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R.I.P. DK
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hardcore_gmr✭✭✭
These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.hardcore_gmr wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.
1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"
This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.
2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."
This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.
3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."
If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.
4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"
*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."
LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"
This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).
You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?
The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.
I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.
There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOyEld_A3SI
I can post a pve build if you like...Edited by hardcore_gmr on October 11, 2015 6:37PM1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »@Joy_Division tho I highly respect your opinion I have to disagree with you.
Nightblades are Bastions of Death. A DPS class focusing solely on DPS is what 90% of stamina Nightblades do and at less half the magic ones do. Full on face melting power no mix of this and that just killing power. That why we are so good at killing its most likely the only thing are are specced for. We do best when we focus on killing, rather then Tanking or healing.
•Trade off weak heals and death near insteadly on damage.
Sorcerers are Bastions of Magic. Another DPS class going full magic and dancing in a shield is when Sorcerers shine. Do they drop face f*cking power at range and up close yes when they fight it's never pretty.
•Trade off four CCs will put them in a dark place 6 feet under.
Templars are Bastions of Healing. They command the power to heal, deal damage, debuff your healing. For mages this can all be done with one build for stamina uses, damage builds can still drop a sexy healing debuff all be it with weak damage for the attack itself but the full debuff that's the more important part.
•Trade off pretty good balance actually standard Jack of all Traits.
Dragon Knights are Bastions of Life. Your power is not outright killing but the ability to stay a live has always been the classes focus. Tanks should be able to take a castle dropping on their heads and laugh it. Hitters big like a wet noodle is pretty normal cost. Dragon Knights have always been able to kill 4-5 people while tanking.
•Trade off were non you had no down side no mobility seemed like a trade till you remember you could block from on keep the the other fighting four people and killing them as you go
I know you get a lot of kills on your NB and know the game. But I think you are falling into the trap of listening too much of whatever flavor-text ZoS uses to describe these classes rather than recognizing how the game have rendered those descriptions obsolete.
You say a NB is a bastion of death and it most certainly is. But now there is Rally which is a Hot and burst heal, a very good HoT skill in Rally, I can invest many champion points in healing received, healing initiated and healing effectiveness through potions. At launch NBs had no heals and had to kill stuff in order to do it. Now all the NBs I fight have numerous heals that are actually pretty good.
Sorcerers are bastions of magic. Before the champion system I would get killed by CC spammers. Now in the champion system I have invested in the break free passive and stam recovery so I can CC break when I need to. Also my shield now stacks with an attribute that is over 40K. I am 6 feet under much less often.
Both of these classes have further benefited because the meta has placed a premium on what it is they do well, mobility and damage. Point: the benefits are greater and the trade-offs are less.
I will grant that a DK they can be still be built to be a bastion of life. Sort of. But it is like a dinosaur after the meteor fell. Big and scary, yet ill-equipped to compete in the new environment that it now lived in. A DK who ventures out on her own might be able to tank a few people even though many of the class tools that she allegedly has are no longer suited for this function (cinderstorm, dragon blood, elimination of dymanic ultimate), but she *will* die, not so gloriously, when she runs into a group who knows what they are doing, to say nothing of the dreaded zerg. But like the little birdies that evolved after the meteor, my sorcerer does just fine on her own. Do you know with the exception of streak, every single sorcerer skill that I use has been buffed, even the really good ones like crystal fragments? ZoS keeps making its passives better (free stam regen!)? That I don't even have 40K magicka and 100 points into bastion and I can face-tank? The zerg comes *poof* I am gone. Is it fair that I have mobility, firepower, and tankiness? I don't think so, but it is fun.
None of us are saying that thy people can't make a DK that can't take a few hits or occasionally kill an opponent. They are saying the the effort in doing so is far out of proportion to what the other three classes have to do to achieve the same result and there are certain things that a DK just can't do that, again, are available to other classes. This makes playing a magicka DK an exercise in frustration and why many of us have left ours in states of semi-official retirement.
