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[Bug][Game Breaking] Look at the skills you changed yesterday again.
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UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »
We don't blame anyone for having some bottled up conflicts with Zenimax for what you have seen in your earlier days of the PC version but things are MUCH better since then and will only continue to get better. That is all we imply, nothing more. Also if I hated a company for doing a poor job I would not play any of their games no matter what lol
LOL! Oh, really?
Were you here for that? Things are NOT much better, they are worse. Just because we have new content doesn't mean things are much better. The state of the game isn't better than it was. Not only do we have the same bugs we've had for a year and a half, we have more added on top of that. PVP is terrible compared to what it was at launch, lag is worse than it was. Where oh where, kind sir, do you see that things are MUCH better? I'm sorry but in this case, you don't know what your talking about.
Also, I never said I hate the company. Disappointed in them? Hell yes. They made a fantastic game, they just do a pyss poor job of upkeep.
I am aware of how the game was before console got it. I am aware of more than you know apparently lol and while I know everyone tends to base their opinions on certain aspects of the game that does not mean it in general makes the overall game good or bad. Overall though much has improved while as you say some things stayed the same, for better or for worse.Edited by UltimaJoe777 on November 10, 2015 3:47PMGuildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
AkeGamer✭✭JasonL and Gina were advised of the NB Refreshing Path bug as early as 1:36pm Eastern yesterday. Bringing it up this morning is kinda slow.3 -
Hateanthem✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »PaddingtonBear wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »I just want them to seriously stop doing weird things and for them to take their customers seriously both here and in customer support.
They don't do it on purpose though, but I understand how you feel. On the bright side things like this can be amusing until they get fixed lol which does actually happen quite soon depending on the magnitude of any potential game breaking and how soon they can find a fix for it. I know there are some that were not so soon but they did eventually get fixed anyway did they not?omfgitsbatman wrote: »Incoming: "We understand that blah blah... But keep things civil" Post.
Well I'd say you just saved them having to do that, but they might do it anyway lol
Its not amusing when people exploit it and the next day u see vmsa leaderboards full of nbs in top 100.
I like eso I really want to but the bugs are just ...
Well it's more of a "get your kicks out of it and rob as many people's telvar stones and farm vMA before its fixed" kind of amusement because usually there is a rollback or a wipe of some sort to rectify the "damage done" lol but yeah I feel ya too many exploit abusers in ESO as is.
Fixed the level of amusement for you...
Clearly you did not read what else I posted otherwise you would not have done something so uncalled for. You also did a terrible job at editing because you snipped some of the point I am referring to.If you haven't been here for the entirety of ESO's life (or just a long azz time) then please refrain from telling those who HAVE been here for a year and a half of dealing with ZOS that they need to look at things differently or in a more positive manner.
You don't know us.
You haven't been through it with us.
You'd be jaded too if you were us.
Sorry but honestly that is grating on my nerves.
Ofc no one expects ZOS to be perfect. But you have no idea how frustrating it can be to be a consumer of this product. ( I believe I got that line from one awesome @Joy_Division) Why? Because you haven't been here long enough to have dealt with the incompetence.
/rant
Zos, fix the damn exploits. Bugs be damned, exploits ruin a game.
We don't blame anyone for having some bottled up conflicts with Zenimax for what you have seen in your earlier days of the PC version but things are MUCH better since then and will only continue to get better. That is all we imply, nothing more. Also if I hated a company for doing a poor job I would not play any of their games no matter what lol
So uh... I played during the early days. Yeah some of those bugs are fixed, but there's new ones now. So no...doesn't feel all that much better. You can be a screaming fangirl and not care about the quality of the product all you want, but in most industries, you would be canned for pushing out a product with this many defects.3 -
Scyantific✭✭✭✭✭
✭"hey guys we need to improve game performance, how can we do that?"
"I know! let's nerf DoTs and not test them!"
"Brilliant idea, nerf all the DoTs and ship em. Tell em we're doing it to 'improve performance.'"
"Should we test them to make sure we didn't break them first?"
