PvP Podcast (Episode 7 Uploaded)

Ishammael · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

Want all of these.

Manoekin · October 2015

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

Kind of goes to show that you lose/lack perspective when you dont partake in that realm of pvp - each group does in fact run differently, and no, you would not perform as well as our best players on day one until you adjusted and picked up guildies' strengths and weaknesses and individual playstyles. Even though I know the raid dynamic well, I would not make arrogant statements saying I could run with haxus/gos/rage tonight and perform in a raid setting as well as their best players right off the bat, even if I was on equal or better individual skill level to said players.

You could be the best solo player in the game but that does not mean you can function well in a group environment. We'll take our group into pushes that a solo/small man has zero experience engaging and surviving and in some cases yes, the pug we picked up two months ago and trained can outperform you in those situations because they're familiar with us, our calls, our raid leads, etc.

Could you join our group today and perform well? Most likely, if youre capable of following commands and moving as a group and not a solo player. Are you going to perform as well as our best, given that you lack the knowledge one picks up when you run with the same people every day for months? Very doubtful. The same would be true of any organized group. It's not to say you can't pick it up, but to automatically assume just because you solo/small man that you can be on the same level as the best of a raid group on day one when you lack the experience of that playstyle and particular group just goes to show how people in these threads need to ... Well, I have nothing nice to say, so I'll finish here.

I think he'd do well. He may not anticipate calls or anything like that, but I'd trust him to be a benefit to the group because he's a good player.

Also, would watch that stream.

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

I don't have the time or will to adress each of the individually but I will say a few things.

Some of these I agree with and would love to see happen and I think they could happen. Some I still want to see but realistically will never happen. Some I'm indifferent about and some I disagree with. Overall though I think the issue here is you are asking for too much. Let's say you get all these changes though. Some will have the intended effects you were looking for but some may not and some may even cause more issues. So for example, retreating maneuvers is designed for retreating, I mean it's in the name, so if you changed it to only removing a snare instead of removing snares and giving immunity then the skill becomes completely useless and it might as well not exist because all it would take is another set of caltrops and the group is stuck in a snare again and can't retreat. Obviously this skill is being used offensively and not defensively so I can see the argument but realistically it either has to stay the way it is or receive very minimal changes it will no longer serve its initial purpose. I pretty sure the only people that want the roll dodge nerf reverted are stam users and the only people that want bolt escape nerf reverted are solo player Sorcs. I do agree with the health multiplier and the idea of a PC cap in cyrodiil to somewhat normalize people's stats so it's more skill based than it is a test of how many hours have you been grinding.

If you want to see any real change in cyrodiil or combat you are gonna have to focus one a couple key changes you want asking for a Christmas list just isn't realistic.

ToRelax · October 2015

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

I don't have the time or will to adress each of the individually but I will say a few things.

Some of these I agree with and would love to see happen and I think they could happen. Some I still want to see but realistically will never happen. Some I'm indifferent about and some I disagree with. Overall though I think the issue here is you are asking for too much. Let's say you get all these changes though. Some will have the intended effects you were looking for but some may not and some may even cause more issues. So for example, retreating maneuvers is designed for retreating, I mean it's in the name, so if you changed it to only removing a snare instead of removing snares and giving immunity then the skill becomes completely useless and it might as well not exist because all it would take is another set of caltrops and the group is stuck in a snare again and can't retreat. Obviously this skill is being used offensively and not defensively so I can see the argument but realistically it either has to stay the way it is or receive very minimal changes it will no longer serve its initial purpose. I pretty sure the only people that want the roll dodge nerf reverted are stam users and the only people that want bolt escape nerf reverted are solo player Sorcs. I do agree with the health multiplier and the idea of a PC cap in cyrodiil to somewhat normalize people's stats so it's more skill based than it is a test of how many hours have you been grinding.

I agree it's not realistical for some changes to happen. It's even very unlikely for any of them to happen or anything against zergs at all at this point.
One thing though: On my magicka Sorc, I feel the roll dodging nerf a lot. I always had a relatively balanced setup, with that I could also easily dodge 3-4 times in a row without getting into danger of running out of stamina. This nerf hurts everyone fighting outnumbered.

Zheg · October 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

Kind of goes to show that you lose/lack perspective when you dont partake in that realm of pvp - each group does in fact run differently, and no, you would not perform as well as our best players on day one until you adjusted and picked up guildies' strengths and weaknesses and individual playstyles. Even though I know the raid dynamic well, I would not make arrogant statements saying I could run with haxus/gos/rage tonight and perform in a raid setting as well as their best players right off the bat, even if I was on equal or better individual skill level to said players.

You could be the best solo player in the game but that does not mean you can function well in a group environment. We'll take our group into pushes that a solo/small man has zero experience engaging and surviving and in some cases yes, the pug we picked up two months ago and trained can outperform you in those situations because they're familiar with us, our calls, our raid leads, etc.

Could you join our group today and perform well? Most likely, if youre capable of following commands and moving as a group and not a solo player. Are you going to perform as well as our best, given that you lack the knowledge one picks up when you run with the same people every day for months? Very doubtful. The same would be true of any organized group. It's not to say you can't pick it up, but to automatically assume just because you solo/small man that you can be on the same level as the best of a raid group on day one when you lack the experience of that playstyle and particular group just goes to show how people in these threads need to ... Well, I have nothing nice to say, so I'll finish here.

I think he'd do well. He may not anticipate calls or anything like that, but I'd trust him to be a benefit to the group because he's a good player.

Also, would watch that stream.

Beginning of the last paragraph I say he'd most likely do well, but the wording of his post implies he'd be on an equal footing to a raid groups best players on day one, and that just sounds arrogant to me (besides most likely not true).

A big part of succeeding in a raid group is having players that actually like playing with you, and posts like that certainly wouldn't endear you to anyone. Some really good solo players just don't end up being a good fit sometimes, and one reason is that they need to actually listen and do things they may not want to do for the sake of the group. Does not mean one can't be adept at both, but being good at one does not automatically make you good at the other.

