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PvP Podcast (Episode 7 Uploaded)
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Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with not doing the old ult gen formula - this would require more time and thought. I dont agree with lumping multiple big changes together either, but doing them one at a time. ZOS generally just makes huge changes every new DLC/patch and we end up relearning a new game but the meta of ball groups has always been core due to AOE caps.
I think a lot of people agree with what Im saying, even from ball groups, but take offense when I use the word 'ball group' since it lumps them into a category of what it really is. Its been said enough that its not personally diminishing any of these players personal talent levels in the group. But if people want to ignore that it makes no difference to me. I get that theyre offended and want to come here and lay into me and thats fine - but what Ive said isnt untrue.
Dont lump me in a zerg because I was engaging your group. I actually spent the first 5-10 minutes on the sideline watching it. After that we started picking people off, and frankly, Essa and I were alone in that respect to actually killing people. You were fighting 60 people or whatever, thats fine. You werent however fighting a 60man ball group, because you wouldnt be able to with AOE caps. You would lose pretty badly if 60 people grouped up in the same way. It isnt a matter of strategy, its simply a matter of coordination.
Moving from point A to point B and back to point A isnt something Id consider a strategy either. Everyone who knows whats going on in Cyro can tell what youre going to do long before you do it, but as a smaller group we really dont have an option to counter it. If strategy had any place here, wed have access to some techniques to counter it. The counter is bringing more people and forming a similar group.
Will it make your group stronger against 60 people? Yes it will, and that is a good thing. It will bring less stress to the server. Ball groups do stress the server with the purging and healing that goes on inside them though. This was apparent when ball groups first rolled out that servers started to eat it bad on lag. Before that, not nearly as bad. It really comes down to the overabundant healing/defensive posturing of these ball groups.
Do I expect to walk up with 4 people and knock your ball group down every time? No. In fact the chances of doing that to any decent group is highly unlikely post AOE cap removal. But you guys like to take my words and misconstrue them. The reality is we cant do anything. There isnt a place for the small man group in this battle. This is the problem.
I love folks from K-hole and would love to fight with them on the battlefield. They run a medium sized raid most the time, and I like running a small group. If we fought today and they were 12 and I had a group of 4 vs an enemy of 24 synced in a ball, wed be stupid to fight separate. If AOE caps were removed, they could fight in one manner while the 4 could flank to much greater effect. This doesnt exist today. This did exist moreso in release. This actually has a level of strategy that doesnt revolve around numbers and AOE caps at its core. This is what I want back.
Fair and balanced gameplay - a place for more than ball groups. If they want to fix performance, they have to address ball groups, not 24 man raids. There is a clear difference. If you dont think balling up in 24man groups impacts performance vs 24 people fighting together, you are absolutely and 100% in denial. The reality is many have played like this for so long they dont even know the difference. They would wonder how or why a 24 man group would not fight in a ball. This is truly a sad thing.
RIP: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1
Wow. That poll. How did it go live. I wasn't active on the forums back then. That was 37 pages of no's. How did it go live? I wonder how many would come back. Whole entire guilds that left.2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Darnathian wrote: »I agree with not doing the old ult gen formula - this would require more time and thought. I dont agree with lumping multiple big changes together either, but doing them one at a time. ZOS generally just makes huge changes every new DLC/patch and we end up relearning a new game but the meta of ball groups has always been core due to AOE caps.
I think a lot of people agree with what Im saying, even from ball groups, but take offense when I use the word 'ball group' since it lumps them into a category of what it really is. Its been said enough that its not personally diminishing any of these players personal talent levels in the group. But if people want to ignore that it makes no difference to me. I get that theyre offended and want to come here and lay into me and thats fine - but what Ive said isnt untrue.
Dont lump me in a zerg because I was engaging your group. I actually spent the first 5-10 minutes on the sideline watching it. After that we started picking people off, and frankly, Essa and I were alone in that respect to actually killing people. You were fighting 60 people or whatever, thats fine. You werent however fighting a 60man ball group, because you wouldnt be able to with AOE caps. You would lose pretty badly if 60 people grouped up in the same way. It isnt a matter of strategy, its simply a matter of coordination.
Moving from point A to point B and back to point A isnt something Id consider a strategy either. Everyone who knows whats going on in Cyro can tell what youre going to do long before you do it, but as a smaller group we really dont have an option to counter it. If strategy had any place here, wed have access to some techniques to counter it. The counter is bringing more people and forming a similar group.
Will it make your group stronger against 60 people? Yes it will, and that is a good thing. It will bring less stress to the server. Ball groups do stress the server with the purging and healing that goes on inside them though. This was apparent when ball groups first rolled out that servers started to eat it bad on lag. Before that, not nearly as bad. It really comes down to the overabundant healing/defensive posturing of these ball groups.
Do I expect to walk up with 4 people and knock your ball group down every time? No. In fact the chances of doing that to any decent group is highly unlikely post AOE cap removal. But you guys like to take my words and misconstrue them. The reality is we cant do anything. There isnt a place for the small man group in this battle. This is the problem.
I love folks from K-hole and would love to fight with them on the battlefield. They run a medium sized raid most the time, and I like running a small group. If we fought today and they were 12 and I had a group of 4 vs an enemy of 24 synced in a ball, wed be stupid to fight separate. If AOE caps were removed, they could fight in one manner while the 4 could flank to much greater effect. This doesnt exist today. This did exist moreso in release. This actually has a level of strategy that doesnt revolve around numbers and AOE caps at its core. This is what I want back.