If you and other posters do not agree and think we are overstating the case, that is fine. I do, however, feel that posters who have pointed out how the game's development has fundamentally changed how PvP is played and has undermined the the original design of the DK have *not* been refuted. Thus the case *is* there, it is just how much that is up for debate. People keep telling us to adapt, but we are square pegs and PvP is a round hole. This is a game. I log in for entertainment and to have fun. There isn't a reward or the promise of a better future for sticking the tough times out like in a job or a relationship. Not even close. That is why I log onto my sorcerer and my templar to actually PvP and only on my DK to craft potions and staffs.
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.3 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.
Yes that all stamina builds even my Nightblade is only 3 Nightblade powers per bar at max attacks and utilities.
Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
OK and lets see the build in action please.hardcore_gmr wrote: »
These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.hardcore_gmr wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.
1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"
This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.
2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."
This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.
3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."
If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.
4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"
*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."
LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"
This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).
You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?
The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.
I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.
There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOyEld_A3SI
I can post a pve build if you like...
At 2:55 it looks like you are using macro
Edited by Bashev on October 11, 2015 9:57PMBecause I can!0 -
hardcore_gmr✭✭✭
Youtube...kodi gaming
OK and lets see the build in action please.hardcore_gmr wrote: »
These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.hardcore_gmr wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.
1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"
This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.
2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."
This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.
3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."
If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.
4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"
*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."
LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"
This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).
You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?
The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.
I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.
There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOyEld_A3SI
I can post a pve build if you like...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uoJfkCiZ8VY&itct=CCYQpDAYACITCN_l3t2Yu8gCFQKPvgodmqwPXzIGcmVsbWZ1SL29mP6b9bvpBA%3D%3D Edited by hardcore_gmr on October 11, 2015 7:53PM0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think DK is far from being R.I.P.
They are the hardest class to play when played right, have the highest DPS and can be super dangerous in pvp.
DK has the crown in 2 roles, tanking and DD. What more could a class ask for ?
Please stop saying this stuff. Play one first then make comments like that.0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Personofsecrets wrote: »chains is absolute rubbish in that it can either work, not work at all, or drag the player to the enemy. It is the most jarring skill to use that has peeved me right off since 1.6.
Imagine if you get exasperated 1/3 of the time you use a skill.
Id suggest rather than it being a morph issue for the player who uses chains to not be pulled if they are blocking. That would make the skill more versatile.
It's because they don't use one. They just read tool tips. We have a word for them in the military. Arm chair quarterbacks.1 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »How can anyone defend a magica DK in its current state? 99% of the people that say that they are "good" is either: A) People that arent max level. B ) People that have never played a DK.
DK class "Gapcloser" (Dosent even CC or snare and give free cc immunity. ROFL.) Is a joke.
DK survivability is also a joke unless COMPLETELY specced for survivability and tankyness. (Sorcs gets this for free by just maxing their main resource pool.) Dragonblood nerf was really to much togheter with the block changes.
High CP is almost a MUST in order to be on a equal level as other classes. And if we get this supposed cap soon and it is to low we´re even more screwed over.
People are missing that this thread is MAINLY but not only focused towards MAGICKA DKS. Flying blade, Pierce armour etc isnt really to beneficial to this discussion at all. Likewise is DK OP pre 1.6 "arguments". Everyclass could do ridiculous things back then.. (Most people seem to forget perma negate/Batswarm sorcs. Close to 100% dmg mitigation NBs and Blazing shield Templars dealing insane damage.)
I want 4 classes back in PvP!
(My viewpoint is mainly from a PvP perspective.)
I also think it's stupid that chains gives free CC immunity for almost nothing. But it still is a great 2 in 1 gap closer.
EACH gap closer shortly stuns the target and should grant immunity just like chains do. (yes, even critical rush does, it shortly roots the target)
And Chains not granting immunity at all would also be quite op, considering it interrupts and staggers the target.
However I can't agree Magicka Dks are weak or something, even though I would want to agree. They definately aren't
It's insane if played right. Maybe we could say that DKs are the hardest class to play ? Because each class is extremely bad if played wrong and DK has potential to be the mightiest if played right. Seems like few people even attempt to achieve that though, because the are doomed to be a turtle until they die, because they don't want to try things.
Wtf are you talking about. It is a terrible gap closer. Just stop. Omg stop. I feel like I get dumber reading your biased bs.1 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sensesfail13 wrote: »Excellent post, I would like to add for the poster that you forgot to include : DK damage predominantly from DoTs- Inadvertently nerfed with the lowered chance to inflict burn. DK damage is predominantly fire: Nerf inferno staff and buff the hell out of lightning and frost staves.
