Spying on Material Trade(MM) is fine but Spying on Group DPS is not?

Julianos

Alcast wrote: »

Spying with addons like Master Merchant to see sales of people and get the average sellingprice etc: ALLOWED
Spying with addons like GroupDamage to see the DPS of players to help them improve etc: NOT ALLOWED
Any logic behind this?
Group Damage Addon was anyway only used in Progression guilds where people can not even enter who do not want to show their dps...so please...re-enable it

Because elitist azzholes that they dont know anything better than just pressing 5 buttons in their life go and yell to other nice people below them in the dps meter list "LEARN TO PLAAAAYYYY" and whole game just turn to a dps race/*** race.. And some people think they cant play and stop playing with frustration. I withnessed that in WoW

Good call ZOS.

actosh

tengri wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Better stay bad then get better right? I mean why do you even worry about those addons because you will never be able(nor do you want to I guess) to even join elitist grps with that attitude

Not the point.
Ofc I want to get better and monitor and optimize my performance. Big emphasis on my.
I decide what and when and to whom I show my performance statistics. And only I.

Well, your buffs are shown and YOU cant decide if they are or not ^^
Your Sellings are shown and YOU cant decide if they are or not ^^

Yes, u can take couple of hours to look at guild history and calculate it, but nobody would do that, as long as they have MM and they can kick and harras ppl that dont fullfill a certain amount of Gold per day/week/Month ^^

So u can say disable directly anything that displays things u dont want to show

Alcast

Axorn wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Spying with addons like Master Merchant to see sales of people and get the average sellingprice etc: ALLOWED
Spying with addons like GroupDamage to see the DPS of players to help them improve etc: NOT ALLOWED
Any logic behind this?
Group Damage Addon was anyway only used in Progression guilds where people can not even enter who do not want to show their dps...so please...re-enable it

Because elitist azzholes that they dont know anything better than just pressing 5 buttons in their life go and yell to other nice people below them in the dps meter list "LEARN TO PLAAAAYYYY" and whole game just turn to a dps race/*** race.. And some people think they cant play and stop playing with frustration. I withnessed that in WoW

Good call ZOS.

I do not think, and I do not hope that we in ESO have such a toxic environment

Enodoc

How much personal sales detail does Master Merchant give that is not available in-game already? For example, I can go to the Guild Sales History and find out what everyone in each of my guilds has sold, and for how much.

Xantaria

Enodoc wrote: »

How much personal sales detail does Master Merchant give that is not available in-game already? For example, I can go to the Guild Sales History and find out what everyone in each of my guilds has sold, and for how much.

And do you do that? no. you would have to constantly check it every minute and write down every single sale.

Anhedonie

Alcast wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Spying with addons like Master Merchant to see sales of people and get the average sellingprice etc: ALLOWED
Spying with addons like GroupDamage to see the DPS of players to help them improve etc: NOT ALLOWED
Any logic behind this?
Group Damage Addon was anyway only used in Progression guilds where people can not even enter who do not want to show their dps...so please...re-enable it

Because elitist azzholes that they dont know anything better than just pressing 5 buttons in their life go and yell to other nice people below them in the dps meter list "LEARN TO PLAAAAYYYY" and whole game just turn to a dps race/*** race.. And some people think they cant play and stop playing with frustration. I withnessed that in WoW

Good call ZOS.

I do not think, and I do not hope that we in ESO have such a toxic environment

Some guilds kick magplar damage dealers from party, because they are considered bad. I mean, even without giving them a chance.

Jura23

No big deal IMO. In progression guilds, ppl can share each others numbers in voice chat. In PUG groups, you don't need this anyway. At least I can tell easily if somebody's doing their role or not.

Efaritay

Alcast wrote: »

KhajiitiLizard wrote: »

Why not show overall group DPS? It's a good compromise. So it's the group to blame and not a just one player.

Why blame? We are looking to improve players, we do not "blame" a single player
It was also nice to compare my damage to others to see where I do better and where I do worse.

I Believe you to be a great player Alcast. The idea that you want to help improve other peoples builds / DPS is truly great. But there are many other people that take the opposite approach and bash other players for the DPS ruining their gaming experience.

On a competitive scale I think it is essential to see group DPS to help improve and keep EP EU kickin' butts!

But for people who just play on a casual basis I can see why they don't want to share their DPS.

To resolve this issue to combat both sides could be a handy toggle. But unfortunately, this will never happen

Keep up the good work Alcast

Volkodav

DerKirito wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

KhajiitiLizard wrote: »

Why not show overall group DPS? It's a good compromise. So it's the group to blame and not a just one player.