"No, and you're fired for suggesting we do our own QA. That's why we have the suckers, er I mean players, on PC for. To test our patches."4 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Weird bugs popping up I can understand, like interactions with other gear, traits etc...these things are hard to account for because there are many factors and variables.
But in the Refreshing Path case, all they needed to do was test one cast of it and they would clearly see the math is off by 10x.0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can't believe they have not replied to this thread yet.
Another thread in the Combat area:ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »We're working on getting this fixed as soon as possible. Thanks, guys!
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Scyantific✭✭✭✭✭
✭Weird bugs popping up I can understand, like interactions with other gear, traits etc...these things are hard to account for because there are many factors and variables.
But in the Refreshing Path case, all they needed to do was test one cast of it and they would clearly see the math is off by 10x.
Testing is hard for ZOS since they fired their entire QA department.
Why have internal QA when you've got an entire userbase of suckers PAYING to test your game!
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Daveheart✭✭✭✭I can't believe they have not replied to this thread yet.
That's because they've already replied to the other thread on this topic:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/230244/refreshing-path-broken-even-in-cyro/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2433953/#Comment_2433953
Tick's thread (this one) was started after the other one, so I guess that's why they replied to the other one. They'd usually do something like merge the two threads. Regardless, they've said they're working on a fix.Edited by Daveheart on November 10, 2015 4:40PMDaggerfall Covenant (PC-NA)
The Order of Mundus | Nightfighters0 -
Wycks✭✭✭✭ZOS has clearly been running a skeleton crew of developers for some time now, nothing else would explain the sheer amount unfixed bugs, but also the amount of fixed bugs that get re-introduced into the game.
The numbers thing is always going to be there, but it’s more down to player skill and there are ways through ability choice to configure a group to be stronger vs. large groups of people. - BRAIN WHEELER - 2012 - LOL5 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Hateanthem wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »I_killed_Vivec wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »PaddingtonBear wrote: »UltimaJoe777 wrote: »I just want them to seriously stop doing weird things and for them to take their customers seriously both here and in customer support.
They don't do it on purpose though, but I understand how you feel. On the bright side things like this can be amusing until they get fixed lol which does actually happen quite soon depending on the magnitude of any potential game breaking and how soon they can find a fix for it. I know there are some that were not so soon but they did eventually get fixed anyway did they not?omfgitsbatman wrote: »Incoming: "We understand that blah blah... But keep things civil" Post.
Well I'd say you just saved them having to do that, but they might do it anyway lol
Its not amusing when people exploit it and the next day u see vmsa leaderboards full of nbs in top 100.
I like eso I really want to but the bugs are just ...
Well it's more of a "get your kicks out of it and rob as many people's telvar stones and farm vMA before its fixed" kind of amusement because usually there is a rollback or a wipe of some sort to rectify the "damage done" lol but yeah I feel ya too many exploit abusers in ESO as is.
Fixed the level of amusement for you...
Clearly you did not read what else I posted otherwise you would not have done something so uncalled for. You also did a terrible job at editing because you snipped some of the point I am referring to.If you haven't been here for the entirety of ESO's life (or just a long azz time) then please refrain from telling those who HAVE been here for a year and a half of dealing with ZOS that they need to look at things differently or in a more positive manner.
You don't know us.
You haven't been through it with us.
You'd be jaded too if you were us.
Sorry but honestly that is grating on my nerves.
Ofc no one expects ZOS to be perfect. But you have no idea how frustrating it can be to be a consumer of this product. ( I believe I got that line from one awesome @Joy_Division) Why? Because you haven't been here long enough to have dealt with the incompetence.
/rant
Zos, fix the damn exploits. Bugs be damned, exploits ruin a game.
We don't blame anyone for having some bottled up conflicts with Zenimax for what you have seen in your earlier days of the PC version but things are MUCH better since then and will only continue to get better. That is all we imply, nothing more. Also if I hated a company for doing a poor job I would not play any of their games no matter what lol
So uh... I played during the early days. Yeah some of those bugs are fixed, but there's new ones now. So no...doesn't feel all that much better. You can be a screaming fangirl and not care about the quality of the product all you want, but in most industries, you would be canned for pushing out a product with this many defects.