Valindor Magnus · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

I don't have the time or will to adress each of the individually but I will say a few things.

Some of these I agree with and would love to see happen and I think they could happen. Some I still want to see but realistically will never happen. Some I'm indifferent about and some I disagree with. Overall though I think the issue here is you are asking for too much. Let's say you get all these changes though. Some will have the intended effects you were looking for but some may not and some may even cause more issues. So for example, retreating maneuvers is designed for retreating, I mean it's in the name, so if you changed it to only removing a snare instead of removing snares and giving immunity then the skill becomes completely useless and it might as well not exist because all it would take is another set of caltrops and the group is stuck in a snare again and can't retreat. Obviously this skill is being used offensively and not defensively so I can see the argument but realistically it either has to stay the way it is or receive very minimal changes it will no longer serve its initial purpose. I pretty sure the only people that want the roll dodge nerf reverted are stam users and the only people that want bolt escape nerf reverted are solo player Sorcs. I do agree with the health multiplier and the idea of a PC cap in cyrodiil to somewhat normalize people's stats so it's more skill based than it is a test of how many hours have you been grinding.

I agree it's not realistical for some changes to happen. It's even very unlikely for any of them to happen or anything against zergs at all at this point.
One thing though: On my magicka Sorc, I feel the roll dodging nerf a lot. I always had a relatively balanced setup, with that I could also easily dodge 3-4 times in a row without getting into danger of running out of stamina. This nerf hurts everyone fighting outnumbered.

The game devs themselves were caught off guard when they heard players were fighting 1v3 or more and winning because the game isn't designed to be able to win outnumbered fights. I'm sorry the dodge roll nerf has effected your 1vx but roll dodge isn't there to let you 1vx. As someone who has played sorc dk and nightblade both stam and Magicka I completely understands our point of view but I have also been able to survive 1v3 ish fairly well in this patch even after these nerfs. Of course it was against less experienced players but you will never 1vx skilled players if everything is balanced properly. And the roll dodge change was a step to balance things.

RoamingRiverElk · October 2015

Let it be known that I totally agree with @ToRelax 's list.

Then...

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

I don't have the time or will to adress each of the individually but I will say a few things.

Some of these I agree with and would love to see happen and I think they could happen. Some I still want to see but realistically will never happen. Some I'm indifferent about and some I disagree with. Overall though I think the issue here is you are asking for too much. Let's say you get all these changes though. Some will have the intended effects you were looking for but some may not and some may even cause more issues. So for example, retreating maneuvers is designed for retreating, I mean it's in the name, so if you changed it to only removing a snare instead of removing snares and giving immunity then the skill becomes completely useless and it might as well not exist because all it would take is another set of caltrops and the group is stuck in a snare again and can't retreat. Obviously this skill is being used offensively and not defensively so I can see the argument but realistically it either has to stay the way it is or receive very minimal changes it will no longer serve its initial purpose. I pretty sure the only people that want the roll dodge nerf reverted are stam users and the only people that want bolt escape nerf reverted are solo player Sorcs. I do agree with the health multiplier and the idea of a PC cap in cyrodiil to somewhat normalize people's stats so it's more skill based than it is a test of how many hours have you been grinding.

If you want to see any real change in cyrodiil or combat you are gonna have to focus one a couple key changes you want asking for a Christmas list just isn't realistic.

Retreating maneuvers are used offensively a lot. Maybe make another morph where it applies to three players and gives them the immunity, instead of for a group of 20.

I mostly play magicka builds on my characters, but have tried stamina dk and stamina nb. I very much do feel the roll dodge nerf on all my magicka builds. Also, it's not just solo sorcs who would like that nerf reverted - it benefits small groups, or really, anyone who plays with sorcs.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

Minno · October 2015

Satiar wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

That´s the problem. Nobody apart from the people doing it WANTS to do that. Yet because of questionable gamemechanics it´s the only way to play around objectives.

On the flip side argument, you will never be a good pvp player if you don't try to challenge yourself 1vx style.

It's one thing to follow a raid and spam abilities, its entirely another to face off on uneven odds and knowing how to counter each skill.

Pretty much my entire core small manned and 1vXed for their first year. We have lots of videos to prove it

This is what I'm doing now for about 5 months. Except as a Templar with destro staff in light armor lol

Satiar · October 2015

Ya I get you Minno. Stam NB without bow in 1.2 was rouggggh.

ToRelax · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

I'm sure there would be less complaining about zergballs if they'd run away whenever they would face more than 8 enemies at once.

I know camps had their good sides, we defended our campaign with a small group by constantly bloodporting, but it also made for boring stretched out fights, sieges you couldn't end as a defender because attackers just constantly respawned.
The camps at duels had their problems as well, most duelers didn't bother wether their camps would influence the campaign, and sometimes they had the same effect as troll camps... wich were another bad thing about camps. Fights were decided by wich faction didn't replace their camps, be that because the enemy actually stopped them, because some players just wouldn't place camps or forget them, or because of a troll camp nearby.

I'm not even against bringing back camps at all - but if it would be like they were before, even without the bugs, no thanks.

Poxheart · October 2015

Huckdabuck wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

@FENGRUSH If you'd like to come play with us...all you have to do is ask! I'm sure @Satiar or Bulbasir wouldn't mind having you in raid with us to see Cyrodiil from another perspective.

I would also watch that stream.

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

Totally disagree. I played 8-10h/day during the time of forward camps and i hated it. Any fight you created became a zerg fight as soon as you were having mild success (taking a ressource, creating swords that lasted, etc...). Endlessly streched out laggy siege fights with endless respawns - painful.

timidobserver · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

Some of your points I like, am neutral, or indifferent about. "Remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not" is the only one I am completely against. As a Sorc this change wouldn't hurt you because you can just blip around all over the map regardless of whether you are snared or rooted. However, Rapids is critical for other classes with less mobility like DK and Templar.

