hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

You people act like DKs are not constantly trying out new builds. I can tell you they are, and those who gave up and switched to stamina or another class...so what? They have real lives and can't dedicate the time and in game resources to try out every single build, and they shouldn't have to just to be viable. You shouldn't have to fight with a class for months just to find the one niche that works just to be somewhat close to any other class.

Those of you with brand new toons that killed something in pvp... good for you. Your hand full of experiences on lowbie level campaigns is meaningless. Come on people, you are quite literally noob DK's, do you really think you should be coming on here trying to speak authoritatively or tell other people they are not trying hard enough cause you killed a guy in a noob campaign? You have to be joking.

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share someone's unique brilliance or motivation.

I can't even... I... am utterly speech less! So an emperor kills a zerg, and every player in that zerg is a pvp noob? Even after they strategically fell back and tried to regroup. ..even when he chases them from the keep....all of those players must have been total noobs. How is the highlight reel of magic DK excellence inadmissible? Is it because you don't even come close to it. This is the major flaw of this thread and the point of my earlier post....let me say this so the casual players with lives but have been playing the game since release understand. ...MAGIC DK WAS BROKEN BEFORE THE NERFS. NOT FOR THE REGULAR DK, BUT FOR THE ELITE PLAYERS. THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS. NOW THAT BAD DK'S GET WRECKED, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE DK ARE CRYING BECAUSE FINALLY OTHER PLAYERS DON'T RUN SIMPLY AT THE SIGHT OF FLAPPING WINGS. I REMEMBER THE MAGIC DK YOU PEOPLE ARE CRYING FOR...IT WAS OP. PERIOD. AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS VIDEO AND BACK THEN WAS THAT EVERY MAGIC DK WAS LIKE THAT, NOT JUST THE REAL ELITE PLAYERS.

Too many confuse how long they've played this game with how good they are...the two are not synonymous. Just cause you've played a class since release doesn't make you good. Just cause you participated in a few theory crafting forums doesn't make you an authority. Screen shot your name in the top 5 % for your campaign and then maybe you can dismiss another player's highlight reel, until then I'll trust sypherpk video, I'll trust Veldi kodi ' s video, I'll trust Deltia's video...you know the elite players who have illustrated that the class is still viable because while they don't show all the fails in the videos, you can watch their streams and you can see that the highlight reels you are quick to dismiss is what it looks like in live streams.


The nerve of some people. ..I'm offended that just cause I disagree I gotta be a noob because I haven't been on this forum complaining about nothing as long as other people...get over yourself bro!

I remember those times. the magic Dk was OP as heck back then. Almost everyone I faced was a LA magicka DK with a shield that block cast spamed flame whip, the shield gap closer, could keep up scales for a VERY long time. (this was back when it did not have the 4 hit limit.) and keep someone locked down with never ending talon spam. and if one managed to get thru all that, the DK could just pop their heal and be back up in no time. Oh and anyone that pointed this out was a scrub that needed to L2P according to the elite. Good times those were!:D I bet someone is preparing to tell me so at this very moment.....

No one is saying make the DK OP. Those of us who play that class and truly love it are saying "make it viable in pvp again". Because right now it is not up to par man. Everyone knows it. It needs some tlc.

What is truly sad is that you take a guy like me who has only played DK since beta and now I would rather be on a different class. So much so I just powered level a new class up to V11 so I can be viable in pvp again wether by myself (which I enjoy) or in my small group (love this). Do you know what a group member said tonight?

We were in a 3 vs 3 situation sneaking up on them. And our friend said "don't worry about the DK, get him last." And he is right.

Not to mention we didn't come across one single magica DK tonight. That speaks for itself.

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yeah, the nerve.

If you actually watched Sypher's videos, let alone analyzed them, you would understand they contradict the "case" you are trying to make.

Here he comes and straight outs and says it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74WGwlqMnPk

And that's a stamina DK, which people generally regard as competitive.

