Spying on Material Trade(MM) is fine but Spying on Group DPS is not?

Zinaroth · January 2016

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Completely agree, let's ruin MM aswell while we're at it. Oh and let us not forget buff tracker addons, I am able to see other peoples buffs with those, including if they have eaten food in dungeons. Look at my "spying" on everyone.

To get back to GroupDamage:

Aslong as people are allowed to derp around and waste others time without any demand for self-improvement, they won't release more challenging content . If the population increases in skill then it demands more of the developers, that is what happened in WoW and they are getting better and better raids. But because people do not want to learn or to improve by other people being able to point out their flaws based on statistics, we will never have that developement, and ZOS is perfectly fine with this because it requires less of them as developers. They should not cater to casuals, they should cater to the players who know what they're doing. If people have nothing to aspire to the game dies and all that will be left is solo content and quests, and then this game dies as an MMO.

The problem here is you think that playing the "properly" is by min maxing etc. Not everybody agrees with you. Unless they ask, not everybody wants you telling them they can get more DPS this way, or that they are doing this wrong. Why? Because they probably don't care. What you would call a waste of time other people would call fun.

Not everybody plays for the same reason you do.

ZOS will cater to those who make them the most money. As they should.

Florial wrote: »

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

The problem here is you think that playing the "properly" is by min maxing etc. Not everybody agrees with you. Unless they ask, not everybody wants you telling them they can get more DPS this way, or that they are doing this wrong. Why? Because they probably don't care. What you would call a waste of time other people would call fun.

Not everybody plays for the same reason you do.

ZOS will cater to those who make them the most money. As they should.

Awesome post and I can't agree more. Personally, I play this game for the story, the lore, the exploration, and beauty of the virtual world. I even enjoyed muddling through Caldwell's Gold several times learning a bit more as I completed the zones. I eventually will venture more into group content once I've completed my laundry list of what I want to do solo. I've enjoyed group content in other MMOs however it quickly sours when some min/maxer is yelling at team mates in dungeons belittling them on their DPS, tanking or healing. Unfortunately these tools for "self improvement" are often not used wisely during your average group encounter. Rarely have I encountered some wise old sage in a dungeon say, "Florial, according to Recount I see you are a bit low on DPS. Can we discuss your skill sets, skill rotation after our run. Perhaps I can give you some pointers since I also play a (insert class)." The advice is more like, "U suck l2p noob, kill urself" (kick) I've found MMOs so much more mean spirited these days. Now I find it unusual when I don't get into a nasty group (speaking from my recent WoW experiences).

Don't get me wrong. I think DPS meters can be very useful. For the raiding guild, for players wishing to improve themselves. I've personally used DPS meters in most games I've played for MY self improvement. Perhaps an opt out feature would have been the best solution. Dunno. As to MM, this is such a useful tool for trading guilds. As another poster said, having active traders is vital for a successful trading guild. Guild leaders have every right to track sales, especially the guilds with very expensive traders. I belong to one very high volume trading guild and the guild leader does track our sales. Fair in my opinion and a necessary tool if you want to run a successful trading guild.

People can play however they want but when they go into a group with other people to overcome difficult content they have to compromise with that and do what is most effective, or at least effective, in order to not waste other peoples time. I am not saying people should be min/maxed, but I am saying they should strive to perform the best given their current gear and scenario. If that means someone telling you to stop spamming one skill and using another because its better, then you should swallow all that pride and aknowledge that following advice will make the run less miserable, even better would have been if you had looked up some information on your class beforehand but you're way past that at this point.

Take the snipe spamming idiot pulling 5k DPS, sure he has every right to play like that, and he has every right to not wanting to be critisized, but how long do you think his patience would last when he gets grouped up with his light attack spamming brother pulling 2k DPS?

People who don't want to improve shouldn't do group content, and as such have nothing to fear when it comes to other people checking their DPS, since they won't be if they stay out of group content.

You cannot expect that people should just drag you along, even in random group, because; "it is only a game" and "I can play how I want" and then tell people they can't complain. That is the most self-entitled bunch of guar *** I have read in a long while, way worse than people wanting content nerfed.

I don't play with randoms at all because I don't want people wasting my time, but that doesn't mean GroupDamage shouldn't be a thing, it totally should.

