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AoE Caps Discussion
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Docmandu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Damn going to need more popcorn once Wrobel posts the fixes he has in store for Templars.. if they are as good as the AoE fixes, we're in for a treat!5 -
eliisra✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is a reason caps are in place, and ZOS doesnt want to communicate it. The reason they dont want to communicate it is because the reason is not something they want shared. Its my strong opinion that AOE caps are largely in place for the casual player base to do ball group mentality and have a place in the world. If you remember at release, people were slaughtered in mass by players that understood the ult gen system and ripped through fields of inexperienced players that didnt know what was going on.
I dont think that's the main or only explanation. No AoE caps would trivialize instanced PvE, dungeons and trials. It would also make grinding faster, more gold, faster xp, more loot.
I believe they're unable to separate the two, having different mechanics depending on map or target.
Than you have farm *** like IC, with both players and NPC's mixed together. How would they make the system work there, with target caps on the NPC but no target cap on players? Not to mention all the CP grind caves in Cyrodiil. Zenimax just cant pull it of.
Really doubt it has anything to do with "casuals" because pug zergs aren't the ones stacking or following a crown like a religion. Only time you see the pug zerg stack is when taking flags. Half of them prefers sitting in sneak with a bow watching others siege, rest behaves like a semi-spread but massive horde storming the field like you're watching some old ESO trailer.
They're also not aware(usually) that stacking on crown with 25 more guys gives you a massive dmg mitigation, as well as the advantage of being in range of synergies, heals and support skills.5 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I dont think that's the main or only explanation. No AoE caps would trivialize instanced PvE, dungeons and trials. It would also make grinding faster, more gold, faster xp, more loot.
Trivialize PvE? Are you kidding?
With the exception of VMA, VDSA, Sanctum, WGT, ICP -- PvE is absolutely trivial already. The number of times when the AoE cap would matter in the 5 zones I just described is minimal. In fact, I would challenge you to example an encounter in any of those places where an uncapped AoE would trivialize its completion.
Unless there is a hidden server performance issue associated with AoE caps that they are not telling us about, @Fengrush is totally correct in his assessment. They make 0 sense otherwise. It is an artificial bonus to players that... already have an advantage!!!Edited by Ishammael on December 7, 2015 6:38PM3 -
Cryhavoc✭✭✭A quick side note: most of the time it takes MINUTES to get on your horse in Cyrodiil as a healer, due to some bug/glitch/intended function associated with being in combat.
If they nerf Retreating Maneuvers, how will I RETREAT?1 -
ThatNeonZebraAgain✭✭✭✭✭There is a reason caps are in place, and ZOS doesnt want to communicate it. The reason they dont want to communicate it is because the reason is not something they want shared. Its my strong opinion that AOE caps are largely in place for the casual player base to do ball group mentality and have a place in the world. If you remember at release, people were slaughtered in mass by players that understood the ult gen system and ripped through fields of inexperienced players that didnt know what was going on.
I dont think that's the main or only explanation. No AoE caps would trivialize instanced PvE, dungeons and trials. It would also make grinding faster, more gold, faster xp, more loot.
I believe they're unable to separate the two, having different mechanics depending on map or target.
Than you have farm *** like IC, with both players and NPC's mixed together. How would they make the system work there, with target caps on the NPC but no target cap on players? Not to mention all the CP grind caves in Cyrodiil. Zenimax just cant pull it of.
Really doubt it has anything to do with "casuals" because pug zergs aren't the ones stacking or following a crown like a religion. Only time you see the pug zerg stack is when taking flags. Half of them prefers sitting in sneak with a bow watching others siege, rest behaves like a semi-spread but massive horde storming the field like you're watching some old ESO trailer.
They're also not aware(usually) that stacking on crown with 25 more guys gives you a massive dmg mitigation, as well as the advantage of being in range of synergies, heals and support skills.
Good points. However, even as it is now with AoE caps, grinding is more limited by respawn rates than kill times, so I don't think anything would really change.Edited by ThatNeonZebraAgain on December 7, 2015 7:06PMGore-of-the-Forest Argonian Nightblade
Wode Earthrender Breton Dragonknight
Ceol the Last Baron Redguard Dragonknight
Wayra High Elf Sorceress
Erebain Salothran Dark Elf Templar
Rituals-of-the-Forest Argonian Warden0 -
Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭STUFF
Really disappointing to hear of a single target nerf to Magicka Detonation. With -50% damage, the Hardy CP Star, and still plenty of dodge rolling going on, it is one of the last tools Magicka players have to burst heavily defensive players down with.