You see an example of how broken the DK is... I see an elite PvP'er frustrated due to constant CC and biting jabs spam survive for 4minutes and 40 seconds of unrelenting pressure. Yes the nerf worked! No that does not mean that the class is dead or broken. I take it that you take this to be what should have happened.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP19DMVlbos

or this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGr-xPppEYo


These are old videos, before 1.7, but this is a glimpse of what the old DK is like. So I have to ask, which do you think is fair and balance, as it relates to the average player. An elite player survives 5 players for 4+minutes then eventually dies from damage after constant threat....or elite player steam rolls 20+ players without being killed or running out of resources. However you decided the truth is someone here is getting screwed...either the one player who struggles to kills a group, or the 20 players going up against the juggernaut.


At any rate, I never intended to imply that any player has to be in the top 5 % to be taken seriously, my comment was specifically directed at the player (not naming names) who felt the need to dismiss the success of a player who seem to overcome the fact that we can all agree on, the DK is no longer OP.

That stated...I wonder if this is the panel that was being mentioned. Since the player who mentioned it is ignoring me and likely will not see this post so i'll post it here so that others can see the full commentary of these elite pvp'ers....fast forward to 1:09:00 for the section on class balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk6oYAiQGNo

For the record....I am in the same school of thought as Lefty Lucy at 1:19:10 mark where he talks about class balance.

No, that's not an example of a broken DK. That is an example of why it is not fun to play one. Sypher survives for 4 minutes because he is a very good and experienced player and a stamina DK is pretty good at tanking. Nothing in that video disputes what I and others are saying. You imply his frustration is spur of the moment, the consequence of specific stuff happening in that fight. It's not. It's the culmination of months of frustration with the class he once made famous and went weeks for a time not playing it because it is a poor match for his solo style of play. Look at his video library: he has many videos post 1.6 of his sorcerer and NB winning fights like that one and very few DK videos (indeed his "tanking a zerg" video illustrates his frustration, it's plain in his voice). Did you not hear what he has to say in the last video that you linked?

You are so scared by what DKs were last summer that it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion. You scream at us in CAPS: "THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS." Your retorts are to link stuff from what might as well be another era of ESO online and create a strawman by claiming that's what I think should have happened. Are you dense? Do you not understand there is a difference between recognizing how the development of the game has undermined the DK and the never stated desire to return to May 2014 when DKs facerolled everything.

How is it that you have to ask what I think is fair? Do you spend all of your time looking up old DK videos and not even keeping up to what people have posted in this thread and others? Why are you even in the discussion? To make strawmen and remind us of what we already know?

Lefty Lucy says nothing that I dispute. He says nothing most of the posters who have commented on DKs will dispute. Classes should do things differently and not every class should be able to do everything.

BUT...

The game has changed and blurred a lot of the class distinction. In the video they said a NB shouldn't have a good heal - but every NB I fight in Cyrodiil has exactly that because of the new Vigor skill. Templars now have an execute. Sorcerers are a lot better at face-tanking because of the (new) uniqueness of hardened ward and the champion system. If you weren't so traumatized by DKs and actually looked at those old videos you would see none of these new post 1.6 changes, no NBs spamming vigor, no Templars,Jesus Beams, no anomalous sorcerer shields. While you insist on reminding everyone how broken the DK was because it could tank and kill, you have failed to see how in the past 6 months, sorcerers and NBs can kill, move, and tank via damage avoidance, I'm not saying nerf NB or Sorc. I am saying open your eyes, recognize that the game has changed, and old assumptions about the classes are obsolete.

Joy_Division wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yeah, the nerve.

If you actually watched Sypher's videos, let alone analyzed them, you would understand they contradict the "case" you are trying to make.

Here he comes and straight outs and says it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74WGwlqMnPk

And that's a stamina DK, which people generally regard as competitive.