Derra · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

So much bullcrap. Really do you believe what you´re writing?

I´ve been leading a grp of 7 to 10 people since i picked up pvping in this game (after i got my precious wormcult set - may until november 2014 and our smallgrp since 1.6 hit). I can count the situation where forward camps were a greater benefit to a smallgrp than they were for zergs on one hand. Ofcourse they were convinient for dueling or when we were just picking on people on resource routes...
However in every objective focused scenario forward camps were biting the small grp in the a**. You could wipe 30ppl with 10 and they´d be all back before you even repaired a breach. No thanks i definetly don´t ever want that mechanic back.

Another crappy thing this encouraged was the oh so funny batswarm bomb die repeat maneuver. People would just kill themselves endlessly while trying to take as many AP as they could - respawning wasn´t an issue.

And to your little sorc comment: The grp of sorc´s can´t keep anyone from participating in keep battles as they rely on kiting and space to be effective - you don´t have that in a keep.
The only thing that can fight a ballgrp in a keep is - a ballgrp. Your playstyle ruins the fun for everyone not participating in that particular playstyle. Not the case for anyting else. Go figure.

timidobserver wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

Some of your points I like, am neutral, or indifferent about. "Remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not" is the only one I am completely against. As a Sorc this change wouldn't hurt you because you can just blip around all over the map regardless of whether you are snared or rooted. However, Rapids is critical for other classes with less mobility like DK and Templar.

Don´t agree with the changes listed. Too much has actually happened...
Maneuver should just break on heals aswell as on dmg. That would solve a lot of problems.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

So much bullcrap. Really do you believe what you´re writing?

I´ve been leading a grp of 7 to 10 people since i picked up pvping in this game (after i got my precious wormcult set - may until november 2014 and our smallgrp since 1.6 hit). I can count the situation where forward camps were a greater benefit to a smallgrp than they were for zergs on one hand. Ofcourse they were convinient for dueling or when we were just picking on people on resource routes...
However in every objective focused scenario forward camps were biting the small grp in the a**. You could wipe 30ppl with 10 and they´d be all back before you even repaired a breach. No thanks i definetly don´t ever want that mechanic back.

Another crappy thing this encouraged was the oh so funny batswarm bomb die repeat maneuver. People would just kill themselves endlessly while trying to take as many AP as they could - respawning wasn´t an issue.

And to your little sorc comment: The grp of sorc´s can´t keep anyone from participating in keep battles as they rely on kiting and space to be effective - you don´t have that in a keep.
The only thing that can fight a ballgrp in a keep is - a ballgrp. Your playstyle ruins the fun for everyone not participating in that particular playstyle. Not the case for anyting else. Go figure.

I love this delusion you live under that ball groups ruin the game. It's so entertaining to see you say such things but bring absolutely nothing to argue other than the fact you can't kill them and there is lag. Get better and welcome to eso.
If your 7 - 10m group didn't benefit from camps then your players don't know how to use them .

Lost 1 player to that zerg you hate so much? Camp up they are back with you without being unable to res them cause they are camping your body whilst they res in the open in combat because of their numbers.

I guess it doesn't help the ganking playstyle who prefer too only play pvp if they are the only ones attacking and then cry when they die... agreed. But for any group trying to act with coordination and 2 way pvp camps were the best feature in the game. I regularly saved keeps in a 3m group because of camps when we were against more than 10x our number (ground oil was amazing and should come back too)

Now with camps back the meta of bravely running away from fights wouldn't change. It's still there for all those who like to do it when the enemy fights back a little. But also this who dont like that style have their playstyle available. Win win.

And are you really telling me the fight for bridge or sej or chalman isn't endless now without camps?

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

So much bullcrap. Really do you believe what you´re writing?

I´ve been leading a grp of 7 to 10 people since i picked up pvping in this game (after i got my precious wormcult set - may until november 2014 and our smallgrp since 1.6 hit). I can count the situation where forward camps were a greater benefit to a smallgrp than they were for zergs on one hand. Ofcourse they were convinient for dueling or when we were just picking on people on resource routes...
However in every objective focused scenario forward camps were biting the small grp in the a**. You could wipe 30ppl with 10 and they´d be all back before you even repaired a breach. No thanks i definetly don´t ever want that mechanic back.

Another crappy thing this encouraged was the oh so funny batswarm bomb die repeat maneuver. People would just kill themselves endlessly while trying to take as many AP as they could - respawning wasn´t an issue.

And to your little sorc comment: The grp of sorc´s can´t keep anyone from participating in keep battles as they rely on kiting and space to be effective - you don´t have that in a keep.
The only thing that can fight a ballgrp in a keep is - a ballgrp. Your playstyle ruins the fun for everyone not participating in that particular playstyle. Not the case for anyting else. Go figure.

I love this delusion you live under that ball groups ruin the game. It's so entertaining to see you say such things but bring absolutely nothing to argue other than the fact you can't kill them and there is lag. Get better and welcome to eso.
If your 7 - 10m group didn't benefit from camps then your players don't know how to use them .

Lost 1 player to that zerg you hate so much? Camp up they are back with you without being unable to res them cause they are camping your body whilst they res in the open in combat because of their numbers.

I guess it doesn't help the ganking playstyle who prefer too only play pvp if they are the only ones attacking and then cry when they die... agreed. But for any group trying to act with coordination and 2 way pvp camps were the best feature in the game. I regularly saved keeps in a 3m group because of camps when we were against more than 10x our number (ground oil was amazing and should come back too)

Now with camps back the meta of bravely running away from fights wouldn't change. It's still there for all those who like to do it when the enemy fights back a little. But also this who dont like that style have their playstyle available. Win win.

And are you really telling me the fight for bridge or sej or chalman isn't endless now without camps?

Thing is, both sides have their ups and downs, but in summary I prefer no fc`s or heavily adjusted ones.