Why blame? We are looking to improve players, we do not "blame" a single player
It was also nice to compare my damage to others to see where I do better and where I do worse.

Yeah right.
Because something like that is not used to blame. Never... If you want to improve players, ask them to link there DMG after the fight. You could diskuss it based on there free will than. But with that addon, everbody could easily dismiss players just because they had one bad fight. Good it is gone. It destroys the civilized behaviour of the community in a way.

Why would I kick people in my own guild? People that manage to get into the guild do have good dps no matter what. But still, everyone can optimize their dps and that is where the addon is helpful.
We sort out noobs long before we even start using that addon via Recruitment Application and based on our members experience with those people.

I do not run with random pugs. I do not need an addon to see that noobs have bad dps.

tengri wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

why not an "opt out" option?

Because "opt out" would actually mean "opt in or kick".

I really like that Z killed off this addon and showed all those self-proclaimed elitist wanting to easily judge other players performance where Z wants them... *points outside*.
Go play with yourself over there.

lul
Better stay bad then get better right? I mean why do you even worry about those addons because you will never be able(nor do you want to I guess) to even join elitist grps with that attitude

I'll tell you something. The one thing I will NEVER want to be is part of are these so called "elitist" groups.Anyone who thinks they are better than others,which is what "elitist" means,isnt worth playing along side.

Live and let live. There are some super casuals, there are some progress players. And if someone blames a group for DPS/Heals/Aggro loss/[whatever you can find to blame someone] it's simply because that person is a ***.
And Progress Player =/= Elitist.

Please try not to put everyone into just the two groups.Especially "super casuals". I surely am no casual player.I play every day,sometimes for up to five hours.
Also,while I consider myself a progressive player,I am not an elitist. Having said that I have no problems with returning this add on that is spoken of.
My comment was about those who bray about being a cool elitist. That isnt a title to be proud of.A progressive player,maybe,but not an elitist one.
To each their own opinions,right? :}

MaxTM

Volkodav wrote: »

DerKirito wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

KhajiitiLizard wrote: »

Why not show overall group DPS? It's a good compromise. So it's the group to blame and not a just one player.

Why blame? We are looking to improve players, we do not "blame" a single player
It was also nice to compare my damage to others to see where I do better and where I do worse.

Yeah right.
Because something like that is not used to blame. Never... If you want to improve players, ask them to link there DMG after the fight. You could diskuss it based on there free will than. But with that addon, everbody could easily dismiss players just because they had one bad fight. Good it is gone. It destroys the civilized behaviour of the community in a way.

Why would I kick people in my own guild? People that manage to get into the guild do have good dps no matter what. But still, everyone can optimize their dps and that is where the addon is helpful.
We sort out noobs long before we even start using that addon via Recruitment Application and based on our members experience with those people.

I do not run with random pugs. I do not need an addon to see that noobs have bad dps.

tengri wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

why not an "opt out" option?

Because "opt out" would actually mean "opt in or kick".

I really like that Z killed off this addon and showed all those self-proclaimed elitist wanting to easily judge other players performance where Z wants them... *points outside*.
Go play with yourself over there.

lul
Better stay bad then get better right? I mean why do you even worry about those addons because you will never be able(nor do you want to I guess) to even join elitist grps with that attitude

I'll tell you something. The one thing I will NEVER want to be is part of are these so called "elitist" groups.Anyone who thinks they are better than others,which is what "elitist" means,isnt worth playing along side.

Live and let live. There are some super casuals, there are some progress players. And if someone blames a group for DPS/Heals/Aggro loss/[whatever you can find to blame someone] it's simply because that person is a ***.
And Progress Player =/= Elitist.

Please try not to put everyone into just the two groups.Especially "super casuals". I surely am no casual player.I play every day,sometimes for up to five hours.
Also,while I consider myself a progressive player,I am not an elitist. Having said that I have no problems with returning this add on that is spoken of.
My comment was about those who bray about being a cool elitist. That isnt a title to be proud of.A progressive player,maybe,but not an elitist one.
To each their own opinions,right? :}

I do not put everybody in two groups. I just said that these groups exist.
But yes you're right I still want it to return

tengri

actosh wrote: »

Well, your buffs are shown and YOU cant decide if they are or not ^^

Indeed, this is another thing that angers me greatly.
How the *** would some random dude know what buffs I have and what foot/drink I consumed an hour ago or which mundus stone is active.
I get it, there are some concessions to be made for the sake of PvP balance - however I honestly think all those long term buff showing does give away too much information too easily, too.