You see an example of how broken the DK is... I see an elite PvP'er frustrated due to constant CC and biting jabs spam survive for 4minutes and 40 seconds of unrelenting pressure. Yes the nerf worked! No that does not mean that the class is dead or broken. I take it that you take this to be what should have happened.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP19DMVlbos

or this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGr-xPppEYo


These are old videos, before 1.7, but this is a glimpse of what the old DK is like. So I have to ask, which do you think is fair and balance, as it relates to the average player. An elite player survives 5 players for 4+minutes then eventually dies from damage after constant threat....or elite player steam rolls 20+ players without being killed or running out of resources. However you decided the truth is someone here is getting screwed...either the one player who struggles to kills a group, or the 20 players going up against the juggernaut.


At any rate, I never intended to imply that any player has to be in the top 5 % to be taken seriously, my comment was specifically directed at the player (not naming names) who felt the need to dismiss the success of a player who seem to overcome the fact that we can all agree on, the DK is no longer OP.

That stated...I wonder if this is the panel that was being mentioned. Since the player who mentioned it is ignoring me and likely will not see this post so i'll post it here so that others can see the full commentary of these elite pvp'ers....fast forward to 1:09:00 for the section on class balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk6oYAiQGNo

For the record....I am in the same school of thought as Lefty Lucy at 1:19:10 mark where he talks about class balance.

No, that's not an example of a broken DK. That is an example of why it is not fun to play one. Sypher survives for 4 minutes because he is a very good and experienced player and a stamina DK is pretty good at tanking. Nothing in that video disputes what I and others are saying. You imply his frustration is spur of the moment, the consequence of specific stuff happening in that fight. It's not. It's the culmination of months of frustration with the class he once made famous and went weeks for a time not playing it because it is a poor match for his solo style of play. Look at his video library: he has many videos post 1.6 of his sorcerer and NB winning fights like that one and very few DK videos (indeed his "tanking a zerg" video illustrates his frustration, it's plain in his voice). Did you not hear what he has to say in the last video that you linked?

You are so scared by what DKs were last summer that it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion. You scream at us in CAPS: "THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS." Your retorts are to link stuff from what might as well be another era of ESO online and create a strawman by claiming that's what I think should have happened. Are you dense? Do you not understand there is a difference between recognizing how the development of the game has undermined the DK and the never stated desire to return to May 2014 when DKs facerolled everything.

How is it that you have to ask what I think is fair? Do you spend all of your time looking up old DK videos and not even keeping up to what people have posted in this thread and others? Why are you even in the discussion? To make strawmen and remind us of what we already know?

Lefty Lucy says nothing that I dispute. He says nothing most of the posters who have commented on DKs will dispute. Classes should do things differently and not every class should be able to do everything.

BUT...

The game has changed and blurred a lot of the class distinction. In the video they said a NB shouldn't have a good heal - but every NB I fight in Cyrodiil has exactly that because of the new Vigor skill. Templars now have an execute. Sorcerers are a lot better at face-tanking because of the (new) uniqueness of hardened ward and the champion system. If you weren't so traumatized by DKs and actually looked at those old videos you would see none of these new post 1.6 changes, no NBs spamming vigor, no Templars,Jesus Beams, no anomalous sorcerer shields. While you insist on reminding everyone how broken the DK was because it could tank and kill, you have failed to see how in the past 6 months, sorcerers and NBs can kill, move, and tank via damage avoidance, I'm not saying nerf NB or Sorc. I am saying open your eyes, recognize that the game has changed, and old assumptions about the classes are obsolete.

In the eso panel video I posted King Richard shared a story that really sticks with me (which is why I agree with the current state of DK) he shared that in a conversation with one of the developers of the game, he asked about AP gains that lean toward groups rather than solo. He asked why a player in a group who kills one player gets more AP per kill then a player who kills 6 players in a 1vx scenario. He says that the developer response was that of shock that 1 player could possibly kill 6 players at once. This story is telling and illustrates that the developer never intended 1vx, they never intended small scale groups or solo players could kill larger groups yet alone take on whole zergs by themselves and win. Therefore its safe to assume that a player struggling to kill multiple opponents is indeed the game working as intended from the developer point of view.