Well I'm sure screaming fangirls everywhere tend to just stick to their screaming, or squeeing as it is called these days lol and yes new bugs will always appear when old ones are fixed and some old ones are not fixed yet but there is more to look into that just "out with the old in with the new" ya know. And believe me it's not that I don't understand how PC Players feel and all it's just that sometimes it seems like after all they have been through they don't want to give Zenimax the benefit of the doubt whatsoever which, again, is understandable and while console players do have a somewhat clean slate to work with it's not like we don't know how much this game has changed since its PC only days. Change isn't just certain aspects after all, it is pretty much every single element of the game. Of course some will say it is better and some will say it is worse depending on who is impacted by what but all things considered would you rather go back to exactly how the game was upon PC launch as opposed to how it is now? No doubt many of the PC Players would say yes and I would not blame them for saying it but I do believe once the game is more complete things will indeed get alot better! That is all I stick to.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, coders make mistakes. But the frequency with which zeni's coding mistakes make it into the live environment indicates a serious breakdown in QA. Every tech industry I've worked with has production validation as part of the change management policy. Changes are tested in house (then sometimes by your customers in a test environment), then the system is taken offline to push the changes live.
Then - while the system is still down - your testing team validates and signs off on all changes made, as well as general functionality and stability. Only after all validation signoffs are received is the system declared "live" and reopened to all users. Even emergency changes should go through a truncated version of this process.
It's clearly missing, or done poorly, in the zeni studio.
Anybody in ZOS that is knowledgable about "Refreshing Path" would spot in a second from the tooltip that something is utterly wrong.
you say:
Only after all validation signoffs are received is the system declared "live" and reopened to all users
I do not know whether such a procedure is really in place at ZOS. But I do have the experience that if QA people are focussing on the signatures and procedures, they do not necessarily get back "a content check".
QA, following their handbooks, with external audits and all, only secures that a chain of functionalities and persons is co-responsible for the outcome.... nothing else!
Because QA and the auditing upon it, is a separate flow in any big company, or better, in an industry as a whole, QA do not tend to be intimately knowledgable about the content. In fact, they see such a lack often as a positive (QA is "de facto" independant).
But that makes the outcome of the QA process completely dependant on either the check on the paperwork that orders the change, becoming "the customer" (the official version) or the repairs of some operational line people in that process (normally used as "customers" by QA & the suits to have an alibi when things go wrong
)
Summarising: it would not surprise me when the shackles in the QA-chain that normally in the industry take care of the "content check" are poorly implemented at ZOS.
added:
A normal dilemma in finding & using "knowledgable" people in the QA check, is that the more practical and the more knowledgable people are, the less comfortable they feel with the gibberish paperwork they have to sign off. They often succumb in the process and degrade to an alibi over time.
Edited by hrothbern on November 10, 2015 5:51PM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU1 -
ssewallb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭LOL. I wonder what the MSA leaderboards will look like at the end of this week.2 -
DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don't fix it ZoS! I just started a new nightblade in Daggerfall last night and haven't leveled up enough to use it! Please, hold off! I want to try!
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Eiagra✭✭✭✭✭Wow. Walked in to check out a bug and instead discovered a lot of deconstructive, unhelpful criticisms of your's aimed at the development team responsible for putting this game together. Consumer privilege much?
Just because we're throwing money at a game doesn't mean it's being coded by Zenithar or something. Nope, just plain ordinary humans here. Perhaps one should just learn to deal with the fallibilities of human mortals, eh?
As for the issue at hand, I imagine that now it's brought to light that it will be remedied next patch. That's all there is to it.Edited by Eiagra on November 10, 2015 8:27PM██████ █████████ ███████ In verity.1 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
You must be new here. Welcome!Wow. Walked in to check out a bug and instead discovered a lot of deconstructive, unhelpful criticisms of your's aimed at the development team responsible for putting this game together. Consumer privilege much?