Your Sellings are shown and YOU cant decide if they are or not ^^

Yes, u can take couple of hours to look at guild history and calculate it, but nobody would do that, as long as they have MM and they can kick and harras ppl that dont fullfill a certain amount of Gold per day/week/Month ^^

This one I have no problem with actually.
Completely my decision alone whether I join a (trade) guild which in turn causes these statistics to get out... or not.

Enodoc

Xantaria wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

How much personal sales detail does Master Merchant give that is not available in-game already? For example, I can go to the Guild Sales History and find out what everyone in each of my guilds has sold, and for how much.

And do you do that? no. you would have to constantly check it every minute and write down every single sale.

My point is that this information is already available and visible in-game, and that you could do it if you wanted to. MM just moves it to a different location, does some calculations on it, and collates its history in one place. Trade guild leaders who are kicking people based on gold per week would be able to do that anyway if MM didn't exist and they did the calculations themselves.

DPS, on the other hand, is not readily available or visible in-game. Unless MM is doing something with data that cannot be seen in-game, I don't think such a comparison is very useful.

Volkodav

DerKirito wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

DerKirito wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

SorataArisugawa wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

KhajiitiLizard wrote: »

Why not show overall group DPS? It's a good compromise. So it's the group to blame and not a just one player.

Why blame? We are looking to improve players, we do not "blame" a single player
It was also nice to compare my damage to others to see where I do better and where I do worse.

Yeah right.
Because something like that is not used to blame. Never... If you want to improve players, ask them to link there DMG after the fight. You could diskuss it based on there free will than. But with that addon, everbody could easily dismiss players just because they had one bad fight. Good it is gone. It destroys the civilized behaviour of the community in a way.

Why would I kick people in my own guild? People that manage to get into the guild do have good dps no matter what. But still, everyone can optimize their dps and that is where the addon is helpful.
We sort out noobs long before we even start using that addon via Recruitment Application and based on our members experience with those people.

I do not run with random pugs. I do not need an addon to see that noobs have bad dps.

tengri wrote: »

whsprwind wrote: »

why not an "opt out" option?

Because "opt out" would actually mean "opt in or kick".

I really like that Z killed off this addon and showed all those self-proclaimed elitist wanting to easily judge other players performance where Z wants them... *points outside*.
Go play with yourself over there.

lul
Better stay bad then get better right? I mean why do you even worry about those addons because you will never be able(nor do you want to I guess) to even join elitist grps with that attitude

I'll tell you something. The one thing I will NEVER want to be is part of are these so called "elitist" groups.Anyone who thinks they are better than others,which is what "elitist" means,isnt worth playing along side.

Live and let live. There are some super casuals, there are some progress players. And if someone blames a group for DPS/Heals/Aggro loss/[whatever you can find to blame someone] it's simply because that person is a ***.
And Progress Player =/= Elitist.

Please try not to put everyone into just the two groups.Especially "super casuals". I surely am no casual player.I play every day,sometimes for up to five hours.
Also,while I consider myself a progressive player,I am not an elitist. Having said that I have no problems with returning this add on that is spoken of.
My comment was about those who bray about being a cool elitist. That isnt a title to be proud of.A progressive player,maybe,but not an elitist one.
To each their own opinions,right? :}

I do not put everybody in two groups. I just said that these groups exist.
But yes you're right I still want it to return

I can see no reason for it not to be available to players.The things that get nerfed or removed altogether puzzles me.Almost as if they want us to be up in arms sometimes.

Tankqull

Alcast wrote: »

Spying with addons like Master Merchant to see sales of people and get the average sellingprice etc: ALLOWED
Spying with addons like GroupDamage to see the DPS of players to help them improve etc: NOT ALLOWED
Any logic behind this?
Group Damage Addon was anyway only used in Progression guilds where people can not even enter who do not want to show their dps...so please...re-enable it

totally on your side, change groupdmg to show only the impersonaliced DPS on each specific boss done averaged over every player attacking said boss with only a few examples presentet in a nice chart displaying the max and minimum done dmg of one unanmed player out of 5k players...(or what ever the number of players using GD is ).

i hope you now realize the difference

alkoriak

Just for curiosity: How does addon damage work when one player raises 2 other players in a boss fight while the other dps is just dpsing?

TheTwistedRune

Zinaroth wrote: »

Completely agree, let's ruin MM aswell while we're at it. Oh and let us not forget buff tracker addons, I am able to see other peoples buffs with those, including if they have eaten food in dungeons. Look at my "spying" on everyone.

