R.I.P. DK

DlSTORTlON

I've stuck with my DK through thick and thin since launch. Yes, the DK renaissance was good.

The whining, here on the forums, especially from the dark brotherhood / rouge role-players, have resulted in many excessive nerfs and have cost us much. The time of staying in the shadows and keeping quite, is over. I don't want to play FOTM builds and want to sick with my DK, but the continual nerfs make the class less viable and wanting to be effective in PvP pushes them into a very small niche role.


Some quick facts for people that struggle understanding class balance:

• DKs are un-mobile
• DKs are supposed to be in-your-face
• DKs have heavy DoTs & close range skills
• DKs have only one, pathetic, distance ability
• DKs have no class gap-closer
• DKs are supposed to be tanky
• DKs have reflect to defend against long range attacks
• DKs now have very little to benefit groups
• DKs have no realistic class execute
• DKs resource management concept is supposed to be based around ultimate generation and battle roar
• DKs are very limited in skill choice and builds to be effective

What nerfs is this DK on about? He's just QQing, right?

• too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed.
• getting pulled off walls when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers? = Extended Chains - nerfed.
• ultimates deal too much damage to huggers? = Magma Shell - nerfed.
• shields return damage to your hugs? = Fragmented Shield - nerfed.
• wanting to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth/long range? = Reflect - nerfed.
• ultimates used too often against hippy huggers?* = Ultimate Generation via Crits - removed.
• countering shield stackers with close range abilities that ignore shields is too annoying? = Lava Whip - nerfed.
• get leaped to when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers from high walls? = Dragon Leap (an ultimate) - nerfed.
• too many DoTs? = Flames of Oblivion - nerfed.
• a support ability to increase group's damage? = Molten Weapons - nerfed.
• too much sustain and idiots can't kill 'top-level' DKs? = Dragon Blood - nerfed.
• close range DoTs hit too hard? = Unstable Flame & Burning Breath - switched to stamina.
• 20% dodge chance in a defensive fixed position too annoying? = Cinder Storm - nerfed.
• able to interrupt multiple people from range? = Eruption - nerfed.
• still too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed again.
• still too many ultimates used? = Ultimate costs - increased.
• looking for alternative ways to manage resources? = Werewolf's passive stamina regen & Vampires regen - nerfed.
• still want to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth? = Attacks from stealth now ignore reflect (and always crit)
• can't deal enough damage and kill DKs that reduce the cost of blocking? = Block - nerfed.

*yes i know another reason was healing springs spammers abused this for ultimate generation between fights


Other gripes:

• "Draw on your draconic blood to heal 33% of missing Health" should heal 33% of missing health and not 16%.
• too much damage to mindless yolo-ers charging into large AoE groups? Impulse = range nerfed. This dealt less damage than steel tornado and had the same range... but only impulse got nerfed. So now we have similar problems with a new generation of mindless drones spamming the same skill in large numbers. Fun and sporting gameplay? #SteelTornadoDrones #STDs #hashtag #imhipandrelevantbecauseiusehashtags

For those that will use the age-old 'perma-bats/banners' argument: DKs didn't create this problem nor did we exploit it (the minority that abused a 98% ultimate cost reduction were other classes too).

The backlash from our finest hour has been excessive in my opinion and has put us in a very dark place. Will the sun ever shine on our class again?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Dracane

I think DK is far from being R.I.P.
They are the hardest class to play when played right, have the highest DPS and can be super dangerous in pvp.
DK has the crown in 2 roles, tanking and DD. What more could a class ask for ?

Vangy

Dks still have excellent tankiness via class abilities. Its just our offense that got nerfed to the ground sadly. Just ride the WB train until zeni decides to fix us.

DlSTORTlON

Dracane wrote: »

I think DK is far from being R.I.P.
They are the hardest class to play when played right, have the highest DPS and can be super dangerous in pvp.
DK has the crown in 2 roles, tanking and DD. What more could a class ask for ?

If you have 750+ CPs. sure. Didnt think you're a PvEer. DK DD is mainly via DoTs. What's the point if they can be removed so easily in PvP?