Just because we're throwing money at a game doesn't mean it's being coded by Zenithar or something. Nope, just plain ordinary humans here. Perhaps one should just learn to deal with the fallibilities of human mortals, eh?
As for the issue at hand, I imagine that now it's brought to light that it will be remedied next patch. That's all there is to it.
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DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wow. Walked in to check out a bug and instead discovered a lot of deconstructive, unhelpful criticisms of your's aimed at the development team responsible for putting this game together. Consumer privilege much?
Just because we're throwing money at a game doesn't mean it's being coded by Zenithar or something. Nope, just plain ordinary humans here. Perhaps one should just learn to deal with the fallibilities of human mortals, eh?
As for the issue at hand, I imagine that now it's brought to light that it will be remedied next patch. That's all there is to it.
Whew! Next patch! That gives me a little time to build up my NB before they fix it. Whew!0 -
Eiagra✭✭✭✭✭[quote="Lava_Croft;2434837"You must be new here. Welcome!
[/quote]
Not so much, no. But I have some insight as to the challenges and difficulties of developing a large project like this, and a bit of sympathy for a fellow human. Particularly those being fired upon by the community they are trying to support.
Ah well, I feel like I'm talking at walls here. No need to discuss it further.██████ █████████ ███████ In verity.0 -
KraziJoe✭✭✭Aren't most QA testers moved somewhere else or fired after a game is live? And then the Player base became the paying QA testers?1
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whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Signed, Kotaro Atani.PS5 NAVR16/ CP 160 Khajiit Nightblade of the Aldmeri Dominion, Guildmaster and Assassin of the Queen's Hand guild on NA PC. PvP Officer in the WOLF guild on NA PS5, and of course Master Thief. Currently 3409 CP out of 3600 CP on NA PS5. Currently 810 CP on NA PC (used for PTS testing purposes only). On PS5 I am also a Master Crafter, all traits done and learned, Jewelry crafting done. all Motifs learned on PS5 except for maybe two-three Motifs. All Companions are Max level as are their Skills.Warrior, Lover, Thief.... Nightblade. Aldmeri Dominion For Life! For the Queen!! Go Dominion or go home ! "I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims. The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake. Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines. Stand with us." ―Your Queen Commands, Ayrenn Arana Aldmeri.(All 18 characters are AD only! This one is a AD Loyalist)Member of ESO Since January 29, 2014, started early Access 3/30/14 on PC, currently subbed on NA PS5 and on NA PC. Note- I only use PC for PTS testing purposes, the PS5 is my dedicated Game Platform.Note- for those that don't know how to say Kotaro Atani it's "Ko tar row Ah ta ni" (Ko with a Oh sound, tar which sounds like the sticky black tar stuff, row like rowing a boat, Ah with a AHHHH sound, Ta with a Tahhh sound, Neeee which sounds like knee)"The blowing sands of time wipe clean the footprints of the past...""Moonsugar may be the key to paradise, but it is through a false door...""A perfect society is always elsewhere..."- Unknown book of Khajiiti proverbs.0 -
Scyantific✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wow. Walked in to check out a bug and instead discovered a lot of deconstructive, unhelpful criticisms of your's aimed at the development team responsible for putting this game together. Consumer privilege much?
Just because we're throwing money at a game doesn't mean it's being coded by Zenithar or something. Nope, just plain ordinary humans here. Perhaps one should just learn to deal with the fallibilities of human mortals, eh?
As for the issue at hand, I imagine that now it's brought to light that it will be remedied next patch. That's all there is to it.
Quote your sources2 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UltimaJoe777 wrote: »You misunderstand. Zenimax is not perfect, nor is anyone else. Mistakes are always made and mistakes are not necessarily intentional, yet people criticize them first chance they get anyway.
I don't want to take a side here, but part of the reason people criticize is that things like this Refreshing Path bug are pretty tough for even casual testing to miss.
