AoE Caps Discussion

bowmanz607 · December 2015

Anzriel wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

I don't think 80% is accurate, but I think the vast majority didn't want AoE caps in the first place and want them gone now. To post this thread, not post anything for weeks and then post "this is in our long term plans which, for ZOS, could mean 6-12 months before things change just give a terrible impression. There are a lot of people who are already borderline considering quitting. Some already have. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but it honestly gives a terrible impression. Not only that they don't listen, but they don't run things well. I'm looking for positive and the only positive I've seen is "we'll EVENTUALLY get around to it".

AoE caps aren't the #1 issue to me, I'd put both the lag and class balance ahead of it, but honestly AoE caps should be more of a short-term priority as well IMO. Things don't happen in a vacuum, and while I don't personally plan on quitting in the near future I know many who are getting fed up. This issue isn't happening in a vacuum.

I think it is worth waiting for the rebalance before making a decision. I do agree that if this upcoming balance falters, then many players will leave at least till a real pcp update comes.

Darnathian · December 2015

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

believe what you want. if you doubt that you havent been here since release. not 80% of the game population. the pvp population.

bowmanz607 · December 2015

Darnathian wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

believe what you want. if you doubt that you havent been here since release. not 80% of the game population. the pvp population.

You should never drop a percentage or numbers when talking about the population. Whether it is how many people left or how many people do this etc. We have no numbers on the population and never have. There is no basis for giving random numbers. That said, the game has died down significantly since launch.

Lava_Croft · December 2015

I like that there are people who were under the impression that player skill has ever played a meaningful role in this game.

bowmanz607 · December 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I like that there are people who were under the impression that player skill has ever played a meaningful role in this game.

It does matter to some extent. It does not matter in large groups. It does matter when dueling and small group play or 1vx. But 8t is not as meaningful as it once was. And really having more champ points than a player who is more skilled then you will likely result in their demise if the player with high champ points is even partially competant. And that is the issue. A player with a ton more skill but 100 points will lose out to a player with significantly less skill and maxed cp.

That is what I liked about soft caps and no champ points. Once you got max level and gear it came down purely to skill.

VincentBlanquin · December 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

I don't think 80% is accurate, but I think the vast majority didn't want AoE caps in the first place and want them gone now. To post this thread, not post anything for weeks and then post "this is in our long term plans which, for ZOS, could mean 6-12 months before things change just give a terrible impression. There are a lot of people who are already borderline considering quitting. Some already have. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but it honestly gives a terrible impression. Not only that they don't listen, but they don't run things well. I'm looking for positive and the only positive I've seen is "we'll EVENTUALLY get around to it".

AoE caps aren't the #1 issue to me, I'd put both the lag and class balance ahead of it, but honestly AoE caps should be more of a short-term priority as well IMO. Things don't happen in a vacuum, and while I don't personally plan on quitting in the near future I know many who are getting fed up. This issue isn't happening in a vacuum.

I think it is worth waiting for the rebalance before making a decision. I do agree that if this upcoming balance falters, then many players will leave at least till a real pcp update comes.

i am actually starting to fear this "rebalance" will not be ready for thieves guild.....

Swampfox · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Last week, we had a really successful discussion on player abilities. It was super constructive and we got a ton of really great feedback. This week, we’d like to have that same constructive discussion with AoE caps and falloff. AoE caps are something that have been talked about on the forums for a while now and discussion has picked up recently, especially with regards to PvP. We’d like to discuss them in a bit more detail and provide some design goals for the system, as well as the overall vision for larger scale PvP in ESO.

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

With that being said, there are a few situations where healing is able to out scale damage. The first step we are taking is to look at some of the abilities that heal far more than we would like in large group fights. We’re specifically looking at Purge and Barrier initially, and will be reducing the max targets these abilities can hit. While we are looking at specific abilities, we are also looking into Magicka Detonation. This ability was always intended to be more effective versus groups and less effective against individual targets, and it is not meeting those design goals currently.

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

For feedback this week, we’d love to hear about situations in which you feel like you are having problems against large groups of players. Include the number of players you’re fighting against, abilities you believe they are using, and abilities you feel need tweaks to make them more effective against larger numbers.