Exactly. Nerf the *** out of purge and DKs will stand a chance.
That one skill negates Magicka DK on its own0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »How can anyone defend a magica DK in its current state? 99% of the people that say that they are "good" is either: A) People that arent max level. B ) People that have never played a DK.
DK class "Gapcloser" (Dosent even CC or snare and give free cc immunity. ROFL.) Is a joke.
DK survivability is also a joke unless COMPLETELY specced for survivability and tankyness. (Sorcs gets this for free by just maxing their main resource pool.) Dragonblood nerf was really to much togheter with the block changes.
High CP is almost a MUST in order to be on a equal level as other classes. And if we get this supposed cap soon and it is to low we´re even more screwed over.
People are missing that this thread is MAINLY but not only focused towards MAGICKA DKS. Flying blade, Pierce armour etc isnt really to beneficial to this discussion at all. Likewise is DK OP pre 1.6 "arguments". Everyclass could do ridiculous things back then.. (Most people seem to forget perma negate/Batswarm sorcs. Close to 100% dmg mitigation NBs and Blazing shield Templars dealing insane damage.)
I want 4 classes back in PvP!
(My viewpoint is mainly from a PvP perspective.)
I also think it's stupid that chains gives free CC immunity for almost nothing. But it still is a great 2 in 1 gap closer.
EACH gap closer shortly stuns the target and should grant immunity just like chains do. (yes, even critical rush does, it shortly roots the target)
And Chains not granting immunity at all would also be quite op, considering it interrupts and staggers the target.
However I can't agree Magicka Dks are weak or something, even though I would want to agree. They definately aren't
It's insane if played right. Maybe we could say that DKs are the hardest class to play ? Because each class is extremely bad if played wrong and DK has potential to be the mightiest if played right. Seems like few people even attempt to achieve that though, because the are doomed to be a turtle until they die, because they don't want to try things.
Theres nothign great about chains, its a wasted skillslot and it dosent even work half the time. Dont compare it to a gapcloser cus it isn't. It USED to be good cus you could contiuisly pull people to you / from walls etc and it was consistent in which direction it would pull you in.
Could you enlighten me what strenghts a magica DK have in a large scale AvAvA enviorment? As far as im aware all the ones we had got overnerfed instead of tweaked in a resonable way. What is this potential you speak of? The only "unique" things about DKs today is that they can interupt Templars healing ultimate.. yay for potential. '
I also happen to know that you have a very strong bias against DKs and have had so for quite some time. We´re not in 1.5 anymore, you might wanna do some catching up..
Noooo, I have nothing against DKs :O
I only try being realistic. Other classes got nerfed into the ground, DK is not amongst them.
Omg ban this toon. Worst sorc troll North America.0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »How can anyone defend a magica DK in its current state? 99% of the people that say that they are "good" is either: A) People that arent max level. B ) People that have never played a DK.
DK class "Gapcloser" (Dosent even CC or snare and give free cc immunity. ROFL.) Is a joke.
DK survivability is also a joke unless COMPLETELY specced for survivability and tankyness. (Sorcs gets this for free by just maxing their main resource pool.) Dragonblood nerf was really to much togheter with the block changes.
High CP is almost a MUST in order to be on a equal level as other classes. And if we get this supposed cap soon and it is to low we´re even more screwed over.
People are missing that this thread is MAINLY but not only focused towards MAGICKA DKS. Flying blade, Pierce armour etc isnt really to beneficial to this discussion at all. Likewise is DK OP pre 1.6 "arguments". Everyclass could do ridiculous things back then.. (Most people seem to forget perma negate/Batswarm sorcs. Close to 100% dmg mitigation NBs and Blazing shield Templars dealing insane damage.)
I want 4 classes back in PvP!
(My viewpoint is mainly from a PvP perspective.)
I also think it's stupid that chains gives free CC immunity for almost nothing. But it still is a great 2 in 1 gap closer.
EACH gap closer shortly stuns the target and should grant immunity just like chains do. (yes, even critical rush does, it shortly roots the target)
And Chains not granting immunity at all would also be quite op, considering it interrupts and staggers the target.
