Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!

FortheloveofKrist · January 2016

Necrelios wrote: »

Personally, I don't care about the justice system, since the moment I incur a bounty, I just logout and play some other game until it is reset. No big deal, I own a lot of other games. I can hold of for months without playing a moment of ESO if that's what it takes.

Whaaa? Why? I have a character who is a career criminal. I think the bounty is at 1.5 million. That'll take about 2 months to go down. But I play him every day. Just avoid the guards and don't carry any gold on you.

That's the life of a committed criminal.

Dositheus · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I have played a multitude of pvp games over the years. I've been playing MMOs since the days of MUDS. Honestly, good pvp (which ESO is kind of on the crappy end of right now) and a fun and engaging justice system are very nice parts of a game for creating replayability. One of the most fun parts of Age of Wushu? The Justice system with pvp in the form of being able to be either a bandit, or a constable and go hunt down criminals. And guild battles. Open world PVP in Rift was all that made it decent for me for quite some time. What did that amount to? You had to flag yourself, or engage in pvp and then you could be attacked.

BrightnessSyl · January 2016

Elloa wrote: »

I can not Vote for this, because it really depend of how this Justice System PVP is implemented in the game.
As I explain in this video below, for me it's absolutely necessary than the NON-PVP players can enjoy the Justice system without being forced to PVP. But as @Lefty_Lucy said, it can be implemented in a way to ensure that point. So why not?

However, I actually find the points made by @Joy_Division (first page) very interesting. Not sure that Zenimax should priorities that aspect of the game over some others that could be more stable and easier to develop.

Here @Lefty_Lucy my answer to your video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMppYOZSGCA&feature=youtu.be

Well said. We honestly have no idea how it would work or what stress it would put on the game. I'm really 50/50

Gidorick · January 2016

While I applaud you @Lefty_Lucy for your passionate response, I disagree with your conclusions. You feel that the justice system PVP should just be used as a way to bring dueling and small scale PVP all across Tamriel in the way you have described it. While sure, it can be used in such a way, there are many thieves who would use the PVP as an opportunity to see how much they can get away while they avoid PVP. Justice system PVP should be a MEANS to and end.... it should be an end in and of itself. I think the whole small scale PVP dueling really should be implemented... but not through the Justice System. The tabbard idea that @Elloa suggested would actually be pretty cool for that...

The amount of opting out players want to do in this game baffles me. I'm surprised we didn't get a bunch of threads when the Justice System was first introduced with people wanting to opt-out of the Guard and Bounty component of the justice system while still being allowed to steal items without any kind of consequence.

But I digress... Allowing players to loot, steal, pickpocket and kill without having fear of the PVP justice system is just... well... missing the point of the PVP portion of the justice system. Adding PVP would have added a layer of depth and complexity to the Justice System that would make it so that players couldn't simply learn the ways to dodge responsibility for their crimes. They would have to contend with players who are actively hunting them. There would be an element of fear and excitement that many players just don't receive from the current iteration of the justice system.

That being said... I understand that if players could be killed for stealing a potato it would just turn into a gank fest with powerful players running trains on lower level players. So... I see that there is a need for some checks and balances along the lines of what you suggest but your suggestions are too binary.

To prepare for justice system PVP ZOS would need to do the following

Implement a toggle or stealing AND pickpocketing so players can completely avoid these activities if they want.
Rework the heat system so that player must commit MANY more smaller crimes to get to the higher levels of heat.
Add a Wanted level to the heat system between Notorious and Fugitive
Calm the guards down! Make it so that a player is only a Fugitive if they flee from the guards while Wanted or commit murder. As long as a player is not a Fugitive, they shouldn't be Kill-on-Sight. Stealing an apple, and running from the guards shouldn't automatically make the player kill on sight.
Oh, and guards, while tough... should be able to be killed.

And then player enforcers can have 2 levels of participation also. They can stop players of a Wanted level to collect the bounty and they can attack Fugitives Players. In this system, players would have to act deliberately by committing multiple acts of wanton acts of mayhem to get to a Fugitive level and it's not a binary opt-out making any players safe from any player dealt consequence.

Most of the above concepts are derived from a broader Justice system concept that I have been pecking away at for a long while which would include zone based Infamy levels so a player can be a Fugitive in one zone but upstanding in another... but that is all for another thread.

Again... players should NOT be able to flat out opt-out of Justice System PVP. I really think that is missing the point of the Justice System PVP. The Justice System shouldn't just be used to open up Tamriel-wide PVP, it should be an engaging part of the PVP system.

Oh, and all of this is from a player who is a self-admitted PVE only player who actively avoids PVP.