Why are you getting mad and trying to insult people? I thought we are exchanging opinions? Or is that only ok, if people agree with you?

Derra · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

So much bullcrap. Really do you believe what you´re writing?

I´ve been leading a grp of 7 to 10 people since i picked up pvping in this game (after i got my precious wormcult set - may until november 2014 and our smallgrp since 1.6 hit). I can count the situation where forward camps were a greater benefit to a smallgrp than they were for zergs on one hand. Ofcourse they were convinient for dueling or when we were just picking on people on resource routes...
However in every objective focused scenario forward camps were biting the small grp in the a**. You could wipe 30ppl with 10 and they´d be all back before you even repaired a breach. No thanks i definetly don´t ever want that mechanic back.

Another crappy thing this encouraged was the oh so funny batswarm bomb die repeat maneuver. People would just kill themselves endlessly while trying to take as many AP as they could - respawning wasn´t an issue.

And to your little sorc comment: The grp of sorc´s can´t keep anyone from participating in keep battles as they rely on kiting and space to be effective - you don´t have that in a keep.
The only thing that can fight a ballgrp in a keep is - a ballgrp. Your playstyle ruins the fun for everyone not participating in that particular playstyle. Not the case for anyting else. Go figure.

I love this delusion you live under that ball groups ruin the game. It's so entertaining to see you say such things but bring absolutely nothing to argue other than the fact you can't kill them and there is lag. Get better and welcome to eso.
If your 7 - 10m group didn't benefit from camps then your players don't know how to use them .

That´s exactly the problem. Nothing can kill a mediocre ballgrp except for another ballgrp or a REALLY BIG ZERG (i don´t think there´s a debate if ballgrps are the most efficient way to play - nobody is arguing that?). That´s all i have to bring to the table.
It´s ball or bust. Ofc it´s my personal opinion that these ballgrps ruin the game for everyone not participating in this playstyle (because it´s the only way of being truely competetive) - but i know i´m not alone with that.
The fact that this playstyle contributes to the attrocious lagfest cyrodiil is in the evenings is just the icing on my cake. You´ve amputated your own foot without even noticing it (in terms of the argument).

My grp did benefit from camps. It´s just more players have more benefit of a camp and it promotes shabby gameplay.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2015

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

So much bullcrap. Really do you believe what you´re writing?

I´ve been leading a grp of 7 to 10 people since i picked up pvping in this game (after i got my precious wormcult set - may until november 2014 and our smallgrp since 1.6 hit). I can count the situation where forward camps were a greater benefit to a smallgrp than they were for zergs on one hand. Ofcourse they were convinient for dueling or when we were just picking on people on resource routes...
However in every objective focused scenario forward camps were biting the small grp in the a**. You could wipe 30ppl with 10 and they´d be all back before you even repaired a breach. No thanks i definetly don´t ever want that mechanic back.

Another crappy thing this encouraged was the oh so funny batswarm bomb die repeat maneuver. People would just kill themselves endlessly while trying to take as many AP as they could - respawning wasn´t an issue.

And to your little sorc comment: The grp of sorc´s can´t keep anyone from participating in keep battles as they rely on kiting and space to be effective - you don´t have that in a keep.
The only thing that can fight a ballgrp in a keep is - a ballgrp. Your playstyle ruins the fun for everyone not participating in that particular playstyle. Not the case for anyting else. Go figure.

I love this delusion you live under that ball groups ruin the game. It's so entertaining to see you say such things but bring absolutely nothing to argue other than the fact you can't kill them and there is lag. Get better and welcome to eso.
If your 7 - 10m group didn't benefit from camps then your players don't know how to use them .

Lost 1 player to that zerg you hate so much? Camp up they are back with you without being unable to res them cause they are camping your body whilst they res in the open in combat because of their numbers.

I guess it doesn't help the ganking playstyle who prefer too only play pvp if they are the only ones attacking and then cry when they die... agreed. But for any group trying to act with coordination and 2 way pvp camps were the best feature in the game. I regularly saved keeps in a 3m group because of camps when we were against more than 10x our number (ground oil was amazing and should come back too)

Now with camps back the meta of bravely running away from fights wouldn't change. It's still there for all those who like to do it when the enemy fights back a little. But also this who dont like that style have their playstyle available. Win win.

And are you really telling me the fight for bridge or sej or chalman isn't endless now without camps?

Thing is, both sides have their ups and downs, but in summary I prefer no fc`s or heavily adjusted ones.

Why are you getting mad and trying to insult people? I thought we are exchanging opinions? Or is that only ok, if people agree with you?

We aren't being insulting or mad just discussing it

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

So much bullcrap. Really do you believe what you´re writing?

I´ve been leading a grp of 7 to 10 people since i picked up pvping in this game (after i got my precious wormcult set - may until november 2014 and our smallgrp since 1.6 hit). I can count the situation where forward camps were a greater benefit to a smallgrp than they were for zergs on one hand. Ofcourse they were convinient for dueling or when we were just picking on people on resource routes...
However in every objective focused scenario forward camps were biting the small grp in the a**. You could wipe 30ppl with 10 and they´d be all back before you even repaired a breach. No thanks i definetly don´t ever want that mechanic back.

Another crappy thing this encouraged was the oh so funny batswarm bomb die repeat maneuver. People would just kill themselves endlessly while trying to take as many AP as they could - respawning wasn´t an issue.

And to your little sorc comment: The grp of sorc´s can´t keep anyone from participating in keep battles as they rely on kiting and space to be effective - you don´t have that in a keep.
The only thing that can fight a ballgrp in a keep is - a ballgrp. Your playstyle ruins the fun for everyone not participating in that particular playstyle. Not the case for anyting else. Go figure.

I love this delusion you live under that ball groups ruin the game. It's so entertaining to see you say such things but bring absolutely nothing to argue other than the fact you can't kill them and there is lag. Get better and welcome to eso.
If your 7 - 10m group didn't benefit from camps then your players don't know how to use them .