As a player, especially one who likes small scale group or solo pvp/pve and duels, I think that ZoS has indeed been heavy handed in their manner of eliminating or at best weighing against 1vx. I think there is a sweet spot in the nerfs and where the game was in 2014, but I do not think the nerfs are specific to DK and to Templars. I think the changes to game mechanics have hit the less mobile classes harder, but only due to the fact that players through indirect means have found ways to circumvent these by kiting and creating situation that are more favorable for 1vx. Nightblade and Sorcs excel only in that they can quickly move away from harm (without a target ) to create space with a zerg or group. But this is not the game mechanics favoring nightblades and sorcs this is the player meta favoring mobility and stealth over standing your ground. Only in the player meta is DK or Templar for that matter gimped, but only in situations where the player needs to kite to survive. This then brings me to what Lefty Lucy was talking about.... no class should be good at everything, the tanky class shouldn't have the same escapablity of a nightblade, the nightblade shouldn't have the tanky utility of a DK or Templar and so on.

The real issue here is what is the sweet spot in the game mechanics that works for all classes. Do I think that 50% damage reduction is it, NO! Maybe closer to 35%. Do I think damage shield should be less effective, NO! Perhaps a rework of how damage is calculated against them. Do I think no stamina regen on blocking is fair, NO! Maybe 50% reduction accomplishes the task of stopping or deterring block casting. Do I think roll penalty helps the game, NO! Perhaps a 15% penalty does the trick without crippling non stamina players. Do I think healing should be cut in half, NO! Perhaps a rework of healing stacking or just a reduction to 25%. These are game mechanics that have hit all classes, not just DK or Templar, they are not specific to the DK class.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

Everyone agrees there should be four classes. We should recognize that if the day comes that a class is running only 2 class skills to be viable there is a problem.

When people say DK are fine they refer to stam dk. A viable stam DK uses 2 class skills. That is a problem. You should be running at lest 5 if not more class skills.

If not then what's the point of having classes?

Just how many class attacking powers do you think stamina Sorcerers and stamina Nightblades use 5 class powers?
Stamina Sorcerers have no class attacks only utilities. Stamina Nightblades have Surprise Attack and Ambush for class attacks the power with high magic cost.

Using Weapon attacks and class as mostly utilities is the reality of stamina builds. If you want to use your class powers more do with nearly all stamina Nightblades do one cost reduction for magic on jewelry, at least 12% cost reduction from CP and two light. If you want to use magic on a stamina build you have to pay the cost.

Nightblade has more useful stamina morphs than anyone....why would you even mention them? Templar has 3 total...one of which is just terrible which leaves Binding Javelin and Biting Jabs. DK and Sorc are also in a rough spot for Stamina, NB is like the only one who has tons of options and good passives for both Magicka and Stamina from class abilities.

pjwb16_ESO wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yeah, the nerve.

If you actually watched Sypher's videos, let alone analyzed them, you would understand they contradict the "case" you are trying to make.

Here he comes and straight outs and says it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74WGwlqMnPk

And that's a stamina DK, which people generally regard as competitive.

You see an example of how broken the DK is... I see an elite PvP'er frustrated due to constant CC and biting jabs spam survive for 4minutes and 40 seconds of unrelenting pressure. Yes the nerf worked! No that does not mean that the class is dead or broken. I take it that you take this to be what should have happened.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP19DMVlbos

or this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGr-xPppEYo


These are old videos, before 1.7, but this is a glimpse of what the old DK is like. So I have to ask, which do you think is fair and balance, as it relates to the average player. An elite player survives 5 players for 4+minutes then eventually dies from damage after constant threat....or elite player steam rolls 20+ players without being killed or running out of resources. However you decided the truth is someone here is getting screwed...either the one player who struggles to kills a group, or the 20 players going up against the juggernaut.