Beyond that, ZOS's track record for handling game-breaking, balance-destroying bugs like this is pretty terrible, I have to say. I mean I love you guys ZOS, but stuff like this really needs to be a "take the servers back down IMMEDIATELY, let people cry, but fix it NOW" type a scenario.
Dupe bugs and PVP god mode can't be left to go for weeks or months on end while you "work on researching a solution." If you honestly don't have the coding staff or competence to test and fix these sort of things in a professionally timely fashion then perhaps you need to reconsider your investment priorities.
Even if a rollback is your only option, you do it. Better to bite the bullet then to see customer confidence suffer over prolonged periods of disrupted gameplay.
Magicka NB god mode is pretty disrupting.4 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I feel like I'm talking to someone who is completely oblivious to ZOS' track record of consistently screwing up even the most basic changes, while also consistently taking way too much time with fixing glaring bugs. Couple this to a severe lack of communication between developers and players and see the result: People get fed up.Not so much, no. But I have some insight as to the challenges and difficulties of developing a large project like this, and a bit of sympathy for a fellow human. Particularly those being fired upon by the community they are trying to support.
Ah well, I feel like I'm talking at walls here. No need to discuss it further.
You can have all the insights you claim to have while having double the sympathy you claim to have and still be fed up with a developer doing a consistently bad job and showing no signs of improvement.
Edited by Lava_Croft on November 10, 2015 9:18PM1 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For all you new people or apologists, let me give you a brief history of PvP skill exploits. Note that there are ton's more than just the ones I have listed, these are just some of the more notorious ones. Maybe this will give you some perspective when you really think ZOS is going to drop everything and fix the latest one immediately.
The date: May 2014
The problem: Using caltrops would negate any siege damage when you were standing on the caltrops.
What enemy players did: Exploited the hell out of it. They would throw down paths of caltrops, then rush keeps being immune to siege.
What we did: Filled the forums with angry posts demanding an immediate fix.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/99434/lets-just-say-it-friendly-caltrops-negate-siege-damage/p4
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/99420/caltrops-destroying-seige-warfare-completely-in-cyrodiil
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/105171/caltrops-still-bugged-still-destroying-pvp
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/99606/caltrops-bug-will-be-fixed-after-craglorn-is-that-too-long
What ZOS did: Waited for months to fix it, finally patching it after the next major content patch.
The date: October 2014
The problem: The bow skill Lethal Arrow would apply a healing debuff that would stack. Reducing your healing taken to 0%
What enemy players did: Exploited the hell out of it. Cyrodiil was Elder Bows Online for months
What we did: Here we go again! Trust me these are all good reads.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/136840/lethal-arrow-the-new-i-win
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/139046/lethal-arrow-healing-debuff-stack-intended-vid-included
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/138769/pvp-reduced-to-lethal-arrow
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/139780/stacking-lethal-arrows-from-any-one-player-100-healing-debuff
What ZOS did: Waited about three months. Patched up sometime in December 2014
The date: November 2014
The problem: Trying to purge certain skills like Wall of Elements actually make all of their DOTs tick at the same time.
What enemy players did: What do you think? It would wipe entire raids.
What we did: Filled the forums with angry posts some of which were deleted to keep the exploit under wraps.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/140648/wall-of-elements/p1
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/138152/elemental-blockade-unstable-wall-the-new-impulse
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142466/purge-and-unstable-wall
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142540/purge-bug-not-a-priority
What ZOS did: Deleted some of our threads about it for damage control and waited for months before fixing.
There are many more and I will happily tell you about them if you are interested. But that takes us to this latest game breaking bug that could have easily been prevented with rudimentary QA processes.
Here's the drill:- You will rage.
- You will make 1000 posts about it claiming it has destroyed PvP
- ZOS will delete a few of those posts randomly and arbitrarily - ostensibly to keep people from learning about the exploit (even thought the kahjiit is far out of the bag)
- You will threaten to quit the game
- ZOS will fix it in about 2-3 months
But there is hope! They might be getting better, Rearming Trap only took one full month of insta-gibs and 40k damage hits to fix!!Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on November 10, 2015 9:24PM15