I guess a class could ask for an execute, gap closer (like every other) & if we're to remain un-mobile we need to stop being nerfed for idiots that want an 'i win button' against a class that can't escape too well.

dodgehopper_ESO

I would argue that templar has the same issues and more broken skills, now and over its history. Templar has never had aglory day, apart from the healing role, and sadly a lot of out of class abilities are better choices. Playing templar warrior build, either as tank or dps just is not what it use to be. I feel your pain, but honestly i find dk still very easy to play, and vastly more synergistic with its abilities. Before anyone mentions the laserbeam, consider that we lost a tank ability to get it, one that was a deeply flawed analog of blur/cinders. As the warrior spec of templar i am more unhappy with the developments templar had gone through than any other class.

Alucardo

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that templar has the same issues and more broken skills, now and over its history. Templar has never had aglory day, apart from the healing role, and sadly a lot of out of class abilities are better choices. Playing templar warrior build, either as tank or dps just is not what it use to be. I feel your pain, but honestly i find dk still very easy to play, and vastly more synergistic with its abilities. Before anyone mentions the laserbeam, consider that we lost a tank ability to get it, one that was a deeply flawed analog of blur/cinders. As the warrior spec of templar i am more unhappy with the developments templar had gone through than any other class.

Why is it every time a DK makes a post to bring up the negative points of their class, a Templar decides to chime in? Please keep the focus on DK only here.

Thanks.

MudcrabsRus

Stam DK lives on, but R.I.P to the once proud magicka DK.

Alucardo

Dracane wrote: »

What more could a class ask for ?

A class execute, gap closer and the ability to DPS without spamming WB. Like @Vangy said, it's mostly the offensive side lacking.

CP5

I agree dk's got a lot of nerfs over the course of the game, but on that list many of those things were flat out broken or easy to exploit.

mklundub17_ESO

Alucardo wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that templar has the same issues and more broken skills, now and over its history. Templar has never had aglory day, apart from the healing role, and sadly a lot of out of class abilities are better choices. Playing templar warrior build, either as tank or dps just is not what it use to be. I feel your pain, but honestly i find dk still very easy to play, and vastly more synergistic with its abilities. Before anyone mentions the laserbeam, consider that we lost a tank ability to get it, one that was a deeply flawed analog of blur/cinders. As the warrior spec of templar i am more unhappy with the developments templar had gone through than any other class.

Why is it every time a DK makes a post to bring up the negative points of their class, a Templar decides to chime in? Please keep the focus on DK only here.

Thanks.

So only DK's are allowed to QQ? The reason it's always brought up is because both classes are in the same boat. If they're going to address issues with one class, address issues with both.

Armitas

After 17 pages of feedback in another thread ZOS has decided to make "adjustments" and "tweaks" to our class two updates from now.... So hopefully by the third update they will actually do something. Amazing... Did I say amazing?...What I I meant to say was "Astonishing".

Tankqull

Alucardo wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that templar has the same issues and more broken skills, now and over its history. Templar has never had aglory day, apart from the healing role, and sadly a lot of out of class abilities are better choices. Playing templar warrior build, either as tank or dps just is not what it use to be. I feel your pain, but honestly i find dk still very easy to play, and vastly more synergistic with its abilities. Before anyone mentions the laserbeam, consider that we lost a tank ability to get it, one that was a deeply flawed analog of blur/cinders. As the warrior spec of templar i am more unhappy with the developments templar had gone through than any other class.

Why is it every time a DK makes a post to bring up the negative points of their class, a Templar decides to chime in? Please keep the focus on DK only here.

Thanks.

because Dks remain the strongest class in a lot of aspects of this game.
sure dks have flaws, but guess what the other classes do have them aswell.
you fellow dks are just completly illusionated by the 1.5 times where dks have been not only over the top of all other classes but from an entire own galaxy.

Alucardo

mklundub17_ESO wrote: »

So only DK's are allowed to QQ? The reason it's always brought up is because both classes are in the same boat. If they're going to address issues with one class, address issues with both.

Of course not. Create your own thread with a detailed list like the OP did here. Don't derail his thread about another class.

Mr_Nobody

Alucardo wrote: »

mklundub17_ESO wrote: »

So only DK's are allowed to QQ? The reason it's always brought up is because both classes are in the same boat. If they're going to address issues with one class, address issues with both.

Of course not. Create your own thread with a detailed list like the OP did here. Don't derail his thread about another class.

Zos does not reply to Templar threads. Not even one since June/July. Except the one when Templars were *once again* OP during PTS. Thats why we jump in and shed our tears. Lol.