Fair and balanced gameplay - a place for more than ball groups. If they want to fix performance, they have to address ball groups, not 24 man raids. There is a clear difference. If you dont think balling up in 24man groups impacts performance vs 24 people fighting together, you are absolutely and 100% in denial. The reality is many have played like this for so long they dont even know the difference. They would wonder how or why a 24 man group would not fight in a ball. This is truly a sad thing.
RIP: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1
Wow. That poll. How did it go live. I wasn't active on the forums back then. That was 37 pages of no's. How did it go live? I wonder how many would come back. Whole entire guilds that left.
This is zos developtment at it´s finest. [snip] the players we´re going to do it anyway.
The no votes in that topic are most likely more than the population of all campaigns combined in the evenings :P
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]Edited by ZOS_Alex on October 23, 2015 4:58PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 507 -
Ishammael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Darnathian wrote: »I agree with not doing the old ult gen formula - this would require more time and thought. I dont agree with lumping multiple big changes together either, but doing them one at a time. ZOS generally just makes huge changes every new DLC/patch and we end up relearning a new game but the meta of ball groups has always been core due to AOE caps.
I think a lot of people agree with what Im saying, even from ball groups, but take offense when I use the word 'ball group' since it lumps them into a category of what it really is. Its been said enough that its not personally diminishing any of these players personal talent levels in the group. But if people want to ignore that it makes no difference to me. I get that theyre offended and want to come here and lay into me and thats fine - but what Ive said isnt untrue.
Dont lump me in a zerg because I was engaging your group. I actually spent the first 5-10 minutes on the sideline watching it. After that we started picking people off, and frankly, Essa and I were alone in that respect to actually killing people. You were fighting 60 people or whatever, thats fine. You werent however fighting a 60man ball group, because you wouldnt be able to with AOE caps. You would lose pretty badly if 60 people grouped up in the same way. It isnt a matter of strategy, its simply a matter of coordination.
Moving from point A to point B and back to point A isnt something Id consider a strategy either. Everyone who knows whats going on in Cyro can tell what youre going to do long before you do it, but as a smaller group we really dont have an option to counter it. If strategy had any place here, wed have access to some techniques to counter it. The counter is bringing more people and forming a similar group.
Will it make your group stronger against 60 people? Yes it will, and that is a good thing. It will bring less stress to the server. Ball groups do stress the server with the purging and healing that goes on inside them though. This was apparent when ball groups first rolled out that servers started to eat it bad on lag. Before that, not nearly as bad. It really comes down to the overabundant healing/defensive posturing of these ball groups.
Do I expect to walk up with 4 people and knock your ball group down every time? No. In fact the chances of doing that to any decent group is highly unlikely post AOE cap removal. But you guys like to take my words and misconstrue them. The reality is we cant do anything. There isnt a place for the small man group in this battle. This is the problem.
I love folks from K-hole and would love to fight with them on the battlefield. They run a medium sized raid most the time, and I like running a small group. If we fought today and they were 12 and I had a group of 4 vs an enemy of 24 synced in a ball, wed be stupid to fight separate. If AOE caps were removed, they could fight in one manner while the 4 could flank to much greater effect. This doesnt exist today. This did exist moreso in release. This actually has a level of strategy that doesnt revolve around numbers and AOE caps at its core. This is what I want back.
Fair and balanced gameplay - a place for more than ball groups. If they want to fix performance, they have to address ball groups, not 24 man raids. There is a clear difference. If you dont think balling up in 24man groups impacts performance vs 24 people fighting together, you are absolutely and 100% in denial. The reality is many have played like this for so long they dont even know the difference. They would wonder how or why a 24 man group would not fight in a ball. This is truly a sad thing.
RIP: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1
Wow. That poll. How did it go live. I wasn't active on the forums back then. That was 37 pages of no's. How did it go live? I wonder how many would come back. Whole entire guilds that left.
This is zos developtment at it´s finest. F*ck the players we´re going to do it anyway.
The no votes in that topic are most likely more than the population of all campaigns combined in the evenings :P
Even if you combined EU + NA0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darnathian wrote: »I agree with not doing the old ult gen formula - this would require more time and thought. I dont agree with lumping multiple big changes together either, but doing them one at a time. ZOS generally just makes huge changes every new DLC/patch and we end up relearning a new game but the meta of ball groups has always been core due to AOE caps.
I think a lot of people agree with what Im saying, even from ball groups, but take offense when I use the word 'ball group' since it lumps them into a category of what it really is. Its been said enough that its not personally diminishing any of these players personal talent levels in the group. But if people want to ignore that it makes no difference to me. I get that theyre offended and want to come here and lay into me and thats fine - but what Ive said isnt untrue.
Dont lump me in a zerg because I was engaging your group. I actually spent the first 5-10 minutes on the sideline watching it. After that we started picking people off, and frankly, Essa and I were alone in that respect to actually killing people. You were fighting 60 people or whatever, thats fine. You werent however fighting a 60man ball group, because you wouldnt be able to with AOE caps. You would lose pretty badly if 60 people grouped up in the same way. It isnt a matter of strategy, its simply a matter of coordination.
