R.I.P. DK

MattyMatty

The problem is specifically in PvP. A lot of people find the options for stamina based classes in PvP limited to only using skills that come from weapons/armor/world/guild/alliance skill trees. The actual useful class skills for a dragon knight in PVP are actually limited, because game mechanics mean "Dots" aren't that good, as they can be removed. and close quarter fighting (most DK abilities and weapon abilities are short range) is difficult for the class because it doesnt have any natural speed boost skills, or "good" ways to "Gap Close"

That is what I am wondering/asking about - I never said the word Tank in that post!
I am wanting to know the different thoughts\opinions on PvP class that aren't so limited and are good and fun and effective in PvP, not talking about the purely tanking option here

DaveMoeDee

MattyMatty wrote: »

..... Ooookay. So if that is your recommendation then why are you posting on the official eso forums !!!??

Plus for the small time I have had this game I have really enjoyed it - I am just trying to get up to speed as much as possible on the DK situation - to be DK or not to be DK thatis the Hamlet Question?!!

You recommendation was useless as I am capable of deciding for myself when to not bother with a game thankyou...

Most of your disappointments will be here in the forum reading comments like that.

If you are emotionally invested in 1v1 or leaderboards, you can fall into the balance rabbit hole as some have. This is especially true if you need to justify your poor performance. If you aren't like that, I think the game is a blast.

DaveMoeDee

MattyMatty wrote: »

So if not DK - what are the better, less limited classes to develop for PvP

I have no problem with the PvE environment even when it is a challenge but I want a class build that is good and varied enough to make PvP possible and fun

Develop all 4. If you put all your eggs in one basket, you might end up ranting here after the next update.

If you want to future proof your characters, make 8 -- a stam race and a magicka race for each class. Since my DK is Imperial, it works out okay if I switch from magicka based to stamina based. Not all races are so flexible so some end up advocating for their particular build.

Do you see yourself doing a lot of 1v1 type PvP? If not, any class is fun in a group.

MattyMatty

Oh FFS

Another post that doesn't answer my simple question - and I have not even joined leaderboards or played PvP yet, I am wanting to play PvE for a while and develop a build that will be right for PvP and my simple question is this .......

If DK is limited as pointed out to me a few posts ago which I quoted (and thankyou for the info) then what is the races\classes that are not so limited for PvP and can be a realistic option, challenging but more varied and fun other than DK???

Oh and DaveMoeDee ................. go sit on a cactus

Alcast

MattyMatty wrote: »

Oh FFS

Another post that doesn't answer my simple question - and I have not even joined leaderboards or played PvP yet, I am wanting to play PvE for a while and develop a build that will be right for PvP and my simple question is this .......

If DK is limited as pointed out to me a few posts ago which I quoted (and thankyou for the info) then what is the races\classes that are not so limited for PvP and can be a realistic option, challenging but more varied and fun other than DK???

Oh and DaveMoeDee ................. go sit on a cactus

Imperial is always a good choice. You can both go Stam or Magicka with this Race

MattyMatty

Cheers Alcast appreciated

jakeedmundson

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

MattyMatty wrote: »

So if not DK - what are the better, less limited classes to develop for PvP

I have no problem with the PvE environment even when it is a challenge but I want a class build that is good and varied enough to make PvP possible and fun

Develop all 4. If you put all your eggs in one basket, you might end up ranting here after the next update.

If you want to future proof your characters, make 8 -- a stam race and a magicka race for each class. Since my DK is Imperial, it works out okay if I switch from magicka based to stamina based. Not all races are so flexible so some end up advocating for their particular build.

Do you see yourself doing a lot of 1v1 type PvP? If not, any class is fun in a group.

Just gonna throw this out there.... only a small percentage of people have time to play and level more than 1-2 characters.
the game has to be fairly well balanced because 75% of the player base can't just... switch to the good class after a bad update.

So if you were unfortunate enough to pick and level only a DK or only a templar, etc.... you're going to run into trouble with balance when they change skills, stats, and gear.