Joy_Division · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

[
@Joy_Division - I want to thank you for what you said (Post #156, page 6). Very well said. I see your point of view and I respect it like crazy. You have excellent points. In the end, our votes will differ, but I think we see each other's perspectives pretty clearly. Thanks again.

@Lefty_Lucy We do! You presented the other side clearly and fairly and I appreciate your passion for the game.

mrdaveqc · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I said I'm not for it but to be honest , I'm all for it if they give the chance to pve guy to not be forced to pvp and not in city

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Gidorick wrote: »

While I applaud you @Lefty_Lucy for your passionate response, I disagree with your conclusions. You feel that the justice system PVP should just be used as a way to bring dueling and small scale PVP all across Tamriel in the way you have described it. While sure, it can be used in such a way, there are many thieves who would use the PVP as an opportunity to see how much they can get away while they avoid PVP. Justice system PVP should be a MEANS to and end.... it should be an end in and of itself. I think the whole small scale PVP dueling really should be implemented... but not through the Justice System. The tabbard idea that @Elloa suggested would actually be pretty cool for that...

The amount of opting out players want to do in this game baffles me. I'm surprised we didn't get a bunch of threads when the Justice System was first introduced with people wanting to opt-out of the Guard and Bounty component of the justice system while still being allowed to steal items without any kind of consequence.

But I digress... Allowing players to loot, steal, pickpocket and kill without having fear of the PVP justice system is just... well... missing the point of the PVP portion of the justice system. Adding PVP would have added a layer of depth and complexity to the Justice System that would make it so that players couldn't simply learn the ways to dodge responsibility for their crimes. They would have to contend with players who are actively hunting them. There would be an element of fear and excitement that many players just don't receive from the current iteration of the justice system.

That being said... I understand that if players could be killed for stealing a potato it would just turn into a gank fest with powerful players running trains on lower level players. So... I see that there is a need for some checks and balances along the lines of what you suggest but your suggestions are too binary.

To prepare for justice system PVP ZOS would need to do the following
Implement a toggle or stealing AND pickpocketing so players can completely avoid these activities if they want.

Rework the heat system so that player must commit MANY more smaller crimes to get to the higher levels of heat.

Add a Wanted level to the heat system between Notorious and Fugitive

Calm the guards down! Make it so that a player is only a Fugitive if they flee from the guards while Wanted or commit murder. As long as a player is not a Fugitive, they shouldn't be Kill-on-Sight. Stealing an apple, and running from the guards shouldn't automatically make the player kill on sight.

Oh, and guards, while tough... should be able to be killed.

And then player enforcers can have 2 levels of participation also. They can stop players of a Wanted level to collect the bounty and they can attack Fugitives Players. In this system, players would have to act deliberately by committing multiple acts of wanton acts of mayhem to get to a Fugitive level and it's not a binary opt-out making any players safe from any player dealt consequence.

Most of the above concepts are derived from a broader Justice system concept that I have been pecking away at for a long while which would include zone based Infamy levels so a player can be a Fugitive in one zone but upstanding in another... but that is all for another thread.

Again... players should NOT be able to flat out opt-out of Justice System PVP. I really think that is missing the point of the Justice System PVP. The Justice System shouldn't just be used to open up Tamriel-wide PVP, it should be an engaging part of the PVP system.

Oh, and all of this is from a player who is a self-admitted PVE only player who actively avoids PVP.

Good write-up. I can imagine the wish for being able to opt out of any Justice PvP system. However, I also agree with Gidorick: in its original announcement, ZOS did not want this: they wanted stealing and murderering to be risky, instead of the cakewalk it is now. They did want to limit Justice PvP by having it only apply to players with a really high bounty and other tresholds. But I can't help but feel that the more casual part of the community 'hijacked' the system after its first implementation, now make a claim to it, saying: don't add PvP (while that was part of its initial design), and ZOS is making a kneejerk. I'm casual, but I like this kind of hardline content in my games. All in all it's balls itching, but understandable simultaneously.

For all the tresholds and rulesets that can be applied to limit potential Justice PvP, I'd still be in favour of (on top of all those) limiting the system to a DLC zone (with battle-leveling). Then people will know, upon entering the zone: things work differently here. Obviously some people won't like the idea of Justice PvP, but there could still be tresholds to it (such as bounty, flagging, toggles for not committing crimes, 'warrants' so Enforcers can't just crack any building and start fighting, smart zone design to split fights). I fear the day when it will become clear that all we're ever getting is themepark rides, because innovation or trying new and daring systems is risky.

Elloa · January 2016

@Gidorick and @petraeus1

Why a super fun part of the game should be restricted for PVPer only? Why everyone else should be forbidden to steal, murder some NPCS, run from the guards.
So many players enjoy this in a very casual innocent way (not in a "I'm making tons of money way"). Why those players should be punished to enjoy this?