Moving from point A to point B and back to point A isnt something Id consider a strategy either. Everyone who knows whats going on in Cyro can tell what youre going to do long before you do it, but as a smaller group we really dont have an option to counter it. If strategy had any place here, wed have access to some techniques to counter it. The counter is bringing more people and forming a similar group.
Will it make your group stronger against 60 people? Yes it will, and that is a good thing. It will bring less stress to the server. Ball groups do stress the server with the purging and healing that goes on inside them though. This was apparent when ball groups first rolled out that servers started to eat it bad on lag. Before that, not nearly as bad. It really comes down to the overabundant healing/defensive posturing of these ball groups.
Do I expect to walk up with 4 people and knock your ball group down every time? No. In fact the chances of doing that to any decent group is highly unlikely post AOE cap removal. But you guys like to take my words and misconstrue them. The reality is we cant do anything. There isnt a place for the small man group in this battle. This is the problem.
I love folks from K-hole and would love to fight with them on the battlefield. They run a medium sized raid most the time, and I like running a small group. If we fought today and they were 12 and I had a group of 4 vs an enemy of 24 synced in a ball, wed be stupid to fight separate. If AOE caps were removed, they could fight in one manner while the 4 could flank to much greater effect. This doesnt exist today. This did exist moreso in release. This actually has a level of strategy that doesnt revolve around numbers and AOE caps at its core. This is what I want back.
Fair and balanced gameplay - a place for more than ball groups. If they want to fix performance, they have to address ball groups, not 24 man raids. There is a clear difference. If you dont think balling up in 24man groups impacts performance vs 24 people fighting together, you are absolutely and 100% in denial. The reality is many have played like this for so long they dont even know the difference. They would wonder how or why a 24 man group would not fight in a ball. This is truly a sad thing.
RIP: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1
Wow. That poll. How did it go live. I wasn't active on the forums back then. That was 37 pages of no's. How did it go live? I wonder how many would come back. Whole entire guilds that left.
This is zos developtment at it´s finest. [snip] the players we´re going to do it anyway.
The no votes in that topic are most likely more than the population of all campaigns combined in the evenings :P
This just makes me more sad about the way it is now/could be. Fengrush has made me a believer, about the AOE cap removal, that is. Lol. At this point what do they have to lose. Make one server a "player" controlled server. Meaning actually listen to what the majority of players want on that server. Start with aOE cap removal and a roll back to 1.4 or 1.5. I am sure it couldn't be that hard. And remove the damn lighting patch.
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]Edited by ZOS_Alex on October 23, 2015 4:59PM4 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.
Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd
You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them
Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.
NO NO NO a million times NO!!!
Ballgrps themselves (and the underlying game mechanics supporting them) have shaped the large scale pvp in eso so that they have become the definition of large scale combat because no other playstyle when playing objectives is vaible. This is whats wrong about it!
They are a self self institutionalized monarchy when it comes to eso objective pvp.Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »You can easily kill a 24m ball with 12 players also you can avoid their dmg easily. That playstyle is only strong because people don't know how to play against it.
My view is that ALL playstyles should be appreciated in the game. It's what keeps the pvp fun and varied.. it would be boring if everyone played exactly the same style. For example if everyone sat on a hill waiting for people to ride by no one would fight.
Ok some people might take it personally what i´m going to write:
I think banana squad when running with 12 people is just a smaller ballgrp with really good players in it. There i said it. Which basically proves the point - it takes a ballgrp to beat a ballgrp.
I think every playstyle should be vaible too. What i do think on top of that is: Every playstyle should be able to contribute when playing around cyrodiil objectives. This is currently not the case. For objectives it´s ball or bust (when fighting a ballgrp) and thats bad game design.
Okay. What is the definition of ball group? It is being used to describe so many things by different people in this thread. As far as I can tell Ball Group is what some people call any group that they can't wipe. Kind of like when I am in a 5 man and get called a zerg because 15 people can't kill us.
V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
Asmael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭By my definition:Ball group i]b-o-ll g-r-û-p[/i
Group of players stacking on top of the leader with the objective to benefit from AoE caps and the direct damage reduction that comes from it.
A ball group requires a minimum of 7 players.PC EU - Zahraji of the Void, aka "Kitty", the fluffiest salmon genocider in town.
Poke @AsmaeI (last letter is uppercase "i") on PC EU or Asmael#9325 on Discord and receive a meow today.3 -
_Chaos✭✭✭✭✭
✭By my definition:Ball group i]b-o-ll g-r-û-p[/i
Group of players stacking on top of the leader with the objective to benefit from AoE caps and the direct damage reduction that comes from it.
A ball group requires a minimum of 7 players.
I don't think most ball up for damage reduction, it's for the healing and maneuverability, as well as focused damage. I think 99% of the "ball" groups are all for the removal of AOE caps. It benefits them more with no cap when going up against larger numbers.'Chaos0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Darnathian wrote: »Wow. That poll. How did it go live. I wasn't active on the forums back then. That was 37 pages of no's. How did it go live? I wonder how many would come back. Whole entire guilds that left.
Twas just one of the many many decision instituted by ZoS based on the belief that they know what is best for PvP better than the people who actually PvP.Edited by Joy_Division on October 23, 2015 2:21PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.
Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd
You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them
Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.
NO NO NO a million times NO!!!