To get back to GroupDamage:

Aslong as people are allowed to derp around and waste others time without any demand for self-improvement, they won't release more challenging content . If the population increases in skill then it demands more of the developers, that is what happened in WoW and they are getting better and better raids. But because people do not want to learn or to improve by other people being able to point out their flaws based on statistics, we will never have that developement, and ZOS is perfectly fine with this because it requires less of them as developers. They should not cater to casuals, they should cater to the players who know what they're doing. If people have nothing to aspire to the game dies and all that will be left is solo content and quests, and then this game dies as an MMO.

The problem here is you think that playing the "properly" is by min maxing etc. Not everybody agrees with you. Unless they ask, not everybody wants you telling them they can get more DPS this way, or that they are doing this wrong. Why? Because they probably don't care. What you would call a waste of time other people would call fun.

Not everybody plays for the same reason you do.

ZOS will cater to those who make them the most money. As they should.

Alcast

alkoriak wrote: »

Just for curiosity: How does addon damage work when one player raises 2 other players in a boss fight while the other dps is just dpsing?

You will get less dps when you have to res somebody. I mean everyone who has a brain knows that. Or did I understand your question wrong?

alkoriak

Alcast wrote: »

alkoriak wrote: »

Just for curiosity: How does addon damage work when one player raises 2 other players in a boss fight while the other dps is just dpsing?

You will get less dps when you have to res somebody. I mean everyone who has a brain knows that. Or did I understand your question wrong?

No it's what i meant, I was hoping the addon stops calculating dps in raising phase because I saw many people brag about their dps when they did zero for helping the other players in the team, they just dps and think they are good while a better dps has to raise the dead. Anyway I don't think it's a problem in high-end teams and raids but that dps meter can be abused by many to spread false info.

The best should be to make it optional so high-end pve guilds can still use it for their progression and hope nobody gets kicked because he doesn't want to share that info in other guilds.

Instant

Alcast wrote: »

Spying with addons like Master Merchant to see sales of people and get the average sellingprice etc: ALLOWED
Spying with addons like GroupDamage to see the DPS of players to help them improve etc: NOT ALLOWED
Any logic behind this?

Group Damage Addon was anyway only used in Progression guilds where people can not even enter who do not want to show their dps...so please...re-enable it

I also do not think that we have such an unhealthy environment where people are being kicked for not having certain dps. (A person who cannot fulfil their role and does not listen to advice is another thing tho)

I agree. I don't want to live in fear of getting kicked from my trade guild because im not one of the top sellers.

MaxwellC

@Alcast
You forget this is ZoS we're talking about, logic on resonates when a minority wants something removed in-comparison to the majority.

Junipus

actosh wrote: »

tengri wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Better stay bad then get better right? I mean why do you even worry about those addons because you will never be able(nor do you want to I guess) to even join elitist grps with that attitude

Not the point.
Ofc I want to get better and monitor and optimize my performance. Big emphasis on my.
I decide what and when and to whom I show my performance statistics. And only I.

Well, your buffs are shown and YOU cant decide if they are or not ^^
Your Sellings are shown and YOU cant decide if they are or not ^^

Yes, u can take couple of hours to look at guild history and calculate it, but nobody would do that, as long as they have MM and they can kick and harras ppl that dont fullfill a certain amount of Gold per day/week/Month ^^

So u can say disable directly anything that displays things u dont want to show

Having been in some of the top (most active and profitable) trade guilds in the EU server, I can pretty much say this doesn't happen. They go off activity and then sales. If you join but sell nothing or try to for a month then you're not really helping the guild. If you go offline for 3 weeks without notice then you're not helping the guild. If you sell stuff and continue to put up things for sale and donate to guild banks then it makes no sense to kick.

That's the difference with MM over group dps.

Correct me if I'm wrong though that FTC has an option to toggle on your dps to share with the group? I know it's outdated now but I've seen it work with guides in dailies and PvP

AlnilamE

Alcast wrote: »

Spying with addons like Master Merchant to see sales of people and get the average sellingprice etc: ALLOWED
Spying with addons like GroupDamage to see the DPS of players to help them improve etc: NOT ALLOWED
Any logic behind this?

Group Damage Addon was anyway only used in Progression guilds where people can not even enter who do not want to show their dps...so please...re-enable it

I also do not think that we have such an unhealthy environment where people are being kicked for not having certain dps. (A person who cannot fulfil their role and does not listen to advice is another thing tho)

Did your FTC stop working?