My son of 11, when he plays ESO, what does he do? He goes arround Davon's Watch, stealing things and escaping guards. Woudl he enjoy that if he was hunted by Sypher instead? That would just be so frustrating and humiliating! Okay, its not a true ESO player, of course not. But still...This show my point, that there is absolutely no reason to punish a LARGE part of the population.

PVE players'hijacked' the system after its first implementation? Well, whatever... Maybe the PVP community should stop to believe they ARE ESO. There is so much players that HATE PVP, that are bad at PVP; or that want to choose when to and when to not PVP that play ESO. So much more than players that actually do PVP. Why all those players suddendly should see a whole fun system removed from them, while its totally possible to make the Justice System enjoyable for both side?

You know how much PVP is unbalanced. How much difference there is between a good PVPer and a bad one. And I'm even not speaking about Champion Points or gear here. Simply skills. What a player like me would stand as chance against a @Lefty_Lucy or @Sypher : ZERO!
A lot of players that truely enjoy stealing and the Justice system in general are super casual players, that are in no way into the min-maxim idea. Even if those players would have enjoyed be hunted by other players, and would have loved the PVP component of the game, they would not be happy anymore once they meet the true PVPers of ESO. That may be a MAJOR tunroff for a LOT of players.

PVP in ESO is too imbalanced due to the huge gap between a skilled player that master the game and a non skilled player. PVPers should remember that. And because of that, PVP can not be introduced in area that a lot of casual players enjoy.

UNLESS there is a clear way to OPT for it or not. Such as my idea of tabard.

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@Elloa

I totally get your point and I wouldn't want to scare people away from trying the Justice System, nor would I want pro PvPers gank and smack new players. It's just that the system was initially designed to allow for such things to happen. Not to so that PvE players couldn't steal, murder, etc., but for it to be risky should you go too far (get like a 5000 bounty). That risk is what would have made it interesting for me - currently committing any crime is laughably easy to get away with. Now several people are saying they don't want PvP at all, which irks me, because Justice PvP was part of the original design of the system.

There are many ways to restrict Justice PvP, but opting out of it by flagging is not one I'd consider. I'd much rather have your 'pirate city' idea (with battle-leveling), so people know there is a zone where there's Justice PvP, for everyone. There would still be rules, you wouldn't be killable for stealing a bread, but you would for stealing everything from the bank and killing two people. There would still be tabards for visibility etc.

In its current state, the Justice System appeals to more casual PvE players, but not to me and many others cause there's no risk involved. That was supposed to be remedied by Justice PvP. Without it, I don't really care for the system. I appreciate you protecting the fun of your son and many others who like the system as it is, I just wish the pretty sizeable minority which is into PvP would also get something so we'd both be happy.

If there really are problems, I hope ZOS explains some of them in the next ESO Live. The Justice PvP and Spellcrafting announcements felt like a bomb drop. They were my most anticipated features of the game, so despite all the great things in the blog post, I can't help but feel disappointed.

[/quote] PVE players'hijacked' the system after its first implementation? Well, whatever... Maybe the PVP community should stop to believe they ARE ESO. [/qoute]

This is not what I meant at all and very generalizing.

NeillMcAttack · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

NateAssassin wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

The only concerns i've had toward anything with the justice system, come from two experiences with it as it stands now. Doing a quest in stonefalls, battling Nords while drunk, accidentally killed a chicken, incurred a bounty. While trying to complete another quest (forget which zone), I had to kill a whole lot of soldiers on while trying to gain entry into a castle. Another player was also killing said soldiers, so I threw a heal their way, only to get a bounty, as the player was not doing the same quest, just randomly killing npc's, or trying to.
Last thing I want to to be ganked by a bounty hunter due to incidents as stated above.

If you haven't opted-in for justice-system-pvp, you won't. Simple as that.

But even then... you got those bounties by accident. What do you do ? either wait (disconnect) or pay it the a guard or a fence. If another player kills you and takes the bounty, what difference is it to you ? The only difference is that you stand a chance against a player and none against a guard.

Hmm, you can easily run away from a guard even at level 10, a VR16 player not so much.

Like, this narrow minded attitude is what the OP is trying to avoid. This place is for discussion, so,...
Couldn't the system be designed in such a way as to not give a players bounty to another player that is above or below the 5 level requirement for exp.

The point is, you can not dismiss a systems implementation, when it hasn't even been discussed how it may be implemented.

Elloa · January 2016

@patraeus
I'm also very fine with a BOUNTY limit system. So if you have a too high bounty, you would be flagged for PVP. that can be cool.
If your bounty is too high you are not very stealing in a very "casual" way anyway! Or ....just go pay your bounty!
Totally agree with this idea.