Can we get some more options for spell penetration?
Edited by Xeven on December 7, 2015 7:36PM4 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭The rage over Wrobel 'not responding' is hilarious. It is almost like he has a job to do and wanted peoples ideas on it...1 -
jrkhan✭✭✭There is a reason caps are in place, and ZOS doesnt want to communicate it. The reason they dont want to communicate it is because the reason is not something they want shared. Its my strong opinion that AOE caps are largely in place for the casual player base to do ball group mentality and have a place in the world. If you remember at release, people were slaughtered in mass by players that understood the ult gen system and ripped through fields of inexperienced players that didnt know what was going on.
I dont think that's the main or only explanation. No AoE caps would trivialize instanced PvE, dungeons and trials. It would also make grinding faster, more gold, faster xp, more loot.
I believe they're unable to separate the two, having different mechanics depending on map or target.
Than you have farm *** like IC, with both players and NPC's mixed together. How would they make the system work there, with target caps on the NPC but no target cap on players? Not to mention all the CP grind caves in Cyrodiil. Zenimax just cant pull it of.
Really doubt it has anything to do with "casuals" because pug zergs aren't the ones stacking or following a crown like a religion. Only time you see the pug zerg stack is when taking flags. Half of them prefers sitting in sneak with a bow watching others siege, rest behaves like a semi-spread but massive horde storming the field like you're watching some old ESO trailer.
They're also not aware(usually) that stacking on crown with 25 more guys gives you a massive dmg mitigation, as well as the advantage of being in range of synergies, heals and support skills.
I don't really agree with either explanation.
No one was asking for aoe caps to be removed in pve.
Targets with battle spirit take full damage from AOEs, problem solved.
I refuse to believe the code is so poorly factored that they can't determine if a target is a player or not.
I suspect the biggest reason is the one they directly stated:
They don't want to change too many things at once.
This is also something I've heard countless posters talk about, preferring incremental change to sweeping changes.
We really can't complain about them not listening to the community in that regard.
Nothing in @Wrobel 's response led me to believe that removing AOE caps was off the table, for either technical or gameplay reasons.
It's just not the thing they are going to adjust first, because it effects all AOE abilities instead of specific skills and siege.
Personally, I don't believe the current batch of changes go far enough, especially in open field combat.
But @FENGRUSH , I wouldn't be disappointed - it sounds like they are trying, and doing so in a logical manner.Edited by jrkhan on December 7, 2015 9:36PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »The rage over Wrobel 'not responding' is hilarious. It is almost like he has a job to do and wanted peoples ideas on it...
Well he did exactly as people foretold he would (what makes the issue even worse).
The game has problems in some parts directly related to his job. He asked the players about feedback on one of those topics (suggesting a discussion). Then replied (two weeks later) and ignored all the feedback he got and even his original question.
He´s not doing a good job in engaging a dialogue with the community he initiated himself - it´s either poor etiquette or downright rude...
Edited by Derra on December 7, 2015 9:25PM<Noricum>
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Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
jrkhan✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »The rage over Wrobel 'not responding' is hilarious. It is almost like he has a job to do and wanted peoples ideas on it...
Well he did exactly as people foretold he would (what makes the issue even worse).
The game has problems in some parts directly related to his job. He asked the players about feedback on one of those topics (suggesting a discussion). Then replied (two weeks later) and ignored all the feedback he got and even his original question.
He´s not doing a good job in engaging a dialogue with the community he initiated himself - it´s either poor etiquette or downright rude...
Look, no one is more in favor of removing AOE caps than I am, but this sort of toxic attitude does nothing to further the discussion, or enhance communication between players and devs on this forum.
The changes to abilities and siege mentioned DIRECTLY address many of the concerns expressed here.
It's not the particular solution we'd prefer, but I understand why they don't want to change too many things at once.
If I were reading this thread as a dev, I'd probably be much more responsive if I didn't come across posts like this.Edited by jrkhan on December 7, 2015 11:03PM2 -
Remdale✭✭The devs are reading our posts. Criticism, suggestions, constructive feedback is what they need to see. Toxic attitude is not. It's great that the devs are reading our posts no matter what your opinion is if you're for ESO then you're for that so if you can't say something in a constructive manner, then for the rest of us maybe you shouldn't post.