However I can't agree Magicka Dks are weak or something, even though I would want to agree. They definately aren't
It's insane if played right. Maybe we could say that DKs are the hardest class to play ? Because each class is extremely bad if played wrong and DK has potential to be the mightiest if played right. Seems like few people even attempt to achieve that though, because the are doomed to be a turtle until they die, because they don't want to try things.
Theres nothign great about chains, its a wasted skillslot and it dosent even work half the time. Dont compare it to a gapcloser cus it isn't. It USED to be good cus you could contiuisly pull people to you / from walls etc and it was consistent in which direction it would pull you in.
Could you enlighten me what strenghts a magica DK have in a large scale AvAvA enviorment? As far as im aware all the ones we had got overnerfed instead of tweaked in a resonable way. What is this potential you speak of? The only "unique" things about DKs today is that they can interupt Templars healing ultimate.. yay for potential. '
I also happen to know that you have a very strong bias against DKs and have had so for quite some time. We´re not in 1.5 anymore, you might wanna do some catching up..
Noooo, I have nothing against DKs :O
I only try being realistic. Other classes got nerfed into the ground, DK is not amongst them.
DK is definetly among them, infact they are the class that got nerfed the hardest of all classes and the class that got affected most from non-direct nerfs throughout the history of ESO. I'm still waiting to hear about that hidden potential and awesome skills that magica DKs have to their disposal.
She can't. Never played a dk. She is the definition of a FOTM sorc. A perfect example of who Zos listened too and got this game to this horrid state.0 -
essenCe✭To the people who responded to me.
I don't have a video because I wasn't video capturing. And I wouldn't put that much effort into proving it anyway. This is a video game, I'm not going to lie about a game. Lol.
I three on oned some people in black water blade. Believe it or don't. I actually respecced my skills and took green dragon blood over coagulated and now I only use magicka to heal and mitigate damage. This isn't my vet sorc, I know Bwb is different from vet, that's probably why I COULD 3 on one some pre vets. Once I get my dk into vet, you and two of your buddies should test it out. It'll be good practice.
Dk is not broken, you just have to not be unwilling to adapt to patch changes.
I don't even know why I responded, I logged in to browse. I definitely have better things to do, thought I'd try to provide some positive feedback.
0 -
AlcastClass RepresentativeTo the people who responded to me.
I don't have a video because I wasn't video capturing. And I wouldn't put that much effort into proving it anyway. This is a video game, I'm not going to lie about a game. Lol.
I three on oned some people in black water blade. Believe it or don't. I actually respecced my skills and took green dragon blood over coagulated and now I only use magicka to heal and mitigate damage. This isn't my vet sorc, I know Bwb is different from vet, that's probably why I COULD 3 on one some pre vets. Once I get my dk into vet, you and two of your buddies should test it out. It'll be good practice.
Dk is not broken, you just have to not be unwilling to adapt to patch changes.
I don't even know why I responded, I logged in to browse. I definitely have better things to do, thought I'd try to provide some positive feedback.
My Man.....first person who understands the word adapt.https://alcasthq.com - Alcasthq.com Builds & Guides
https://eso-hub.com - ESO-Hub.com Sets, Skills, Guides & News
https://dwemerautomaton.com - Discord, Telegram & Twitch Command Bot1 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭I thought I'd chime in on this and say I completely disagree with the OP.
I only have 33 CP. I rolled a DK last week, post patch I believe, I've leveled him to 37. I have no problems in pvp.
I have extended chains people off of walls - not keeps tho, true. Typically I silver bolts rose people while on reflective scale. They always back off.
My sustainability in battle is insane. I've gone verse 3 at a time and come out on top - even with NB fearing me and nerfing my armor.
I can even last up to a minute when largely outnumbered 10 to one. As far as I'm concerned the fact that I can even last that long against so many players at once is absolutely crazy.
I think this boils down to one thing - everyone hates change. But change happens. Read the patch notes, respec skills and attributes and go have some fun. Everything with DK is awesome IMO.
