R.I.P. DK

Cody · October 2015

well im making a DK starting tomorrow. My current NB is obsolete and needs replacing, and I DO NOT want to make her into one that just mindlessly spams uppercut, or just block cast spams strife entire battles. /shiver.I saw some pretty decents magicka DKs tonight, so its not hopeless.

DUTCH_REAPER · October 2015

I mean if you or your friends have the so called "magic DK build" we should be running please do tell.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

To think I didn't try full tank and full heavy dps and full light dps is Unsat man. The story ends the same. ZOS needs to give DKs some tlc. Now I have 3 V16 DKs 1 V4 sorc and a brand new V7 NB that will be v16 before long. Guess what about the NB?? I find it is ridiculously efficient in pvp compared to my DKs atm.

Lol you're just trolling right please for the love of god tell me you are trolling??

You tired magic don't like it and tried to drop good DPS is 5 or 5+ heavy. Now let me guess your Nightblade is a medium armor wearer? Now I normally hate FOTM people and Bandwagon riders but really light and heavy armored DPS on a Dragon Knight and then reroll a Nightblade medium DPS. Please be a troll.

DUTCH_REAPER · October 2015

No man not trolling. No not a Stam NB for the alt. Just getting tired of how people are saying the class (DK) that is supposed to be able to stay and fight can't do it anymore and people come on here and say it can.

Cody · October 2015

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

I mean if you or your friends have the so called "magic DK build" we should be running please do tell.

its what I aim to try to figure out:/ I have seen it, they are doing something right

DUTCH_REAPER · October 2015

Dude I spent so much money on different gear setups and constantly resetting champ points. But it was a no go

Cody · October 2015

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Dude I spent so much money on different gear setups and constantly resetting champ points. But it was a no go

well perhaps I can find something. Have faith:)

DUTCH_REAPER · October 2015

I hope so. I feel so dirty on. NB hahaha

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · October 2015

Why do people not just Theory Craft their own builds?

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Sets

Is a great source don't have anything but Nightblades till 2.0 I theory crafted three awesome builds for my thinking for a Dragon Knight, Sorcerer and Templar. Funny that I find both my Templar and Dragon Knight winning fights my Nightblades would lose hands down. Reading this post shines a light on the skills I thought Dragon Knights had.

Cody · October 2015

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

I hope so. I feel so dirty on. NB hahaha

I do too, and I have played a NB since beta:( as of now I can either be a mindless uppercut spammer or I can block- cast spam strife the entire battle. Those are both boring to me and cheap in some regards. There is no variation nor challenge in those boring and monotonous play styles. I miss the pre 1.6 days when I could use a hybrid NB more effectively. DW with sparks, impale, cloak, fear, and flurry, and bow for long range with strife, focused aim, cloak, piercing mark, and venom arrow.... man those were fun! Can't do that now though:(

Alright, I've rambeled enough. I must go to peaceful slumber. Goodnight:)

Vangy · October 2015

Wow this thread exploded. I know for a fact magicka dks reallllllly suck in pvp. I've fought countless magicka dks on my stam dk before. Hands down they stand 0 chance. They throw dots. I laugh and purge. They just sit there like a sad little kid and try to slap me with their wet towels. So sad really....

That being said, the stam dk ( my imperial dk) is a frigging Demi God on a 1v1 or a 2v1. He's kick ass in small scale pvp fights. But in any kind of moderate to large group setting he's just bad. Most stam dks run 2h and SnB. Off the bat u can't use spin2win. If u want to use spin2win your better off playing a nb or stam sorc. But in a 1v1 dang my dk is a boss. With 35k stam, 1.5k regen combined with obsidian+rally+vigor and battle roar passive he's neigh impossible to kill given the cp amount doesn't differ by too much with my opponent.

The problem is the meta. Sewers full of zergs, cyro full of zergs and both the dk and the templar suck in these settings. When your group pulls back for a tactical retreat what can you do? You sit there and die then wait for a Rez. You say we tanky? No sir. No matter how godly u are u cant block more than 3 people who know what they are doing simply cos tanking got hit hard due to no stam regen. Add to this it doesn't matter if u are 1v1 or 10v1 ultimates generate at the same rate provided everyone is weaving normal attacks. You generate your leap for regen? Good. Your opponents have 10 meteors charged up to QQ melt u.