Eric You do realise there is only 7 days in a week

Not really sure you also concur that the majority of the posts are contributing to make the game play better

With respect having you contribute some sort of reply post after 29 pages would at least help us players understand your point of view , thoughts and things players without the technical savvy have overlooked in your final assessment

We are all fans of the game and being more transparent would satisfy our concerns even if we don't all totally agree with it

Eric you need to communicate with your customers

VincentBlanquin · December 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I like that there are people who were under the impression that player skill has ever played a meaningful role in this game.

It does matter to some extent. It does not matter in large groups. It does matter when dueling and small group play or 1vx. But 8t is not as meaningful as it once was. And really having more champ points than a player who is more skilled then you will likely result in their demise if the player with high champ points is even partially competant. And that is the issue. A player with a ton more skill but 100 points will lose out to a player with significantly less skill and maxed cp.

That is what I liked about soft caps and no champ points. Once you got max level and gear it came down purely to skill.

but that skill is still less meaningfull than class choice, weapon choice, dps or not dps choice, lag involved .... and more and more things. if you are not minmaxer than..... all fun is quickly gone

xAPxZeez · December 2015

Since opinions are asked asked for here is mine:

The idea of AoE caps is good I just think it was a bit too much of a penalty and promotes zergs.

On page 1 Enodoc I think was onto something but I don't like reducing damage because AoE trash clearing in pve will also be affected making speed runs much harder since most trash pulls are near 6. Instead I propose 0-6 100%, 6-24 110%, 25+ 125%

If you insist with caps then maybe: 0-6 100%, 6-24 90% 25+ 80%.

I agree with the sentiments of most constructive posts here. 20 people are going to kill 5 people 99% of the time and they should no matter what changes are made.

bowmanz607 · December 2015

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

I don't think 80% is accurate, but I think the vast majority didn't want AoE caps in the first place and want them gone now. To post this thread, not post anything for weeks and then post "this is in our long term plans which, for ZOS, could mean 6-12 months before things change just give a terrible impression. There are a lot of people who are already borderline considering quitting. Some already have. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but it honestly gives a terrible impression. Not only that they don't listen, but they don't run things well. I'm looking for positive and the only positive I've seen is "we'll EVENTUALLY get around to it".

AoE caps aren't the #1 issue to me, I'd put both the lag and class balance ahead of it, but honestly AoE caps should be more of a short-term priority as well IMO. Things don't happen in a vacuum, and while I don't personally plan on quitting in the near future I know many who are getting fed up. This issue isn't happening in a vacuum.

I think it is worth waiting for the rebalance before making a decision. I do agree that if this upcoming balance falters, then many players will leave at least till a real pcp update comes.

i am actually starting to fear this "rebalance" will not be ready for thieves guild.....

They have actually stated that it is coming for this update on eso live.

VincentBlanquin · December 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

I don't think 80% is accurate, but I think the vast majority didn't want AoE caps in the first place and want them gone now. To post this thread, not post anything for weeks and then post "this is in our long term plans which, for ZOS, could mean 6-12 months before things change just give a terrible impression. There are a lot of people who are already borderline considering quitting. Some already have. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but it honestly gives a terrible impression. Not only that they don't listen, but they don't run things well. I'm looking for positive and the only positive I've seen is "we'll EVENTUALLY get around to it".

AoE caps aren't the #1 issue to me, I'd put both the lag and class balance ahead of it, but honestly AoE caps should be more of a short-term priority as well IMO. Things don't happen in a vacuum, and while I don't personally plan on quitting in the near future I know many who are getting fed up. This issue isn't happening in a vacuum.

I think it is worth waiting for the rebalance before making a decision. I do agree that if this upcoming balance falters, then many players will leave at least till a real pcp update comes.

i am actually starting to fear this "rebalance" will not be ready for thieves guild.....