DPS meters is such a useful tool for group leader, and is vital for success in dungeons. Group leaders have every right to monitor everyones performance. I belong to a very high end raiding guild and our raid leaders track our DPS. Fair in my opinion and a necessary tool if you want to run a succesfull dungeon.

See how that argumentation works in both cases?

SanTii.92 · January 2016

tengri wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Better stay bad then get better right? I mean why do you even worry about those addons because you will never be able(nor do you want to I guess) to even join elitist grps with that attitude

Not the point.
Ofc I want to get better and monitor and optimize my performance. Big emphasis on my.
I decide what and when and to whom I show my performance statistics. And only I.

This is a flawed logic, there is nothing intimate and personal on your dps, it's actually a public data. If I can know my dps, the health of the boss and the time of the fight I can deduce your dps, it's simple.

People should stop trying to find ghosts when there are not. Intolerant players will kick you or rage quit either they have GroupDamage or not. Personally I've encountered very few of these individuals, even when I just use the lfg tool most of the times.

The sheer fear of being outcast for a simple addon is actually more detrimental for the overall health of the community. There is nothing wrong on not having enough dps for a particular task. You should take that as a lesson, try to identify how could you improve and come back later. You can fail, it's just a game.

Would it be worst being quick from a group without the data of your actual dps? Most of the times you don't even realize you are not doing enough dps.

timidobserver · January 2016

These are the same people that couldn't handle the LOL button on the forums because it hurts people's feelings. I did not expect group damage to last very long, but I admit that I was somewhat surprised by the level of priority they gave it. I think it took them less than a week to ban it after the first complaint thread.

ZOS_AlanG · January 2016

There have been a number of threads about the group damage change, and several comparing it to Master Merchant. Most of these threads grew toxic and had to be locked, and also tended to get stuck circling around the same few points.

There are strong feelings for and against this, which means its especially important to keep any discussion civil and constructive. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and no one should be attacked for it. If you disagree that's fine, but it's not appropriate to insult an opinion or those who hold it.

As this is an issue that's very important to many people, we think it's important to have room to discuss it here on the forums. But the track record for these threads is not great, so we ask that everyone take extra time to ensure they're following the forum rules:

Please remember to be respectful and constructive at all times on our forums, and help us maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all.

Florial · January 2016

"Zinaroth wrote: »

People can play however they want but when they go into a group with other people to overcome difficult content they have to compromise with that and do what is most effective, or at least effective, in order to not waste other peoples time. I am not saying people should be min/maxed, but I am saying they should strive to perform the best given their current gear and scenario. If that means someone telling you to stop spamming one skill and using another because its better, then you should swallow all that pride and aknowledge that following advice will make the run less miserable, even better would have been if you had looked up some information on your class beforehand but you're way past that at this point.

Take the snipe spamming idiot pulling 5k DPS, sure he has every right to play like that, and he has every right to not wanting to be critisized, but how long do you think his patience would last when he gets grouped up with his light attack spamming brother pulling 2k DPS?

People who don't want to improve shouldn't do group content, and as such have nothing to fear when it comes to other people checking their DPS, since they won't be if they stay out of group content.

You cannot expect that people should just drag you along, even in random group, because; "it is only a game" and "I can play how I want" and then tell people they can't complain. That is the most self-entitled bunch of guar *** I have read in a long while, way worse than people wanting content nerfed.

I don't play with randoms at all because I don't want people wasting my time, but that doesn't mean GroupDamage shouldn't be a thing, it totally should.

DPS meters is such a useful tool for group leader, and is vital for success in dungeons. Group leaders have every right to monitor everyones performance. I belong to a very high end raiding guild and our raid leaders track our DPS. Fair in my opinion and a necessary tool if you want to run a succesfull dungeon.

See how that argumentation works in both cases?

You make some good points and as you say, you are part of a good guild that does the content together. People you run with are like minded and have specific goals in mind. You are player who likes to run something with max efficiency and not waste time. I get that. I also hear what you are saying about someone not pulling their weight such as the one skill player who spams the same thing over and over again. I've been in groups healing where everything takes forever to die. It is obvious, even without a DPS meter, that our DPS isn't up to par. PUGs are such random encounters...sometimes they go flawlessly, sometimes they go horribly awry. I think that players should do their best in random groups and play to the best of their ability. On these points I can certainly agree. When I encounter a challenged group, I give it a few tries and politely excuse myself. DPS meters certainly have their place and are a great tool for like minded groups. I still think the opt out option would be a great idea. If you are in a guild group, by all means use it. Queuing up for a random pick up group....should be a player choice. As I mentioned before, I've always have run a DPS meter---for my personal improvement. I'm not totally against them.