The problem isn't with the stam dk at least. It's how the meta has changed and the fact that zergs are king. If they just gave us some mobility or maybe gave back 50% regen to block....

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

essenCe wrote: »

I thought I'd chime in on this and say I completely disagree with the OP.

I only have 33 CP. I rolled a DK last week, post patch I believe, I've leveled him to 37. I have no problems in pvp.

I have extended chains people off of walls - not keeps tho, true. Typically I silver bolts rose people while on reflective scale. They always back off.

My sustainability in battle is insane. I've gone verse 3 at a time and come out on top - even with NB fearing me and nerfing my armor.

I can even last up to a minute when largely outnumbered 10 to one. As far as I'm concerned the fact that I can even last that long against so many players at once is absolutely crazy.

I think this boils down to one thing - everyone hates change. But change happens. Read the patch notes, respec skills and attributes and go have some fun. Everything with DK is awesome IMO.

Thank you for adding your seven days experience. Zos please listen to more of these guys to help keep the DK nerf train going for another year

Or maybe you can listen to the experience of someone that plays the game without 600 cp and don't remember when Dragon Knight were nearly unkillable. He plays he fights he's not face rolling the keyboard and jumping from 5% to full healt in two seconds but he likes it. You're not the Gods of PvP like you have always been evolve to the times.

You know nothing about me or no builds I have one Nightblade for every role I walk off the beaten path don't change the fact that most Nightblade are DPS, most sorcerers are still magic with a raise of stamina build, most Dragon Knight still run Tanky builds and as they do Templars are mostly heals with the best mix of DPS and Tank builds.

Yes you can run any build, any race, any class you want. But find me 100 Pyro Mages and tell me how many are Dummer Dragon Knights

Its funny about that. I like going off the beaten path myself as well. If you really look at Altmer too, I don't think they have much disadvantage when compared to Dunmer even as a pyromage. Its literally like a 1% difference in damage, and the Altmer gets much better sustainability, and can use other elements with more versatility. That being said of course, the Dunmer also gets more Stamina which helps in break frees and the like too. The real benefit is when you combine DK Dunmer and Vampire of course.

DlSTORTlON · October 2015

This was our last raid. Spot the DK.

The fact is... hardly anyone wants to play the DK PvP builds, even stamina DKs are rare. The playstyle just isn't effective or enjoyable.

R.I.P.

Alcast · October 2015

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

This was our last raid. Spot the DK.

The fact is... hardly anyone wants to play the DK PvP builds, even stamina DKs are rare. The playstyle just isn't effective or enjoyable.

R.I.P.

Wait, by effective you mean zerging? Good one...LOL

Here seems to work quite well for those 2 guys:

https://youtu.be/BzELYnlbyjw

DlSTORTlON · October 2015

Alcast wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

This was our last raid. Spot the DK.

The fact is... hardly anyone wants to play the DK PvP builds, even stamina DKs are rare. The playstyle just isn't effective or enjoyable.

R.I.P.

Wait, by effective you mean zerging? Good one...LOL

Here seems to work quite well for those 2 guys:
https://youtu.be/BzELYnlbyjw

Not everyone has 1000's of CPs

Please learn the difference between 'zerging' and 'bomb' groups

Alcast · October 2015

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

This was our last raid. Spot the DK.

The fact is... hardly anyone wants to play the DK PvP builds, even stamina DKs are rare. The playstyle just isn't effective or enjoyable.

R.I.P.

Wait, by effective you mean zerging? Good one...LOL

Here seems to work quite well for those 2 guys:
https://youtu.be/BzELYnlbyjw

Not everyone has 1000's of CPs

Please learn the difference between 'zerging' and 'bomb' groups

You call a 22man grp a BOMB grp? good joke dude LOL.
I guess its you that has to learn not me

RapturousRex · October 2015

I don't know the difference between bomb and Zerg like.

Lot of phrases I don't know, piecing them together piece by piece [dot is damage over time I think), but a glossary would be a massive help.