Thank you for adding your seven days experience. Zos please listen to more of these guys to help keep the DK nerf train going for another year3 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If that's our gap closer, then I guess Molten Armaments is our execute? Wow, you just basically inadvertently described why the DK class needs fixing. Bravo!DKs have their own gap closer, it's called Chains, whether it pulls the target to you or pull you to the target is irrelevant when determining if it's a gap closer or not, just saying.
Never said it didn't.
I've played a templar since beta so I know what it's like to be the underdog, I totally feel all you DKs in this thread.Edited by Zinaroth on October 11, 2015 9:06PM0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Nice start. But please exain a viable magicka dk. You dodged that completely. Where does the burst come from? Purge cloak and cleanse remove all damage abilities except whip. Which you admitted is useless now.
I spent 1.5 million gold trying different combos.Edited by Darnathian on October 11, 2015 9:20PM2 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »@Joy_Division tho I highly respect your opinion I have to disagree with you.
Nightblades are Bastions of Death. A DPS class focusing solely on DPS is what 90% of stamina Nightblades do and at less half the magic ones do. Full on face melting power no mix of this and that just killing power. That why we are so good at killing its most likely the only thing are are specced for. We do best when we focus on killing, rather then Tanking or healing.
•Trade off weak heals and death near insteadly on damage.
Sorcerers are Bastions of Magic. Another DPS class going full magic and dancing in a shield is when Sorcerers shine. Do they drop face f*cking power at range and up close yes when they fight it's never pretty.
•Trade off four CCs will put them in a dark place 6 feet under.
Templars are Bastions of Healing. They command the power to heal, deal damage, debuff your healing. For mages this can all be done with one build for stamina uses, damage builds can still drop a sexy healing debuff all be it with weak damage for the attack itself but the full debuff that's the more important part.
•Trade off pretty good balance actually standard Jack of all Traits.
Dragon Knights are Bastions of Life. Your power is not outright killing but the ability to stay a live has always been the classes focus. Tanks should be able to take a castle dropping on their heads and laugh it. Hitters big like a wet noodle is pretty normal cost. Dragon Knights have always been able to kill 4-5 people while tanking.
•Trade off were non you had no down side no mobility seemed like a trade till you remember you could block from on keep the the other fighting four people and killing them as you go
Not one fact presented. This is all conjecture. What was the point of any of it? It was descriptions like it was from a trailer or something.
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Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭hardcore_gmr wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.
1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"
This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.
2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."
This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.
3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."
If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.
4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"
*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."
LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"
This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).
You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?
The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.
I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.
There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.
I think you missed your own point. Started writing with a thought maybe then confused yourself and hit post1 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
OK and lets see the build in action please.hardcore_gmr wrote: »
These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.hardcore_gmr wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.
1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"
This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.
2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."
This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.
3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."
If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.
4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"
*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."
LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"
This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).
You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?
The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.
I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.
There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOyEld_A3SI
I can post a pve build if you like...
@Cody Ar 2:55 it looks like you are using macro
That's not @Cody - it's @Velukodi
And he does not macro, he's just an exceptional player.0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Ops sorry that I pointed the wrong person. But still it looks a lot to a macro. Why you gonna cast a skill and immediately animation cancel it when you just show some buff?
OK and lets see the build in action please.hardcore_gmr wrote: »
These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.hardcore_gmr wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.
1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"
This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.
2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."
This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.
3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."
If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.
4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"
*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."
LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"
This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).
You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?
The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.
I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.
There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOyEld_A3SI
I can post a pve build if you like...
@Cody Ar 2:55 it looks like you are using macro
That's not @Cody - it's @Velukodi
And he does not macro, he's just an exceptional player.
Because I can!0 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
OK and lets see the build in action please.hardcore_gmr wrote: »
These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.hardcore_gmr wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.
1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"
This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.
2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."
This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.
3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."
If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.
4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"
*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."
LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"
This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).
You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?
The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.
I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.
There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOyEld_A3SI
I can post a pve build if you like...
At 2:55 it looks like you are using macro
that is most certainly not me. lol.0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Sorry again!
OK and lets see the build in action please.hardcore_gmr wrote: »
These builds are stamina builds and they use only 2 max 3 DK skills.hardcore_gmr wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »I have watched this thread grow and ballon into this crazy mix of new players and old players weighing in on the DK class and I thought I'd share my thoughts. First let me point out that I strongly disagree with the OP, I think magic DK and stam DK are perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game. Now I could just leave it at that but I thought i'd comment on how I feel the OP arrived at his conclusion here.
