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AoE Caps Discussion
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Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I don't understand why people still posting here. ZOS made clear they won't post anything here anymore. Only info we will get about caps will be either from Wrobel personally on ESO Live or in DLC patch notes.0 -
I don't understand why people still posting here. ZOS made clear they won't post anything here anymore. Only info we will get about caps will be either from Wrobel personally on ESO Live or in DLC patch notes.
We're doing it more so to get his attention to actually have a discussion with us or give us an explanation on why they're there or why they are staying0 -
His urgency in communicating with us about pressing matters such as balancing and aoe caps is what has made me decide to cancel my subscription5
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bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭What if proxy did just raw damageJoy_Division wrote: »If u remove AOE caps, people will turtle during defense. If u have AOE caps, people will zerg during offense. What are you gonna do?
Why exactly would groups turtle themselves in order to defend without AoE caps? As an attacker, that's precisely what I would want them to do because it makes wiping them that much easier.
1) defense gives a lot of AP
2) defenders can stand in a lot of safe zones and still nuke the same spot.
3) Attackers generally make a hole in the wall and *** at the entry point, thus bombarding a huge amount of instakill aoe dot at the entry point repetitively (looking at siege spammers) which means nobody can successfully enter the keep until it gets repaired whilst the defenders constantly get AP for people trying to enter the same hole.
4) People are not smart enough to make multiple holes, plus it will make repairing painful.
Please solve the problem. AOE caps are needed. Buff caps should also be implemented. Heck, if i were zos, i make aoe heals and defensive skills affect only a limited number of people and target party members first. That will make more 2-6 party member groups in cyro then 30 -40 people zerg.
People need to be rewarded for running in smaller groups! Reward them!
See that is the issue. If a keep is well defended, then it should require multiple holes to take. That is strategy and counter strategy at play. Being to lazy to repair the holes afterwards or "not being smart enough" are not excuses.Learn having to apply strategy to a battle such as opening multiple holes when needed are what separate the good from the bad. This is a skill difference and not a mechanic difference such as champ points. This is how players should be separated in pvp. Yes, this requires cleaning up your mess afterwards, but that is part of the game play. Game mechanics should not be balanced on laziness and lack of strategy.1 -
xellink✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »What if proxy did just raw damageJoy_Division wrote: »If u remove AOE caps, people will turtle during defense. If u have AOE caps, people will zerg during offense. What are you gonna do?
Why exactly would groups turtle themselves in order to defend without AoE caps? As an attacker, that's precisely what I would want them to do because it makes wiping them that much easier.
1) defense gives a lot of AP
2) defenders can stand in a lot of safe zones and still nuke the same spot.
3) Attackers generally make a hole in the wall and *** at the entry point, thus bombarding a huge amount of instakill aoe dot at the entry point repetitively (looking at siege spammers) which means nobody can successfully enter the keep until it gets repaired whilst the defenders constantly get AP for people trying to enter the same hole.
4) People are not smart enough to make multiple holes, plus it will make repairing painful.
Please solve the problem. AOE caps are needed. Buff caps should also be implemented. Heck, if i were zos, i make aoe heals and defensive skills affect only a limited number of people and target party members first. That will make more 2-6 party member groups in cyro then 30 -40 people zerg.
People need to be rewarded for running in smaller groups! Reward them!
See that is the issue. If a keep is well defended, then it should require multiple holes to take. That is strategy and counter strategy at play. Being to lazy to repair the holes afterwards or "not being smart enough" are not excuses.Learn having to apply strategy to a battle such as opening multiple holes when needed are what separate the good from the bad. This is a skill difference and not a mechanic difference such as champ points. This is how players should be separated in pvp. Yes, this requires cleaning up your mess afterwards, but that is part of the game play. Game mechanics should not be balanced on laziness and lack of strategy.
it doesnt solve the turtling problem.
people are going to attack less and turtle more. this would heavily favour high pop factions like ep because u get ap for defending and none for a failed attack. turtling players have a lot of places to stand.
then u have to make the walls break down twice as fast so people can poke holes in the keep like swiss cheese. Do you know how long a siege takes?
from spending 2 hours to achieve effective results in cyro. players have to spend 4 hrs now.
the only way to solve this is to have paper keeps. how about rewarding small groups? isnt my suggestion a lot better than yours?0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »What if proxy did just raw damageJoy_Division wrote: »If u remove AOE caps, people will turtle during defense. If u have AOE caps, people will zerg during offense. What are you gonna do?