Armitas · October 2015

You people act like DKs are not constantly trying out new builds. I can tell you they are, and those who gave up and switched to stamina or another class...so what? They have real lives and can't dedicate the time and in game resources to try out every single build, and they shouldn't have to just to be viable. You shouldn't have to fight with a class for months just to find the one niche that works just to be somewhat close to any other class.

Those of you with brand new toons that killed something in pvp... good for you. Your hand full of experiences on lowbie level campaigns is meaningless. Come on people, you are quite literally noob DK's, do you really think you should be coming on here trying to speak authoritatively or tell other people they are not trying hard enough cause you killed a guy in a noob campaign? You have to be joking.

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share someone's unique brilliance or motivation.

DlSTORTlON · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share someone's unique brilliance or motivation.

+1

hardcore_gmr · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

You people act like DKs are not constantly trying out new builds. I can tell you they are, and those who gave up and switched to stamina or another class...so what? They have real lives and can't dedicate the time and in game resources to try out every single build, and they shouldn't have to just to be viable. You shouldn't have to fight with a class for months just to find the one niche that works just to be somewhat close to any other class.

Those of you with brand new toons that killed something in pvp... good for you. Your hand full of experiences on lowbie level campaigns is meaningless. Come on people, you are quite literally noob DK's, do you really think you should be coming on here trying to speak authoritatively or tell other people they are not trying hard enough cause you killed a guy in a noob campaign? You have to be joking.

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share someone's unique brilliance or motivation.

I can't even... I... am utterly speech less! So an emperor kills a zerg, and every player in that zerg is a pvp noob? Even after they strategically fell back and tried to regroup. ..even when he chases them from the keep....all of those players must have been total noobs. How is the highlight reel of magic DK excellence inadmissible? Is it because you don't even come close to it. This is the major flaw of this thread and the point of my earlier post....let me say this so the casual players with lives but have been playing the game since release understand. ...MAGIC DK WAS BROKEN BEFORE THE NERFS. NOT FOR THE REGULAR DK, BUT FOR THE ELITE PLAYERS. THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS. NOW THAT BAD DK'S GET WRECKED, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE DK ARE CRYING BECAUSE FINALLY OTHER PLAYERS DON'T RUN SIMPLY AT THE SIGHT OF FLAPPING WINGS. I REMEMBER THE MAGIC DK YOU PEOPLE ARE CRYING FOR...IT WAS OP. PERIOD. AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS VIDEO AND BACK THEN WAS THAT EVERY MAGIC DK WAS LIKE THAT, NOT JUST THE REAL ELITE PLAYERS.

Too many confuse how long they've played this game with how good they are...the two are not synonymous. Just cause you've played a class since release doesn't make you good. Just cause you participated in a few theory crafting forums doesn't make you an authority. Screen shot your name in the top 5 % for your campaign and then maybe you can dismiss another player's highlight reel, until then I'll trust sypherpk video, I'll trust Veldi kodi ' s video, I'll trust Deltia's video...you know the elite players who have illustrated that the class is still viable because while they don't show all the fails in the videos, you can watch their streams and you can see that the highlight reels you are quick to dismiss is what it looks like in live streams.

The nerve of some people. ..I'm offended that just cause I disagree I gotta be a noob because I haven't been on this forum complaining about nothing as long as other people...get over yourself bro!

RapturousRex · October 2015

How do you know what percent you're in?

I've received master weapons from the 2 campaigns I was in properly, but don't know my actual final percentage.

jakeedmundson · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

You people act like DKs are not constantly trying out new builds. I can tell you they are, and those who gave up and switched to stamina...so what? They have real lives and can't dedicate the time and in game resources to try out every single build, and they shouldn't have to just to be viable. You shouldn't have to fight with a class for months just to find the one niche that works just to be somewhat close to any other class.

Those of you with brand new toons that killed something in pvp good for you. Your hand full of experiences on lowbie level campaigns is meaningless. Come on people, you are quite literally noob DK's, do you really think you should be coming on here trying to speak authoritatively or tell other people they are not trying hard enough cause you killed a guy in a noob campaign? You have to be joking.

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So I'm afraid that posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share your brilliance.

