Spying on Material Trade(MM) is fine but Spying on Group DPS is not?

Islyn

Zinaroth wrote: »

Florial wrote: »

My problem are groups that expect flawless execution each dungeon run. Those players who belittle others when DPS isn't up to their standards. What about the player coming into a dungeon for the very first time? Now days it seems the norm to rage at that player instead of help. My first dungeon---the starter tutorial dungeon in Wildstar---was such a horrid experience that I never did another one. The amount of abuse--to players just learning their class---was over the top. No thanks. Group content should be fun. Laugh at mistakes. When you can't do that, I would ask why play a game?

This is definately a problem in gaming, people who grow bigger by belittling others.

Especially when some people have _only this_ by which to measure their successes in life.

This not a hidden jab at anyone - but it is obvious who's doing nothing but leeching off others in real life whilst they try and show everyone how awesome they are at fighting pretend stuff in a pretend world with pretend characters.

I mean it's what you do in a game - but when the game becomes serious as real life or a 2nd job (and I can hear your kids screaming in the background!!) then people need to take stock of their (lack of) lives and sort it out.

I don't care if the damage meter is available or not.
I can tell if we have GOOD, OK or bad dps depending on how long things take and what happens. The exact number is not important to me - but I get that some people like to know, and in those groups I post mine - but yeah. Some people are over the top and seriously need to get a bit of a grip.

So I do agree with Alcast's point - but at the same time, I have rarely (bar 2 specific people) seen THE BEST DPS I know(guess we cannot name names here either?) have bad attitudes toward others, usually, the very best players are the coolest and kindest, and most helpful time and again.

Usually it's the people who think they have really good dps and DON'T (bar 2 specific people who I won't name or ever play with again) tend to be the rude, elitist sounding whatsits who are actually not very good at all and they can go do one anyway because I wouldn't dirty my resto staves with the likes of them ;-)

anitajoneb17_ESO

Alcast wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

There's one thing I don't get. I've been mostly absent from ESO in the last months, so bear with me. I remember FTC used to have an opt-in function, what happened to it? Are all forms of group DPS disabled now? Couldn't ZOS still keep it opt-in, which I think would be an acceptable compromise?

They probably could have but it was removed so fast I am not sure what actually caused the removal of the Addon.

There were 2 guys QQing in a thread about it hardcore and suddenly it got removed, not sure tho if those 2 dudes were the maincause. Tho they really replied on every darn post in that thread and maybe ZOS thought they are "All People"

I guess one of the "2 guys QQing" you mention is me, even though there were far more of us than just 2, and even though I'm not a guy

I believe this 1st thread is what got the addon banned, BUT not because of the opinions expressed there, but simply because it informed ZOS of the existence of this addon. They would probably have found out sooner or later, but that thread is how they found out.

Remember that ZOS' original concept for the game is "number-free". We are all supposed to be immersed in combat and find out about what we have to do and what we're doing with visual clues and health bars only, no numbers at all. Like it would be in a "RL combat". One might agree or disagree with that concept, but that's how it is. That's also why we have no training dummies and no buff timers. That is why this addon was removed, that's why FTC used to be forbidden in PvP and is now merely "tolerated", that is why our native character sheet is so thin on useful stats, and so on... we're supposed to "feel" things, not "calculate" them.

However, ZOS is gradually taking steps away from this original design (cloud combat numbers are coming natively), so there's hope that some of the useful features of GroupDamage will be available one way or the other some day, without the negative aspects of it.

As to your OP : warriors are not supposed to fight with maths, merchants work based on numbers and calculations. That's why the combat info is natively hidden in the game while the trading info is displayed.

.

Enodoc

Rosveen wrote: »

There's one thing I don't get. I've been mostly absent from ESO in the last months, so bear with me. I remember FTC used to have an opt-in function, what happened to it? Are all forms of group DPS disabled now? Couldn't ZOS still keep it opt-in, which I think would be an acceptable compromise?

