherein lots of strengths were nerfed and you had to earn them back via Champ Points. But taking away the old caps and letting stats stack easier made damage skyrocket/TTK implode in PvP and allowed builds with features such as "infinite dodge-roll". That was great for Bow users in PvP, but the players #%$#ed about it so the solution was to nerf damage for everyone in PvP and nerf dodge-rolling for everyone in the game. That pattern - nerfing many or all players to try to "balance" what 1.6 unleashed - continues even now.
The imbalances created by 1.6 and the subsequent "fixes" (and "fixes of the fixes") have spread into skill lines of all types and other areas. DPS is king. Healers are somewhat necessary but shouldn't be allowed to impair the damage too much, and tanks are mostly needed in PvE for trials and *some* group dungeon bosses. Otherwise, just load up on DPS (and maybe a hybrid DPS/healer) and burn, baby, burn.
There was no balancing system like boons/banes included with the Champ Trees, nor a "getting strong over here makes you weaker over there" caveat. You just get more bad-ass in all areas the more Champ Points you get, so why not invest in damage done and damage mitigated? Just stand in the red and do insane damage and if you get a little low get topped off by a burst heal.
So what I would like to see when I say "Yes" to a return to pre-1.6:
- make damage stacking much more difficult and require sacrifice so that a pure DD is more dependent on players with other roles, a true glass cannon if you just want to stack damage over all else
- make healing/support more essential and varied, give more ways to buff/debuff and to keep allies alive; but this only works in concert with other changes, don't just make healing/support harder or more complicated in the current system
- make tanks more relevant again, make them stand out, make them the staunch warriors who still do much less damage but who lead the charge and help to control the battlefield via mitigation and extreme crowd control; make people fear getting close to tanks, not because a tank has lots of damage, but because they can lock you down until their allies arrive to finish you off
- encourage/allow MORE ROLES on the battlefield in PvP via new gear and skill lines
Thank for reading.
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tinythinker wrote: »If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.
I'm coming from the perspective of a dps back in the days when people ignores dps and asks for healers or tanks. Unlike back in the days when you need a tank and healer. These days you don't have to. But can still run a dungeon smoothly with a healer and tank. Everyone can still play together now.
when the DPS is too high, strategies are obselete, tanks and healers have nothing to save anymore. Which is not fun.
the average player is not capable of doing THAT much damage.
vladimilianoub17_ESO1 wrote: »tinythinker wrote: »- make damage stacking much more difficult and require sacrifice so that a pure DD is more dependent on players with other roles, a true glass cannon if you just want to stack damage over all else
- make healing/support more essential and varied, give more ways to buff/debuff and to keep allies alive; but this only works in concert with other changes, don't just make healing/support harder or more complicated in the current system
- make tanks more relevant again, make them stand out, make them the staunch warriors who still do much less damage but who lead the charge and help to control the battlefield via mitigation and extreme crowd control; make people fear getting close to tanks, not because a tank has lots of damage, but because they can lock you down until their allies arrive to finish you off
- encourage/allow MORE ROLES on the battlefield in PvP via new gear and skill lines
Thank for reading.
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Amen to that written in big letters.
After many situations in which my favorite toon and role (tank) was not needed in many runs and ppl telling me to change my tank dk to dps because tanks are " meh" I have not logged in in almost 3 months.Keep comming to forums everyday to see any topics like this one and see if ZOS is aware and are working in a way to make the trinity important again.But i dont see them even " lurking" around.An open costumization MMO where DPS is the only thing that matter is a very bad desing.ZOS what have you done with the game I used to love more than any other?
tinythinker wrote: »If healers and tanks aren't needed, why would anyone take them, and if they aren't taken along, how does that translate into "everyone" being accepted. How is having 3, 3 1/2, or 4 damage dealers inclusive?im glad majority of the dungeons don't require healer or tank so everyone can get accepted.
I'm coming from the perspective of a dps back in the days when people ignores dps and asks for healers or tanks. Unlike back in the days when you need a tank and healer. These days you don't have to. But can still run a dungeon smoothly with a healer and tank. Everyone can still play together now.
Except that if you have nothing to heal, or nothing to tank, you end being pretty much bored as Healer/Tank.Its hard to have fun, when you are not needed. You need to understand the mindset of healers and tanks. Players that enjoy those roles, enjoy it cause they like to contribute to the teamwork, they like to play "saviour of some sorts", "protectors" when the DPS is too high, strategies are obselete, tanks and healers have nothing to save anymore. Which is not fun.
tinythinker wrote: »vladimilianoub17_ESO1 wrote: »tinythinker wrote: »- make damage stacking much more difficult and require sacrifice so that a pure DD is more dependent on players with other roles, a true glass cannon if you just want to stack damage over all else
- make healing/support more essential and varied, give more ways to buff/debuff and to keep allies alive; but this only works in concert with other changes, don't just make healing/support harder or more complicated in the current system
- make tanks more relevant again, make them stand out, make them the staunch warriors who still do much less damage but who lead the charge and help to control the battlefield via mitigation and extreme crowd control; make people fear getting close to tanks, not because a tank has lots of damage, but because they can lock you down until their allies arrive to finish you off
- encourage/allow MORE ROLES on the battlefield in PvP via new gear and skill lines
Thank for reading.