I've tried a few different builds for tanking.... i stick to pve mostly. (switched back and forth from dps to tank like i'm having a midlife crisis)
I have a hard time keeping resources (magic and stam) if i use gear like histbark/footmans.... if i use seducers/footmans - i have survival issues and stam resource issues (less health, physical resist, and no dodge (free block = 0 stamina used))

I know CP has a lot to do with this... i only have 100 cp on console... people that seem to have an easier time have 500+ and can make 9-trait gear.... both of these things take ridiculous amounts of time.

In a game that relies heavily on DPS for dungeons.... i can only survive so long in a boss fight that takes over 30 minutes when it should take 15. (unless the healer is great)
I understand the block/stamina change for the pvp side... but for pve its a killer.

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

You people act like DKs are not constantly trying out new builds. I can tell you they are, and those who gave up and switched to stamina or another class...so what? They have real lives and can't dedicate the time and in game resources to try out every single build, and they shouldn't have to just to be viable. You shouldn't have to fight with a class for months just to find the one niche that works just to be somewhat close to any other class.

Those of you with brand new toons that killed something in pvp... good for you. Your hand full of experiences on lowbie level campaigns is meaningless. Come on people, you are quite literally noob DK's, do you really think you should be coming on here trying to speak authoritatively or tell other people they are not trying hard enough cause you killed a guy in a noob campaign? You have to be joking.

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share someone's unique brilliance or motivation.

I can't even... I... am utterly speech less! So an emperor kills a zerg, and every player in that zerg is a pvp noob? Even after they strategically fell back and tried to regroup. ..even when he chases them from the keep....all of those players must have been total noobs. How is the highlight reel of magic DK excellence inadmissible? Is it because you don't even come close to it. This is the major flaw of this thread and the point of my earlier post....let me say this so the casual players with lives but have been playing the game since release understand. ...MAGIC DK WAS BROKEN BEFORE THE NERFS. NOT FOR THE REGULAR DK, BUT FOR THE ELITE PLAYERS. THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS. NOW THAT BAD DK'S GET WRECKED, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE DK ARE CRYING BECAUSE FINALLY OTHER PLAYERS DON'T RUN SIMPLY AT THE SIGHT OF FLAPPING WINGS. I REMEMBER THE MAGIC DK YOU PEOPLE ARE CRYING FOR...IT WAS OP. PERIOD. AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS VIDEO AND BACK THEN WAS THAT EVERY MAGIC DK WAS LIKE THAT, NOT JUST THE REAL ELITE PLAYERS.

Too many confuse how long they've played this game with how good they are...the two are not synonymous. Just cause you've played a class since release doesn't make you good. Just cause you participated in a few theory crafting forums doesn't make you an authority. Screen shot your name in the top 5 % for your campaign and then maybe you can dismiss another player's highlight reel, until then I'll trust sypherpk video, I'll trust Veldi kodi ' s video, I'll trust Deltia's video...you know the elite players who have illustrated that the class is still viable because while they don't show all the fails in the videos, you can watch their streams and you can see that the highlight reels you are quick to dismiss is what it looks like in live streams.

The nerve of some people. ..I'm offended that just cause I disagree I gotta be a noob because I haven't been on this forum complaining about nothing as long as other people...get over yourself bro!

You just said a key phrase that completely highlights the problem we are all talking about.... see the bold above for the VERY important section of your post.
I'll wait....

So it's ok in your mind... to punish the majority because of the small percent that found a niche in the play style for pvp??
There were other ways this could have been changed without destroying the general player base's game.

I logged on last night to play... i did my writs and waited around for a while to try and get a group together for the dungeon dailies...
Then, i thought... "wtf am i doing?" and logged off.... so yeah... that's what these "updates" have turned this game into for me.
It's very difficult to get motivated for any kind of group play when i'm a DK tank in PVE.

Lord-Otto · October 2015

Cody wrote: »

well im making a DK starting tomorrow. My current NB is obsolete and needs replacing, and I DO NOT want to make her into one that just mindlessly spams uppercut, or just block cast spams strife entire battles. /shiver.I saw some pretty decents magicka DKs tonight, so its not hopeless.