AfkNinja

Vangy wrote: »

You know what reallllly peeves me in this post? It's that every time I see a buff dk post there HAS to be some QQ Templar coming in to say oh Templars are weaker than u guys blah blah. Start your own buff templar threads pls and Dont derail our dk threads

We do, and if you knew anything about Templars you would know ZOS IGNORES these threads and sinks them. If you read these threads you would also notice a lot of Dragonknights come in them to "QQ" as you put it just like you insulted Templar's for. Both Templar and DK need adjustments and honestly 2 classes crying for help together are more likely to get changes done. Dragon Knight's should be joining with Templar's to force change as we are rather similar. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Alcast

jakeedmundson wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

MattyMatty wrote: »

So if not DK - what are the better, less limited classes to develop for PvP

I have no problem with the PvE environment even when it is a challenge but I want a class build that is good and varied enough to make PvP possible and fun

Develop all 4. If you put all your eggs in one basket, you might end up ranting here after the next update.

If you want to future proof your characters, make 8 -- a stam race and a magicka race for each class. Since my DK is Imperial, it works out okay if I switch from magicka based to stamina based. Not all races are so flexible so some end up advocating for their particular build.

Do you see yourself doing a lot of 1v1 type PvP? If not, any class is fun in a group.

Just gonna throw this out there.... only a small percentage of people have time to play and level more than 1-2 characters.
the game has to be fairly well balanced because 75% of the player base can't just... switch to the good class after a bad update.

So if you were unfortunate enough to pick and level only a DK or only a templar, etc.... you're going to run into trouble with balance when they change skills, stats, and gear.

Stamina DK always performed extremly well in PvE AND PvP. its just an issue of how creative you are with your builds usually.

And here is stam templar DD build:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/jabsmania-templar-stamina-dd-build-for-update-1-6/

jakeedmundson

Alcast wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

MattyMatty wrote: »

So if not DK - what are the better, less limited classes to develop for PvP

I have no problem with the PvE environment even when it is a challenge but I want a class build that is good and varied enough to make PvP possible and fun

Develop all 4. If you put all your eggs in one basket, you might end up ranting here after the next update.

If you want to future proof your characters, make 8 -- a stam race and a magicka race for each class. Since my DK is Imperial, it works out okay if I switch from magicka based to stamina based. Not all races are so flexible so some end up advocating for their particular build.

Do you see yourself doing a lot of 1v1 type PvP? If not, any class is fun in a group.

Just gonna throw this out there.... only a small percentage of people have time to play and level more than 1-2 characters.
the game has to be fairly well balanced because 75% of the player base can't just... switch to the good class after a bad update.

So if you were unfortunate enough to pick and level only a DK or only a templar, etc.... you're going to run into trouble with balance when they change skills, stats, and gear.

Stamina DK always performed extremly well in PvE AND PvP. its just an issue of how creative you are with your builds usually.

And here is stam templar DD build:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/jabsmania-templar-stamina-dd-build-for-update-1-6/

I don't really have many problems with dps building... its just tanking that i can't do/no longer enjoy

But i have 2 questions... how in the 4311 do you get over 4k weapon damage and almost 40k stamina
I only have about 100 CP... i'm guessing that has a lot to do with it.
I can only get around 2400 weapon damage and about 25k stamina with a similar build using hundings rage and nightmothers sets. ( i don't have the agility set yet)

LameoveR

OP you made me

Alcast

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

MattyMatty wrote: »

So if not DK - what are the better, less limited classes to develop for PvP

I have no problem with the PvE environment even when it is a challenge but I want a class build that is good and varied enough to make PvP possible and fun

Develop all 4. If you put all your eggs in one basket, you might end up ranting here after the next update.

If you want to future proof your characters, make 8 -- a stam race and a magicka race for each class. Since my DK is Imperial, it works out okay if I switch from magicka based to stamina based. Not all races are so flexible so some end up advocating for their particular build.

Do you see yourself doing a lot of 1v1 type PvP? If not, any class is fun in a group.

Just gonna throw this out there.... only a small percentage of people have time to play and level more than 1-2 characters.
the game has to be fairly well balanced because 75% of the player base can't just... switch to the good class after a bad update.

So if you were unfortunate enough to pick and level only a DK or only a templar, etc.... you're going to run into trouble with balance when they change skills, stats, and gear.

Stamina DK always performed extremly well in PvE AND PvP. its just an issue of how creative you are with your builds usually.