At any rate, I never intended to imply that any player has to be in the top 5 % to be taken seriously, my comment was specifically directed at the player (not naming names) who felt the need to dismiss the success of a player who seem to overcome the fact that we can all agree on, the DK is no longer OP.

That stated...I wonder if this is the panel that was being mentioned. Since the player who mentioned it is ignoring me and likely will not see this post so i'll post it here so that others can see the full commentary of these elite pvp'ers....fast forward to 1:09:00 for the section on class balance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk6oYAiQGNo

For the record....I am in the same school of thought as Lefty Lucy at 1:19:10 mark where he talks about class balance.

No, that's not an example of a broken DK. That is an example of why it is not fun to play one. Sypher survives for 4 minutes because he is a very good and experienced player and a stamina DK is pretty good at tanking. Nothing in that video disputes what I and others are saying. You imply his frustration is spur of the moment, the consequence of specific stuff happening in that fight. It's not. It's the culmination of months of frustration with the class he once made famous and went weeks for a time not playing it because it is a poor match for his solo style of play. Look at his video library: he has many videos post 1.6 of his sorcerer and NB winning fights like that one and very few DK videos (indeed his "tanking a zerg" video illustrates his frustration, it's plain in his voice). Did you not hear what he has to say in the last video that you linked?

You are so scared by what DKs were last summer that it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion. You scream at us in CAPS: "THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS." Your retorts are to link stuff from what might as well be another era of ESO online and create a strawman by claiming that's what I think should have happened. Are you dense? Do you not understand there is a difference between recognizing how the development of the game has undermined the DK and the never stated desire to return to May 2014 when DKs facerolled everything.

How is it that you have to ask what I think is fair? Do you spend all of your time looking up old DK videos and not even keeping up to what people have posted in this thread and others? Why are you even in the discussion? To make strawmen and remind us of what we already know?

Lefty Lucy says nothing that I dispute. He says nothing most of the posters who have commented on DKs will dispute. Classes should do things differently and not every class should be able to do everything.

BUT...

The game has changed and blurred a lot of the class distinction. In the video they said a NB shouldn't have a good heal - but every NB I fight in Cyrodiil has exactly that because of the new Vigor skill. Templars now have an execute. Sorcerers are a lot better at face-tanking because of the (new) uniqueness of hardened ward and the champion system. If you weren't so traumatized by DKs and actually looked at those old videos you would see none of these new post 1.6 changes, no NBs spamming vigor, no Templars,Jesus Beams, no anomalous sorcerer shields. While you insist on reminding everyone how broken the DK was because it could tank and kill, you have failed to see how in the past 6 months, sorcerers and NBs can kill, move, and tank via damage avoidance, I'm not saying nerf NB or Sorc. I am saying open your eyes, recognize that the game has changed, and old assumptions about the classes are obsolete.

In the eso panel video I posted King Richard shared a story that really sticks with me (which is why I agree with the current state of DK) he shared that in a conversation with one of the developers of the game, he asked about AP gains that lean toward groups rather than solo. He asked why a player in a group who kills one player gets more AP per kill then a player who kills 6 players in a 1vx scenario. He says that the developer response was that of shock that 1 player could possibly kill 6 players at once. This story is telling and illustrates that the developer never intended 1vx, they never intended small scale groups or solo players could kill larger groups yet alone take on whole zergs by themselves and win. Therefore its safe to assume that a player struggling to kill multiple opponents is indeed the game working as intended from the developer point of view.