They have actually stated that it is coming for this update on eso live.

i know it. but if it should be ready even for preview server, there is no time to wait for discussion. that timeline is somehow broken ....

bowmanz607 · December 2015

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

I don't think 80% is accurate, but I think the vast majority didn't want AoE caps in the first place and want them gone now. To post this thread, not post anything for weeks and then post "this is in our long term plans which, for ZOS, could mean 6-12 months before things change just give a terrible impression. There are a lot of people who are already borderline considering quitting. Some already have. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but it honestly gives a terrible impression. Not only that they don't listen, but they don't run things well. I'm looking for positive and the only positive I've seen is "we'll EVENTUALLY get around to it".

AoE caps aren't the #1 issue to me, I'd put both the lag and class balance ahead of it, but honestly AoE caps should be more of a short-term priority as well IMO. Things don't happen in a vacuum, and while I don't personally plan on quitting in the near future I know many who are getting fed up. This issue isn't happening in a vacuum.

I think it is worth waiting for the rebalance before making a decision. I do agree that if this upcoming balance falters, then many players will leave at least till a real pcp update comes.

i am actually starting to fear this "rebalance" will not be ready for thieves guild.....

They have actually stated that it is coming for this update on eso live.

i know it. but if it should be ready even for preview server, there is no time to wait for discussion. that timeline is somehow broken ....

Well it is suppose to come q1 right? So that is jan, feb, march. So they can easily release on pts late Jan and then put live in march and the timeline is right on track. IMO we will see it on pts the week of or after their next eso live. They typically keep on for one month and then release which would give us an end of Feb release.

The issue I think we will see is proper testing of whatever they change with siege and caps coupled with purge and barrier changes etc. These are items that can not be properly tested in pts cause you don't have the large group numbers to do so. Those will be issues that will have to be dealt with when it goes live because only in live will it get proper testing. Personally I think they should take a few schedules nights where a dev group comes on so that people are pulled to the pts for testing.uch like they did when they released the champion system on pts.

VincentBlanquin · December 2015

bowmanz607 wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Anzriel wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

thats fine. its your decision. but reap what you sow. you alienated 80% of the pvp population who up and left for other old or horrible titles.

Not even remotely accurate or even in the ballpark.

I don't think 80% is accurate, but I think the vast majority didn't want AoE caps in the first place and want them gone now. To post this thread, not post anything for weeks and then post "this is in our long term plans which, for ZOS, could mean 6-12 months before things change just give a terrible impression. There are a lot of people who are already borderline considering quitting. Some already have. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but it honestly gives a terrible impression. Not only that they don't listen, but they don't run things well. I'm looking for positive and the only positive I've seen is "we'll EVENTUALLY get around to it".

AoE caps aren't the #1 issue to me, I'd put both the lag and class balance ahead of it, but honestly AoE caps should be more of a short-term priority as well IMO. Things don't happen in a vacuum, and while I don't personally plan on quitting in the near future I know many who are getting fed up. This issue isn't happening in a vacuum.

I think it is worth waiting for the rebalance before making a decision. I do agree that if this upcoming balance falters, then many players will leave at least till a real pcp update comes.

i am actually starting to fear this "rebalance" will not be ready for thieves guild.....

They have actually stated that it is coming for this update on eso live.

i know it. but if it should be ready even for preview server, there is no time to wait for discussion. that timeline is somehow broken ....

Well it is suppose to come q1 right? So that is jan, feb, march. So they can easily release on pts late Jan and then put live in march and the timeline is right on track. IMO we will see it on pts the week of or after their next eso live. They typically keep on for one month and then release which would give us an end of Feb release.

The issue I think we will see is proper testing of whatever they change with siege and caps coupled with purge and barrier changes etc. These are items that can not be properly tested in pts cause you don't have the large group numbers to do so. Those will be issues that will have to be dealt with when it goes live because only in live will it get proper testing. Personally I think they should take a few schedules nights where a dev group comes on so that people are pulled to the pts for testing.uch like they did when they released the champion system on pts.

i am too old to believe on christmas miracles )))

StihlReign · December 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful. The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it. Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.

Sounds like a great idea.

MADshadowmans_Ghost · December 2015

@Wrobel i expect you to remove AOE caps in the next patch. Ok? OK? OK!

Tankqull · December 2015

@Wrobel
if you are fearsome in regard of pve balance because of uncapped AOEs atleast use the solution used by DAoC nearly 16 years ago... => dmg dimnition by distance of the AOE centre aka dmg-dropoff.

