Alucardo wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that templar has the same issues and more broken skills, now and over its history. Templar has never had aglory day, apart from the healing role, and sadly a lot of out of class abilities are better choices. Playing templar warrior build, either as tank or dps just is not what it use to be. I feel your pain, but honestly i find dk still very easy to play, and vastly more synergistic with its abilities. Before anyone mentions the laserbeam, consider that we lost a tank ability to get it, one that was a deeply flawed analog of blur/cinders. As the warrior spec of templar i am more unhappy with the developments templar had gone through than any other class.

Why is it every time a DK makes a post to bring up the negative points of their class, a Templar decides to chime in? Please keep the focus on DK only here.

Thanks.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

chains is absolute rubbish in that it can either work, not work at all, or drag the player to the enemy. It is the most jarring skill to use that has peeved me right off since 1.6.

Imagine if you get exasperated 1/3 of the time you use a skill.

Id suggest rather than it being a morph issue for the player who uses chains to not be pulled if they are blocking. That would make the skill more versatile.

Dracane wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

How can anyone defend a magica DK in its current state? 99% of the people that say that they are "good" is either: A) People that arent max level. B ) People that have never played a DK.

DK class "Gapcloser" (Dosent even CC or snare and give free cc immunity. ROFL.) Is a joke.

DK survivability is also a joke unless COMPLETELY specced for survivability and tankyness. (Sorcs gets this for free by just maxing their main resource pool.) Dragonblood nerf was really to much togheter with the block changes.

High CP is almost a MUST in order to be on a equal level as other classes. And if we get this supposed cap soon and it is to low we´re even more screwed over.

People are missing that this thread is MAINLY but not only focused towards MAGICKA DKS. Flying blade, Pierce armour etc isnt really to beneficial to this discussion at all. Likewise is DK OP pre 1.6 "arguments". Everyclass could do ridiculous things back then.. (Most people seem to forget perma negate/Batswarm sorcs. Close to 100% dmg mitigation NBs and Blazing shield Templars dealing insane damage.)

I want 4 classes back in PvP!

(My viewpoint is mainly from a PvP perspective.)

I also think it's stupid that chains gives free CC immunity for almost nothing. But it still is a great 2 in 1 gap closer.
EACH gap closer shortly stuns the target and should grant immunity just like chains do. (yes, even critical rush does, it shortly roots the target)

And Chains not granting immunity at all would also be quite op, considering it interrupts and staggers the target.
However I can't agree Magicka Dks are weak or something, even though I would want to agree. They definately aren't
It's insane if played right. Maybe we could say that DKs are the hardest class to play ? Because each class is extremely bad if played wrong and DK has potential to be the mightiest if played right. Seems like few people even attempt to achieve that though, because the are doomed to be a turtle until they die, because they don't want to try things.

Theres nothign great about chains, its a wasted skillslot and it dosent even work half the time. Dont compare it to a gapcloser cus it isn't. It USED to be good cus you could contiuisly pull people to you / from walls etc and it was consistent in which direction it would pull you in.

Could you enlighten me what strenghts a magica DK have in a large scale AvAvA enviorment? As far as im aware all the ones we had got overnerfed instead of tweaked in a resonable way. What is this potential you speak of? The only "unique" things about DKs today is that they can interupt Templars healing ultimate.. yay for potential. '

I also happen to know that you have a very strong bias against DKs and have had so for quite some time. We´re not in 1.5 anymore, you might wanna do some catching up..

Noooo, I have nothing against DKs :O
I only try being realistic. Other classes got nerfed into the ground, DK is not amongst them.

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

Looks like I've been slacking on this topic. DK haters have had too long to cast their illusions.

I've play DK since launch. The entire time in 2.0 I played the tanky support role as it was the most interesting role (I don't consider pressing two buttons repeatedly is much fun or intelligent). 2.1 is another big hit which wiped out our remaining useful abilities.

Rayste wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I think DK is far from being R.I.P.
They are the hardest class to play when played right, have the highest DPS and can be super dangerous in pvp.
DK has the crown in 2 roles, tanking and DD. What more could a class ask for ?

Agreed. DK was so far ahead of the other classes that even now they reign supreme at resource management. A good stam DK is absolutely brutal and possibly the best 1v1 build available. OP wants to be super FOTM again methinks.

I don't think you're seeing what you're typing?

DKs are not the crown in anything but tanking unless you're sitting high and mighty with 700+ CPs. Plus to get that, we sacrifice everything else for it.

When magicka reigned supreme, the vast majority of players (including 'super fotm' DKs) agreeded that their should be a good variety of alternative builds and play-styles. Why should the rise of the new fotm be at the cost of the extinction of all other DKs?

You do realise that this thread is intended to get magicka & stamina builds and classes balanced, right? I'm refusing to join the "super FOTM again".

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I would argue that templar has the same issues and more broken skills, now and over its history. Templar has never had aglory day, apart from the healing role, and sadly a lot of out of class abilities are better choices. Playing templar warrior build, either as tank or dps just is not what it use to be. I feel your pain, but honestly i find dk still very easy to play, and vastly more synergistic with its abilities. Before anyone mentions the laserbeam, consider that we lost a tank ability to get it, one that was a deeply flawed analog of blur/cinders. As the warrior spec of templar i am more unhappy with the developments templar had gone through than any other class.