Seriously, if you're a dev that has actually read this thread, thank you.
*cough* remove AoE caps *cough*
Edited by Remdale on December 7, 2015 11:38PM3 -
Jhunn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
What do you think the first 15 pages of this thread consisted of? Criticism, suggestions and constructive feedback. What did we get?The devs are reading our posts. Criticism, suggestions, constructive feedback is what they need to see. Toxic attitude is not. It's great that the devs are reading our posts no matter what your opinion is if you're for ESO then you're for that so if you can't say something in a constructive manner, then for the rest of us maybe you shouldn't post.
Yeah.Gave up.6 -
MrGrimey✭✭✭✭✭STUFF
Really disappointing to hear of a single target nerf to Magicka Detonation. With -50% damage, the Hardy CP Star, and still plenty of dodge rolling going on, it is one of the last tools Magicka players have to burst heavily defensive players down with.
Can we get some more options for spell penetration?
Exactly what I said... Det was one of the last things that magicka classes had to enable them to hang with the 4k+ weapon damage stamina builds, and don't get me started on all the 1h/shield DKs that magicka classes can't even put a dent on0 -
Remdale✭✭Just because the majority of the people posting here want something doesn't mean it will be done and it shouldn't necessarily..... the point is you're being heard, and they actually try to do things about players' concerns. It's a good thing.
Let's keep it civil guys.
On the topic of AoE caps, I tried to play for a few minutes last night, went to the only fight on the map and what did I experience? Unplayable lag, rolling blobs of players competing over a keep - literally. The blob would roll past, then come around from another direction, or another one would appear, etc. Really *** TBH, and I quit and didn't return. THIS is why players are so passionate about AoE caps, please understand devs, and know that I am not normally for drastic changes but this needs to be firmly addressed and before the next DLC for crying out loud. There's just nothing positive to say about that kind of PvP experience.3 -
CtrlAltDlt✭✭✭
LmaoPC NA - jeazzy
stamblade outnumbered pvp vol 1. youtu.be/h1ONYfpAJJ8
Stamblade outbumbered pvp vol 2. No cheese youtu.be/rN4_aRVMvWw0 -
Ara_Valleria✭✭✭✭✭°‡° ÁDAMANT °‡°
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••••••| YOUTUBE |••••••Want to take a break from all the Lagging|Crashing|Cancer ?
Play Albion Online1 -
jim.chronous_ESOSoul Shrivenjim.chronous_ESO wrote: »What about removing AOE caps for damage based on proximity. For example Steel Tornado does damage to a radius of 12.5 meters. Everyone within 6 meters gets 100% damage while those further away get reduced damage. Same with healing, with Grand Heal the closer a player is to the center of the cast gets more healing then those at the exterior ring. This could be an interesting compromise having a type AOE caps and removing them completely.
I think that would require even more calculations on the server end, thus causing more lag
I'm not sure how the server calculates and picks 6 players which receive full damage versus reduced damage. But I would think that a standard area based calculation would be easier on the server. IDK just a thought.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I appreciate you linking the video I created in response to Zenimax's handling of this topic. I don't mean to sound snarky and egotistical and I'd say this even if it was not my video, but you ought to acknowledge the creators of stuff that you link or cite ... because it did take time and effort Edited by Joy_Division on December 8, 2015 7:16AMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.3 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The last caps that got removed after many requests from the community turned out to kind of missed and many members of the community now pretend they never wanted those caps gone.
Let's hope that if AoE cap gets removed, we don't end up with the same situation.0 -
prootch✭✭✭some stick to that idea... then will have to acknowledge that it will not change lag... just make it easier for full aoespam lag warbands to wipe others full aozspam lag warbands... and the game would end up in endless lag clashes of full aoespam lag warband.0
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »The rage over Wrobel 'not responding' is hilarious. It is almost like he has a job to do and wanted peoples ideas on it...
Well he did exactly as people foretold he would (what makes the issue even worse).
The game has problems in some parts directly related to his job. He asked the players about feedback on one of those topics (suggesting a discussion). Then replied (two weeks later) and ignored all the feedback he got and even his original question.