Nifty2g

because this game isn't competitive

Reznique

Grp DPS addons (like SKADA in WOW) actually make dungeons and especially trials much more fun and competitive IMO.

From my experience, people that are offended when you ask them about their DPS- its pretty low


P.S.- have fun farming vICP with 8k DPS

Florial

TheTwistedRune wrote: »

The problem here is you think that playing the "properly" is by min maxing etc. Not everybody agrees with you. Unless they ask, not everybody wants you telling them they can get more DPS this way, or that they are doing this wrong. Why? Because they probably don't care. What you would call a waste of time other people would call fun.

Not everybody plays for the same reason you do.

ZOS will cater to those who make them the most money. As they should.

Awesome post and I can't agree more. Personally, I play this game for the story, the lore, the exploration, and beauty of the virtual world. I even enjoyed muddling through Caldwell's Gold several times learning a bit more as I completed the zones. I eventually will venture more into group content once I've completed my laundry list of what I want to do solo. I've enjoyed group content in other MMOs however it quickly sours when some min/maxer is yelling at team mates in dungeons belittling them on their DPS, tanking or healing. Unfortunately these tools for "self improvement" are often not used wisely during your average group encounter. Rarely have I encountered some wise old sage in a dungeon say, "Florial, according to Recount I see you are a bit low on DPS. Can we discuss your skill sets, skill rotation after our run. Perhaps I can give you some pointers since I also play a (insert class)." The advice is more like, "U suck l2p noob, kill urself" (kick) I've found MMOs so much more mean spirited these days. Now I find it unusual when I don't get into a nasty group (speaking from my recent WoW experiences).

Don't get me wrong. I think DPS meters can be very useful. For the raiding guild, for players wishing to improve themselves. I've personally used DPS meters in most games I've played for MY self improvement. Perhaps an opt out feature would have been the best solution. Dunno. As to MM, this is such a useful tool for trading guilds. As another poster said, having active traders is vital for a successful trading guild. Guild leaders have every right to track sales, especially the guilds with very expensive traders. I belong to one very high volume trading guild and the guild leader does track our sales. Fair in my opinion and a necessary tool if you want to run a successful trading guild.

ArvenAldmeri

By you post I guess you never met those people who made this to happen. Luckily for you, sadly for those who did. There was a reason and the reason was surprisingly people being bullied because:
1. Their DPS is not high enough
2. Thier DPS is high, but lower than the other dps --> be a buffer for the other dps to boost him or go out of the group (yep, happened to me - did not even have the skill they wanted me to use).
There might be even more options. Just dont have time now to think of more.
Sadly part of our community here is so rotten that they are just gonna kick you out of dungeon/trial/guild because your DPS is not exactly what they imagine and need. Without help, with insults and "L2P" quotes.

I dont mind the option to show your dps to be there, as long as the player can decide himself/herself whether to share the DPS value or not. I had to explain you why it was probably taken down tho.

willymchilybily

i heard another DPS addon can be used and if they tick the damage number sharing option they can share damage numbers. so why is this addon so special when you have an existing addon that allows this if your group select that option.

it seems a lot like people are saying:

"no no i want to use this to help improve people"
and yet there is another addon that does exactly that.

why do you want the version/addon that can do it without the other players permission?

Xantaria

Nifty2g wrote: »

because this game isn't competitive

Any game is as competitive as its players and ONLY the players make it. You can compete in Hello Kitty Online, as long as there is people willing to compete with you.

AFrostWolf

Both lead to toxic gameplay.

With MM, If i try to sell something for a little bit more than average, I get flamed.
With MM, If i try to buy something for a little bit less, I get flamed
With Group Damage, If I don't do good enough, I get flamed.

eliisra

Sorry, but this thread is a bit silly.

I get that people want the group dmg addon back. I never had problems with it. But this stuff, basic sales info, isn't even comparable.

You can already see people's sales and donations in guild history, regardless of addon. So that's not sensitive information, according to ZoS.

Who the hell gets emotionally provoked or feels uncomfortable when someone spies on their "materials" anyway lol? Likely no one. You can spy on people's loot in dungeons to, with addons. But no one gives a crap about that either. These things aren't related to a persons character and it's performance, it's not very personal, therefore no one takes offence and it's allowed to continue in ESO.

Spying on peoples equipped gear, attributes and stats as well as outgoing dps or healing, that's on a whole different level and comes with psychological fear attached. People know that type of spying results in them being judged, measured and even pushed aside.

But no one is going to completely dismiss your entire character, because sales where a little low that week.