Ballgrps themselves (and the underlying game mechanics supporting them) have shaped the large scale pvp in eso so that they have become the definition of large scale combat because no other playstyle when playing objectives is vaible. This is whats wrong about it!
They are a self self institutionalized monarchy when it comes to eso objective pvp.Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »You can easily kill a 24m ball with 12 players also you can avoid their dmg easily. That playstyle is only strong because people don't know how to play against it.
My view is that ALL playstyles should be appreciated in the game. It's what keeps the pvp fun and varied.. it would be boring if everyone played exactly the same style. For example if everyone sat on a hill waiting for people to ride by no one would fight.
Ok some people might take it personally what i´m going to write:
I think banana squad when running with 12 people is just a smaller ballgrp with really good players in it. There i said it. Which basically proves the point - it takes a ballgrp to beat a ballgrp.
I think every playstyle should be vaible too. What i do think on top of that is: Every playstyle should be able to contribute when playing around cyrodiil objectives. This is currently not the case. For objectives it´s ball or bust (when fighting a ballgrp) and thats bad game design.
Okay. What is the definition of ball group? It is being used to describe so many things by different people in this thread. As far as I can tell Ball Group is what some people call any group that they can't wipe. Kind of like when I am in a 5 man and get called a zerg because 15 people can't kill us.
Strange that isn't it.
Sometimes pvpers make me think of the analogy .. Hunter goes out shooting with a automatic shotgun claiming they are going to go PVP the ducks. Then complain because it's windy cause it's ruined their (competitive highly skilled) PvDuck evening.
Btw Hi J - unrelatedEdited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on October 23, 2015 3:14PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)0 -
Etaniel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.
Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd
You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them
Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.
NO NO NO a million times NO!!!
Ballgrps themselves (and the underlying game mechanics supporting them) have shaped the large scale pvp in eso so that they have become the definition of large scale combat because no other playstyle when playing objectives is vaible. This is whats wrong about it!
They are a self self institutionalized monarchy when it comes to eso objective pvp.Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »You can easily kill a 24m ball with 12 players also you can avoid their dmg easily. That playstyle is only strong because people don't know how to play against it.
My view is that ALL playstyles should be appreciated in the game. It's what keeps the pvp fun and varied.. it would be boring if everyone played exactly the same style. For example if everyone sat on a hill waiting for people to ride by no one would fight.
Ok some people might take it personally what i´m going to write:
I think banana squad when running with 12 people is just a smaller ballgrp with really good players in it. There i said it. Which basically proves the point - it takes a ballgrp to beat a ballgrp.
I think every playstyle should be vaible too. What i do think on top of that is: Every playstyle should be able to contribute when playing around cyrodiil objectives. This is currently not the case. For objectives it´s ball or bust (when fighting a ballgrp) and thats bad game design.
Okay. What is the definition of ball group? It is being used to describe so many things by different people in this thread. As far as I can tell Ball Group is what some people call any group that they can't wipe. Kind of like when I am in a 5 man and get called a zerg because 15 people can't kill us.
Strange that isn't it.
Sometimes pvpers make me think of the analogy .. Hunter goes out shooting with a automatic shotgun claiming they are going to go PVP the ducks. Then complain because it's windy cause it's ruined their (competitive highly skilled) PvDuck evening.
Btw Hi J - unrelated
Don't really understand what that analogy has to do with anything?1 -
BossTuggles✭✭✭I think I will try to sum up some of the issues everyone seems to have with the current BALL GROUP meta.
1) You can only kill a ball group with ANOTHER BALL GROUP or just stupidly out numbering them.
2) These ball groups crutch on the AoE cap mitigation that they get while playing this way. ( I can not see how people can deny this).
3) People in these balls groups are taking these discussions as personal attacks rather than being told by everyone in this thread that they are criticizing the PLAYSTYLE. (one exception the guy who spoke of banana squad but even then it wasn't really insulting he just said his opinion of categorizing the PLAYSTYLE they use).
This game has such great potential and it is just getting wrecked by ZOS's changes patch after patch. Look at that poll thread someone re posted. I mean look at just the sheer numbers. Are there even 3k people in this game across NA and EU servers? This one issue (AoE caps) has changed the trajectory of this game in such a drastic faction that it is ridiculous. I mean even in that poll thread like 10's of people spoke about how if they remove AoE caps it would just be ball groups vrs ball groups and well LOOK WHAT WE HAVE. You get to a keep and you see a ball group its like why even try?
It is getting to the point where why even PvP in this game. To me that is all this game has to offer. and do not get me started on PvE. Let me run WGT for the 100th time to get my buddy a helm (sorry FENGRUSH).Like a Boss!1 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BossTuggles wrote: »I think I will try to sum up some of the issues everyone seems to have with the current BALL GROUP meta.
1) You can only kill a ball group with ANOTHER BALL GROUP or just stupidly out numbering them.
2) These ball groups crutch on the AoE cap mitigation that they get while playing this way. ( I can not see how people can deny this).
3) People in these balls groups are taking these discussions as personal attacks rather than being told by everyone in this thread that they are criticizing the PLAYSTYLE. (one exception the guy who spoke of banana squad but even then it wasn't really insulting he just said his opinion of categorizing the PLAYSTYLE they use).