AfkNinja

Alucardo wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that templar has the same issues and more broken skills, now and over its history. Templar has never had aglory day, apart from the healing role, and sadly a lot of out of class abilities are better choices. Playing templar warrior build, either as tank or dps just is not what it use to be. I feel your pain, but honestly i find dk still very easy to play, and vastly more synergistic with its abilities. Before anyone mentions the laserbeam, consider that we lost a tank ability to get it, one that was a deeply flawed analog of blur/cinders. As the warrior spec of templar i am more unhappy with the developments templar had gone through than any other class.

Why is it every time a DK makes a post to bring up the negative points of their class, a Templar decides to chime in? Please keep the focus on DK only here.

Thanks.

Why is it every time a Templar makes a thread trying to draw attention to our flaws Dragon Knights jump on the bandwagon too? It's because both of us are in a bad position and we both deserve and NEED tweaks. If we combine our voices we both get louder, let's push for change together and no need to get salty.

RAGUNAnoOne

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

mklundub17_ESO wrote: »

So only DK's are allowed to QQ? The reason it's always brought up is because both classes are in the same boat. If they're going to address issues with one class, address issues with both.

Of course not. Create your own thread with a detailed list like the OP did here. Don't derail his thread about another class.

Zos does not reply to Templar threads. Not even one since June/July. Except the one when Templars were *once again* OP during PTS. Thats why we jump in and shed our tears. Lol.

So that is what nerf hammers are really made from, human tears!

Cadbury

I could have sworn I saw a thread just like this before. Must be Deja vu.

Personofsecrets

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler

danny2096

Just saying this but, templars have radiant destruction, which hits for 12k damage over and over and over again, and thats to me with just blocking, then nightblades now have the move whIch if they hit 4 consecutive light attacks which thats if the opposing player is blocking or not they get some god almighty hit, then the sorcs, they have shields and crystal frags, i 150% agree with @DISTORTION because DK's can give a big hit, and people saying were tank, then tell me what would happen if any of the other classes wore all heavy armour and out all of their points into health or half of their points into it, because im telling you, from then on out you would be a tank so there's no way you can say dk's are OP because if youse was the exact same armour and health youse would be the exact same except we would have anywhere near the damage youse could pull of...

Rayste

Dracane wrote: »

I think DK is far from being R.I.P.
They are the hardest class to play when played right, have the highest DPS and can be super dangerous in pvp.
DK has the crown in 2 roles, tanking and DD. What more could a class ask for ?

Agreed. DK was so far ahead of the other classes that even now they reign supreme at resource management. A good stam DK is absolutely brutal and possibly the best 1v1 build available. OP wants to be super FOTM again methinks.

Dracane

Rayste wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I think DK is far from being R.I.P.
They are the hardest class to play when played right, have the highest DPS and can be super dangerous in pvp.
DK has the crown in 2 roles, tanking and DD. What more could a class ask for ?

Agreed. DK was so far ahead of the other classes that even now they reign supreme at resource management. A good stam DK is absolutely brutal and possibly the best 1v1 build available. OP wants to be super FOTM again methinks.

Right.
I don't think DK needs anything. As I said, they are the most superior class in 2/3 rolls and very strong in pvp. (People saying Magicka NB is bad needs to get some lessons)

hardcore_gmr

These are the kinds of post that make it hard to take legitimate player concerns seriously. Of all the incoherent misguided ramblings that have come across this forum in the last few updates...this one is by far the most nonsensical. I honestly feel bad for OP because it's clear he liked the class at some point. ...but this is too much...I can't even! Best advice I can give, from a DK player from day 1, pick a new class...or find a new game...both are better options then this post

Sublime

While all those nerfs certainly hit the DK very hard, I don't think either of them is the final cause for the DK's death. Instead, I think we rather have to look at the TTK changes of 1.7 and it's effect on gameplay.

The TTK obviously increased with the last patch, especially for non-burst builds. For the DK, which can't use burst builds due to it's immobile nature (same goes for Templar btw, even though the effect is different), this means that it get incredibly hard to kill anything. Now as some already mentioned, the defensive aspect didn't suffer too much from the TTK changes, in my eyes they actually improved because it's now easier to sustain until the next Bats. Meaning that it is not possible to make a build that is sustainable enough for solo gameplay, while also dealing enough damage to kill an enemy.