All I want, is to be sure that Casual/New players/Non PVPer can continue to enjoy a very fun part of the game.

Now regarding my second point in the video (maybe Zenimax need prioritise other content) it all depend of what Zenimax is capable of pulling off in devellopement.I still believe there is system that requiere their attention in priority, but if they can spare a team on that one, that would be great obviously. The more, the merrier IF it's done right.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Elloa wrote: »

My son of 11, when he plays ESO, what does he do? He goes arround Davon's Watch, stealing things and escaping guards. Woudl he enjoy that if he was hunted by Sypher instead? That would just be so frustrating and humiliating! Okay, its not a true ESO player, of course not. But still...This show my point, that there is absolutely no reason to punish a LARGE part of the population.

@Elloa :

OK your son goes around Davon's Watch, steals stuff, escapes guards and has fun. Will he still be having fun after doing it 50 times ? Unless he's a complete idiot, which I assume he isn't, he'll soon find out that the guard always does the same thing, so that he in turn has to do the same thing... Within a couple of days, or weeks, he'll probably tell you "Mama, this is boring, what other games do you have on the box ?"

OR... your son goes around Davon's Watch, steals stuff and encounters Sypher !! He'll probably learn very quickly that he cannot fight Sypher. So he'll learn to escape Sypher. To hide. To use invisibility and mobility abilities and potions, to use the environment, to use killable NPCs as a shield (enforcers that commit crime, hurt innocent, would lose their enforcer's status on the spot), etc... they could have fun playing hide and seek all day, everyday, without it ever becoming boring or repetitive. Eventually Sypher would go away and chase some more substantial target, and another enforcer would chase your son and they would fight and your son could potentially win because not all PvPers are good...
And so on. Possibilities are ENDLESS.

Justice System as it is is reduced to ONE quick-drying scenario. The 2nd part of it would have opened up an ocean of possibilities. It's a shame that people don't want to even imagine it, they're all scared and paralyzed by their "I hate PvP" thing. Which doesn't even mean "I hate PvP" but "I fear PvPers".
The true danger in PvP is not to die to another player, it's the teabagging attitude, the hate whispers and the will to humiliate.

ChuckyPayne · January 2016

At the end of last year in one of the ESO Live they said duel is coming arena (4v4 or somthing like that) is coming. Then there is no problem, they just said justice system is only for pve.
I think no pvp justice system <> no dueling.

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

ThePonzzz wrote: »

The justice system, as it currently stands, it just tedium. Like @Necrelios mentioned, it's avoidable if you take steps right away by logging out. Find something worth stealing and have a bounty? No worries just log out.

And actual items worth finding are so few and far between. If I need lockpicks and food, I can go crawling around a town for 30 minutes, but there is nothing really decent to gain. Guards being invincible was also a bad move. It makes crime fall flat.

The only hope was there to be some actual repercussions when getting caught, which was the PvP. But there is just nothing to gain stealing, especially at later levels. It can be a decent way for a newbie to earn some money though.

This exactly!

I agree with both @Lefty_Lucy and you completely.

Zenimax has a "Justice System" in place that adds absolutely no depth to the game. I spent litterally 2 hours of my god-knows how long game time stealing stuff.

Implementing a Justice System with worthwhile rewards and great risk would add so much depth to the game, and I already see myself spending so much time stealing worthwhile steal-only sets (hope), and/or chasing criminals that were careless enough to get caught.

Those people that are against implementing it have absolutely no legitimate reason to hate it. As I see it, that hate is purely based on PvP hate, not the system (which they didn't even bother to understand).

Every person that voted NO in this poll should also state EXACTLY the number of hours they play daily stealing stuff.

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

How to handle battle leveling and the fact that based on the description 2 things can happen: 1 high levels can stalk low levels until they make a mistake and 2 a person or people can steal stuff on purpose to trigger PvP against everyone else and cause a massacre.

edit plus right now PvP balance is a farce that is the biggest reason

1. Only NPC can "see" a crime, much as now
2. Enforcers should get significant bonuses against an Outlaw

Problem solved.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

ChuckyPayne wrote: »

At the end of last year in one of the ESO Live they said duel is coming arena (4v4 or somthing like that) is coming. Then there is no problem, they just said justice system is only for pve.
I think no pvp justice system <> no dueling.

No sure what you mean, but if you mean that the pvp arena is a good replacement for pvp justice system, you're wrong. It ignores the entire "cat and mouse" chase and risk/reward that would have added more depth to the entire game world. PvP arena is not going to provide that.
It's sad that PvEers shoot themselves in the foot by not recognizing how the PvP justice system would have enhanced their own PvE gaming experience.