This game has such great potential and it is just getting wrecked by ZOS's changes patch after patch. Look at that poll thread someone re posted. I mean look at just the sheer numbers. Are there even 3k people in this game across NA and EU servers? This one issue (AoE caps) has changed the trajectory of this game in such a drastic faction that it is ridiculous. I mean even in that poll thread like 10's of people spoke about how if they remove AoE caps it would just be ball groups vrs ball groups and well LOOK WHAT WE HAVE. You get to a keep and you see a ball group its like why even try?
It is getting to the point where why even PvP in this game. To me that is all this game has to offer. and do not get me started on PvE. Let me run WGT for the 100th time to get my buddy a helm (sorry FENGRUSH).
Would you believe theyre making WGT easier and trippling drop rates now that people who have tried to get ahead of things and farm this have wasted hours upon hours to come up with nothing? Top notch.1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭That is the general way of MMO progression. Pioneer at great effort, and in time no one will remember it being so hard.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
Etaniel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BossTuggles wrote: »I think I will try to sum up some of the issues everyone seems to have with the current BALL GROUP meta.
1) You can only kill a ball group with ANOTHER BALL GROUP or just stupidly out numbering them.
2) These ball groups crutch on the AoE cap mitigation that they get while playing this way. ( I can not see how people can deny this).
3) People in these balls groups are taking these discussions as personal attacks rather than being told by everyone in this thread that they are criticizing the PLAYSTYLE. (one exception the guy who spoke of banana squad but even then it wasn't really insulting he just said his opinion of categorizing the PLAYSTYLE they use).
This game has such great potential and it is just getting wrecked by ZOS's changes patch after patch. Look at that poll thread someone re posted. I mean look at just the sheer numbers. Are there even 3k people in this game across NA and EU servers? This one issue (AoE caps) has changed the trajectory of this game in such a drastic faction that it is ridiculous. I mean even in that poll thread like 10's of people spoke about how if they remove AoE caps it would just be ball groups vrs ball groups and well LOOK WHAT WE HAVE. You get to a keep and you see a ball group its like why even try?
It is getting to the point where why even PvP in this game. To me that is all this game has to offer. and do not get me started on PvE. Let me run WGT for the 100th time to get my buddy a helm (sorry FENGRUSH).
I'm pretty sure the number of PvPers on PC servers is very very low. About 7-8 months ago I had already posted something similar that showed that considering the number of campaigns we had, and the amount of people on the leaderboard (easily checked by making an alt and joining a campaign) the total % of PvPers compared to PvErs was around 1% if not less.
I's probably even worse today. I'd love to hear numbers on how many people actively take part in Cyrodil. Of course the numbers would be skewed since we have tons of people joining Cyro just to get to IC.
But I'd be willing to bet that we don't reach 5k players for both megaservers. Now why on earth would ZOS try to make things better for less than 1% of their player base.0 -
BossTuggles✭✭✭but but but FENGRUSH, everyone deserves the chance to be good. Why should someone who puts in more effort than me be rewarded something that is half decent. I want this too. This is unfair. NERFSTAMSORCAOEULTGENDKDFKDSNFJSDFSDFSDGDGFSDG!Like a Boss!0
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Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »By my definition:Ball group i]b-o-ll g-r-û-p[/i
Group of players stacking on top of the leader with the objective to benefit from AoE caps and the direct damage reduction that comes from it.
A ball group requires a minimum of 7 players.
I don't think most ball up for damage reduction, it's for the healing and maneuverability, as well as focused damage. I think 99% of the "ball" groups are all for the removal of AOE caps. It benefits them more with no cap when going up against larger numbers.
speaking about fokus dmg when using AoS... do not want to harm you in anyway but what!?!spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"2 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BossTuggles wrote: »I think I will try to sum up some of the issues everyone seems to have with the current BALL GROUP meta.
1) You can only kill a ball group with ANOTHER BALL GROUP or just stupidly out numbering them.
2) These ball groups crutch on the AoE cap mitigation that they get while playing this way. ( I can not see how people can deny this).
3) People in these balls groups are taking these discussions as personal attacks rather than being told by everyone in this thread that they are criticizing the PLAYSTYLE. (one exception the guy who spoke of banana squad but even then it wasn't really insulting he just said his opinion of categorizing the PLAYSTYLE they use).
This game has such great potential and it is just getting wrecked by ZOS's changes patch after patch. Look at that poll thread someone re posted. I mean look at just the sheer numbers. Are there even 3k people in this game across NA and EU servers? This one issue (AoE caps) has changed the trajectory of this game in such a drastic faction that it is ridiculous. I mean even in that poll thread like 10's of people spoke about how if they remove AoE caps it would just be ball groups vrs ball groups and well LOOK WHAT WE HAVE. You get to a keep and you see a ball group its like why even try?
It is getting to the point where why even PvP in this game. To me that is all this game has to offer. and do not get me started on PvE. Let me run WGT for the 100th time to get my buddy a helm (sorry FENGRUSH).
1) you can kill a group without outnumbering them. Whether or not that means you are in turn the same playstyle depends on whether coordination is now considered being a ball.
2) they don't crutch on aoe mitigation these groups would still play like this without it. And did before it.
3) I still don't understand the problem with playing the game however you want to play it. Since when has being effective been bad in eyes other than those competing?
I realise that some groups that people see may be different to others which is why it's hard to discuss without making it personal because it will always be in someone's experience of another group.