As far as I know, FTC's version of this is a long-standing thing that uses API info which has been around forever. In this instance, an add-on was using specific API data that ZOS inadvertently added recently (I think it was in Update 7/Imperial City) and have now removed. As long as FTC hasn't changed the info it was using to start with, in theory it should still work.

omfgitsbatman

Lol... your post has lasted a lot longer than mine did XD
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243177/spy-addon-master-merchant/p1

Function

Enodoc wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

There's one thing I don't get. I've been mostly absent from ESO in the last months, so bear with me. I remember FTC used to have an opt-in function, what happened to it? Are all forms of group DPS disabled now? Couldn't ZOS still keep it opt-in, which I think would be an acceptable compromise?

As far as I know, FTC's version of this is a long-standing thing that uses API info which has been around forever. In this instance, an add-on was using specific API data that ZOS inadvertently added recently (I think it was in Update 7/Imperial City) and have now removed. As long as FTC hasn't changed the info it was using to start with, in theory it should still work.

The FTC damage sharing option is super buggy and not worth using, also doesn't show a lot of useful info like total group DPS and your percentage of contribution to the fight.

omfgitsbatman

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Guild sales info is already public, just a time consuming hassle to keep track of manually. DPS and HPS are not public info. I think it is as simple as that. If ZOS ever make DPS public or optionally public via game setting, I think GroupDamage addon would be fine. But as long as it is private info, players should make the choice themselves to share it. And there are multiple existing addons that give you ways to share your DPS and HPS numbers with the group.

Yes, guild sales is public information. Master merchant takes these sales and provides averages for sales items and ranks people based on recent sales. All of this you could painstakingly figure out. You can basically replace a few words and say the exact same sentence about GroupDamage, especially in small groups where it matters the most. You can figure out approximately what damage people are doing using a calculator and a stopwatch.

People argue that group dps meters are used by elitists who only want to run with top tier dps and kick out people who do not meet their minimum. Master Merchant leads to the exact same situation. I am in 2 trade guilds that have minimum sales requirements. If you do not meet their sales requirements, you get removed from the guild.

Saying all of this, I believe Master Merchant is a great addon, but I believe that is almost identical in situation to GroupDamage as far as spying. If GroupDamage was considered spying, then I see absolutely no way that Master Merchant isn't. They both take information that can be figured out using other methods and package them conveniently.

If I actually think about it, I get way more offended that people know how much money I'm making than I do with how much damage I'm doing. Yes, you can look at the guild sales, but who is going to go through a trade guild's history with a calculator and notebook and add up all of my sales over the past week? nobody... So, without master Merchant, my wealth or lack there of would be MUCH more obscure.

I just can't see a difference.

maxjapank

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

...I get way more offended that people know how much money I'm making than I do with how much damage I'm doing...I just can't see a difference.

People are different. Nothing wrong with that. There is another poll by the way. A simple one about wanting Group Damage or Not wanting Group Damage. It's split almost 50/50. Very interesting. But I still think that having an Option to share info would gather greater support from both sides.

KallistaBlackheart

said new poll. go vote.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243354/do-you-want-group-damage-to-return#latest

Khaos_Bane

The two addons are completely different, the comparison isn't valid at all.

timidobserver

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

The two addons are completely different, the comparison isn't valid at all.

Sure it is. People get kicked from guilds over public guild trader data. People get kicked from groups over public combat data.

MissBizz

Group damage was "spying" on people's DPS. Something that you cannot find any recorded values of in the base game UI.

MM takes values that are recorded and viewable in the base game UI (guild sales logs), and put it in a handy little record keeping window.

[EDIT] To be honest, I didn't care about that group damage add-on. If someone yelled at me for my lack of DPS/HPS I'd promptly have some snippy words for them and put them on ignore. Just saying my thoughts on how MM isn't spying.

I honestly think this thread was started to get group damage back, not to ruin MM. But hey, it could happen and I'd be quite unhappy.

anitajoneb17_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

The two addons are completely different, the comparison isn't valid at all.

Sure it is. People get kicked from guilds over public guild trader data. People get kicked from groups over public combat data.