My problem are groups that expect flawless execution each dungeon run. Those players who belittle others when DPS isn't up to their standards. What about the player coming into a dungeon for the very first time? Now days it seems the norm to rage at that player instead of help. My first dungeon---the starter tutorial dungeon in Wildstar---was such a horrid experience that I never did another one. The amount of abuse--to players just learning their class---was over the top. No thanks. Group content should be fun. Laugh at mistakes. When you can't do that, I would ask why play a game?

Anyway, my two cents. Hopefully stated in a respectful manner.

Zinaroth · January 2016

Florial wrote: »

My problem are groups that expect flawless execution each dungeon run. Those players who belittle others when DPS isn't up to their standards. What about the player coming into a dungeon for the very first time? Now days it seems the norm to rage at that player instead of help. My first dungeon---the starter tutorial dungeon in Wildstar---was such a horrid experience that I never did another one. The amount of abuse--to players just learning their class---was over the top. No thanks. Group content should be fun. Laugh at mistakes. When you can't do that, I would ask why play a game?

This is definately a problem in gaming, people who grow bigger by belittling others. I don't think GroupDamage neither helps or makes it worse though. Like you said if someone isn't performing well there's other ways to tell other than damage statistics, so they will most likely get scorn anyway. I try to be helpful as much as possible when I meet people ingame, and eventhough we might refer to others as plebs or RPers in our guild, it's mostly just a joke, and a lot of us make guides or educational videos; Alcast, the creator of this thread being a good example.

Shutting down DPS meters is not as much an issue because we have other ways of testing people if need be, but it shows a direction the game is heading we do not agree with; a direction where the game developer is protecting people from learning to play instead of giving us tools or atleast allowing them to learn people to play. This again leads back to my original comment where it is easier and a lot less demanding to make games catered to very casual people than hardcore raiders.

Without hardcore raiders, min/maxers and avid PvPers an MMO will fail as an MMO, and if the community doesn't get better together we will never get better or more difficult content.

You certainly have a point that there is an issue with peoples behaviour towards other people in random group runs, but I don't agree that GroupDamage would make that better and worse, and until someone has actually conducted a study and give us tangible proof, then what ZOS is doing here is just limiting its own player base, and as a player I find that disturbing, especially given the reason they have can be applied to a large number of other addons but they don't seem to care about those, which means it is most likely just a popularized statement so they can appeal to the masses who QQ on forums. All very disturbing to me.

Dagoth_Rac · January 2016

Guild sales info is already public, just a time consuming hassle to keep track of manually. DPS and HPS are not public info. I think it is as simple as that. If ZOS ever make DPS public or optionally public via game setting, I think GroupDamage addon would be fine. But as long as it is private info, players should make the choice themselves to share it. And there are multiple existing addons that give you ways to share your DPS and HPS numbers with the group.

Thelon · January 2016

@ZOS_AlanG
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Which raiding Guild (s) did you consult with before deciding to nerf an add-on important to them?

CloseLine · January 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

because this game isn't competitive

There are leader boards. That by its very nature makes the game competitive.

Zinaroth · January 2016

Thelon wrote: »

@ZOS_AlanG
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Which raiding Guild (s) did you consult with before deciding to nerf an add-on important to them?

Don't make me laugh.

Enodoc · January 2016

Thelon wrote: »

Which raiding Guild (s) did you consult with before deciding to nerf an add-on important to them?

Why would they consult anyone when all they have done is removed something that should never have existed?

Thelon · January 2016

Love Wizard · January 2016

I honestly find it hopeless how people qq over this group damage addon because it lurks in your privacy or whatever. It's straight up pathetic. Once upon a time this game was balanced around the hardcore players, and the skilled players, but now it feels like the developers is trying to make it easier, more friendly and more lore related which in my opinion is a huge mistake, you should always balance a game around the more hardcore players, and the more skilled players, this will ensure the game to get good balance updates, and at a certain point people will be more skilled, and if they don't the more skilled players will win as they're supposed to do.