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Amen to that written in big letters.
After many situations in which my favorite toon and role (tank) was not needed in many runs and ppl telling me to change my tank dk to dps because tanks are " meh" I have not logged in in almost 3 months.Keep comming to forums everyday to see any topics like this one and see if ZOS is aware and are working in a way to make the trinity important again.But i dont see them even " lurking" around.An open costumization MMO where DPS is the only thing that matter is a very bad desing.ZOS what have you done with the game I used to love more than any other?
If you haven't seen it yet you might want to share your thoughts in this recent thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248921/official-tanking-feedback-thread
(...)
We all have different play-styles, but it doesn't mean that just because we have a clear understanding of how we play that we close our minds to other forms of play-style. To OP, I'm sure you're pretty good at what you're doing and/or your role, and I get it, damage in this game (even with all it's "nerfs") is quite insane, especially in PvE. And as much as I agree that roles outside DPS is worrisome, if you think that the healing role is only to save someone from eminent death, and that you are being "reduced" as someone who only provides resources, etc, then I believe it's an issue with your play-style. Not necessarily a lot of healers/tanks.
It's certainly not related to only my playstyle, considering the amount of persons that have agreed with what i've said. And I know for having discussed with enough poeple that it's actually a frustration from many healers and tanks.
Obviously in ESO, healing isn't only and exclusively about healing. I agree with that point. But when my healing get reduced to casting a Combat Prayer, more for the buff than the heal, and I spent my time casting Crushing Shock and light attack more than actually healing, well...I start to feel frustrated. Have I created a healer character to play it like I was doing a public Dungeon?
I want to be challenged! I want to see my tanks and DPS losing their life. I want to have to heal them. I want to be able to be perform again, my role as healer (not pure healer), not as a bad DPS that offheal when really *** happen.
Hence the reason why I prefer to play with newbie players that are actually not doing enough damage to make all fights trivial. Hence why I prefer to explore my healing capabilities with a lowbie Dragonknight healer, and see what I can do with that one.
My Templar is now retired and get in Dungeons only when my guild needs me.
So yeah, actually I'm saying that it's more fun to play with unexperimented, not optimised players. At least I DO. Played with (nice) pro-players, and it's actually not very fun. (This is not related to their attitude as they were friendly)
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KoshkaMurka wrote: »... For example, there's a boss in vMA, Voriak Solkyn. At certain % of his health he teleports away, and becomes invincible while doing so, so even with highest dps possible you'll still need to perform required mechanic.
Anyways, back to your point, I think then that we have very different ideas of what a healer should be. I would never want to see my teammates's health drop (not that it doesn't). Like I said in my post, I would rather want to do preventive measures than doing the actual cure. To me that is what is more challenging. Personally, I don't find it challenging to just heal, like what you want to do. Because as I said, I'd just be have BoL or healing springs on my bar and spam the hell out of it. Wait, isn't it why they are nerfing BoL?
I play with pugs most of the time. I don't have pro-player friends, like you do, but I have played with really good players before who rarely needs my healing, so I do more DPS, more debuffing targets, buffing allies, shields, etc-- to me, I don't only optimized my tank and DPS-es but I also optimized myself, as a healer. Frankly, I enjoy playing with either groups of people.
Lastly, I am not telling you how to play your game, it's yours to enjoy. Just saying there is more to it than how you (currently) perceive it. Maybe if you open your mind to other things then maybe you can do even greater things than just "healing". Juuuust saying.
KoshkaMurka wrote: »... For example, there's a boss in vMA, Voriak Solkyn. At certain % of his health he teleports away, and becomes invincible while doing so, so even with highest dps possible you'll still need to perform required mechanic.
Not true.
The boss is not killable until you destroy all three pillars around the room. At that time a timer starts until the pillars are back up, it is not correlated with the boss' max health. With high dps it is possible to kill the boss before the pillars get back up.
That boss fight is another example of a skippable mechanic with high burst damage.
KoshkaMurka wrote: »KoshkaMurka wrote: »... For example, there's a boss in vMA, Voriak Solkyn. At certain % of his health he teleports away, and becomes invincible while doing so, so even with highest dps possible you'll still need to perform required mechanic.
Not true.
The boss is not killable until you destroy all three pillars around the room. At that time a timer starts until the pillars are back up, it is not correlated with the boss' max health. With high dps it is possible to kill the boss before the pillars get back up.
That boss fight is another example of a skippable mechanic with high burst damage.
No, I mean the first part. I dont see how its possible to kill him without teleporting upstairs, so no skipping mecahnics in this case. If it is possible without any kind of exploits, I'd like to see a video.
I didnt know it was possible to get 2 crystal phases though. I've never seen that. o.O
And anyways... Mechanics on this boss are unskippable. He teleports upstairs no matter what, he will enrage if he eats 3 golden ghosts etc.
Ibomex mechanics are skippable though, since you can just ignore the grenades. But you cant kill Solkyn without him teleporting upstairs.