Why exactly would groups turtle themselves in order to defend without AoE caps? As an attacker, that's precisely what I would want them to do because it makes wiping them that much easier.
1) defense gives a lot of AP
2) defenders can stand in a lot of safe zones and still nuke the same spot.
3) Attackers generally make a hole in the wall and *** at the entry point, thus bombarding a huge amount of instakill aoe dot at the entry point repetitively (looking at siege spammers) which means nobody can successfully enter the keep until it gets repaired whilst the defenders constantly get AP for people trying to enter the same hole.
4) People are not smart enough to make multiple holes, plus it will make repairing painful.
Please solve the problem. AOE caps are needed. Buff caps should also be implemented. Heck, if i were zos, i make aoe heals and defensive skills affect only a limited number of people and target party members first. That will make more 2-6 party member groups in cyro then 30 -40 people zerg.
People need to be rewarded for running in smaller groups! Reward them!
See that is the issue. If a keep is well defended, then it should require multiple holes to take. That is strategy and counter strategy at play. Being to lazy to repair the holes afterwards or "not being smart enough" are not excuses.Learn having to apply strategy to a battle such as opening multiple holes when needed are what separate the good from the bad. This is a skill difference and not a mechanic difference such as champ points. This is how players should be separated in pvp. Yes, this requires cleaning up your mess afterwards, but that is part of the game play. Game mechanics should not be balanced on laziness and lack of strategy.
it doesnt solve the turtling problem.
people are going to attack less and turtle more. this would heavily favour high pop factions like ep because u get ap for defending and none for a failed attack. turtling players have a lot of places to stand.
then u have to make the walls break down twice as fast so people can poke holes in the keep like swiss cheese. Do you know how long a siege takes?
from spending 2 hours to achieve effective results in cyro. players have to spend 4 hrs now.
the only way to solve this is to have paper keeps. how about rewarding small groups? isnt my suggestion a lot better than yours?
done correctly siege should take less than a min per wall.
Siege used to be dangerous. You used to not be able to stand in it cause it actually hurt. It used to be extremely difficult to take a well defended keep with one hole because of everyone pounding siege and oil in that one spot. It forced players to open more holes to take it. Not only were those fights a ton of fun and there was a sense of accomplishment after taking or holding a keep in those situations, but it enhanced the pvp experience for many. We have seen this story before and it did not result in no one attacking and increased turtiling. It resulted in more strategy, tactics, organization, and skill to pull off. This is what made it so interesting.
Currently you punch a hole and run through it no problem. No strategy. no tactics. little orginization. boring experience for all. Hell even ball groups hate being a ball group. It is boring as hell. When the answer to your problem is one based on strategy and tactics, then that is fine, Complaining about not wanting to siege multiple holes or too lazy to repair etc is not a reason to not implement it. Additionally, this will only be the case for the well defended keeps which are usually next in line. for example, when alessia is taken yellow goes to sej then BRK etc. The difficulty in taking a well defended keep will change the strategy of groups and push them to fight more in oppents backfield and taking less defended keeps quickly (a 50/50) which will pull players off of another front line keep making it easier for other players to take that keep.
This change brings with it more startegy, tactics, organization, timing, skill, team work, and serves to spread people out on the overall map and in keep battles. If you dont like having to siege walls etc, then you are playing the wrong game. This game is meant to be large scale warfare premised around keep taking and seiging. This is what brought many players to the game. This is how the game was advertised from the beginning.
1 -
xellink✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »What if proxy did just raw damageJoy_Division wrote: »If u remove AOE caps, people will turtle during defense. If u have AOE caps, people will zerg during offense. What are you gonna do?