However, if you think about it, that's the way it is supposed to be, since the DK should not solely rely on DPS and tankiness, but rather on supreme ressource management, enabling him to run his enemies out of Stamina or Magicka. Unfortunately, the Champion Point System and the removal of the softcaps provided everybody with infinite ressources, ultimatively resulting in the destruction of the Dragonknights original class concept.

(I'm going to save the Templar's part for a corresponding thread )

danny2096

well now we have no self heal, every one of our moves have been nerfed to total no damage and no big burst damage definitely and we have no sheild or any way to get out of a battle, we have no stuns we have 1 move to trap other players for 4 seconds max which that mostly never happens because they just break out and also they only work 20% of the time, i can waste 15k magic being stood right next to them and only 1 talons will hit its broken...

Dracane

Sublime wrote: »

While all those nerfs certainly hit the DK very hard, I don't think either of them is the final cause for the DK's death. Instead, I think we rather have to look at the TTK changes of 1.7 and it's effect on gameplay.

The TTK obviously increased with the last patch, especially for non-burst builds. For the DK, which can't use burst builds due to it's immobile nature (same goes for Templar btw, even though the effect is different), this means that it get incredibly hard to kill anything. Now as some already mentioned, the defensive aspect didn't suffer too much from the TTK changes, in my eyes they actually improved because it's now easier to sustain until the next Bats. Meaning that it is not possible to make a build that is sustainable enough for solo gameplay, while also dealing enough damage to kill an enemy.

However, if you think about it, that's the way it is supposed to be, since the DK should not solely rely on DPS and tankiness, but rather on supreme ressource management, enabling him to run his enemies out of Stamina or Magicka. Unfortunately, the Champion Point System and the removal of the softcaps provided everybody with infinite ressources, ultimatively resulting in the destruction of the Dragonknights original class concept.

(I'm going to save the Templar's part for a corresponding thread )

Good write up. However, I can't agree that Dragonknight is not able to burst down enemies.
It's obvious that a tank build can't and shouldn't be able to do that. But a DK build for dealing damage CAN and will destroy things fast.

My boyfriend is a stamina DK and omg, nobody puts so much pressure on me. He only uses heavy attack weaving and flying blade and not even my Overload spam can out damage what he does by doing this simple thing.
And the activation of burst for DKs is based on using some surprise. Wait for your enemy to go offensive, then dragon jump and spam all your damage. Just like Sorcerers, you need to time your burst and then it will be devasating.

danny2096

Good write up. However, I can't agree that Dragonknight is not able to burst down enemies.
It's obvious that a tank build can't and shouldn't be able to do that. But a DK build for dealing damage CAN and will destroy things fast.

My boyfriend is a stamina DK and omg, nobody puts so much pressure on me. He only uses heavy attack weaving and flying blade and not even my Overload spam can out damage what he does by doing this simple thing.
And the activation of burst for DKs is based on using some surprise. Wait for your enemy to go offensive, then dragon jump and spam all your damage. Just like Sorcerers, you need to time your burst and then it will be devasating.

[/quote]
if your blyfriends putting pressure on you and hitting you with heavys i would be aware of that...

Sublime

Dracane wrote: »

Good write up. However, I can't agree that Dragonknight is not able to burst down enemies.
It's obvious that a tank build can't and shouldn't be able to do that. But a DK build for dealing damage CAN and will destroy things fast.

My boyfriend is a stamina DK and omg, nobody puts so much pressure on me. He only uses heavy attack weaving and flying blade and not even my Overload spam can out damage what he does by doing this simple thing.
And the activation of burst for DKs is based on using some surprise. Wait for your enemy to go offensive, then dragon jump and spam all your damage. Just like Sorcerers, you need to time your burst and then it will be devasating.

You're referring to a Stamina DK, however, the following quote makes me think that, despite not being said specificly, this thread is about Magicka DK's.

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

• close range DoTs hit too hard? = Unstable Flame & Burning Breath - switched to stamina.

MrGrimey

Lol, DKs are crying that their class is not op anymore, even though it is one of the best pvp classes and the best at 1v1... Templars were never good

Artemisshrikes

I don't agree I really like the DK and I do sooo much damage have 18k health 19k stamina wep damage 3k

Lexxypwns

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that templar has the same issues and more broken skills, now and over its history. Templar has never had aglory day, apart from the healing role, and sadly a lot of out of class abilities are better choices. Playing templar warrior build, either as tank or dps just is not what it use to be. I feel your pain, but honestly i find dk still very easy to play, and vastly more synergistic with its abilities. Before anyone mentions the laserbeam, consider that we lost a tank ability to get it, one that was a deeply flawed analog of blur/cinders. As the warrior spec of templar i am more unhappy with the developments templar had gone through than any other class.