And here is stam templar DD build:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/jabsmania-templar-stamina-dd-build-for-update-1-6/

I don't really have many problems with dps building... its just tanking that i can't do/no longer enjoy

But i have 2 questions... how in the 4311 do you get over 4k weapon damage and almost 40k stamina
I only have about 100 CP... i'm guessing that has a lot to do with it.
I can only get around 2400 weapon damage and about 25k stamina with a similar build using hundings rage and nightmothers sets. ( i don't have the agility set yet)

I am at 550 CP. Basically every CP point give you 10-15 points into resources. All v16 Legendary gear. + Bufffood+Redguard 10% Inc Stam. + 6% Undaunted inc resources

For weap dmg: Medium armor passive increases weap dmg by 12% and Flawless dawnbreaker gives another 8% inc weap dmg

hardcore_gmr

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

Bashev

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

I bet that you dont play a DK. Your whole post sounds as DK were OP before they deserve to be the worst class now.
Evey class has a jail free card. Temps - BoL, Sors - Escape with ward, NB - shadow cloak and image. On top of that all DK skills are mele range. Without blocking you cannot stay in range and do DPS cause when you drop in health you cannot escape and you cannot heal yourself. What you gonna do? I know the answer - you gonna die.

hardcore_gmr

Bashev wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

I bet that you dont play a DK. Your whole post sounds as DK were OP before they deserve to be the worst class now.
Evey class has a jail free card. Temps - BoL, Sors - Escape with ward, NB - shadow cloak and image. On top of that all DK skills are mele range. Without blocking you cannot stay in range and do DPS cause when you drop in health you cannot escape and you cannot heal yourself. What you gonna do? I know the answer - you gonna die.

Actually I have played dk since release, magic and stamina. You can certainly block as a magic dk, all they changed was stamina regeneration while blocking. So you can definitely block and stay in dps range. Meanwhile you can pop igneous shield for damage mitigation, ultimate regen, along with 5% weapon damage from mountain blessing, and restore stamina with helping hand. All from using one skill, add that with the amazing CC and AoE damage of Eruption followed by spammable talons, and the last thing anyone wants to do is get into melee range with the class that excels at close range combat. Yes, magic dk's were super strong prior to 1.6, so strong that our natural utility allowed even the weakest DK to be nigh immortal, and if you actually knew what you were doing then yes....you were completely OP. It took multiple players to bring you down because no class could keep up with a class whose burst heal+damage shield combined could take you from near death to full health in less than a second. You can still get a glimpse of the old DK and what these "dk is dead" guys are longing for in pve...pop igneous shield then GDB at less than 30% health....you'll be back to full health in light armor. And you didn't give up your mobility like templars do for the same caliber heal (sorcs and nightblades don't have anything close to pulling that off).

Your post is exactly what I mean when I say old DK are longing for days when we stood atop pvp charts because our natural abilities (when left unchecked) gave us a huge advantage over everyone else. Yes we needed a nerf...not because of the average DK, but because the elite players who owned simply becuase they knew what they were doing and had access to skills that could not be matched. Now other classes are in our league and it's players like you who can only focus on "the good Ole days". I'd rather focus on working on a new build to make my skills shine.

Bashev

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

I bet that you dont play a DK. Your whole post sounds as DK were OP before they deserve to be the worst class now.
Evey class has a jail free card. Temps - BoL, Sors - Escape with ward, NB - shadow cloak and image. On top of that all DK skills are mele range. Without blocking you cannot stay in range and do DPS cause when you drop in health you cannot escape and you cannot heal yourself. What you gonna do? I know the answer - you gonna die.

Actually I have played dk since release, magic and stamina. You can certainly block as a magic dk, all they changed was stamina regeneration while blocking. So you can definitely block and stay in dps range. Meanwhile you can pop igneous shield for damage mitigation, ultimate regen, along with 5% weapon damage from mountain blessing, and restore stamina with helping hand. All from using one skill, add that with the amazing CC and AoE damage of Eruption followed by spammable talons, and the last thing anyone wants to do is get into melee range with the class that excels at close range combat. Yes, magic dk's were super strong prior to 1.6, so strong that our natural utility allowed even the weakest DK to be nigh immortal, and if you actually knew what you were doing then yes....you were completely OP. It took multiple players to bring you down because no class could keep up with a class whose burst heal+damage shield combined could take you from near death to full health in less than a second. You can still get a glimpse of the old DK and what these "dk is dead" guys are longing for in pve...pop igneous shield then GDB at less than 30% health....you'll be back to full health in light armor. And you didn't give up your mobility like templars do for the same caliber heal (sorcs and nightblades don't have anything close to pulling that off).