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I already made a suggestion in an earlier thread, here's the summary:

Also, to get into detail about the Enforcer:

- gets a new skill line, just like legerdemain, with an active skill "Apprehend", which would just be a single target long range low cost skill castable on Outlaws with bounties that CCs them for 15 secs, and prompts them to pay their bounty (much like guards do).
- passives provide an advantage in fighting Outlaws like more resistance against their attacks, reducing their CC immunity time and increasing your stealth detection radius.

Also, bounties would need some overhaul: (note that only NPCs can "see" and report a crime")
-Disreputable – SAFE FROM PvP the lowest level. All guards will generally ignore you unless you approach them.
(the Outlaw gets an icon above his head, much like the Alliance icons in Cyrodill, can be Apprehended)
-Notorious – SAFE FROM PvP You’ll be chased down by the guards, who enlist other guards to assist in the pursuit.
(same as above, also his stealth radius is impaired, and all nearby Enforcers are notified there was a crime in #city name)
-Fugitive – NOT SAFE from PvP The highest level. Guards will always try to kill you.
(same as above but can no longer be Apprehended and is attackable by Enforcers instead, also if detected by a guard or Enforcer his icon gets displayed on map for as long as he is out of stealth)

Then add set items that can be stolen of high quality. Remember that having 75 points in Shadow increases the quality of items found in chests - this makes it possible to steal legendary quality gear - nice way to farm sets or decon for temper mats.

Being a thief should be all high risk - high reward kind of playstyle.

Oh yeah, one more thing: after implementing the Enforcer system, the guards should become killable. Hard to kill, but not immortal.
Attacking them would, ofc give you the fugitive status and you would be marked on the map so good luck with that

Also, to point out why the Enforcer passives should give advantages over Outlaws:
If the Outlaw vs Enforces battle was not heavily in favor of the law Enforcers, it would encourage Outlaw grouping and intentional fighting with the Enforcers.
This is NOT the kind of playstyle that should be encouraged in thieves.
Instead they should be playing solo - smart and stealthy. And ofc, if they get caught, their priority should be to disappear asap, not fight prolonged fights.

Elloa · January 2016

@Dubhliam

Those people that are against implementing it have absolutely no legitimate reason to hate it. As I see it, that hate is purely based on PvP hate, not the system (which they didn't even bother to understand).

The problem as I see it in this conversation is that you have PVPer that rightfully want to see the Justice System PVP being added in a way or another, and PVPer that want to push down the troat some PVP action to players that don't want to PVP and rightfully want to play the game.

Why every discussion involving PVP element is turning into a PVP VS PVE fight.

For a LOT of player the Justice System as it is now IS FUN! For a lot of player the Justice System as it is now IS NOT ENOUGH. So why can't we get a fair compromise?

Isn't what @Lefty_Lucy is promoting all along?

ESO is not a game made for just one sort of players. So, we shoudl see further than our own interest and think about the benefice of the community as a whole.

You know what guys? Maybe Zenimax is removing the Justice System PVP, cause they don't want to bother with the drama it will create and generate among the community. Maybe they think " We will *** off 50% of our customers so why bother? Let's make something that most poeple can agree with"
And seing this thread, I'd understand their decision.

Alucardo · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Elloa wrote: »

For a LOT of player the Justice System as it is now IS FUN! For a lot of player the Justice System as it is now IS NOT ENOUGH. So why can't we get a fair compromise?

This is why many of us believe an "opt-in" system would be ideal. For those people who enjoy the justice system as it is now, they don't need to do anything. They won't get attacked by other players and can continue being bad guys however they want.
For those who want a little more out of it, like PVP, they can simply tick that option and flag themselves for the PVP justice system.
So for people like your son, nothing will actually change and he won't get attacked by any one, unless he chooses to.

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Elloa wrote: »

@Dubhliam

Those people that are against implementing it have absolutely no legitimate reason to hate it. As I see it, that hate is purely based on PvP hate, not the system (which they didn't even bother to understand).

The problem as I see it in this conversation is that you have PVPer that rightfully want to see the Justice System PVP being added in a way or another, and PVPer that want to push down the troat some PVP action to players that don't want to PVP and rightfully want to play the game.

Why every discussion involving PVP element is turning into a PVP VS PVE fight.

For a LOT of player the Justice System as it is now IS FUN! For a lot of player the Justice System as it is now IS NOT ENOUGH. So why can't we get a fair compromise?

Isn't what @Lefty_Lucy is promoting all along?

ESO is not a game made for just one sort of players. So, we shoudl see further than our own interest and think about the benefice of the community as a whole.

You know what guys? Maybe Zenimax is removing the Justice System PVP, cause they don't want to bother with the drama it will create and generate among the community. Maybe they think " We will *** off 50% of our customers so why bother? Let's make something that most poeple can agree with"
And seing this thread, I'd understand their decision.