ZOS (Mr. Chip) stated that the problem with GroupDamage was with PUGs, not friends' groups nor guilds' groups, because people are free to choose to join guilds with shared values.
MM doesn't (nor the game's interface) let you see sales figures OUTSIDE OF YOUR GUILDS. It's not like anyone or everyone in the game can snoop on them.
And many guilds don't require a minimum sales volume : you're free to join one of them.

GD on the opposite shows EVERYONE's DPS, simply based on location, regardless of group, guild, friendlist status.

That's ONE of the points where the comparison is not valid at all.

.

timidobserver

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

The two addons are completely different, the comparison isn't valid at all.

Sure it is. People get kicked from guilds over public guild trader data. People get kicked from groups over public combat data.

ZOS (Mr. Chip) stated that the problem with GroupDamage was with PUGs, not friends' groups nor guilds' groups, because people are free to choose to join guilds with shared values.
MM (nor the game's interface) lets you see sales figures OUTSIDE OF YOUR GUILDS. It's not like anyone or everyone in the game can snoop on them.
And many guilds don't require a minimum sales volume : you're free to join one of them.

GD on the opposite shows EVERYONE's DPS, simply based on location, regardless of group, guild, friendlist status.

That's ONE of the points where the comparison is not valid at all.

.

Most trade guilds are basically pugs(pick up guilds.)

In my book being group kicked and guild kicked are on the same level. It is difficult and time consuming to make gold in ESO without a trade guild. Being kicked for wasting a guild spot is wrong.

Woeler

Anyone fall off the moral high ground and break his leg yet?

Bfish22090

plz bring this add on back, kthx

anitajoneb17_ESO

MissBizz wrote: »

I honestly think this thread was started to get group damage back, not to ruin MM. But hey, it could happen and I'd be quite unhappy.

Don't worry. Everyone with half a brain can see the "purpose" of this "comparison"... MM won't disappear based on that.

.

MissBizz

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

I honestly think this thread was started to get group damage back, not to ruin MM. But hey, it could happen and I'd be quite unhappy.

Don't worry. Everyone with half a brain can see the "purpose" of this "comparison"... MM won't disappear based on that.

.

The forums are a VERY strange place though. Anything could happen here lol.

ZOS_GregoryV

As previously mentioned, this is just a friendly reminder:

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Please remember to be respectful and constructive at all times on our forums, and help us maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all.

coolmodi

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

I honestly think this thread was started to get group damage back, not to ruin MM. But hey, it could happen and I'd be quite unhappy.

Don't worry. Everyone with half a brain can see the "purpose" of this "comparison"... MM won't disappear based on that.

The best thing is it also shows the hypocrisy of some people

Bogdan_Kobzar

.

KallistaBlackheart

coolmodi wrote: »

The best thing is it also shows the hypocrisy of some people

it also shows the total lack of understanding concerning what privacy actually means.....

Mojmir

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

said new poll. go vote.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243354/do-you-want-group-damage-to-return#latest

I don't wanna vote,ppl will see what I voted

KallistaBlackheart

Mojmir wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

said new poll. go vote.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/243354/do-you-want-group-damage-to-return#latest

I don't wanna vote,ppl will see what I voted

lol. this one is simple and anonymous you silly. they thought about your PRIVACY.

KallistaBlackheart

also go vote in this one

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/242468/dps-meters-yes-or-no/p1

little more of a breakdown, i stated in thread that it was too much of one but have since been swayed.

Cherryblossom

eliisra wrote: »

Sorry, but this thread is a bit silly.

I get that people want the group dmg addon back. I never had problems with it. But this stuff, basic sales info, isn't even comparable.

You can already see people's sales and donations in guild history, regardless of addon. So that's not sensitive information, according to ZoS.

Who the hell gets emotionally provoked or feels uncomfortable when someone spies on their "materials" anyway lol? Likely no one. You can spy on people's loot in dungeons to, with addons. But no one gives a crap about that either. These things aren't related to a persons character and it's performance, it's not very personal, therefore no one takes offence and it's allowed to continue in ESO.