Why exactly would groups turtle themselves in order to defend without AoE caps? As an attacker, that's precisely what I would want them to do because it makes wiping them that much easier.
1) defense gives a lot of AP
2) defenders can stand in a lot of safe zones and still nuke the same spot.
3) Attackers generally make a hole in the wall and *** at the entry point, thus bombarding a huge amount of instakill aoe dot at the entry point repetitively (looking at siege spammers) which means nobody can successfully enter the keep until it gets repaired whilst the defenders constantly get AP for people trying to enter the same hole.
4) People are not smart enough to make multiple holes, plus it will make repairing painful.
Please solve the problem. AOE caps are needed. Buff caps should also be implemented. Heck, if i were zos, i make aoe heals and defensive skills affect only a limited number of people and target party members first. That will make more 2-6 party member groups in cyro then 30 -40 people zerg.
People need to be rewarded for running in smaller groups! Reward them!
See that is the issue. If a keep is well defended, then it should require multiple holes to take. That is strategy and counter strategy at play. Being to lazy to repair the holes afterwards or "not being smart enough" are not excuses.Learn having to apply strategy to a battle such as opening multiple holes when needed are what separate the good from the bad. This is a skill difference and not a mechanic difference such as champ points. This is how players should be separated in pvp. Yes, this requires cleaning up your mess afterwards, but that is part of the game play. Game mechanics should not be balanced on laziness and lack of strategy.
it doesnt solve the turtling problem.
people are going to attack less and turtle more. this would heavily favour high pop factions like ep because u get ap for defending and none for a failed attack. turtling players have a lot of places to stand.
then u have to make the walls break down twice as fast so people can poke holes in the keep like swiss cheese. Do you know how long a siege takes?
from spending 2 hours to achieve effective results in cyro. players have to spend 4 hrs now.
the only way to solve this is to have paper keeps. how about rewarding small groups? isnt my suggestion a lot better than yours?
done correctly siege should take less than a min per wall.
I have never seen siege done correctly then with a group of 6. How big is your zerg? From 100% hp it is downright impossible.Siege used to be dangerous. You used to not be able to stand in it cause it actually hurt. It used to be extremely difficult to take a well defended keep with one hole because of everyone pounding siege and oil in that one spot. It forced players to open more holes to take it. Not only were those fights a ton of fun and there was a sense of accomplishment after taking or holding a keep in those situations, but it enhanced the pvp experience for many. We have seen this story before and it did not result in no one attacking and increased turtiling. It resulted in more strategy, tactics, organization, and skill to pull off. This is what made it so interesting.
Currently you punch a hole and run through it no problem. No strategy. no tactics. little orginization. boring experience for all. Hell even ball groups hate being a ball group. It is boring as hell. When the answer to your problem is one based on strategy and tactics, then that is fine, Complaining about not wanting to siege multiple holes or too lazy to repair etc is not a reason to not implement it. Additionally, this will only be the case for the well defended keeps which are usually next in line. for example, when alessia is taken yellow goes to sej then BRK etc. The difficulty in taking a well defended keep will change the strategy of groups and push them to fight more in oppents backfield and taking less defended keeps quickly (a 50/50) which will pull players off of another front line keep making it easier for other players to take that keep.
I never said the current system is good. But removing AOE caps is not the only solution. Rewarding small groups (and offensive play) will lead to players sieging separately, either different keeps or different walls. IMO 20v20 is a zerg to me, its extremely unorganised.This change brings with it more startegy, tactics, organization, timing, skill, team work, and serves to spread people out on the overall map and in keep battles. If you dont like having to siege walls etc, then you are playing the wrong game. This game is meant to be large scale warfare premised around keep taking and seiging. This is what brought many players to the game. This is how the game was advertised from the beginning.
I am saying i have a better solution. I don't mind having to siege walls, now its all about finding the keep with the star and rushing to it. There is no incentive to split off a small skirmish of 6-8 players to siege a second or third keep. We need reward for small groups. removing AOE caps will destroy small group and more organised play. why? because small groups can't make multiple holes. This will also help lower population servers.0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »What if proxy did just raw damageJoy_Division wrote: »If u remove AOE caps, people will turtle during defense. If u have AOE caps, people will zerg during offense. What are you gonna do?