And @Etaniel it doesn't I just found it funny so wanted to post it.
@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)0 -
BossTuggles✭✭✭@Etaniel, With that mindset why would anyone do anything for their customer. Hell you aren't in the majority you can get on out. The thing is Etaniel the MAJOR change in this game was created to help the minority. Look at that thread with the poll in it. They certainly don't listen to the majority on issues so I might as well try to be heard seeing as I am now the minority!Edited by BossTuggles on October 23, 2015 3:45PMLike a Boss!0
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Etaniel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Well don't tell me that, I know x) Tell that to ZOS !BossTuggles wrote: »@Etaniel, With that mindset why would anyone do anything for their customer. Hell you aren't in the majority you can get on out. The thing is Etaniel the MAJOR change in this game was created to help the minority. Look at that thread with the poll in it. They certainly don't listen to the majority on issues so I might as well try to be heard seeing as I am now the minority!0 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »By my definition:Ball group i]b-o-ll g-r-û-p[/i
Group of players stacking on top of the leader with the objective to benefit from AoE caps and the direct damage reduction that comes from it.
A ball group requires a minimum of 7 players.
I don't think most ball up for damage reduction, it's for the healing and maneuverability, as well as focused damage. I think 99% of the "ball" groups are all for the removal of AOE caps. It benefits them more with no cap when going up against larger numbers.
speaking about fokus dmg when using AoS... do not want to harm you in anyway but what!?!
6 player focus is still focus aoes have a mitigation cap so it's effectively like trying to hit the same 6 players with your aoes.
@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)0 -
Etaniel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »3) I still don't understand the problem with playing the game however you want to play it. Since when has being effective been bad in eyes other than those competing?
hehehehe, I expected you to say that again.
The problem with playing in a ball, is that's the cause of lag.
It doesn't necessarily always lag when large ball groups play, but whenever they fall upon same sized groups, or bigger groups (isn't that what you are striving for? I doubt you group up 24 guys to defeat smaller groups) then the server starts to hurt, and when someone's playstyle hurts the server, they should seriously question themselves. Is our fun more important than the well being of the whole campaign? And if you say, well ZOS is to blame, not us ! then I will repeat my previous analogy :
"Say someone sells you a gun and advertises that it shoots straight.
Say that, it appears this particular gun is broken, and that every time you shoot it, it backfires and it blows your face apart.
Now, is the person who sold you the gun to blame, because he did false advertising and sold you a broken gun? Yes. Should he strive to fix it? yes
Are you utterly re tar ded for using said gun even though you know it's broken? WOW YES"
If the server peformance didn't drop everytime I see a lagtrain, I wouldn't complain about them as much as I do.4 -
BossTuggles✭✭✭^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ soooo many times ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Like a Boss!0
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Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »3) I still don't understand the problem with playing the game however you want to play it. Since when has being effective been bad in eyes other than those competing?
hehehehe, I expected you to say that again.
The problem with playing in a ball, is that's the cause of lag.
It doesn't necessarily always lag when large ball groups play, but whenever they fall upon same sized groups, or bigger groups (isn't that what you are striving for? I doubt you group up 24 guys to defeat smaller groups) then the server starts to hurt, and when someone's playstyle hurts the server, they should seriously question themselves. Is our fun more important than the well being of the whole campaign? And if you say, well ZOS is to blame, not us ! then I will repeat my previous analogy :
"Say someone sells you a gun and advertises that it shoots straight.
Say that, it appears this particular gun is broken, and that every time you shoot it, it backfires and it blows your face apart.
Now, is the person who sold you the gun to blame, because he did false advertising and sold you a broken gun? Yes. Should he strive to fix it? yes
Are you utterly re tar ded for using said gun even though you know it's broken? WOW YES"
If the server peformance didn't drop everytime I see a lagtrain, I wouldn't complain about them as much as I do.
Whether I play in a 24m group a 12m or a 2m there is lag on the server this tells me that it makes no difference so play what you enjoy. And if you can make a group where 23 others also enjoy themselves that's better than not doing it. So the lag argument. Again holds no weight in the argument to me.
I'll say again other than lag which is debatable what's your argument?
Also what most players don't understand is there is less lag for you when you are playing in a 24m group against 24+ than when you are 12 vs 24+
I checked my ping vs that of players not in the group near the group I was running in during a large fight I was on 2-300 they were on 600+Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on October 23, 2015 4:08PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)0 -
Etaniel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »3) I still don't understand the problem with playing the game however you want to play it. Since when has being effective been bad in eyes other than those competing?
hehehehe, I expected you to say that again.
The problem with playing in a ball, is that's the cause of lag.
It doesn't necessarily always lag when large ball groups play, but whenever they fall upon same sized groups, or bigger groups (isn't that what you are striving for? I doubt you group up 24 guys to defeat smaller groups) then the server starts to hurt, and when someone's playstyle hurts the server, they should seriously question themselves. Is our fun more important than the well being of the whole campaign? And if you say, well ZOS is to blame, not us ! then I will repeat my previous analogy :
"Say someone sells you a gun and advertises that it shoots straight.
Say that, it appears this particular gun is broken, and that every time you shoot it, it backfires and it blows your face apart.