For starters, pre 1.6, DK was the power class. Anyone who would argue that the DK was not by far the best PvP class then, is in some obvious serious denial. Here's why, the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility.
What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king, they would often define who would win 1v1 or 1vx engagements as weapon skills at the time were high cost and used more for effect than for consistent damage. Pre 1.6, and to a lesser extent 1.6 itself, magic DK specifically was king because these DK's could make great uses of the class based CC, the class based whip (that could not be avoided, especially if CC'ed first), they could keep themselves alive with a array of class based healing skills, and had amazing resource management through use of passives and ultimates. Dots have always been purgable so that is unchanged.
So how do we arrive to the conclusion that the class is dead? Well, in PvP almost all of these class based actions have undergone some sort of change. For starters healing is reduced by 50% which has turned what was arguably the best healing source in the game into little more than a weak potion. Green Dragon Blood is easily outclassed now by tripots and other healing sources for two key reasons. First of which is the named buff it provides. In 1.5 and earlier, buffs were not named and therefore would stack with everything else. So for example, if a magic DK popped GDB and took a potion the two effects would work together instead of against each other. Now with the named buffs, (GDB and healing potions have the same named buff) these two things act against each other, where using one negates the need to use the other. This has damaged the DK's amazing healing ability to survive 1vx encounters because we now do not have class based viable heal for these situations. On top of the named buffs, 1.7 brought with it the 50% healing reduction which is considered by some as the nail in the coffin for GDB. 50% reduction turned a powerful burst heal into a drop in the proverbial bucket with buffs that many were already getting from tripots.
With this we look at damage. Now I have to point out that damage in pvp is about resource management, and therefore the best damage comes from use of having a strong resource spender along with good resource regeneration. For magic DK the spender has always been whip. While whip itself has not changed, it has been modified and due to changes in other areas been effected. Let's start with the popular morph for whip, Flame Lash. This skill has never been as great at burst damage as wrecking blow, or has the high starting damage of C - frag or suprised attack, and it lacks the natural CC of biting jabs. What this skill has always had going for it is the fact that it had moderate damage but could be used twice for the resource cost of one. Add in the fact that it had a strong direct heal, and the skill was perfect. Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource.
Finally we have to ask, "so hardcore, how can you say the class is fair and balanced if you acknowledge that these primary skills of the magic dk have been fundamentally changed." My answer is simple, In the past dk's used their natural utility to be op, I think now the trick is to use that same utility to out play your opponent. Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use, or you could spam a two for one attack that could not be avoided, or that you had an almost endless pool of resources because you could use a cheap ultimate (dragon leap) and almost refill all your resources; DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent. Before 1.6, magic dk could win engagements just because they were DK, and if you paired that with any amount of actual skill and that player would be thought of as OP.
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
You put a lot of thought to this but your conclusions are highly debatable.
1. "the DK by default has a ton of utility skills, skills that while not the most damaging, they provide a ton of uses. Even without an effective gap closer or a viable execute (the two points DK's have been arguing for since the beginning and rightfully so), the DK has skills that can effectively dominate a battlefield if used correctly. While some of the more popular skills for DK have been nerfed (I'm looking at you, reflective scales) the class has maintained that same natural utility"
This is vague. And wrong. Exactly what was this "utility"? If you meant the ability to create an environment where an immobile DK could have an advantage (cinderstorm), a group buff that actually increased the damage of all her attacks (Molten armaments), a self heal that actually functioned and provided other benefits, (Green Dragon's Blood), something that always got a non CC immune target into melee range (chains), a shield that actually deterred people from attacking you in melee (fragmented shield), I can assure that a DK has not maintained that natural utility.
2. "What has changed since 1.5, is the balance toward weapon and class skills. Prior to 1.6, class skills were king."
This isn't true either. The destro staff used to be a really effective weapon. Now it's garbage.
3. "Now with the reduction of damage in pvp, moderate damage abilities like flame lash are at best low damage abilities that require multiple uses to actually kill someone. This transforms the magic dk drastically because the primary spender is significantly underpowered when compared with some of the higher damage abilities I mentioned earlier. This leaves magic dk with ultimates as their primary source for big damage (at least that is the thinking among some long time magic dk's), and with the change to battle roar, the resource focus of using ultimates has been reduced to only be a benefit for primary resource."