Nevertheless, to stay ontopic here. What's wrong with people being able to see your DPS? This tool is a crucial part for example for us people in Hodor, as it allows us to test out how recruits perform, and what works and what doesn't.
I think group damage addon is an amazing addon, and the best thing about it is that you can NOT manipulate the data as you can with master merchant for instance.

STOP LISTENING TO THE MORE CASUAL POOL OF PLAYERS ZENIMAX, AND LISTEN TO THE MORE SKILLED ONES AS THIS WILL ENSURE BETTER BALANCE IN THE GAME.

Nestor · January 2016

Why can't people improve without this addon

Alcast wrote: »

Why blame? We are looking to improve players, we do not "blame" a single player
It was also nice to compare my damage to others to see where I do better and where I do worse.

The only way for a player to improve is to spy on their DPS?
There is no other way for a player to see what DPS they are doing themselves?
There is no other way for a player to show others what DPS they are doing if they choose?

What did you all do before this particular add on came out?

Valen_Byte · January 2016

Regardless of how you stand on this topic. They have made their decision and it is what it is. These threads are a waste of time.

timidobserver · January 2016

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Regardless of how you stand on this topic. They have made their decision and it is what it is. These threads are a waste of time.

It is an extremely rare occurrence, but they have been known to reconsider their decisions when given enough support from the community. The people that support Group Damage should definitely continue to let ZOS know.

Enodoc · January 2016

Thelon wrote: »

I see you couldn't come up with a good counter-argument. Nice picture

Valen_Byte · January 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Regardless of how you stand on this topic. They have made their decision and it is what it is. These threads are a waste of time.

It is an extremely rare occurrence, but they have been known to reconsider their decisions when given enough support from the community. The people that support Group Damage should definitely continue to let ZOS know.

Yes, I have seen them change things back. However, this is cut straight down the middle. There is no majority here. They will not change their minds on this one.

What it comes down to is that they never intended for this to be a thing. It was a mistake on there end. Some crafty addon creator found a way to...in zos's mind, exploit the damage numbers.

They simply corrected what they consider to be there mistake. That's that.

timidobserver · January 2016

Valen_Byte wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Regardless of how you stand on this topic. They have made their decision and it is what it is. These threads are a waste of time.

It is an extremely rare occurrence, but they have been known to reconsider their decisions when given enough support from the community. The people that support Group Damage should definitely continue to let ZOS know.

Yes, I have seen them change things back. However, this is cut straight down the middle. There is no majority here. They will not change their minds on this one.

What it comes down to is that they never intended for this to be a thing. It was a mistake on there end. Some crafty addon creator found a way to...in zos's mind, exploit the damage numbers.

They simply corrected what they consider to be there mistake. That's that.

Animation cancelling was a mistake/unintended, and community support saw it become intended, supported, and encouraged(not intended to start a debate about whether animation cancelling is good or not, just making a point.)

Regardless of what you have said, there is no reason for people that support this addon not to make ZOS aware of that support. Given that the issue is split down the middle, they could revert their decision to something that is split down the middle. I don't really care to debate the ideas, but to give some examples; a toggle, only enabling it in premade groups, adding group kick voting, only enabled for guildies and friend list, adding more support for the type of sharing that ftc does, ect. People that liked Group Damage should make ZOS aware of that every day.

Thelon · January 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

I see you couldn't come up with a good counter-argument. Nice picture

You're a community ambassador who is against ZOS consulting with the community.

Enodoc wrote: »

Why would they consult anyone when all they have done is removed something that should never have existed?

Just decon your forum title

Zyle · January 2016

Thelon wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I see you couldn't come up with a good counter-argument. Nice picture

You're a community ambassador who is against ZOS consulting with the community.

Enodoc wrote: »

Why would they consult anyone when all they have done is removed something that should never have existed?

Just decon your forum title

Where did he say that he is against ZOS consulting with the community? He pointed out that there wasn't a reason to from ZOS' end.

Alcast · January 2016

Nestor wrote: »

Why can't people improve without this addon

Alcast wrote: »

Why blame? We are looking to improve players, we do not "blame" a single player
It was also nice to compare my damage to others to see where I do better and where I do worse.

The only way for a player to improve is to spy on their DPS?
There is no other way for a player to see what DPS they are doing themselves?
There is no other way for a player to show others what DPS they are doing if they choose?