@Elloa , I understand what you are saying, and I really want all of the players to find their rightful experience playing this game, I do.

What my post was referring to is that people complain about something that they think would be implemented, and mostly based on their preference of playing instead of the Justice System.

I agree that the current PvE only Justice System should stay intact. But that does not mean ZOS can't implement another extension of that System that includes a PvP element.

For example:

- I think it would be hard to balance battle leveling in early zones (native faction) and think those zones should be excluded from PvP Justice.
- I honestly hope that with the Dark Brotherhood DLC, the Cadwell zones (silver & gold) get rolled back to lvl 50. There you have it- 10 zones where everyone can be scaled to lvl 50- make those zones available to both factions that are not native to them, non hostile, but enable Justice PvP

Note that ganking is not a viable playstyle for an Enforcer.
Unless somebody likes to follow people around hoping that they would get noticed by NPCs and get a lvl3 bounty- Fugitive status.

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Contraptions wrote: »

I'm going to vote no on this for now. Like OP said, if implemented poorly this could bomb big time.

OP says that people who opposed the idea did so without knowing all the details. Even if that's true, OP also supported this idea without knowing all the details. This argument doesn't work either way.

The people who support this idea just seem to want more PVP. And that's fine. But I would rather they lobby for a separate "opt-in" PVP completely unrelated to Justice than try to mash these two systems together. It's gonna be a mess. There are tons of possible loopholes in this system. Here are some scenarios:

Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him. Who gets the bounty? What if A purposely carries no gold? Is it subtracted from the bank? Same for contraband items. Who gets it? an Enforcer should never get the stolen items or gold that the bounty is worth (it should still be subtracted from the Outlaw) but get that many justice points that could be a requirement for an Enforcer daily completion.

Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him with help from a guard. Who gets the bounty? Is the bounty going to be split like AP? What if it's two or more player enforcers? Who gets the contraband? see above

What about wayshrining away when attacked? Very good observation, would need to work the same way as doors work now - 5 second out of combat rule.

Is this flagging system going to be active in Cyrodiil? Or cooperative activities like trials and dungeons? This system should not be active in Cyrodill and group instanced content, and be focused in PvE world maps instead.

Will NPC guards still be invincible? No, they should become killable, but very hard to kill. If we are taking into consideration my previous suggestion that the 5 starter zones (from the native alliance) are excluded from Justice PvP, those guards should stay invincible.

How will stealth work? Will Enforcers be unable to see Thieves? Can Civilians see Thieves? What about Civilian Thieves (aka people that have bounties but don't flag themselves)? Stealth would work much like in Cyro. Again, I have to reffer to my previous suggestion - don't make the opt in/out option available, make PvP and non PvP maps instead.

How would healing work? Will spells have to check whether the target is a Civilian or a Thief or an Enforcer and not affect them accordingly? see above

How would you address people who zerg around in large groups, as either Enforcers or Thieves? A VERY valid point, this system should stay small scale PvP. That is the reason in my suggestion that I think Enforcers should get a skill line with passives that significantly enhances their performance against Outlaws. Outlaws are discouraged to fight, and must turn to hiding and running IF they ever get a lvl3 bounty. Enforcers are wasting time if they zerg around waiting for a person to get a lvl3 bounty (only obtainable with NPC spotting). REMEMBER! This should not be a way for people to intentionally 1v1 or zerg. Arenas are coming eventually, that will be the place to 1v1, and hopefully we'll get balance by then.

How would you prevent the camping of Refuge entrances or Enforcer strongholds? Yet another very valid point. Refuges should sell recall scrolls, much as those in IC.

How would you address level differences between players? Is there going to be battle leveling for all who flag themselves? Again I have to point to my suggestion that leaves starter zones PvP free. PvP Justice should be promoted in bettle leveled areas (DLCs excluding IC and hopefully Cadwell silver and gold)

If OP wants people to support his idea, he needs to start providing more details himself. Not just, "I saw this work well before so it must work here as well." Kudos on being mature about it though.

These are all very good points, thank you very much for pointing out the possible problems instead of just saying- I don't like it.

OP has a very good intention of showing ZOS that the community can help them with implementing this System without hurting the playerbase.

necroticgames_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Samadhi wrote: »

Was in the process of patching the game after roughly a half-year hiatus.

Saw the road ahead; saw that ZOS still does not care about their PvP community; canceled my download.

For a long time, PvP was the only thing that kept me active in the community. It took a pretty consistent nosedive in the wake of the lighting patch and issues with AoE caps, but ZOS never tackle things.