That´s exactly the problem. Nothing can kill a mediocre ballgrp except for another ballgrp or a REALLY BIG ZERG. That´s all i have to bring to the table.
It´s ball or bust. Ofc it´s my personal opinion that these ballgrps ruin the game for everyone not participating in this playstyle - but i know i´m not alone with that.
The fact that this playstyle contributes to the attrocious lagfest cyrodiil is in the evenings is just the icing on my cake. You´ve amputated your own foot without even noticing it (in terms of the argument).

My grp did benefit from camps. It´s just more players have more benefit of a camp and it promotes shabby gameplay.

You can easily kill a 24m ball with 12 players also you can avoid their dmg easily. That playstyle is only strong because people don't know how to play against it.

My view is that ALL playstyles should be appreciated in the game. It's what keeps the pvp fun and varied.. it would be boring if everyone played exactly the same style. For example if everyone sat on a hill waiting for people to ride by no one would fight.

Cyro to me is meant to be a large open world pvp experience and that means gankers and small groups and coordinated bomb groups and uncoordinated pug zergs.

You say camps promote "shabby gameplay" I'd reply and say they promote DIFFERENT gameplay and that is never a bad thing.

Also you didn't answer my question. Is the fighting endless at the tunnel vision keeps like alessia - sej just the same as when there were camps or not?

Mojomonkeyman · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

So much bullcrap. Really do you believe what you´re writing?

I´ve been leading a grp of 7 to 10 people since i picked up pvping in this game (after i got my precious wormcult set - may until november 2014 and our smallgrp since 1.6 hit). I can count the situation where forward camps were a greater benefit to a smallgrp than they were for zergs on one hand. Ofcourse they were convinient for dueling or when we were just picking on people on resource routes...
However in every objective focused scenario forward camps were biting the small grp in the a**. You could wipe 30ppl with 10 and they´d be all back before you even repaired a breach. No thanks i definetly don´t ever want that mechanic back.

Another crappy thing this encouraged was the oh so funny batswarm bomb die repeat maneuver. People would just kill themselves endlessly while trying to take as many AP as they could - respawning wasn´t an issue.

And to your little sorc comment: The grp of sorc´s can´t keep anyone from participating in keep battles as they rely on kiting and space to be effective - you don´t have that in a keep.
The only thing that can fight a ballgrp in a keep is - a ballgrp. Your playstyle ruins the fun for everyone not participating in that particular playstyle. Not the case for anyting else. Go figure.

I love this delusion you live under that ball groups ruin the game. It's so entertaining to see you say such things but bring absolutely nothing to argue other than the fact you can't kill them and there is lag. Get better and welcome to eso.
If your 7 - 10m group didn't benefit from camps then your players don't know how to use them .

Lost 1 player to that zerg you hate so much? Camp up they are back with you without being unable to res them cause they are camping your body whilst they res in the open in combat because of their numbers.

I guess it doesn't help the ganking playstyle who prefer too only play pvp if they are the only ones attacking and then cry when they die... agreed. But for any group trying to act with coordination and 2 way pvp camps were the best feature in the game. I regularly saved keeps in a 3m group because of camps when we were against more than 10x our number (ground oil was amazing and should come back too)

Now with camps back the meta of bravely running away from fights wouldn't change. It's still there for all those who like to do it when the enemy fights back a little. But also this who dont like that style have their playstyle available. Win win.

And are you really telling me the fight for bridge or sej or chalman isn't endless now without camps?

Thing is, both sides have their ups and downs, but in summary I prefer no fc`s or heavily adjusted ones.

Why are you getting mad and trying to insult people? I thought we are exchanging opinions? Or is that only ok, if people agree with you?

We aren't being insulting or mad just discussing it

Haha, ok. All good then.

Etaniel · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You play on Us and I play on EU. On EU forward camps brought interest and actual interesting gameplay for groups of all sizes. If you ask anyone from eu who plays in any serious pvp group I'm sure 95% would say came should come back as they were before. From small scale to 'ball'.

Having played the most active campaign and won 3 times in a row camps were a pivotal part of that and their removal has hurt pvp by a proportion that is actually crazy to see. The times im talking about had over 5 active guilds on each faction on the campaign. Now theres basically 1 guild on each side and There is 1 fight on the map between BRK chat and arrius. That is it. 1 fight.

If groups lured some pugs away from the zerg to take back another keep it would REDUCE lag. Not to mention that players defending keeps against zergs would have something to use to counter them .

On a phone so quotations may be screwey

I loled. Forwardcamps can stay where they are. Unobtainable for the masses in my guildbank and gone from the general game. It was a crappy mechanic encouraging crappy gameplay.

It´s about discouraging ballgrps not 24 slots. Balling makes the game unattractive for everyone not doing it. This is something you have to realize. While someone doing 4v4 or 4vX does not bother a 24 slot at all it´s not the same the other way round.
The game is going down the drain at the moment for this very reason. You can´t participate in large scale pvp if you´re not part of a ball of death - which isn´t fun for most players i know.

I'm not gnna bother to copy your other posts in here too.

Forward camps are the reason ESO was such a good game for so long.

Players could defend against the unskilled night zergs without needing to become them. Guilds could attack an objective then die and go back to defend (spreading out combat into different areas of cyro) or even ... split their group... to some defending and some attacking without having to spend 30m to then 'run' to regroup afterwards.

Groups of leaders could coordinate, decide who attacks where, who goes to defend rather than ALL having to go and lag happening because of the extra time a camp gave you.

Yes im sure for some players who light the road behind them, camps were a bad mechanic like groups are a bad mechanic and any playstyle other than their own is a bad mechanic and the people who play that ways life is a bad mechanic.

Events could be held such a dueling etc without needing multiple players from each faction because a camp could be placed for the dueling event.

Why is it about discouraging ball groups it doesnt make the game unattractive any more than a small group of sorcs bolt escaping away like cowards whenever they are not outnumbering their enemies 3 to 1. oh wait its only 3vs 2 enemies? better run... Its just another varied group to try fight in cyro.