He´s not doing a good job in engaging a dialogue with the community he initiated himself - it´s either poor etiquette or downright rude...
Look, no one is more in favor of removing AOE caps than I am, but this sort of toxic attitude does nothing to further the discussion, or enhance communication between players and devs on this forum.
The changes to abilities and siege mentioned DIRECTLY address many of the concerns expressed here.
It's not the particular solution we'd prefer, but I understand why they don't want to change too many things at once.
If I were reading this thread as a dev, I'd probably be much more responsive if I didn't come across posts like this.
The changes expressed especially siege become invalid as soon as you´re either fighting on a hillside (can´t place siege) or dare to step foot into their pvp DLC imperial city where you´re not even allowed to place siege.
On top of that - what about my comment is toxic exactly?
If a dev can´t handle people having a negative opinion about the results of their work they have the wrong job imho. Also nothing of my statement is wrong - so stating the truth is toxic for you?Edited by Derra on December 8, 2015 8:56AM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505 -
Jhunn✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You couldn't be more off, Prootchsome stick to that idea... then will have to acknowledge that it will not change lag... just make it easier for full aoespam lag warbands to wipe others full aozspam lag warbands... and the game would end up in endless lag clashes of full aoespam lag warband.
Nothing new there actually. Edited by Jhunn on December 8, 2015 8:07AMGave up.1 -
prootch✭✭✭Well, there is a kind of immorality not to stick to one's conviction
Seems zos is not going for aoe decap anyway.
Just hope they will now provide distance dd spells that will make spamballs less efficient.Edited by prootch on December 8, 2015 8:30AM0 -
Essiaga✭✭✭✭Personally I think vast majority of so called casuals dont even know AoE caps exist. Sticking to other ppl for more safety is just natural reflex, I dont think it has much to do with AoE caps. And if they were removed, these ppl wouldnt change the way they play.
Organized raids of course, thats something completely different. Those are taking advantage of caps on purpose, no doubt about that.
I agree - I dont think many casual players know that AOE caps exist. But they join a group and thats how the group is run and they do what they know/told to do in the group. They wouldnt change their playstyle at first, they would complain - and then change their style, or conform to something new that develops.
Either way it will be better.
Brian Wheeler demonstrated why AOE caps are in and are not going to be removed on his white board. The more targets you hit the more calculation the servers has to process and the more lag there is.
Look at some of the skills that have gone since then or effectively disable. AOE effects. Destro staff gets weaker and weaker. Wasn't Wall of Elements really good at one point? Blinding flashes and other skills with miss chance where removed or nerfed as well and the reign of the DK ended and along with them went the Templars.
The skills being unlocked were Allianec skills. Riase of the Zerg. What other skills would people be getting into around the time of the lighting update? Most people were already Vet and working their way through Silver and gold if not already done.
Its either Alliance skills or its the Guild skills cause no one uses Undaunted skills. BWB didn't have the lag issues and still isn't anywhere near as bad as Vet campaigns.
He also pointed out due to siege they have to account for the radius of siege meaning more calculations for each player due to the larger radius. They're going to make siege more powerful in hopes that it breaks up the Ball group but are these groups going to scatter out side the radius of Siege? It would make more sense for them to make it so siege only effected walls and not players. Then the could lower the radius to that of player skills which is like 45m(?).0 -
Jitterbug✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭were here waiting to be proven wrong
Exactly the point, yes. Please prove us wrong!
As I said in another thread I'm sure all the mythical prejudice we (I) have about Wrobel are wrong in some regard. He's most likely a skilled developer, a good guy, and all that. But the lack of useful communication makes it very hard not to make your own stories about what is going on behind the curtain.
Which is why we as a community now feel that Wheeler is like Robin Hood fighting the good fight on our behalf and Wrobel is like the sheriff of Nottingham leaning back, enjoying the wealth, and suppressing the masses. Most likely a blatant lie and pure fabrication, but perceptions like that is what you get when you don't stand up and say; "Look, *** King Richard is on an expensive crusade and you guys are paying for it, how do you like me now?"4 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭There's no need for Wheeler to play Robin Hood for the PvP community when Cyrodiil itself is littered with stupid bugs we encounter over and over and which are not Wrobel's fault.Edited by Lava_Croft on December 8, 2015 10:38AM0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG9kq2I6mPE