To this day, it is the only thing I really want back -- replaying Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim then tackling Fallout 4 provided more interesting PvE encounters than ESO ever did, but PvP is the part of the MMO world that cannot be replaced with AI.

Justice System had the opportunity to breathe new life into this game. It was going to offer a really nice juxtaposition of role-playing and PvP in my favourite gaming universe.

My well wishes go out to everyone who continues to deal with being treated as an unimportant player by ZOS.

When I read this -

"We will not be adding in the previously discussed PvP component of the Justice System. We caveated this many times - as I said at the ESO QuakeCon presentation in 2014, it was always going to be very difficult making it fun, but not exploitable. When introducing new systems to the game, our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems. Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is."

I was floored. This is unbelievable. We desperately need open world PvP in this game in all areas, not FFA but open to all areas with a flagging system like MOST MMOs for crying out loud! The Justice system is the perfect way to introduce that to this game, it was a unique idea and it would have brought in a lot more players.... This is such a gutless cop out excuse to not add it. So disappointing....

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Dubhliam wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

I'm going to vote no on this for now. Like OP said, if implemented poorly this could bomb big time.

OP says that people who opposed the idea did so without knowing all the details. Even if that's true, OP also supported this idea without knowing all the details. This argument doesn't work either way.

The people who support this idea just seem to want more PVP. And that's fine. But I would rather they lobby for a separate "opt-in" PVP completely unrelated to Justice than try to mash these two systems together. It's gonna be a mess. There are tons of possible loopholes in this system. Here are some scenarios:

Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him. Who gets the bounty? What if A purposely carries no gold? Is it subtracted from the bank? Same for contraband items. Who gets it? an Enforcer should never get the stolen items or gold that the bounty is worth (it should still be subtracted from the Outlaw) but get that many justice points that could be a requirement for an Enforcer daily completion.

Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him with help from a guard. Who gets the bounty? Is the bounty going to be split like AP? What if it's two or more player enforcers? Who gets the contraband? see above

What about wayshrining away when attacked? Very good observation, would need to work the same way as doors work now - 5 second out of combat rule.

Is this flagging system going to be active in Cyrodiil? Or cooperative activities like trials and dungeons? This system should not be active in Cyrodill and group instanced content, and be focused in PvE world maps instead.

Will NPC guards still be invincible? No, they should become killable, but very hard to kill. If we are taking into consideration my previous suggestion that the 5 starter zones (from the native alliance) are excluded from Justice PvP, those guards should stay invincible.

How will stealth work? Will Enforcers be unable to see Thieves? Can Civilians see Thieves? What about Civilian Thieves (aka people that have bounties but don't flag themselves)? Stealth would work much like in Cyro. Again, I have to reffer to my previous suggestion - don't make the opt in/out option available, make PvP and non PvP maps instead.

How would healing work? Will spells have to check whether the target is a Civilian or a Thief or an Enforcer and not affect them accordingly? see above

How would you address people who zerg around in large groups, as either Enforcers or Thieves? A VERY valid point, this system should stay small scale PvP. That is the reason in my suggestion that I think Enforcers should get a skill line with passives that significantly enhances their performance against Outlaws. Outlaws are discouraged to fight, and must turn to hiding and running IF they ever get a lvl3 bounty. Enforcers are wasting time if they zerg around waiting for a person to get a lvl3 bounty (only obtainable with NPC spotting). REMEMBER! This should not be a way for people to intentionally 1v1 or zerg. Arenas are coming eventually, that will be the place to 1v1, and hopefully we'll get balance by then.

How would you prevent the camping of Refuge entrances or Enforcer strongholds? Yet another very valid point. Refuges should sell recall scrolls, much as those in IC.

How would you address level differences between players? Is there going to be battle leveling for all who flag themselves? Again I have to point to my suggestion that leaves starter zones PvP free. PvP Justice should be promoted in bettle leveled areas (DLCs excluding IC and hopefully Cadwell silver and gold)

If OP wants people to support his idea, he needs to start providing more details himself. Not just, "I saw this work well before so it must work here as well." Kudos on being mature about it though.

These are all very good points, thank you very much for pointing out the possible problems instead of just saying- I don't like it.

OP has a very good intention of showing ZOS that the community can help them with implementing this System without hurting the playerbase.

Other ways to prevent rampant fights would be to prevent Enforcers of trespassing themselves (maybe they'd need a 'warrant') and have it so that when Enforcers commit crimes, they're demoted and prevented from flagging back up (on a timer): that way they'd have to be wary of collateral damage (e.g. fighting in towns with AOE skills would be a risk).

Preventing camping could further be reduced by smart zone design (more feasible in a new zone than in old zones), e.g. adding more small safe zones throughout a zone, as well as more navigation options and passageways (the rooftop passageways we've seen in trailers featuring Abah's Landing would be perfect for this).