Your post is exactly what I mean when I say old DK are longing for days when we stood atop pvp charts because our natural abilities (when left unchecked) gave us a huge advantage over everyone else. Yes we needed a nerf...not because of the average DK, but because the elite players who owned simply becuase they knew what they were doing and had access to skills that could not be matched. Now other classes are in our league and it's players like you who can only focus on "the good Ole days". I'd rather focus on working on a new build to make my skills shine.

And what class did you reroll?

hardcore_gmr

Bashev wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

I bet that you dont play a DK. Your whole post sounds as DK were OP before they deserve to be the worst class now.
Evey class has a jail free card. Temps - BoL, Sors - Escape with ward, NB - shadow cloak and image. On top of that all DK skills are mele range. Without blocking you cannot stay in range and do DPS cause when you drop in health you cannot escape and you cannot heal yourself. What you gonna do? I know the answer - you gonna die.

Actually I have played dk since release, magic and stamina. You can certainly block as a magic dk, all they changed was stamina regeneration while blocking. So you can definitely block and stay in dps range. Meanwhile you can pop igneous shield for damage mitigation, ultimate regen, along with 5% weapon damage from mountain blessing, and restore stamina with helping hand. All from using one skill, add that with the amazing CC and AoE damage of Eruption followed by spammable talons, and the last thing anyone wants to do is get into melee range with the class that excels at close range combat. Yes, magic dk's were super strong prior to 1.6, so strong that our natural utility allowed even the weakest DK to be nigh immortal, and if you actually knew what you were doing then yes....you were completely OP. It took multiple players to bring you down because no class could keep up with a class whose burst heal+damage shield combined could take you from near death to full health in less than a second. You can still get a glimpse of the old DK and what these "dk is dead" guys are longing for in pve...pop igneous shield then GDB at less than 30% health....you'll be back to full health in light armor. And you didn't give up your mobility like templars do for the same caliber heal (sorcs and nightblades don't have anything close to pulling that off).

Your post is exactly what I mean when I say old DK are longing for days when we stood atop pvp charts because our natural abilities (when left unchecked) gave us a huge advantage over everyone else. Yes we needed a nerf...not because of the average DK, but because the elite players who owned simply becuase they knew what they were doing and had access to skills that could not be matched. Now other classes are in our league and it's players like you who can only focus on "the good Ole days". I'd rather focus on working on a new build to make my skills shine.

And what class did you reroll?

I am still DK, stam and magic. I play my stamina DK more simply because I like the utility of having magic based defensive class skills and the dps of stamina. My magic DK does require that I get better VR16 gear, but I am working on an light armor master build for for that character so it's not worth it to go into too much pvp until I can run solo, because I prefer to play that way. I already had a Nightblade and sorc, neither are characters that I play to often except when I play in groups with people I know from the other factions.

Zinaroth

DKs have their own gap closer, it's called Chains, whether it pulls the target to you or pull you to the target is irrelevant when determining if it's a gap closer or not, just saying.

hardcore_gmr

Zinaroth wrote: »

DKs have their own gap closer, it's called Chains, whether it pulls the target to you or pull you to the target is irrelevant when determining if it's a gap closer or not, just saying.

It's a poor gap closer because you want either to go to the group or to bring one from the group to you. When I use a gap closer I want to go to the group, I hate that it isolates one person unless they are CC immune, then it pulls you to them. It offers poor damage in relation to other gap closers as well. The fact that it grants enemies CC immunity is just the icing on the cake. The game does not consider chains a gap closer, it views it as a tank cc. People who say that chains is a gap closer fail to see that chains is a form of cc not a way to close the distance on an enemy.