So much bullcrap. Really do you believe what you´re writing?

I´ve been leading a grp of 7 to 10 people since i picked up pvping in this game (after i got my precious wormcult set - may until november 2014 and our smallgrp since 1.6 hit). I can count the situation where forward camps were a greater benefit to a smallgrp than they were for zergs on one hand. Ofcourse they were convinient for dueling or when we were just picking on people on resource routes...
However in every objective focused scenario forward camps were biting the small grp in the a**. You could wipe 30ppl with 10 and they´d be all back before you even repaired a breach. No thanks i definetly don´t ever want that mechanic back.

Another crappy thing this encouraged was the oh so funny batswarm bomb die repeat maneuver. People would just kill themselves endlessly while trying to take as many AP as they could - respawning wasn´t an issue.

And to your little sorc comment: The grp of sorc´s can´t keep anyone from participating in keep battles as they rely on kiting and space to be effective - you don´t have that in a keep.
The only thing that can fight a ballgrp in a keep is - a ballgrp. Your playstyle ruins the fun for everyone not participating in that particular playstyle. Not the case for anyting else. Go figure.

I love this delusion you live under that ball groups ruin the game. It's so entertaining to see you say such things but bring absolutely nothing to argue other than the fact you can't kill them and there is lag. Get better and welcome to eso.
If your 7 - 10m group didn't benefit from camps then your players don't know how to use them .

Lost 1 player to that zerg you hate so much? Camp up they are back with you without being unable to res them cause they are camping your body whilst they res in the open in combat because of their numbers.

I guess it doesn't help the ganking playstyle who prefer too only play pvp if they are the only ones attacking and then cry when they die... agreed. But for any group trying to act with coordination and 2 way pvp camps were the best feature in the game. I regularly saved keeps in a 3m group because of camps when we were against more than 10x our number (ground oil was amazing and should come back too)

Now with camps back the meta of bravely running away from fights wouldn't change. It's still there for all those who like to do it when the enemy fights back a little. But also this who dont like that style have their playstyle available. Win win.

And are you really telling me the fight for bridge or sej or chalman isn't endless now without camps?

Camps were ridiculous, and even more ridiculous for people who claim to fight for objectives, they were a parasite in Cyrodil.

Wipe an entire attack force or defense, just to have one pesky stealther pop a camp and instantly get the army back up, no thanks. That was the worse thing ever. Death was meaningless, now it has a cost : git gud or enjoy horse simulator.

You are once again being incredibly insulting by insinuating (like many people in this thread) that small scale only comes down to ganking people off their horse.
A small scale group is when the numbers are small enough that you are capable of knowing everyone's ressource status, where interrupting casts and CC at the right time is crucial, and every member of the group plays an important role etc. Don't tell me a 24 man lagtrain cares whether a particular caster is interrupted or not.
That small group can take part in every aspect of Cyrodil, and that can be being cowards stealthing to gank lone horse riders, just like it can be targetting large zergs, defending keep breaches or flags etc.

It's no delusion that if something is ruining the game, it's ball groups. Don't give me any bullcrap such as " this game was advertised for it's large scale combat" because that doesn't apply to you, ball groups aren't large scale combat.
Large scale combat implies for example having a keep siege with attackers on both sides, having to deal with flankers grabbing the ressources in your back, dealing with reinforcements that try to come from other keeps, and it is not about stacking x number of people on a crown.

When a single campaign is lagging, it's always, 100% always because people are massively stacking up somewhere and spamming aoe dmg, aoe heals, purge, caltrops etc.
It's why a lot of keep fights end up as big lagfests, because zergs that are usually semi spread out suddenly all stack on the flags. Ball groups are people who decided that the flag stacking should apply everywhere else in Cyro. And I wouldn't care that people played like that if it didn't ruin performance for everyone else.

ToRelax · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

Some of your points I like, am neutral, or indifferent about. "Remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not" is the only one I am completely against. As a Sorc this change wouldn't hurt you because you can just blip around all over the map regardless of whether you are snared or rooted. However, Rapids is critical for other classes with less mobility like DK and Templar.

Don´t agree with the changes listed. Too much has actually happened...
Maneuver should just break on heals aswell as on dmg. That would solve a lot of problems.

A much more elegant solution.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2015

I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.

Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd

You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them

Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.

Derra · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.

Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd

You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them

Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.

NO NO NO a million times NO!!!

Ballgrps themselves (and the underlying game mechanics supporting them) have shaped the large scale pvp in eso so that they have become the definition of large scale combat because no other playstyle when playing objectives is vaible. This is whats wrong about it!

They are a self self institutionalized monarchy when it comes to eso objective pvp.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You can easily kill a 24m ball with 12 players also you can avoid their dmg easily. That playstyle is only strong because people don't know how to play against it.

My view is that ALL playstyles should be appreciated in the game. It's what keeps the pvp fun and varied.. it would be boring if everyone played exactly the same style. For example if everyone sat on a hill waiting for people to ride by no one would fight.

Ok some people might take it personally what i´m going to write:

I think banana squad when running with 12 people is just a smaller ballgrp with really good players in it. There i said it. Which basically proves the point - it takes a ballgrp to beat a ballgrp.

I think every playstyle should be vaible too. What i do think on top of that is: Every playstyle should be able to contribute when playing around cyrodiil objectives. This is currently not the case. For objectives it´s ball or bust (when fighting a ballgrp) and thats bad game design.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.

Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd

You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them

Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.

NO NO NO a million times NO!!!

Ballgrps themselves (and the underlying game mechanics supporting them) have shaped the large scale pvp in eso so that they have become the definition of large scale combat because no other playstyle when playing objectives is vaible. This is whats wrong about it!

They are a self self institutionalized monarchy when it comes to eso objective pvp.