Templar never had its day? Templars had the most OP skill that ever existed in ESO, it just so happens that ZoS removed it before people realized how good Blinding Flashes was and got rid of it. Honestly, if people weren't so vocal about DK's being OP maybe more people would have played templar and used blinding flashes

It isn't a coincidence that most of the scariest players in 1.4/1.5 were templars

Artemisshrikes

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

I've stuck with my DK through thick and thin since launch. Yes, the DK renaissance was good.

The whining, here on the forums, especially from the dark brotherhood / rouge role-players, have resulted in many excessive nerfs and have cost us much. The time of staying in the shadows and keeping quite, is over. I don't want to play FOTM builds and want to sick with my DK, but the continual nerfs make the class less viable and wanting to be effective in PvP pushes them into a very small niche role.


Some quick facts for people that struggle understanding class balance:

• DKs are un-mobile
• DKs are supposed to be in-your-face
• DKs have heavy DoTs & close range skills
• DKs have only one, pathetic, distance ability
• DKs have no class gap-closer
• DKs are supposed to be tanky
• DKs have reflect to defend against long range attacks
• DKs now have very little to benefit groups
• DKs have no realistic class execute
• DKs resource management concept is supposed to be based around ultimate generation and battle roar
• DKs are very limited in skill choice and builds to be effective

What nerfs is this DK on about? He's just QQing, right?

• too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed.
• get pulled off walls when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers? = Extended Chains - nerfed.
• ultimates deal too much damage to huggers? = Magma Shell - nerfed.
• shields return damage to your hugs? = Fragmented Shield - nerfed.
• wanting to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth/long range? = Reflect - nerfed.
• ultimates used too often against hippy huggers?* = Ultimate Generation via Crits - removed.
• countering shield stackers with close range abilities that ignore shields is too annoying? = Lava Whip - nerfed.
• get leaped to when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers from high walls? = Dragon Leap (an ultimate) - nerfed.
• too many DoTs? = Flames of Oblivion - nerfed.
• a support ability to increase group's damage? = Molten Weapons - nerfed.
• too much sustain and idiots can't kill 'top-level' DKs? = Dragon Blood - nerfed.
• close range DoTs hit too hard? = Unstable Flame & Burning Breath - switched to stamina.
• 20% dodge chance in a defensive fixed position too annoying? = Cinder Storm - nerfed.
• able to interrupt multiple people from range? = Eruption - nerfed.
• still too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed again.
• still too many ultimates used? = Ultimate costs - increased.
• looking for alternative ways to manage resources? = Werewolf's passive stamina regen & Vampires regen - nerfed.
• still want to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth? = Attacks from stealth now ignore reflect (and always crit)
• can't deal enough damage and kill DKs that reduce the cost of blocking? = Block - nerfed.

*yes i know another reason was healing springs spammers abused this for ultimate generation between fights


Other gripes:

• "Draw on your draconic blood to heal 33% of missing Health" should heal 33% of missing health and not 16%.
• too much damage to mindless yolo-ers charging into large AoE groups? Impulse = range nerfed. This dealt less damage than steel tornado and had the same range... but only impulse got nerfed. So now we have similar problems with a new generation of mindless drones spamming the same skill in large numbers. Fun and sporting gameplay? #SteelTornadoDrones #STDs #hashtag #imhipandrelevantbecauseiusehashtags

For those that will use the age-old 'perma-bats/banners' argument: DKs didn't create this problem nor did we exploit it (the minority that abused a 98% ultimate cost reduction were other classes too).

The backlash from our finest hour has been excessive in my opinion and has put us in a very dark place. Will the sun ever shine on our class again?

things you are wrong about
1.a good gab closer is critical rush
2.for tanks you can use extended chains and the pierce armor from 1 hand and shield,choking talons for tanking, defensive stance for tanking, coagulating blood for the tanks self heal,
3.to benefit groups they can use minor brutality
4. resources via ultimates +reduce block cost via champ points and armor + max resistence= new tanking
5. and many more things your wrong about