Now, is the person who sold you the gun to blame, because he did false advertising and sold you a broken gun? Yes. Should he strive to fix it? yes
Are you utterly re tar ded for using said gun even though you know it's broken? WOW YES"
If the server peformance didn't drop everytime I see a lagtrain, I wouldn't complain about them as much as I do.
Whether I play in a 24m group a 12m or a 2m there is lag on the server this tells me that it makes no difference so play what you enjoy. And if you can make a group where 23 others also enjoy themselves that's better than not doing it. So the lag argument. Again holds no weight in the argument to me.
I'll say again other than lag which is debatable what's your argument?
When I play on servers when no one is in a ball group, and that my ping stays under 100 ms, and no one ever complains about lag, it tells me I'm doing something right. When such a raid group joins the campaign, and 10 min later people complain about their ping, I silently curse them and log off.
Now, you can make your other 23 people have fun, and ruin the night for 200 others, nice.
Servers don't lag unless there are huge masses of people stacking together. (rare exceptions when maintenance hasn't happened for a while, and it lags anyways, I'll give you that, but it's rare).
It's my only argument really, I couldn't care less that you played in a ball group (given I have a few tools to have a chance of dealing with you) if it didn't lag.1 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭Solution. Make it so players are solid and cant pass thru each other. But cant jump on top of another player to scale walls0 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »3) I still don't understand the problem with playing the game however you want to play it. Since when has being effective been bad in eyes other than those competing?
hehehehe, I expected you to say that again.
The problem with playing in a ball, is that's the cause of lag.
It doesn't necessarily always lag when large ball groups play, but whenever they fall upon same sized groups, or bigger groups (isn't that what you are striving for? I doubt you group up 24 guys to defeat smaller groups) then the server starts to hurt, and when someone's playstyle hurts the server, they should seriously question themselves. Is our fun more important than the well being of the whole campaign? And if you say, well ZOS is to blame, not us ! then I will repeat my previous analogy :
"Say someone sells you a gun and advertises that it shoots straight.
Say that, it appears this particular gun is broken, and that every time you shoot it, it backfires and it blows your face apart.
Now, is the person who sold you the gun to blame, because he did false advertising and sold you a broken gun? Yes. Should he strive to fix it? yes
Are you utterly re tar ded for using said gun even though you know it's broken? WOW YES"
If the server peformance didn't drop everytime I see a lagtrain, I wouldn't complain about them as much as I do.
Whether I play in a 24m group a 12m or a 2m there is lag on the server this tells me that it makes no difference so play what you enjoy. And if you can make a group where 23 others also enjoy themselves that's better than not doing it. So the lag argument. Again holds no weight in the argument to me.
I'll say again other than lag which is debatable what's your argument?
When I play on servers when no one is in a ball group, and that my ping stays under 100 ms, and no one ever complains about lag, it tells me I'm doing something right. When such a raid group joins the campaign, and 10 min later people complain about their ping, I silently curse them and log off.
Now, you can make your other 23 people have fun, and ruin the night for 200 others, nice.
Servers don't lag unless there are huge masses of people stacking together. (rare exceptions when maintenance hasn't happened for a while, and it lags anyways, I'll give you that, but it's rare).
It's my only argument really, I couldn't care less that you played in a ball group (given I have a few tools to have a chance of dealing with you) if it didn't lag.
Because you are playing on low population servers (which don't have 200 players across all 3 factions) and when a group joins and holds a location for a long time farming more and more pugs turn up to stop them. Then the lag happens and it's their fault for being too good and not dieing.
That's not a symptom of a 24m raid. I've been on these other servers where you have 1 faction running around in groups of 40 + and then blaming 12 people for lag because they don't die when they are attacked by that many.
P.s I lied about the duck thing being nothing. It does have relevance.Edited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on October 23, 2015 4:46PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »3) I still don't understand the problem with playing the game however you want to play it. Since when has being effective been bad in eyes other than those competing?
hehehehe, I expected you to say that again.
The problem with playing in a ball, is that's the cause of lag.
It doesn't necessarily always lag when large ball groups play, but whenever they fall upon same sized groups, or bigger groups (isn't that what you are striving for? I doubt you group up 24 guys to defeat smaller groups) then the server starts to hurt, and when someone's playstyle hurts the server, they should seriously question themselves. Is our fun more important than the well being of the whole campaign? And if you say, well ZOS is to blame, not us ! then I will repeat my previous analogy :
"Say someone sells you a gun and advertises that it shoots straight.
Say that, it appears this particular gun is broken, and that every time you shoot it, it backfires and it blows your face apart.
Now, is the person who sold you the gun to blame, because he did false advertising and sold you a broken gun? Yes. Should he strive to fix it? yes
Are you utterly re tar ded for using said gun even though you know it's broken? WOW YES"
If the server peformance didn't drop everytime I see a lagtrain, I wouldn't complain about them as much as I do.
Whether I play in a 24m group a 12m or a 2m there is lag on the server this tells me that it makes no difference so play what you enjoy. And if you can make a group where 23 others also enjoy themselves that's better than not doing it. So the lag argument. Again holds no weight in the argument to me.
I'll say again other than lag which is debatable what's your argument?
Also what most players don't understand is there is less lag for you when you are playing in a 24m group against 24+ than when you are 12 vs 24+
I checked my ping vs that of players not in the group near the group I was running in during a large fight I was on 2-300 they were on 600+
This argument of playing how you want is literally irrelevant to the points of removing AOE caps. Removing AOE caps has more to do with server performance and gameplay balance. Its not balanced that players are mitigating damage for free. The reality is they should not mitigate any damage, the same way a 4 man group would not mitigate any AOE dealt to them.