As a player, especially one who likes small scale group or solo pvp/pve and duels, I think that ZoS has indeed been heavy handed in their manner of eliminating or at best weighing against 1vx. I think there is a sweet spot in the nerfs and where the game was in 2014, but I do not think the nerfs are specific to DK and to Templars. I think the changes to game mechanics have hit the less mobile classes harder, but only due to the fact that players through indirect means have found ways to circumvent these by kiting and creating situation that are more favorable for 1vx. Nightblade and Sorcs excel only in that they can quickly move away from harm (without a target ) to create space with a zerg or group. But this is not the game mechanics favoring nightblades and sorcs this is the player meta favoring mobility and stealth over standing your ground. Only in the player meta is DK or Templar for that matter gimped, but only in situations where the player needs to kite to survive. This then brings me to what Lefty Lucy was talking about.... no class should be good at everything, the tanky class shouldn't have the same escapablity of a nightblade, the nightblade shouldn't have the tanky utility of a DK or Templar and so on.

The real issue here is what is the sweet spot in the game mechanics that works for all classes. Do I think that 50% damage reduction is it, NO! Maybe closer to 35%. Do I think damage shield should be less effective, NO! Perhaps a rework of how damage is calculated against them. Do I think no stamina regen on blocking is fair, NO! Maybe 50% reduction accomplishes the task of stopping or deterring block casting. Do I think roll penalty helps the game, NO! Perhaps a 15% penalty does the trick without crippling non stamina players. Do I think healing should be cut in half, NO! Perhaps a rework of healing stacking or just a reduction to 25%. These are game mechanics that have hit all classes, not just DK or Templar, they are not specific to the DK class.

DKs never had mobility mate

Take flight 35m range, escape possibruuuuu, then speed pot and run like you have never run before lolol :>

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I guess he figured it out. ....

https://youtu.be/SgQDS0rJYUA

Everytime I watch a NA pvp clip I wonder if they only have suck nabs on these servers there....those enemies had like no f...clue what they were doing LOL.

He wouldnt have survived 10s on EU server xD Tho cant choose your targets I guess

Artemisshrikes wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

I've stuck with my DK through thick and thin since launch. Yes, the DK renaissance was good.

The whining, here on the forums, especially from the dark brotherhood / rouge role-players, have resulted in many excessive nerfs and have cost us much. The time of staying in the shadows and keeping quite, is over. I don't want to play FOTM builds and want to sick with my DK, but the continual nerfs make the class less viable and wanting to be effective in PvP pushes them into a very small niche role.


Some quick facts for people that struggle understanding class balance:

• DKs are un-mobile
• DKs are supposed to be in-your-face
• DKs have heavy DoTs & close range skills
• DKs have only one, pathetic, distance ability
• DKs have no class gap-closer
• DKs are supposed to be tanky
• DKs have reflect to defend against long range attacks
• DKs now have very little to benefit groups
• DKs have no realistic class execute
• DKs resource management concept is supposed to be based around ultimate generation and battle roar
• DKs are very limited in skill choice and builds to be effective

What nerfs is this DK on about? He's just QQing, right?

• too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed.
• get pulled off walls when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers? = Extended Chains - nerfed.
• ultimates deal too much damage to huggers? = Magma Shell - nerfed.
• shields return damage to your hugs? = Fragmented Shield - nerfed.
• wanting to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth/long range? = Reflect - nerfed.
• ultimates used too often against hippy huggers?* = Ultimate Generation via Crits - removed.
• countering shield stackers with close range abilities that ignore shields is too annoying? = Lava Whip - nerfed.
• get leaped to when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers from high walls? = Dragon Leap (an ultimate) - nerfed.
• too many DoTs? = Flames of Oblivion - nerfed.
• a support ability to increase group's damage? = Molten Weapons - nerfed.
• too much sustain and idiots can't kill 'top-level' DKs? = Dragon Blood - nerfed.
• close range DoTs hit too hard? = Unstable Flame & Burning Breath - switched to stamina.
• 20% dodge chance in a defensive fixed position too annoying? = Cinder Storm - nerfed.
• able to interrupt multiple people from range? = Eruption - nerfed.
• still too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed again.
• still too many ultimates used? = Ultimate costs - increased.
• looking for alternative ways to manage resources? = Werewolf's passive stamina regen & Vampires regen - nerfed.
• still want to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth? = Attacks from stealth now ignore reflect (and always crit)
• can't deal enough damage and kill DKs that reduce the cost of blocking? = Block - nerfed.