Magicka DK here. Dunmer vampire. AoE dps in PvE is a total BEAST, I assure you! =D PvP falls a bit short, though. Great utility, good sustained damage... But you will never kill a good player on your own, as you are lacking those burst damage moves. I consider myself more of a frontline support, as in improving the odds where it is needed at that moment. Can provide projectile reflects, roots/stuns, heals and a strong Meteor every now and then. It's enough to score on the top leaderboard, but you should never engage on your own, chances are you will fail miserably. I sigh every time I see those 8k wrecking Blows all over my death recap screen, if we magicka builds just could get a burst move like that! =/

Joy_Division · October 2015

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

You people act like DKs are not constantly trying out new builds. I can tell you they are, and those who gave up and switched to stamina or another class...so what? They have real lives and can't dedicate the time and in game resources to try out every single build, and they shouldn't have to just to be viable. You shouldn't have to fight with a class for months just to find the one niche that works just to be somewhat close to any other class.

Those of you with brand new toons that killed something in pvp... good for you. Your hand full of experiences on lowbie level campaigns is meaningless. Come on people, you are quite literally noob DK's, do you really think you should be coming on here trying to speak authoritatively or tell other people they are not trying hard enough cause you killed a guy in a noob campaign? You have to be joking.

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share someone's unique brilliance or motivation.

I can't even... I... am utterly speech less! So an emperor kills a zerg, and every player in that zerg is a pvp noob? Even after they strategically fell back and tried to regroup. ..even when he chases them from the keep....all of those players must have been total noobs. How is the highlight reel of magic DK excellence inadmissible? Is it because you don't even come close to it. This is the major flaw of this thread and the point of my earlier post....let me say this so the casual players with lives but have been playing the game since release understand. ...MAGIC DK WAS BROKEN BEFORE THE NERFS. NOT FOR THE REGULAR DK, BUT FOR THE ELITE PLAYERS. THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS. NOW THAT BAD DK'S GET WRECKED, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE DK ARE CRYING BECAUSE FINALLY OTHER PLAYERS DON'T RUN SIMPLY AT THE SIGHT OF FLAPPING WINGS. I REMEMBER THE MAGIC DK YOU PEOPLE ARE CRYING FOR...IT WAS OP. PERIOD. AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS VIDEO AND BACK THEN WAS THAT EVERY MAGIC DK WAS LIKE THAT, NOT JUST THE REAL ELITE PLAYERS.

Too many confuse how long they've played this game with how good they are...the two are not synonymous. Just cause you've played a class since release doesn't make you good. Just cause you participated in a few theory crafting forums doesn't make you an authority. Screen shot your name in the top 5 % for your campaign and then maybe you can dismiss another player's highlight reel, until then I'll trust sypherpk video, I'll trust Veldi kodi ' s video, I'll trust Deltia's video...you know the elite players who have illustrated that the class is still viable because while they don't show all the fails in the videos, you can watch their streams and you can see that the highlight reels you are quick to dismiss is what it looks like in live streams.

The nerve of some people. ..I'm offended that just cause I disagree I gotta be a noob because I haven't been on this forum complaining about nothing as long as other people...get over yourself bro!

Yeah, the nerve.

If you actually watched Sypher's videos, let alone analyzed them, you would understand they contradict the "case" you are trying to make.

Here he comes and straight outs and says it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74WGwlqMnPk

And that's a stamina DK, which people generally regard as competitive.

DUTCH_REAPER · October 2015

So because I'm not in the top 5% or not an EMP I'm not good? Haha I'm sorry I don't have soo much time to get AP or get an AP grind going...well muh bad dude.

Pfft your post...u lost all credit in my eyes

Darnathian · October 2015

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.

For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.

What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.

So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.

With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.

Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.

Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.

1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"

This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.

2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."

This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.

3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."

If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.

4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"

*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."

5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."

LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."

6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"

This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).

You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?

The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.

I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.

Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.

There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.

I think you missed your own point. Started writing with a thoug

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

You people act like DKs are not constantly trying out new builds. I can tell you they are, and those who gave up and switched to stamina or another class...so what? They have real lives and can't dedicate the time and in game resources to try out every single build, and they shouldn't have to just to be viable. You shouldn't have to fight with a class for months just to find the one niche that works just to be somewhat close to any other class.