They haven't "shaped" pvp pvp has always been like that since the start of the game. People stacking up impulsing used to be the old style people complained about. There has always been groups playing pvp like this.

If you would actually give constructive arguments for it maybe I could understand your views but so far you just disagree because of "they are too effective" and "lag" from what I'm seeing? Please explain to me (if you want to) or at least reply to the other points. Just repeating no over and over again isn't a discussion

Etaniel · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.

Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd

You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them

Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.

Don't lie and tell me you can know the ressource status of every member of your group. You know at most how many of what ultimates are ready and if one guy is falling behind.

Of course your type of group will face different challenges, I'm not denying that, I was just defining what small scale means to me and most other small scalers, and that it doesn't revolve around ganking people off their horse.

Death has more meaning now than it had when camps existed. You can prevent rezzing, it's actually something we watch out for in small groups, and we have to decide if we deal with it or not, is it worth killing this one and letting the other one get up, or should the other one stay down?

Derra · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.

Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd

You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them

Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.

NO NO NO a million times NO!!!

Ballgrps themselves (and the underlying game mechanics supporting them) have shaped the large scale pvp in eso so that they have become the definition of large scale combat because no other playstyle when playing objectives is vaible. This is whats wrong about it!

They are a self self institutionalized monarchy when it comes to eso objective pvp.

They haven't "shaped" pvp pvp has always been like that since the start of the game. People stacking up impulsing used to be the old style people complained about. There has always been groups playing pvp like this.

If you would actually give constructive arguments for it maybe I could understand your views but so far you just disagree because of "they are too effective" and "lag" from what I'm seeing? Please explain to me (if you want to) or at least reply to the other points. Just repeating no over and over again isn't a discussion

With the difference that you could actually break them before aoe caps with well coordinated ultimates and old negate. Even i can remember there was a time people were actually afraid to stack up because aoe/negate/oil/siege could kill them. This has changed and as a result we have the ballgrp we have now.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.

Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd

You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them

Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.

Don't lie and tell me you can know the ressource status of every member of your group. You know at most how many of what ultimates are ready and if one guy is falling behind.

Of course your type of group will face different challenges, I'm not denying that, I was just defining what small scale means to me and most other small scalers, and that it doesn't revolve around ganking people off their horse.

Death has more meaning now than it had when camps existed. You can prevent rezzing, it's actually something we watch out for in small groups, and we have to decide if we deal with it or not, is it worth killing this one and letting the other one get up, or should the other one stay down?

You probs realise that we fight very differently I've not watched you fight so don't know the type of fights you pick but I do respect your right to do so (even if you do/don't for my choices). I'm assuming that you do occasionally fight large numbers of pugs (30+ non organised) in the following reply. I'm not saying all you do is gank players and I know that you personally don't do that but many players think that doing it makes them good.

When fighting 30+ pugs you cannot stop a res. Yes you might be able to interrupt 1 or 2 sure. But as soon as you kite away from where you just killed 10 of them those players will be res'd. Also with kagrenac you cannot stop people resing multiple people in bats or even not in bats. The situation may allow you to do it sometimes if you are in low numbers vs low numbers but not vs a pug zerg.

Also as a leader when I'm running my group I'm constantly watching health to command barrier. I'm aware when I'm asking for dodges or sprints of stamina values and I'm aware of when their burst dmg is ready (ulti and other stuff). Do I know the exact values? No do I know enough and as much as is needed in any size of group? Yes. The reason for this is because I won't ask my group to do something which they don't have the resources to complete. And you have to factor this in when running a large group. I don't run in the 40 50 man zergs. That's not our style

I've seen the edit Derra - I don't speak on behalf of banana squad only for myself. If you think that of bananas I'd question what you consider not a ball group. And why effective playstyles of one type are bad and effective playstyles of other types are ok.

ToRelax · October 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I cant pick out parts of your post to paste without a PC but in short.

Death is meaningless now too. Wiped half of that zerg of 30 blues with your small group? No problem they will all be rest by their other zerglings by the time your done fighting the other half (if you can because they res so fast their numbers grow). There is no punishment for trying to res when you are in a zerg and a high punishment on small groups. You can't kite large numbers killing them slowly because as soon as you move away from them they will be res'd

You claim I'm insulting towards small scale and then go on to think that cc and knowing people's resources isn't needed when fighting 24 v24. It doesn't change. You still need to know when people's ulti are ready burst and cc and movement become maybe even more important because if someone is left behind they won't be able to tank until you can get back to them

Ball groups are the definition of large scale combat. 380+ player kills inside a keep during one siege and subsequent defence from blues and reds 24m group what's more large scale than that? EP were sieging the keep from dc we took it from them after they opened both sides and then held vs all of the respawn and constant resing from each side. There were over 60 players on each side against us.

NO NO NO a million times NO!!!

Ballgrps themselves (and the underlying game mechanics supporting them) have shaped the large scale pvp in eso so that they have become the definition of large scale combat because no other playstyle when playing objectives is vaible. This is whats wrong about it!

They are a self self institutionalized monarchy when it comes to eso objective pvp.

They haven't "shaped" pvp pvp has always been like that since the start of the game. People stacking up impulsing used to be the old style people complained about. There has always been groups playing pvp like this.

If you would actually give constructive arguments for it maybe I could understand your views but so far you just disagree because of "they are too effective" and "lag" from what I'm seeing? Please explain to me (if you want to) or at least reply to the other points. Just repeating no over and over again isn't a discussion

Until 1.6 came out I could fight for keeps with a group of 6, and even when I was solo and zergballs would fight against each other I could contribute quite a lot, because I was able to deal AoE damage without going right into my faction's zergball (WoE, Streak), I had Negate and Oil and Meatbags were far more powerful than in 1.6.
In 1.6 all I could do was trying to engage with some siegers in a small scale or 1vX fight and kill them before the raid recognized me or my group as a threat. Once the inner wall was down and the raid would regroup, the fight was basically over for me.
And now in 2.1, that became so much harder again, making me completely useless in objective PvP. The game should be altered so that other playstyles than zergballs are viable again.