*yes i know another reason was healing springs spammers abused this for ultimate generation between fights


Other gripes:

• "Draw on your draconic blood to heal 33% of missing Health" should heal 33% of missing health and not 16%.
• too much damage to mindless yolo-ers charging into large AoE groups? Impulse = range nerfed. This dealt less damage than steel tornado and had the same range... but only impulse got nerfed. So now we have similar problems with a new generation of mindless drones spamming the same skill in large numbers. Fun and sporting gameplay? #SteelTornadoDrones #STDs #hashtag #imhipandrelevantbecauseiusehashtags

For those that will use the age-old 'perma-bats/banners' argument: DKs didn't create this problem nor did we exploit it (the minority that abused a 98% ultimate cost reduction were other classes too).

The backlash from our finest hour has been excessive in my opinion and has put us in a very dark place. Will the sun ever shine on our class again?

things you are wrong about
1.a good gab closer is critical rush
2.for tanks you can use extended chains and the pierce armor from 1 hand and shield,choking talons for tanking, defensive stance for tanking, coagulating blood for the tanks self heal,
3.to benefit groups they can use minor brutality
4. resources via ultimates +reduce block cost via champ points and armor + max resistence= new tanking
5. and many more things your wrong about

Alcast wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I guess he figured it out. ....

https://youtu.be/SgQDS0rJYUA

Everytime I watch a NA pvp clip I wonder if they only have suck nabs on these servers there....those enemies had like no f...clue what they were doing LOL.

He wouldnt have survived 10s on EU server xD Tho cant choose your targets I guess

Lol....I only posted this video....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SgQDS0rJYUA

Because someone else posted this video to show that DK'S are weak.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=74WGwlqMnPk

it's the same player, running the same build. The guys in the first video are scrubs, I'll give you that. But that is pvp...sometimes you go up against scrubs, sometimes you go up against vets, sometimes you get players in between. ..the point is that the class is fair and balanced now. Sometimes you wreck players, sometimes you get wrecked, the thing that shines through is the players skill, it not about picking a class with an inherent advantage in pvp. It's about knowing your class, knowing their strengths and weaknesses, and building your class accordingly. By the way, this clip is from a live stream in which he fought some better caliber players and achieved the same result.

I've given up being tanky on dk for this new dk bullseye build that someone else posted. I'm using a modified version without dragon scales. You can easily one shot people lol. With invis pots I'm like a ranged NB haha and it's loads of fun. Basically the concept revolves around using camo hunter with rally+molten weapons and bow heavy attacks. Buff with rally, camp hunter, molten then fully charge a heavy attack. Let loose the heavy with silver shards followed by animaton block cancel into another silver shards = 80k damage on vamps and ww. Insta gib. Agaisnt non vamps you hit for around 50k. I wiped a whole Zerg with this build comboed with terrain positioning and invis/immovabiltiy pots haha. Screw SNB. You can't 1vX people who know what thyre doing on a dk anymore. The new meta for 1vx is this new build rawr. The dk-NB.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm actually finding it hard to want to play as a true tank anymore, even on my DK. If you like pvp, or you like to be able to earn gold/AP/CP then tanking has never been where its at, and its only gotten less useful. I think their changes to the game are pretty flawed, and hopeful they see the light. Its just more efficient to get what youwant as a dps, its all about winnings over time, and a tank doesn't get many winnings over time when everyone gets a tanky buff 'just cuz'.