Why exactly would groups turtle themselves in order to defend without AoE caps? As an attacker, that's precisely what I would want them to do because it makes wiping them that much easier.
1) defense gives a lot of AP
2) defenders can stand in a lot of safe zones and still nuke the same spot.
3) Attackers generally make a hole in the wall and *** at the entry point, thus bombarding a huge amount of instakill aoe dot at the entry point repetitively (looking at siege spammers) which means nobody can successfully enter the keep until it gets repaired whilst the defenders constantly get AP for people trying to enter the same hole.
4) People are not smart enough to make multiple holes, plus it will make repairing painful.
Please solve the problem. AOE caps are needed. Buff caps should also be implemented. Heck, if i were zos, i make aoe heals and defensive skills affect only a limited number of people and target party members first. That will make more 2-6 party member groups in cyro then 30 -40 people zerg.
People need to be rewarded for running in smaller groups! Reward them!
See that is the issue. If a keep is well defended, then it should require multiple holes to take. That is strategy and counter strategy at play. Being to lazy to repair the holes afterwards or "not being smart enough" are not excuses.Learn having to apply strategy to a battle such as opening multiple holes when needed are what separate the good from the bad. This is a skill difference and not a mechanic difference such as champ points. This is how players should be separated in pvp. Yes, this requires cleaning up your mess afterwards, but that is part of the game play. Game mechanics should not be balanced on laziness and lack of strategy.
it doesnt solve the turtling problem.
people are going to attack less and turtle more. this would heavily favour high pop factions like ep because u get ap for defending and none for a failed attack. turtling players have a lot of places to stand.
then u have to make the walls break down twice as fast so people can poke holes in the keep like swiss cheese. Do you know how long a siege takes?
from spending 2 hours to achieve effective results in cyro. players have to spend 4 hrs now.
the only way to solve this is to have paper keeps. how about rewarding small groups? isnt my suggestion a lot better than yours?
done correctly siege should take less than a min per wall.
I have never seen siege done correctly then with a group of 6. How big is your zerg? From 100% hp it is downright impossible.Siege used to be dangerous. You used to not be able to stand in it cause it actually hurt. It used to be extremely difficult to take a well defended keep with one hole because of everyone pounding siege and oil in that one spot. It forced players to open more holes to take it. Not only were those fights a ton of fun and there was a sense of accomplishment after taking or holding a keep in those situations, but it enhanced the pvp experience for many. We have seen this story before and it did not result in no one attacking and increased turtiling. It resulted in more strategy, tactics, organization, and skill to pull off. This is what made it so interesting.
Currently you punch a hole and run through it no problem. No strategy. no tactics. little orginization. boring experience for all. Hell even ball groups hate being a ball group. It is boring as hell. When the answer to your problem is one based on strategy and tactics, then that is fine, Complaining about not wanting to siege multiple holes or too lazy to repair etc is not a reason to not implement it. Additionally, this will only be the case for the well defended keeps which are usually next in line. for example, when alessia is taken yellow goes to sej then BRK etc. The difficulty in taking a well defended keep will change the strategy of groups and push them to fight more in oppents backfield and taking less defended keeps quickly (a 50/50) which will pull players off of another front line keep making it easier for other players to take that keep.
I never said the current system is good. But removing AOE caps is not the only solution. Rewarding small groups (and offensive play) will lead to players sieging separately, either different keeps or different walls. IMO 20v20 is a zerg to me, its extremely unorganised.This change brings with it more startegy, tactics, organization, timing, skill, team work, and serves to spread people out on the overall map and in keep battles. If you dont like having to siege walls etc, then you are playing the wrong game. This game is meant to be large scale warfare premised around keep taking and seiging. This is what brought many players to the game. This is how the game was advertised from the beginning.