If the entire system is also limited to 'kill on sight' targets versus Enforcers, effectively excluding minor criminals and bystanders from PvP entirely, and making it relatively unprofitable (no one claims a bounty to prevent bounty farming, rather Enforcers could get a few hundred gold for every 'arrest' through some quest system), I think the scope of it all will be relatively small. But it would be there, cops and robbers for those who want to.

Sausage · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I think Zen should imrprove Cyrodil Dailies if thats what people want, what they obviously do, already 9 page. You can go to Cyrodil PVP daily spot and "patrol" it as some Enforcer, and you can go there ganking as "criminal".

Why not to make Justice System something interesting, like add tracking mechanics, and non-violence way, just tackling.

Sevalaricgirl · January 2016

DorianDragonRaze wrote: »

Explained there:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2592990/#Comment_2592990

I absolutely agree with everything you've said. PvP does not belong in the PvE areas of this game.

Sevalaricgirl · January 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?

Usually for me it's the part where there is no clarification whether any opt-out is going to be total, irrespective of bounty level, or only limited so long as you don't kill NPCs and get a high bounty (in which case there's an enforced choice between having PvP penalties imposed for PvE crimes in PvE areas or being excluded from some of the PvE content).

What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.

That does impact me if I'm doing a quest and I see people PvPing around me. Most quests are not solo phased and PvP would completely break immersion. ESO may not have started out as being a PvE game with PvP in Cyrodiil, but it ended up that way and the reason it is so popular is because of the PvE, not the PvP.

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?

Usually for me it's the part where there is no clarification whether any opt-out is going to be total, irrespective of bounty level, or only limited so long as you don't kill NPCs and get a high bounty (in which case there's an enforced choice between having PvP penalties imposed for PvE crimes in PvE areas or being excluded from some of the PvE content).

What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.

That does impact me if I'm doing a quest and I see people PvPing around me. Most quests are not solo phased and PvP would completely break immersion. ESO may not have started out as being a PvE game with PvP in Cyrodiil, but it ended up that way and the reason it is so popular is because of the PvE, not the PvP.

There's no reason to assume normal PvE zones would become a warzone. Mind you, I'm all for a separate zone for Justice PvP, but even in a global implementation, there's a hundred limitations that could be implemented to make sure Justice PvP is a relatively rare phenomenon. As rare as when you currently see a thief get caught by a guard. I think the immersion argument is to be respected, but I don't share it: there are many things in an open world that could break immersion. Heck, seeing 10 people doing the exact same quest as me, killing a boss spawn is immersion breaking. I don't think the occasional fight in which a criminal is caught would have that much impact, if the right limitations would be in place.

TheBull · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@ZOS_MattFiror

I think it's far to say a lot of players wanted/want the pvp portion.

ralonasan · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

TheBull wrote: »

@ZOS_MattFiror

I think it's far to say a lot of players wanted/want the pvp portion.

Doesn't matter, sold DLC. Lol. We all got rekt. By RNG, by lag, by lies, by carebears. Unless they announce some useful information during ESO live, they are going to lose a major portion of their player base. They can claim they have a lot of new players etc etc. But when those new players move up in VR and realize that this game has nothing to offer, they'll be just as pissed as we are and leave just the same.

Magdalina · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?

Usually for me it's the part where there is no clarification whether any opt-out is going to be total, irrespective of bounty level, or only limited so long as you don't kill NPCs and get a high bounty (in which case there's an enforced choice between having PvP penalties imposed for PvE crimes in PvE areas or being excluded from some of the PvE content).

What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.

That does impact me if I'm doing a quest and I see people PvPing around me. Most quests are not solo phased and PvP would completely break immersion. ESO may not have started out as being a PvE game with PvP in Cyrodiil, but it ended up that way and the reason it is so popular is because of the PvE, not the PvP.

It's not even that I'm a PvPer but I don't think I understand this argument. With all due respect...Seeing people killing same bad npc guy you killed 2 minutes ago, seeing "good" npcs walking on their own dead bodies(see the PvE justice system part), chasing guar in Stonefalls after saving the world from Molag Bal(see Cadwell's Silver and Gold), seeing your pet bear trying to catch a butterfly as you're fighting and dying to, say, and OP daedric titan(see Crown Store), players dressed in stripper dancing outfits tanking daedric lords(see Crown Store again) - all those things don't break your immersion, but PvPing people would? Why? With the justice system they'd have a perfectly legit reason to do so(much more legit than the reasons for most of the stuff I listed above) - a "law enforcer" trying to take down a "horrible criminal". I'm not trying to attack, but could you maybe help me understand why that "breaks immersion" while other things don't?