It has nothing with fun or playing how you want. It has to do with artificial mitigation that isnt helping the game from a balance or performance perspective. Its pretty straight forward that it needs to go.6 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »3) I still don't understand the problem with playing the game however you want to play it. Since when has being effective been bad in eyes other than those competing?
hehehehe, I expected you to say that again.
The problem with playing in a ball, is that's the cause of lag.
It doesn't necessarily always lag when large ball groups play, but whenever they fall upon same sized groups, or bigger groups (isn't that what you are striving for? I doubt you group up 24 guys to defeat smaller groups) then the server starts to hurt, and when someone's playstyle hurts the server, they should seriously question themselves. Is our fun more important than the well being of the whole campaign? And if you say, well ZOS is to blame, not us ! then I will repeat my previous analogy :
"Say someone sells you a gun and advertises that it shoots straight.
Say that, it appears this particular gun is broken, and that every time you shoot it, it backfires and it blows your face apart.
Now, is the person who sold you the gun to blame, because he did false advertising and sold you a broken gun? Yes. Should he strive to fix it? yes
Are you utterly re tar ded for using said gun even though you know it's broken? WOW YES"
If the server peformance didn't drop everytime I see a lagtrain, I wouldn't complain about them as much as I do.
Whether I play in a 24m group a 12m or a 2m there is lag on the server this tells me that it makes no difference so play what you enjoy. And if you can make a group where 23 others also enjoy themselves that's better than not doing it. So the lag argument. Again holds no weight in the argument to me.
I'll say again other than lag which is debatable what's your argument?
Also what most players don't understand is there is less lag for you when you are playing in a 24m group against 24+ than when you are 12 vs 24+
I checked my ping vs that of players not in the group near the group I was running in during a large fight I was on 2-300 they were on 600+
This argument of playing how you want is literally irrelevant to the points of removing AOE caps. Removing AOE caps has more to do with server performance and gameplay balance. Its not balanced that players are mitigating damage for free. The reality is they should not mitigate any damage, the same way a 4 man group would not mitigate any AOE dealt to them.
It has nothing with fun or playing how you want. It has to do with artificial mitigation that isnt helping the game from a balance or performance perspective. Its pretty straight forward that it needs to go.
Yes, but ZOS is not stupid. They do read the forums, they do know about all the talk about removing AOE caps for a long time now. They know something we do not. I think if the reality was as simple as flipping a switch, "ok guys, the players don't like AOE caps flip the switch" they would do it. The story seems to be much deeper.0 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »3) I still don't understand the problem with playing the game however you want to play it. Since when has being effective been bad in eyes other than those competing?
hehehehe, I expected you to say that again.
The problem with playing in a ball, is that's the cause of lag.
It doesn't necessarily always lag when large ball groups play, but whenever they fall upon same sized groups, or bigger groups (isn't that what you are striving for? I doubt you group up 24 guys to defeat smaller groups) then the server starts to hurt, and when someone's playstyle hurts the server, they should seriously question themselves. Is our fun more important than the well being of the whole campaign? And if you say, well ZOS is to blame, not us ! then I will repeat my previous analogy :
"Say someone sells you a gun and advertises that it shoots straight.
Say that, it appears this particular gun is broken, and that every time you shoot it, it backfires and it blows your face apart.
Now, is the person who sold you the gun to blame, because he did false advertising and sold you a broken gun? Yes. Should he strive to fix it? yes
Are you utterly re tar ded for using said gun even though you know it's broken? WOW YES"
If the server peformance didn't drop everytime I see a lagtrain, I wouldn't complain about them as much as I do.
Whether I play in a 24m group a 12m or a 2m there is lag on the server this tells me that it makes no difference so play what you enjoy. And if you can make a group where 23 others also enjoy themselves that's better than not doing it. So the lag argument. Again holds no weight in the argument to me.
I'll say again other than lag which is debatable what's your argument?
Also what most players don't understand is there is less lag for you when you are playing in a 24m group against 24+ than when you are 12 vs 24+
I checked my ping vs that of players not in the group near the group I was running in during a large fight I was on 2-300 they were on 600+
This argument of playing how you want is literally irrelevant to the points of removing AOE caps. Removing AOE caps has more to do with server performance and gameplay balance. Its not balanced that players are mitigating damage for free. The reality is they should not mitigate any damage, the same way a 4 man group would not mitigate any AOE dealt to them.
It has nothing with fun or playing how you want. It has to do with artificial mitigation that isnt helping the game from a balance or performance perspective. Its pretty straight forward that it needs to go.
Not everyone is replying to the same post. I've posted my views on the AoE cap already. But I'll summarise seeing as you brought it up. Damage should increase the more players you hit with aoe. Hit 6 you should do 100% dmg (but that damage shouldn't be super high) hit 12 you should do 200% on all targets .. and so on.
Simple version if you can make your aoe hit more players you should be rewarded with higher dmg and those players should be discouraged from stacking so closely. Basically the reverse of what was implemented but for all targetsEdited by Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO on October 23, 2015 4:30PM@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Banana Squad (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Roleplay Circle)4