Those of you with brand new toons that killed something in pvp... good for you. Your hand full of experiences on lowbie level campaigns is meaningless. Come on people, you are quite literally noob DK's, do you really think you should be coming on here trying to speak authoritatively or tell other people they are not trying hard enough cause you killed a guy in a noob campaign? You have to be joking.

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share someone's unique brilliance or motivation.

I can't even... I... am utterly speech less! So an emperor kills a zerg, and every player in that zerg is a pvp noob? Even after they strategically fell back and tried to regroup. ..even when he chases them from the keep....all of those players must have been total noobs. How is the highlight reel of magic DK excellence inadmissible? Is it because you don't even come close to it. This is the major flaw of this thread and the point of my earlier post....let me say this so the casual players with lives but have been playing the game since release understand. ...MAGIC DK WAS BROKEN BEFORE THE NERFS. NOT FOR THE REGULAR DK, BUT FOR THE ELITE PLAYERS. THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS. NOW THAT BAD DK'S GET WRECKED, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE DK ARE CRYING BECAUSE FINALLY OTHER PLAYERS DON'T RUN SIMPLY AT THE SIGHT OF FLAPPING WINGS. I REMEMBER THE MAGIC DK YOU PEOPLE ARE CRYING FOR...IT WAS OP. PERIOD. AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS VIDEO AND BACK THEN WAS THAT EVERY MAGIC DK WAS LIKE THAT, NOT JUST THE REAL ELITE PLAYERS.

Too many confuse how long they've played this game with how good they are...the two are not synonymous. Just cause you've played a class since release doesn't make you good. Just cause you participated in a few theory crafting forums doesn't make you an authority. Screen shot your name in the top 5 % for your campaign and then maybe you can dismiss another player's highlight reel, until then I'll trust sypherpk video, I'll trust Veldi kodi ' s video, I'll trust Deltia's video...you know the elite players who have illustrated that the class is still viable because while they don't show all the fails in the videos, you can watch their streams and you can see that the highlight reels you are quick to dismiss is what it looks like in live streams.

The nerve of some people. ..I'm offended that just cause I disagree I gotta be a noob because I haven't been on this forum complaining about nothing as long as other people...get over yourself bro!

Lol. Not one point made. Except that he knows what the caps lock button does.

Armitas · October 2015

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

So because I'm not in the top 5% or not an EMP I'm not good? Haha I'm sorry I don't have soo much time to get AP or get an AP grind going...well muh bad dude.

Pfft your post...u lost all credit in my eyes

Since someone quoted that guy I actually got to read what he said. His post made no sense to me, I'm a former emperor and being on the leaderboards is absolutely meaningless. You can get on the top of the leaderboards 2 ways, having more time than everyone or playing smarter than everyone else. Being good has little to do with it unless you also have the time and or the planning to play the AP game. No clue why he even mentioned Sypher, because he was on the very panel I referred to in my post, and is in agreement, along with the rest of the panel, that DK's have been nerfed too far. Since he claims to trust what Sypher says he must either go back on that trust, or accept it and move on. Should be interesting.

DUTCH_REAPER · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

So because I'm not in the top 5% or not an EMP I'm not good? Haha I'm sorry I don't have soo much time to get AP or get an AP grind going...well muh bad dude.

Pfft your post...u lost all credit in my eyes

Since someone quoted that guy I actually got to read what he said. His post made no sense to me, I'm a former emperor and being on the leaderboards is absolutely meaningless. You can get on the top of the leaderboards 2 ways, having more time than everyone or playing smarter than everyone else. Being good has little to do with it unless you also have the time and or the planning to play the AP game. No clue why he even mentioned sypher, cause he was on the very panel I referred to in my post.

Exactly my point thank you!

I think he mentioned sypherpk because he wanted to seem like a subject matter expert but instead just made himself look redonkulous.

jakeedmundson · October 2015

Armitas wrote: »

After 17 pages of feedback in another thread ZOS has decided to make "adjustments" and "tweaks" to our class two updates from now.... So hopefully by the third update they will actually do something. Amazing... Did I say amazing?...What I I meant to say was "Astonishing".