Armitas

These things are so much better on the pvp forums, generic forums on PvP will make blood shoot out of your eyes. Only problem is the PvP forums are nearly a no-go zone for ZOS

Alucardo

Zinaroth wrote: »

DKs have their own gap closer, it's called Chains, whether it pulls the target to you or pull you to the target is irrelevant when determining if it's a gap closer or not, just saying.

If that's our gap closer, then I guess Molten Armaments is our execute? Wow, you just basically inadvertently described why the DK class needs fixing. Bravo!

dodgehopper_ESO

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

DKs have their own gap closer, it's called Chains, whether it pulls the target to you or pull you to the target is irrelevant when determining if it's a gap closer or not, just saying.

It's a poor gap closer because you want either to go to the group or to bring one from the group to you. When I use a gap closer I want to go to the group, I hate that it isolates one person unless they are CC immune, then it pulls you to them. It offers poor damage in relation to other gap closers as well. The fact that it grants enemies CC immunity is just the icing on the cake. The game does not consider chains a gap closer, it views it as a tank cc. People who say that chains is a gap closer fail to see that chains is a form of cc not a way to close the distance on an enemy.

True, then again DK's have more CC than anyone. I dream of the day my Templar has a Spear Shard that can aoe cc in its tiny confines. Not every Templar wants their character to be a healer, and like the DK our class is being pushed further away from warrior/tank mode into healer mode. Tanking has been trashed in this last patch.

hardcore_gmr

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

DKs have their own gap closer, it's called Chains, whether it pulls the target to you or pull you to the target is irrelevant when determining if it's a gap closer or not, just saying.

It's a poor gap closer because you want either to go to the group or to bring one from the group to you. When I use a gap closer I want to go to the group, I hate that it isolates one person unless they are CC immune, then it pulls you to them. It offers poor damage in relation to other gap closers as well. The fact that it grants enemies CC immunity is just the icing on the cake. The game does not consider chains a gap closer, it views it as a tank cc. People who say that chains is a gap closer fail to see that chains is a form of cc not a way to close the distance on an enemy.

True, then again DK's have more CC than anyone. I dream of the day my Templar has a Spear Shard that can aoe cc in its tiny confines. Not every Templar wants their character to be a healer, and like the DK our class is being pushed further away from warrior/tank mode into healer mode. Tanking has been trashed in this last patch.

Yeah templars have to go stamina to play a warrior role, but at least your class gets a high damage/heal and cc class ability for stamina (biting jabs), dk's get two dots and a crit toggle skill. I'd gladly trade chains for either spear or biting jabs. But that's a matter for a different thread. The biggest problem facing magic dk in pvp is dots are the primary damage dealer and our spender needs to many hits to do enough damage. The 50% damage decrease really hurts magic dk because as I mentioned in a post earlier, both morphs of lava whip are moderate damage, but when we reduce that damage even further it makes the class seem really weak. Before it took maybe 2 or three lashes to kill an enemy, now that number is up to like 5 or 6 lashes and that assumes your enemy doesn't heal in between those lashes. The simplest fix is to buff lava whip so that it's more in line with other class damage dealer skills.

icontested

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

I've stuck with my DK through thick and thin since launch. Yes, the DK renaissance was good.

The whining, here on the forums, especially from the dark brotherhood / rouge role-players, have resulted in many excessive nerfs and have cost us much. The time of staying in the shadows and keeping quite, is over. I don't want to play FOTM builds and want to sick with my DK, but the continual nerfs make the class less viable and wanting to be effective in PvP pushes them into a very small niche role.


Some quick facts for people that struggle understanding class balance:

• DKs are un-mobile
• DKs are supposed to be in-your-face
• DKs have heavy DoTs & close range skills
• DKs have only one, pathetic, distance ability
• DKs have no class gap-closer
• DKs are supposed to be tanky
• DKs have reflect to defend against long range attacks
• DKs now have very little to benefit groups
• DKs have no realistic class execute
• DKs resource management concept is supposed to be based around ultimate generation and battle roar
• DKs are very limited in skill choice and builds to be effective

What nerfs is this DK on about? He's just QQing, right?