If this is true, and I'll grant that, then your other conlcusion does not follow: "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game." No it's not. My sorc, templar, and even NB are not relegated to using ultimates (which are also far less prevalent in PvP than before) to kill and return their resources.
4. "Instead of exploiting the fact that you could literally play poorly and survive most encounters because you could use GDB as a get out of jail free card with seemingly endless use,"
*cough cough* NBs and sorcs. Once again, how does it follow that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
5. "DK class has to OUT PLAY the opponent."
LOL, wut? Such a statement abosiltely contradicts your assertion that "I think magic DK is perfectly fine and in balance with all other classes in the game."
6. "I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW!"
This is not true either. At launch many of the NB skills and passives were not working correctly and stamina was a joke. Magicka NBs did ok because Sap-tanking was really strong, but all those players who tried dual wielding or using a big sword were indeed lol until at least 1.4. Templars before 1.5 could not DPS for crap. While many of their skills are still a joke, they can put more damage more quickly on a target without using ultis than a magicka DK can dream. Stam sorcs were a waste of character slots because they have zero stam synergy and stam weapons weren't very good. They still dont have much stam synergy, but anyone - even a DK - can wrecking blow things and be really good. It's not so much that players "discovered" builds that previosusly a mystery, rather the game changed in a way to make these news builds possible. DKs have also tried to adapt the way the other classes have, but the game has changed in a way that undermines what the class is designed to do (stay in one spot and fight effectively).
You, and some other posters, seem to be under the impression that we DKs have not spent wasted hours of our life on ZoS's idiotic hamster-wheel grind creating and playing new build. You don't think I or other users haven't tried a destro-staff molten permanents build? You don't think we haven't tried walking around with a resto-staff? That we haven't tried a light armor fire-mage? That we haven't tried walking around in a heavy armor 3k+ spellpower build?
The DK isn't dead because we are incapable of defeating opponents with these builds. It's dead because it is easier, less frustrating, and most importunity more fun to defeat of opponents with the builds that other classes provide.
I think you missed the point...and frankly it seems nothing is going to make you get it. So I wish you luck with your reroll character or your alt.r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »hardcore_gmr wrote: »[snip]
Now, for the first time since this game launched, DK's have to relearn how to outplay opponents rather than simply overpowering them. I remember all the "lol night blade" threads, I remember the "templar is a joke" threads, I remember the "stam sorc is a waste of a character slot" threads; now these are builds that are thriving not because they have received some massive overhaul that has caused them to pass the DK (if anything they received a buff to catch up), but they have players that are learning the class and the build and therefore are making these classes something to be feared or respected in pvp rather than DK FTW! That to me spells diversity, it makes for interesting engagements and ultimately means actual BALANCE. Now it's our turn as DK'S to reimagine our class, to come up with something new. If we cannot, then yes, it will mean the death of the DK. I, for one, do not accept this premise and to new console DK's you shouldn't accept the death of the DK either, because as new players come to the class we are the ones that will relaunch DK 2.0. We must work to find ways to use a mixture of weapon and class skills to outplay our opponents, because I am a sure once someone comes up with a new power build (that doesn't require a massive amount of CP) many of these same people saying the DK is dead will be there to defend when the OP threads start again. And they will definitely start again, because if there is one thing this forum has taught me is that players will cry OP (or underpowered) if they feel their class is not meeting the challenge of defeating others.
Good luck with your DK 2.0 that no one has imagined before and doesn't need CP.
There are already builds out there that wreck in pvp and are fun, but they seem to all be from 300 or 400 plus CP players. My goal is simply to find a build that has that effect without needing that much CP.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qOyEld_A3SI
I can post a pve build if you like...
At 2:55 it looks like you are using macro
that is most certainly not me. lol.
Because I can!0 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Joy_Division this is true but as we all know most people go cookie cutter too rarely do you see Heavy Sorcerers and Nightblade Tank I have a Nightblade Stamina and Magic DPS, a Tank and a healer.Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void0 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darnathian wrote: »I thought I'd chime in on this and say I completely disagree with the OP.