I am saying i have a better solution. I don't mind having to siege walls, now its all about finding the keep with the star and rushing to it. There is no incentive to split off a small skirmish of 6-8 players to siege a second or third keep. We need reward for small groups. removing AOE caps will destroy small group and more organised play. why? because small groups can't make multiple holes. This will also help lower population servers.
siege done correctly means max siege on a wall. When you have 18-20 siege the wall goes down quick. Even when I run in a small group you can run 2-3 siege to bring down the wall within 2-3 min.
The incentive for small groups is to flag a keep or taking resources to not only cut transit to the keep you want to take, but also for the points associated with tkaing resources.
I differentiate between a zerg and an organized group. A zerg is a raid or more of players who are not organized and just follow the train of people from keep to keep. A group of 20 that is in TS employing startegy and tactics is not a zerg IMO. but we all have different understandings of the word so that is fine.
An organized group will siege a keep while deploying a special ops group to flag keeps and take resources. Basically, cuase chaos behind enemy lines. Small group incentive is to take care of those smaller operations in order to further the overall goal of the alliance. For instance, AD group is sieging BRK. A small group goes to Arrius to cut transit by flagging or resources. Or a small groups to cut take resources at farragut or kingscrest which forces people from the main line to take those resources back.
The incentive is to further an overall strategy to win the campaign. Additinally, with 5 person group going to be the best sized group to max AP gain in the next update will be another incentive to run these small groups.1 -
xellink✭✭✭bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »bowmanz607 wrote: »What if proxy did just raw damageJoy_Division wrote: »If u remove AOE caps, people will turtle during defense. If u have AOE caps, people will zerg during offense. What are you gonna do?
Why exactly would groups turtle themselves in order to defend without AoE caps? As an attacker, that's precisely what I would want them to do because it makes wiping them that much easier.
1) defense gives a lot of AP
2) defenders can stand in a lot of safe zones and still nuke the same spot.
3) Attackers generally make a hole in the wall and *** at the entry point, thus bombarding a huge amount of instakill aoe dot at the entry point repetitively (looking at siege spammers) which means nobody can successfully enter the keep until it gets repaired whilst the defenders constantly get AP for people trying to enter the same hole.
4) People are not smart enough to make multiple holes, plus it will make repairing painful.
Please solve the problem. AOE caps are needed. Buff caps should also be implemented. Heck, if i were zos, i make aoe heals and defensive skills affect only a limited number of people and target party members first. That will make more 2-6 party member groups in cyro then 30 -40 people zerg.
People need to be rewarded for running in smaller groups! Reward them!
See that is the issue. If a keep is well defended, then it should require multiple holes to take. That is strategy and counter strategy at play. Being to lazy to repair the holes afterwards or "not being smart enough" are not excuses.Learn having to apply strategy to a battle such as opening multiple holes when needed are what separate the good from the bad. This is a skill difference and not a mechanic difference such as champ points. This is how players should be separated in pvp. Yes, this requires cleaning up your mess afterwards, but that is part of the game play. Game mechanics should not be balanced on laziness and lack of strategy.
it doesnt solve the turtling problem.
people are going to attack less and turtle more. this would heavily favour high pop factions like ep because u get ap for defending and none for a failed attack. turtling players have a lot of places to stand.
then u have to make the walls break down twice as fast so people can poke holes in the keep like swiss cheese. Do you know how long a siege takes?
from spending 2 hours to achieve effective results in cyro. players have to spend 4 hrs now.
the only way to solve this is to have paper keeps. how about rewarding small groups? isnt my suggestion a lot better than yours?
done correctly siege should take less than a min per wall.
I have never seen siege done correctly then with a group of 6. How big is your zerg? From 100% hp it is downright impossible.Siege used to be dangerous. You used to not be able to stand in it cause it actually hurt. It used to be extremely difficult to take a well defended keep with one hole because of everyone pounding siege and oil in that one spot. It forced players to open more holes to take it. Not only were those fights a ton of fun and there was a sense of accomplishment after taking or holding a keep in those situations, but it enhanced the pvp experience for many. We have seen this story before and it did not result in no one attacking and increased turtiling. It resulted in more strategy, tactics, organization, and skill to pull off. This is what made it so interesting.