* increase all AOE´s to steal tornados 12m range.
* have within the first 4m 100% dmg on every target from there reduce the dmg lineary to a 25%dmg at maximum range to everyone else within the range.

that way the games nemesis "balled groupes" are the ones affected the most while losely spread groups remain unefected due to the dmg dropoff to the outer areas of the aoes. in pve mob behaviour could be easily adopted by adding a few more range mobs into bigger mob groups who spread away reducing aoe effectivity in those areas aswell without crippling pvp with restriced AOEs.

* and beside that all pbaes should be 1sec CT attacks wich are ruptable - you know risk vs reward...

for some educative inforamation what balling up should end in...

https://youtu.be/-BxyNKATs2s

ps: for those that do not know all my suggestions above are applied in DAoC for the last 15years(and the video above) creating the most entertaining openworld pvp ever existed and still existing

PainfulFAFA · December 2015

so sad
i found this on the 2nd page

FENGRUSH · December 2015

Heres to you AOE caps - happy new year.

Darkius · January 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.

THIS IS A CONSTRUCTIVE POST, PLEASE READ ZOS.

The above quote makes total sense since that's the way proxy det is working right now!
I think one of @Wrobel 's priorities is to keep single target abilities useful. So what can we do to make this even better?

There should be a slight nerf in base damage for some AOE abilities so that single target abilities keep their relevance vs small groups. Why? Nobody wants AOE abilities to be the new go-to skills for all situations, but groups simply need to die when you drop tons of AOEs on them! It doesn't happen currently and that's what positive scaling would accomplish.

That way, we don't have a 1 button win with AOEs and we'll still have to use single target versus small groups and solo players.

Win-win.

@Wrobel if this is not effective or possible, could you please tell us why?

Manoekin · January 2016

Darkius wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Someone who PvPs a lot will have to say whether this would make sense or not, but how about considering this the other way around? Currently, the more enemies there, the less damage is effectively done. Why not increase the damage done based on the number of players hit? So 25% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 100% to the last 30. That way, the AoE abilities are good against large groups, but single-target spells remain useful in 1-on-1 situations. Zergs spamming the AoEs wouldn't be very effective, as they will be up against a smaller number, and healers wouldn't be able to heal the zerg as effectively because more people will have taken more damage.

THIS IS A CONSTRUCTIVE POST, PLEASE READ ZOS.

The above quote makes total sense since that's the way proxy det is working right now!
I think one of @Wrobel 's priorities is to keep single target abilities useful. So what can we do to make this even better?

There should be a slight nerf in base damage for some AOE abilities so that single target abilities keep their relevance vs small groups. Why? Nobody wants AOE abilities to be the new go-to skills for all situations, but groups simply need to die when you drop tons of AOEs on them! It doesn't happen currently and that's what positive scaling would accomplish.

That way, we don't have a 1 button win with AOEs and we'll still have to use single target versus small groups and solo players.

Win-win.

@Wrobel if this is not effective or possible, could you please tell us why?

Correct over-performing AOE's rather than just a base nerf in damage. More than a few do not do good damage at all. In the siege thread on the alliance war forums it was said that making siege work like proxy would add much more things the server has to check, and the goal is to reduce lag. Uncapping AOE would just be the best move for now imo. Making it work like prox det would be weird.

Darkius · January 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

Correct over-performing AOE's rather than just a base nerf in damage. More than a few do not do good damage at all. In the siege thread on the alliance war forums it was said that making siege work like proxy would add much more things the server has to check, and the goal is to reduce lag. Uncapping AOE would just be the best move for now imo. Making it work like prox det would be weird.

EDIT: Read your post too fast.

Yeah I was afraid this could worsen performance... Then I really don't see why AoE caps would be still present in the next PTS.

I guess this shows even more that removing AoE cap seems to be only viable short-term solution. Only after then we can look at adjusting damage figures.