• too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed.
• getting pulled off walls when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers? = Extended Chains - nerfed.
• ultimates deal too much damage to huggers? = Magma Shell - nerfed.
• shields return damage to your hugs? = Fragmented Shield - nerfed.
• wanting to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth/long range? = Reflect - nerfed.
• ultimates used too often against hippy huggers?* = Ultimate Generation via Crits - removed.
• countering shield stackers with close range abilities that ignore shields is too annoying? = Lava Whip - nerfed.
• get leaped to when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers from high walls? = Dragon Leap (an ultimate) - nerfed.
• too many DoTs? = Flames of Oblivion - nerfed.
• a support ability to increase group's damage? = Molten Weapons - nerfed.
• too much sustain and idiots can't kill 'top-level' DKs? = Dragon Blood - nerfed.
• close range DoTs hit too hard? = Unstable Flame & Burning Breath - switched to stamina.
• 20% dodge chance in a defensive fixed position too annoying? = Cinder Storm - nerfed.
• able to interrupt multiple people from range? = Eruption - nerfed.
• still too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed again.
• still too many ultimates used? = Ultimate costs - increased.
• looking for alternative ways to manage resources? = Werewolf's passive stamina regen & Vampires regen - nerfed.
• still want to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth? = Attacks from stealth now ignore reflect (and always crit)
• can't deal enough damage and kill DKs that reduce the cost of blocking? = Block - nerfed.

*yes i know another reason was healing springs spammers abused this for ultimate generation between fights


Other gripes:

• "Draw on your draconic blood to heal 33% of missing Health" should heal 33% of missing health and not 16%.
• too much damage to mindless yolo-ers charging into large AoE groups? Impulse = range nerfed. This dealt less damage than steel tornado and had the same range... but only impulse got nerfed. So now we have similar problems with a new generation of mindless drones spamming the same skill in large numbers. Fun and sporting gameplay? #SteelTornadoDrones #STDs #hashtag #imhipandrelevantbecauseiusehashtags

For those that will use the age-old 'perma-bats/banners' argument: DKs didn't create this problem nor did we exploit it (the minority that abused a 98% ultimate cost reduction were other classes too).

The backlash from our finest hour has been excessive in my opinion and has put us in a very dark place. Will the sun ever shine on our class again?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Imperial DragonKnights are demi-gods. I think you are over reacting brother.

Joy_Division

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.

1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"

This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.

2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."

This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.

3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."

If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.

4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"

*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."

5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."

LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."

6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"

This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).

You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?

The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

@Joy_Division tho I highly respect your opinion I have to disagree with you.

Nightblades are Bastions of Death. A DPS class focusing solely on DPS is what 90% of stamina Nightblades do and at less half the magic ones do. Full on face melting power no mix of this and that just killing power. That why we are so good at killing its most likely the only thing are are specced for. We do best when we focus on killing, rather then Tanking or healing.
•Trade off weak heals and death near insteadly on damage.

Sorcerers are Bastions of Magic. Another DPS class going full magic and dancing in a shield is when Sorcerers shine. Do they drop face f*cking power at range and up close yes when they fight it's never pretty.
•Trade off four CCs will put them in a dark place 6 feet under.

Templars are Bastions of Healing. They command the power to heal, deal damage, debuff your healing. For mages this can all be done with one build for stamina uses, damage builds can still drop a sexy healing debuff all be it with weak damage for the attack itself but the full debuff that's the more important part.
•Trade off pretty good balance actually standard Jack of all Traits.

Dragon Knights are Bastions of Life. Your power is not outright killing but the ability to stay a live has always been the classes focus. Tanks should be able to take a castle dropping on their heads and laugh it. Hitters big like a wet noodle is pretty normal cost. Dragon Knights have always been able to kill 4-5 people while tanking.
•Trade off were non you had no down side no mobility seemed like a trade till you remember you could block from on keep the the other fighting four people and killing them as you go

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.

Why would you have a build without CP that makes no sense at all.

hardcore_gmr

Joy_Division wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.

1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"

This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.

2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."

This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.

3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."

If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.

4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"

*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."

5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."

LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."

6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"

This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).

You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?

The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.

I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.

There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.

Bashev

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.

1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"

This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.

2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."

This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.

3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."

If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.

4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"

*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."

5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."

LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."

6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"

This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).

You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?

The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.

I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.

There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.

These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.