Currently you punch a hole and run through it no problem. No strategy. no tactics. little orginization. boring experience for all. Hell even ball groups hate being a ball group. It is boring as hell. When the answer to your problem is one based on strategy and tactics, then that is fine, Complaining about not wanting to siege multiple holes or too lazy to repair etc is not a reason to not implement it. Additionally, this will only be the case for the well defended keeps which are usually next in line. for example, when alessia is taken yellow goes to sej then BRK etc. The difficulty in taking a well defended keep will change the strategy of groups and push them to fight more in oppents backfield and taking less defended keeps quickly (a 50/50) which will pull players off of another front line keep making it easier for other players to take that keep.
I never said the current system is good. But removing AOE caps is not the only solution. Rewarding small groups (and offensive play) will lead to players sieging separately, either different keeps or different walls. IMO 20v20 is a zerg to me, its extremely unorganised.This change brings with it more startegy, tactics, organization, timing, skill, team work, and serves to spread people out on the overall map and in keep battles. If you dont like having to siege walls etc, then you are playing the wrong game. This game is meant to be large scale warfare premised around keep taking and seiging. This is what brought many players to the game. This is how the game was advertised from the beginning.
I am saying i have a better solution. I don't mind having to siege walls, now its all about finding the keep with the star and rushing to it. There is no incentive to split off a small skirmish of 6-8 players to siege a second or third keep. We need reward for small groups. removing AOE caps will destroy small group and more organised play. why? because small groups can't make multiple holes. This will also help lower population servers.
I differentiate between a zerg and an organized group. A zerg is a raid or more of players who are not organized and just follow the train of people from keep to keep. A group of 20 that is in TS employing startegy and tactics is not a zerg IMO.
the server starts to lag with 20 people spamming aoe. anything w 20 or more is a zerg simply because u have 40 players (20 each side) spamming aoe and who wins the battle is really due to chance.0 -
Tomato✭✭✭✭With the PTS release coming early February hopefully we will see the DLC on the live servers early March. I can only hope they make some AoE cap changes because logging on past 5 pm anymore is just a waste of time1
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Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I hope they will do anything, coz after 5pm class balance means nothing.With the PTS release coming early February hopefully we will see the DLC on the live servers early March. I can only hope they make some AoE cap changes because logging on past 5 pm anymore is just a waste of time0 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AoE caps gone or not ain't going to do *** anyway unless they fix the crazy latency problems.0 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭*Makes threat literally titled "AoE Caps Discussion"*
*Responds that it wasn't actually intended to be a discussion*
*Is a classic ZoS [snip]*
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2024 1:45PMInvictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT2 -
Jaronking✭✭✭✭✭
✭Remove the AOE caps their not helping anyone and just making the game worst for all of us that PVP.1 -
VincentBlanquin✭✭✭its the same case as argonian passives
@ZOS
stop being stubborn as hell and admit you should do wrong in the first place. do what players want. we are the ones who pay your bills, think about it when you get up
Irwen Vincinter - Nord - Dragonknight
Irw´en - Bosmer - Nightblade1 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭So can we close this thread now that pts is here and there is another thread for wrote questions? @ZOS_GinaBruno0 -
Nutshotz✭✭✭✭It's safe to say that what wrobel said he was doing he did the exact opposite like usual. No offense. For once we all wish the you wrobel would just listen to the pvper's like you do to the pver's. Kinda one sided don't you think..... may not be on topic be meh.2
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PeaNutShotz wrote: »It's safe to say that what wrobel said he was doing he did the exact opposite like usual. No offense. For once we all wish the you wrobel would just listen to the pvper's like you do to the pver's. Kinda one sided don't you think..... may not be on topic be meh.
I like your thought. But please, grammar!0 -
Anzriel✭✭✭✭Guys, I can understand still wanting this thread to keep going in hoping that pressure will make them roll back this nonsense, but it isn't going to happen. AoE caps probably won't be touched. Given the positive reaction that they would get, if they planned to remove them don't you think it'd be announced by now? They just don't want to face the backlash of ignoring the vast majority of the pvp playerbase and removing caps. I'd assume they're just hoping we eventually give up and they can let the topic die.1
to ESO Live! 