I only have 33 CP. I rolled a DK last week, post patch I believe, I've leveled him to 37. I have no problems in pvp.
I have extended chains people off of walls - not keeps tho, true. Typically I silver bolts rose people while on reflective scale. They always back off.
My sustainability in battle is insane. I've gone verse 3 at a time and come out on top - even with NB fearing me and nerfing my armor.
I can even last up to a minute when largely outnumbered 10 to one. As far as I'm concerned the fact that I can even last that long against so many players at once is absolutely crazy.
I think this boils down to one thing - everyone hates change. But change happens. Read the patch notes, respec skills and attributes and go have some fun. Everything with DK is awesome IMO.
Thank you for adding your seven days experience. Zos please listen to more of these guys to help keep the DK nerf train going for another year
Or maybe you can listen to the experience of someone that plays the game without 600 cp and don't remember when Dragon Knight were nearly unkillable. He plays he fights he's not face rolling the keyboard and jumping from 5% to full healt in two seconds but he likes it. You're not the Gods of PvP like you have always been evolve to the times.
You know nothing about me or no builds I have one Nightblade for every role I walk off the beaten path don't change the fact that most Nightblade are DPS, most sorcerers are still magic with a raise of stamina build, most Dragon Knight still run Tanky builds and as they do Templars are mostly heals with the best mix of DPS and Tank builds.
Yes you can run any build, any race, any class you want. But find me 100 Pyro Mages and tell me how many are Dummer Dragon KnightsEdited by kendellking_chaosb14_ESO on October 11, 2015 11:18PMChaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void0 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Double postEdited by kendellking_chaosb14_ESO on October 11, 2015 11:18PMChaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭I did "adapt". I shelved my 2 pvp V16 DKS and rolled a NB. Mission complete. And why would I shelve 2 of my 3 V16 DKs that I've had since beta???? Well by your logic I either suck (which I very well could) and need to l2p or maaaybe it's because the class is actually in need of tweaking by ZOS to be competitive in pvp??? Hmmm.1 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »I did "adapt". I shelved my 2 pvp V16 DKS and rolled a NB. Mission complete. And why would I shelve 2 of my 3 V16 DKs that I've had since beta???? Well by your logic I either suck (which I very well could) and need to l2p or maaaybe it's because the class is actually in need of tweaking by ZOS to be competitive in pvp??? Hmmm.
I know many DKs that were unkillable DPS Tanks I mean in one week I could count on one hand how many times they would die, funny not one of them rerolled a Nightblade. You could have easily turned your DPS Tank to a straight DPS build but you just gave up and started a new toon from the bottom up.
As if Nightblade is easier burst damage builds work on all class. This time last year I would have gladly welcome more people to run a stamina Nightblade cause everyone were Dragon Knights and Sorcerers now Nightblade are the FOTM.
Been an Argonian Nightblade Archer from day damn one pick your play style and make it instead of oh no I can't run in five heavy hold block and drop super heals no fair.
Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void1 -
PhatGrimReaper✭✭✭✭✭When the balance is restored and DK once again reigns surpreme, I hope all these NBs remember how much they laughed at us for requesting balance. Zos has put off balancing DKs for so long that thet are likely to overshoot and make us the juggernauts of old again when they eventually get around doing something. When that happens it'll be interesting to see how many people 'adapt' and how many jump on the nerf train..... bring the tears!Fat Grim Reaper - (m)Dragon Knight AR28
F G R Junior - Templar AR26
This One Had Name Changed - Nightblade AR19
Fat Grim Streaker - Sorcerer AR15
M12-GM - Guardians of the Twelve-GM - Crown Store Heroes - ETU
RÀGE - R.I.P2 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hahaha funny how you just judge away on me without getting the full deal from me0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭To think I didn't try full tank and full heavy dps and full light dps is Unsat man. The story ends the same. ZOS needs to give DKs some tlc. Now I have 3 V16 DKs (only someone who loves DK class would have 3 btw) 1 V4 sorc and a brand new V7 NB that will be v16 before long. Guess what about the NB?? I find it is ridiculously efficient in pvp compared to my DKs atm.Edited by DUTCH_REAPER on October 12, 2015 2:57AM0