LegendaryChef · October 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Valindor Magnus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

spenc_cathb16_ESO wrote: »

I'd like to see these 1vXer's form a 24 man raid that they think could last more than 20 seconds against a competent raid.

Like that would ever happen doe

Are you insinuating I couldnt join VEs group today and perform just as well as everyone else despite having never played in the group or spent time really doing this?

Let me know, Id be happy to oblige.

No, I'm insinuating that you come up with 23 other superduper skilled players and try taking on Haxus, or reroll and take on VE.

You want me to form a guild for the purpose of entertaining your point that we couldnt do this?

Did you form VE yourself / are you the leader?

Don't fall for that bait lol. You obviously wouldn't just be able to wipe these guild raids within the first few nights if you had a 24 man group of solo players but you would conversely learn how to very quickly and when you start to wipe their raids then they get more ppl and or change their builds then when they wipe yours you would have to get more ppl. This is how it's been going on lately. What I really don't understand is why people feel the need to try and change how other people play. If you don't want to get run over by zergs then set your self up in between flagged keeps where you know players will be running and try and gets some small man action, likewise with mile gates and the sewer entrances. There's also lower pop campaigns that have less zergs and IC can have really good small man action at times. If you really want to play the only objectives we have in cyrodiil though you are going to have to deal with the zergs. I don't think zos imagined having to deal with 20,30,40,50,60 people stacking within the same 8 meter radius but I also don't think they expected keep battles to be a bunch of individual battles going on. Likewise they aren't going to give a solo player or small group of players a way of being able to kill large amounts of players. Although I do see some people asking for this I mainly see people asking to take away from the zergs what makes them so dangerous. The aoe cap should be removed, but as long as their is any aoe in the game people will stack, and if they removed all aoe the. Your small or medium group would have even less of a chance of wiping a group of 24 or more. So what is the exact change people who hate zergs want to see? Because I can't really see any realistic changes that can be made to alleviate your complaints. I've seen y'all say you don't want a single players to be able to just destroy a Zerg but at the same time ask for ways for small groups to deal with zergs... Just removing the aoe cap still wouldn't really give y'all much of a chance unless you get a stealth bomb off or engage them in the right time. I still have seen multiple clips of small and medium groups wiping much larger groups then theirs by engaging correctly and having siege support so I know it can be done in this meta.

Numbers always have an advantage. If a small group or single player is able to wipe a much larger force it does not mean the smaller group is somehow OP, because the larger one must have played worse (wich in this meta can also mean they didn't stack up). Remember the endless batswarms at launch? These were OP, but they would never have been able to wipe a large group of people who knew what they were doing. I wasn't vamp at that time, and I had no problems surviving against that ***, if I was a much better player also killing them.
By 1.5 the game was much more balanced. In a pretty good spot actually, with my main concerns being 1.) Sorcerers being the worst class in groups and 1vX except for Negate and 2.) the still widely underperforming stamina builds. There was no reason to nerf anyone, Templars were crazy good healers, NBs even better tanks then DKs. Both issues could have been solved in very different ways. In fact, both Sorcs and stamina builds became kind of OP compared to the DKs people had been complaining about, though ofc they lost Negate...
In 1.6 players complained about low ttk, "one-shot-builds" etc. For some reason I mostly stopped dueling shortly after the patch hit though. Because the fights were too long. The deciding factor wasn't always skill anymore, it became concentration, the ability to stay awake long enough in such a boring fight! We had basically endless resources, but the cassuals wouldn't realize that. They had never learned to manage their resources correctly, so now most players still couldn't sustain as well as I would in 1.5, and they'd never realize how long fights between skilled players would take as all they saw was getting destroyed within seconds by someone seemingly never running out of resources and rarely getting hit.
And now that they even introduced this damage reduction, there really is absolutely nothing left that would give small groups a fighting chance against larger ones except the stupidity of the latter one. Is that is not a given, you just have no chance.

Everyone got the damage reduction and the healing reduction was larger than the damage one so if anything it should be harder to sustain heals than it is to do damage in comparison to 1.6. I still want to know what the exact changes y'all are asking for. I understand it's frustrating even as someone who plays in groups of 16-24 once it gets past 10-12 people you really lose the feeling that you are actually contributing anything to the fight and it just become a mindless pattern of the same thing, but the only options are to go do something else or fight back by doing the same thing. No one is just gonna run in small man groups and die to zergs over and over in objectives because of the principal that "zergs are dumb and I'm not gonna do it" because the fact of the matter is if you want to win campaigns this how it's done atm. I am not advocating for groups of more than 24 to stack up and all coordinate. But the group size right now is 24 if you have a problem with that take it up with zeni not the players who do it.

- remove AoE caps on damage
- cap all support and healing spells at 6
- invent a new dynamic ult system
- revert the blocking, roll dodge, bolt escape, scales and eclipse nerfs
- deal with Purge: as example, make efficient Purge only selfpurge. It's important to preserve a group purge but it doesn't have to be that easily spammable
- remove the snare and root immunity from Rapid Maneuver. A Purge is okay, an immunity is not.
- increase Impulse radius back to 8m and make WoE competitive again
- make Vigor selfheal only. This is because stamina group heals make no sense to me, but one of my the changes I'd like that also happen to effect zergballs negatively.
- do not increase the CP cap again and greatly reduce the effectiveness of all the stars you can spend points into.
- put continuous diminishing returns on all max stats and regens. These last two points are against unlimited resources and power creep, but they also help against larger forces because if you can face them, you play better, and if you play better, you manage your resources better.
- increase the health multiplier back to 1.5
- remove the cooldown from surge
- change all armor passives back to per piece equipped instead of a set effect for at least 5 pieces. This enables very viable niche setups to combat larger numbers

I'm sure I could think of more. Anyway, it should be clear by now I have a very clear idea what should be done.

#EloForPresident