EDIT 2: I just read Sublime's post (#60, read it!) suggesting long-term changes in addition to removing caps, such as changing Purge, Retreating Maneuver and Barrier to be more penalising to use and have reduced efficacy. I think this would work particularly well in Cyrodiil. However this needs to be tested, especially against Imperial City ball groups (the worst of them all).

All the solutions are listed out, now all we need is a PTS where all these suggestions can be tested and adjusted on-the-go. This may take longer than other PTS testing we've had before, but I think it's safe to say the player base is ready to take the time for such crucial changes for the future of ESO.

Derra · January 2016

I feel like it would already help if they altered the caps to:

12 people full dmg.
next 12 50% dmg.
next 12 25% dmg.

They´d reduce the effective cap resulting in less calculations for high density situations but increase the full dmg part a bit so it does not get directly countered by smarthealing abilities hitting 6 targets.

Erondil · January 2016

Derra wrote: »

I feel like it would already help if they altered the caps to:

12 people full dmg.
next 12 50% dmg.
next 12 25% dmg.

They´d reduce the effective cap resulting in less calculations for high density situations but increase the full dmg part a bit so it does not get directly countered by smarthealing abilities hitting 6 targets.

I think that would be terrible. People would just try to stack even more people, and group of 8-12 can even less compete with bigger groups than now.

Xsorus · January 2016

Just remove the caps

Quit trying to half ass it.

VincentBlanquin · January 2016

wrobel should -

1. allow himself be educated about pvp gameplay (i am sure there is someone at ZOS who can do it. maybe some tester)
2. play pvp daily (even instead of reading forum)

Joy_Division · January 2016

No extra calculations or fancy scaling.

Just do away with the caps and see what happens.

If ZoS is really afraid of AoE damage and people die too fast, raise health (should have never been nerfed), force everyone to do a "here is how you don't die to AOEs: spread out" tutorial, and buff some of the crap heals to compensate for the new capped barrier/purge.

hrothbern · January 2016

MADshadowmans_Ghost wrote: »

@Wrobel i expect you to remove AOE caps in the next patch. Ok? OK? OK!

Do you mean AOE caps for damage ?
or all AOE caps, including AOE heals?

Except for killing in 1-3 seconds, a real burst, killing is about doing more damage than healing.

Looking at many posts, like the one you posted, many posts are just hammering on "no AOE" ... and talk about a "no AOE" cap for damage....

The approach I sense from ZOS, among other tweaks, is to tweak foremost AOE healing.
What is wrong with that ???

It would even make healing more needed, and because of that make (Templar) Healers more important....

also not bad, to get that role made more important (IMO)

Bashev · January 2016

If they do not remove AoE caps which we desperately need they should add smart DPS similar to smart heals (always attack the target with low health) and they should add a penalty for the resurrections.

Right now even if you manage to kill 1-2 ppl with your small group the big group resurrect them immediately.

P.S But I guess that smart DPS will bring a lot of server calculations. So remove the AoE and save the server from the lag and do not give the big groups bigger advantage than they already have by their size.

MADshadowmans_Ghost · January 2016

@Wrobel i know you wanna come up with your own solutions for this issue, but the thing is... no one cares about what you want. cause you're not paying money to play this game and you don't have to put up with all the crap that happens in cyrodiil everyday. Remove the AOE caps, just do it. How many times do you wanna prove that you have no idea what you are doing?
Look at all the abilities you ruined, dammit, you ruined a whole class. Stop doing what you think is right and start listening to what your paying customers want.

What do you say @Wrobel? do you have what it takes to make the right decisions at the right time, or do you want to keep hiding behind your community managers?

Get back to me.

Jhunn · January 2016

MADshadowmans_Ghost wrote: »

@Wrobel i know you wanna come up with your own solutions for this issue, but the thing is... no one cares about what you want. cause you're not playing this game and you don't have to put up with all the crap that happens in cyrodiil everyday. Remove the AOE caps, just do it. How many times do you wanna prove that you have no idea what you are doing?
Look at all the abilities you ruined, dammit, you ruined a whole class. Stop doing what you think is right and start listening to what your paying customers want.

What do you say @Wrobel? do you have what it takes to make the right decisions at the right time, or do you want to keep hiding behind your community managers?

Get back to me.

Fixed