Spying on peoples equipped gear, attributes and stats as well as outgoing dps or healing, that's on a whole different level and comes with psychological fear attached. People know that type of spying results in them being judged, measured and even pushed aside.

But no one is going to completely dismiss your entire character, because sales where a little low that week.

However you are completely wrong, many of the trading guild do actively remove players who do not hit their weekly targets. This actually happens, however I'm yet to be in a group in any MMO where someone who's DPS is just below par is kicked from a group.

So in my experience DPS meters actually improve group performance, but Sales histories do actually discriminate.

Cherryblossom

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

As previously mentioned, this is just a friendly reminder:

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Please remember to be respectful and constructive at all times on our forums, and help us maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all.

What would be nice @ZOS_AlanG @ZOS_GregoryV would be a response from ZOS on the issue, I don't think anyone is suggesting that MM should be removed, but ZOS should look at it's consistency when making knee jerk reactions.

There are many within the community that find Group Damage an Invaluable tool, some nonsense about people being kicked due to lack of DPS is not a good enough reason for it's removal.
Unless of course you can show data which supports this hypothesis! I.e. a sizable increase in number of Kicks from groups once this addon was available!
I would suggest this research was not done before the decision which supports my Knee Jerk reaction Hypothesis.

KallistaBlackheart

Cherryblossom wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

As previously mentioned, this is just a friendly reminder:

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Please remember to be respectful and constructive at all times on our forums, and help us maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all.

What would be nice @ZOS_AlanG @ZOS_GregoryV would be a response from ZOS on the issue, I don't think anyone is suggesting that MM should be removed, but ZOS should look at it's consistency when making knee jerk reactions.

There are many within the community that find Group Damage an Invaluable tool, some nonsense about people being kicked due to lack of DPS is not a good enough reason for it's removal.
Unless of course you can show data which supports this hypothesis! I.e. a sizable increase in number of Kicks from groups once this addon was available!
I would suggest this research was not done before the decision which supports my Knee Jerk reaction Hypothesis.

agreed.

Inarre

QQ

blackcom90

Guys you are missing the point... Toxic players that judge you on your dps will not stop with this addon because often their dps it's not so great too.
-If i go with a group of pug and one of them has a low dps i help him and try to cover with my dps that usually it's higher.
-If you enter a vet dg and do some experiment you can see that with an overall dps of 12-16k you can finish it. I
-if you get kicked because you can finish a vet dg it's pretty much possible that the other dps it's not so great too and will accuse you.

Plus who is very competitive will not watch the dps of others but his own dps and see if it's good. Only in trials we need the group damage to watch over the group and regulate the group. NOT KICKING, but passing the build to the others. This in reality doesn't append often because it's really rare to form a pug group for a trial and if you do you are ready to wipe.
Who do trials like to be competitive himself so he will use group damage to see who has a better dps than him and improve.

blocking Group damage did not remove the toxic players, but damaged the groups that want to compete between members to grow together.

And pls... don't say "i went to trials with a group and got kicked because i did only 9k of dps" because you know that a trial it's an end game contents and require you to meet certain standards. If the group it's not a utterly rare full pugs training group, but a group that want to finish the trial and you go knowing that your dps it's not p to it; it's you that are not honest towards the group.

potirondb16_ESO

Fairly, group damage is a reallly good add-on to run with friend or for your own improvement.

Worst issue about this add-on is not function related tho. From my experience good or ''elite'' (not elitest) player accept to run most content with almost anyone. I know I don't have issue running CoA, Wgt with anyone, even if sometimes the run are going to be longer then expected

So to be fair with this add-on there should be a statement to agree or refuse and it should be run only by group leader. But I do hope people are realising that it's not their dps that will get them kicked out but the personnality of whom they run with who sometimes have *** dps themself So for all of you out there who want to acces more content keep on working hard, don't start new content when you are tired and you will see good player will recongnise your will to improve !

Take care guys