You have to diversify your playstyle. I have a custom set just for the last round of vet dsa. I have a solo.set to grind the cp and gold. Enough skill points to change my pvp ability selection. Don't sleep on the dk. Change up your sets with custom enchantment combos you would be surprised. Don't forget you can change your boon and re spec champion points if needed

jakeedmundson wrote: »

icontested wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm actually finding it hard to want to play as a true tank anymore, even on my DK. If you like pvp, or you like to be able to earn gold/AP/CP then tanking has never been where its at, and its only gotten less useful. I think their changes to the game are pretty flawed, and hopeful they see the light. Its just more efficient to get what youwant as a dps, its all about winnings over time, and a tank doesn't get many winnings over time when everyone gets a tanky buff 'just cuz'.

You have to diversify your playstyle. I have a custom set just for the last round of vet dsa. I have a solo.set to grind the cp and gold. Enough skill points to change my pvp ability selection. Don't sleep on the dk. Change up your sets with custom enchantment combos you would be surprised. Don't forget you can change your boon and re spec champion points if needed

Most people don't find it reasonable to need a full respec and complete gear change every time they want to go from group to solo.
Does dps do that? nope...
Do healers do that? nope...

They might change a couple skills around but that's about it.

The only exception is if you switch from pvp to pve (or vice versa). those are two different worlds and sometimes you need different styles/sets to be good.

I think I should clarify. I only respec champ points for vet dsa. By the Time you are running that if you don't have the gold or an efficient way of making gold then something is wrong.

Having Multiple sets is what I was really saying. Changing them is easy. I don't think its as exaggerated as you make it sound. Just so I know, are you a dk?

jakeedmundson wrote: »

icontested wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm actually finding it hard to want to play as a true tank anymore, even on my DK. If you like pvp, or you like to be able to earn gold/AP/CP then tanking has never been where its at, and its only gotten less useful. I think their changes to the game are pretty flawed, and hopeful they see the light. Its just more efficient to get what youwant as a dps, its all about winnings over time, and a tank doesn't get many winnings over time when everyone gets a tanky buff 'just cuz'.

You have to diversify your playstyle. I have a custom set just for the last round of vet dsa. I have a solo.set to grind the cp and gold. Enough skill points to change my pvp ability selection. Don't sleep on the dk. Change up your sets with custom enchantment combos you would be surprised. Don't forget you can change your boon and re spec champion points if needed

Most people don't find it reasonable to need a full respec and complete gear change every time they want to go from group to solo.
Does dps do that? nope...
Do healers do that? nope...

They might change a couple skills around but that's about it.

The only exception is if you switch from pvp to pve (or vice versa). those are two different worlds and sometimes you need different styles/sets to be good.

I think I should clarify. I only respec champ points f

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

icontested wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I'm actually finding it hard to want to play as a true tank anymore, even on my DK. If you like pvp, or you like to be able to earn gold/AP/CP then tanking has never been where its at, and its only gotten less useful. I think their changes to the game are pretty flawed, and hopeful they see the light. Its just more efficient to get what youwant as a dps, its all about winnings over time, and a tank doesn't get many winnings over time when everyone gets a tanky buff 'just cuz'.

You have to diversify your playstyle. I have a custom set just for the last round of vet dsa. I have a solo.set to grind the cp and gold. Enough skill points to change my pvp ability selection. Don't sleep on the dk. Change up your sets with custom enchantment combos you would be surprised. Don't forget you can change your boon and re spec champion points if needed

The issue isn't diversity, the issue is that as a Tank you are asked to give up too much. Like @jakeedmundson said after me, its not reasonable to ask one playstyle to pay through the nose to do his job. Who uses potions more than a tank? Who needs to change his build for pve, pvp, etc other than a tank? Lets get real for a moment here, the issue isn't l2p, the issue is they've flipped the rules of the game around so much that Tanking is an exercise in masochism now if you want to use the character for more than Trials/Dungeons. I don't want to have to respec attributes/skills/gear every time making the change. Other builds do not have this problem.

At first I wasn't happy I had to keep 3 different sets on me. Then I realized it takes two seconds to change inventory. You have to understand it is critical you master the game instead of the game mastering you.