What did you all do before this particular add on came out?

Ofcourse there is other ways. But it makes it a lot easier. It is kind of annyoing to share DPS every time. Here I could always compare my dmg to others and see If I did worse or better. And if I did worse I would ask dude how did you do that?
Nobody is spamming DPS log after every trash.

SorataArisugawa · January 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Alcast
You forget this is ZoS we're talking about, logic on resonates when a minority wants something removed in-comparison to the majority.

Just for your insight: you are not the majority. Learn to deal with it instead of posting nonsense...

altemriel · January 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Spying with addons like Master Merchant to see sales of people and get the average sellingprice etc: ALLOWED
Spying with addons like GroupDamage to see the DPS of players to help them improve etc: NOT ALLOWED
Any logic behind this?

Group Damage Addon was anyway only used in Progression guilds where people can not even enter who do not want to show their dps...so please...re-enable it

I also do not think that we have such an unhealthy environment where people are being kicked for not having certain dps. (A person who cannot fulfil their role and does not listen to advice is another thing tho)

I agree that banning Group Damage addon is bad, ZOS should have only implement "do not participate" option, but dude, do not make Master Merchant banned! That is one of the best addons!!

altemriel · January 2016

seriously, what is the point in banning Group Damage addon? why is someone not willing to share his/her dps with the rest of the group?

SorataArisugawa · January 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Why can't people improve without this addon

Alcast wrote: »

Why blame? We are looking to improve players, we do not "blame" a single player
It was also nice to compare my damage to others to see where I do better and where I do worse.

The only way for a player to improve is to spy on their DPS?
There is no other way for a player to see what DPS they are doing themselves?
There is no other way for a player to show others what DPS they are doing if they choose?

What did you all do before this particular add on came out?

Ofcourse there is other ways. But it makes it a lot easier. It is kind of annyoing to share DPS every time. Here I could always compare my dmg to others and see If I did worse or better. And if I did worse I would ask dude how did you do that?
Nobody is spamming DPS log after every trash.

so basicaly you are lazy and all the problems, which could occur with it, could not effect you. So it is fine.
You know how this view on the world is called? egocentric. And do you know why it is considered a bad thing by thinking people?

SorataArisugawa · January 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Spying with addons like Master Merchant to see sales of people and get the average sellingprice etc: ALLOWED
Spying with addons like GroupDamage to see the DPS of players to help them improve etc: NOT ALLOWED
Any logic behind this?
Group Damage Addon was anyway only used in Progression guilds where people can not even enter who do not want to show their dps...so please...re-enable it

Because elitist azzholes that they dont know anything better than just pressing 5 buttons in their life go and yell to other nice people below them in the dps meter list "LEARN TO PLAAAAYYYY" and whole game just turn to a dps race/*** race.. And some people think they cant play and stop playing with frustration. I withnessed that in WoW

Good call ZOS.

I do not think, and I do not hope that we in ESO have such a toxic environment

environments change. That is no magic. On reason, why the people are so civil is, that such things like this addon are not on the market for TESO.

SorataArisugawa · January 2016

altemriel wrote: »

seriously, what is the point in banning Group Damage addon? why is someone not willing to share his/her dps with the rest of the group?

Because there are a lot of people which would leave the dungeons faster, if they know the DPS of the other. There would be much more rudeness in the "pugs". I don't want that in the game. So I am against that addon. If the people decide to post there DPS, thats okay. It is their own free will. But it should always the decision of the player.

Rosveen · January 2016

There's one thing I don't get. I've been mostly absent from ESO in the last months, so bear with me. I remember FTC used to have an opt-in function, what happened to it? Are all forms of group DPS disabled now? Couldn't ZOS still keep it opt-in, which I think would be an acceptable compromise?

Alcast · January 2016

Rosveen wrote: »

There's one thing I don't get. I've been mostly absent from ESO in the last months, so bear with me. I remember FTC used to have an opt-in function, what happened to it? Are all forms of group DPS disabled now? Couldn't ZOS still keep it opt-in, which I think would be an acceptable compromise?

They probably could have but it was removed so fast I am not sure what actually caused the removal of the Addon.

There were 2 guys QQing in a thread about it hardcore and suddenly it got removed, not sure tho if those 2 dudes were the maincause. Tho they really replied on every darn post in that thread and maybe ZOS thought they are "All People"