I like how this is two updates away...
Can we just rename the Dragon knight to "Bear"?
apparently we just have to hibernate through the winter until it's nice enough to go outside.

CP5 · October 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

hardcore_gmr wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

You people act like DKs are not constantly trying out new builds. I can tell you they are, and those who gave up and switched to stamina or another class...so what? They have real lives and can't dedicate the time and in game resources to try out every single build, and they shouldn't have to just to be viable. You shouldn't have to fight with a class for months just to find the one niche that works just to be somewhat close to any other class.

Those of you with brand new toons that killed something in pvp... good for you. Your hand full of experiences on lowbie level campaigns is meaningless. Come on people, you are quite literally noob DK's, do you really think you should be coming on here trying to speak authoritatively or tell other people they are not trying hard enough cause you killed a guy in a noob campaign? You have to be joking.

Those of you posting highlight reels as evidence are simply too lazy to address the case or incapable of addressing it in a real manner. If you think a highlight reel of killing PvE noobs with all the major failures removed is evidence that magicka DKs are fine then I shudder to imagine what sort of decisions you make in real life with such poor standards for determining the truth. We all know what IC is right now, it's where all of us go to farm noobs who can't PvP their way out of a wet paper bag. We just had a panel of some of the best pvpers in the game right now from every class but Templar and they also recognize that there are problems with the magicka DK due to successive nerfing. They recognized the distinction between wrecking noobs and being on par with the other classess. So posting highlight reels isn't going to cut it, you will have to actually address the points mentioned and show why they are untrue. There is a good reason why so many people are fleeing the DK, and it's not because they don't share someone's unique brilliance or motivation.

I can't even... I... am utterly speech less! So an emperor kills a zerg, and every player in that zerg is a pvp noob? Even after they strategically fell back and tried to regroup. ..even when he chases them from the keep....all of those players must have been total noobs. How is the highlight reel of magic DK excellence inadmissible? Is it because you don't even come close to it. This is the major flaw of this thread and the point of my earlier post....let me say this so the casual players with lives but have been playing the game since release understand. ...MAGIC DK WAS BROKEN BEFORE THE NERFS. NOT FOR THE REGULAR DK, BUT FOR THE ELITE PLAYERS. THE CLASS WAS SO OVERPOWERED THAT EVEN THE WORST DK'S COULD WRECK OTHER PLAYERS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE A MAGIC DK. MANY OF YOU SO CALLED TOP PVP'ERS WERE ONLY GOOD BECAUSE YOU WERE PLAYING AN OP CLASS. NOW THAT BAD DK'S GET WRECKED, A LOT OF MEDIOCRE DK ARE CRYING BECAUSE FINALLY OTHER PLAYERS DON'T RUN SIMPLY AT THE SIGHT OF FLAPPING WINGS. I REMEMBER THE MAGIC DK YOU PEOPLE ARE CRYING FOR...IT WAS OP. PERIOD. AND THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THIS VIDEO AND BACK THEN WAS THAT EVERY MAGIC DK WAS LIKE THAT, NOT JUST THE REAL ELITE PLAYERS.

Too many confuse how long they've played this game with how good they are...the two are not synonymous. Just cause you've played a class since release doesn't make you good. Just cause you participated in a few theory crafting forums doesn't make you an authority. Screen shot your name in the top 5 % for your campaign and then maybe you can dismiss another player's highlight reel, until then I'll trust sypherpk video, I'll trust Veldi kodi ' s video, I'll trust Deltia's video...you know the elite players who have illustrated that the class is still viable because while they don't show all the fails in the videos, you can watch their streams and you can see that the highlight reels you are quick to dismiss is what it looks like in live streams.

The nerve of some people. ..I'm offended that just cause I disagree I gotta be a noob because I haven't been on this forum complaining about nothing as long as other people...get over yourself bro!

Yeah, the nerve.

If you actually watched Sypher's videos, let alone analyzed them, you would understand they contradict the "case" you are trying to make.

Here he comes and straight outs and says it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74WGwlqMnPk

And that's a stamina DK, which people generally regard as competitive.

Looked more like he got irritated by the jabs spam and having his burst interrupted. And he lasted a long time as is, even when being swarmed by all of those stuns and cc's.