The difference is that DKs unwillingly had a lot of abilities dumped into the useless pile whereas templars unwillingly traded an ability for another that opened the door to DD roles. In my opinion, the concept of the templar class was to be survivable and strong at healing. You still have both of those and now DD too. AND you've still got many useful class abilities.

Sublime wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Good write up. However, I can't agree that Dragonknight is not able to burst down enemies.
It's obvious that a tank build can't and shouldn't be able to do that. But a DK build for dealing damage CAN and will destroy things fast.

My boyfriend is a stamina DK and omg, nobody puts so much pressure on me. He only uses heavy attack weaving and flying blade and not even my Overload spam can out damage what he does by doing this simple thing.
And the activation of burst for DKs is based on using some surprise. Wait for your enemy to go offensive, then dragon jump and spam all your damage. Just like Sorcerers, you need to time your burst and then it will be devasating.

You're referring to a Stamina DK, however, the following quote makes me think that, despite not being said specificly, this thread is about Magicka DK's.

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

• close range DoTs hit too hard? = Unstable Flame & Burning Breath - switched to stamina.

I just don't understand why people think DKs are king in PvP damage & survivability still. There is no such thing as a 'stamknight'. 95% of the abilities and skills stamina DKs use/benefit from are not class abilities. That means that; 5% of them benefit the build by playing as DK. It's frustratingly simple to use a very identical build with any other class. It's easy to argue that the other classes provide better benifits too. Stamblade & Stamplar are far superior to 'Stamina DKs Civilians'.

The few abilities that were still semi-useful to magicka DKs switched to stamina with dragon blood jumping on the useless pile too while it's ghost manifested it's self in Vigour (more available to all now than ever before). I can hear the complaints as if it were yesterday:

• NB: "I want an insta heal and large HoTs too. It's not fair they're the only class with it"

Don't get me started on stealth and surprise, please. This game is the only one that panders to those that want to pick how & when they engage in combat, those that want unreflectable ranged attacks that always crit and only want to attack players that have no counter and are unable to heal or get away effectively.

Artemisshrikes wrote: »

things you are wrong about
1.a good gab closer is critical rush
2.for tanks you can use extended chains and the pierce armor from 1 hand and shield,choking talons for tanking, defensive stance for tanking, coagulating blood for the tanks self heal,
3.to benefit groups they can use minor brutality
4. resources via ultimates +reduce block cost via champ points and armor + max resistence= new tanking
5. and many more things your wrong about

• a good gap* closer is also invasion (shielded charge is useless now with sb). However you failed to see the word "class" This is a problem that forces DKs to either use 1h&s or 2h.
• yes, talons are still useful, I agree, despite other classes having stronger abilities that are similar. However:
  • extended chains can't pull people from safe range positions anymore (a.k.a. walls & towers). They also apply CC immunity and all it takes is cloak or a dodge roll to be back to sq1.
  • pierce armour is a stamina weapon ability available to all. (which btw, has little use in PvP)
  • defensive stance is a stamina weapon ability available to all. (which btw, is a waste of a skill slot considering DKs have a class reflect and without 700+ CPs they won't be blocking often anyway)
  • coagulating blood is now heavily nerfed and next to useless.

• thanks, that's ever so generous of you. 5% weapon damage, I'm sure all the magicka users in your group will be jumping for joy (if/when it's fixed). Not to mention that major brutality is available to other classes via class, weapon & world skills.
• I'm not arguing that DKs are terrible at tanking, I guess you don't tank too much in PvP? Its not that fun after 5 months.
• a reliance on 700+ CPs for a class to be able to block or be a viable class specific build is absurd
• ill be happy to correct you if you ever dream them up

I guess that this DK is too naive to voice objection to the facts that:

• all DKs without a ridiculous amout of CPs MUST (to get anything done) find a large group, clone themselves to the majority in that group, and press 1 or 2 buttons non-stop until it's time to log off.
• it's perfectly fine to get available-for-all buffs that make a few focused stamina builds viable. BUT only at the expense of the vast majority of class skills, (which make them different from everyone else) rendered completely inefficient
• if/when CC immunity is fixed, steel tornado & shield breaker get balanced, that all the 'stamknights' will rush to the forums to complain about being nerfed and how quickly zos bend over backwards for you.

Artemisshrikes wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

You may say RIP but i've come across stam dk's who spam WB and use caltrop's/immovable/reflect. As a nightblade, there is nothing i can really do.

So maybe in certain situation's they can be bad but the one's who use talon's and caltrop's have great success.

I am currently building my nb around to counter dk's. They are the only one's who can effectively kill me at this point.

If your class is terrible at sustain, you will probably loose to a dk. That's the way i see it.

for my stamina DK I spam Steel Tornado after I apply the burning breath debuff. and I make sure to keep minor brutality with igneous weapons every 20 seconds

The idea here is to fire up Igneous Weapons to get the minor weapon damage via Mountain’s Blessing passive, slam a weapon power potions for major savagery and brutality giving you 10% weapon critical and 25% weapon power for 40 seconds (with Medicinal Use alchemy passive). As you close the distance, apply Burning Breath, reducing armor and damage over time (Dot) the target for 10 seconds. Get into melee range and apply another DoT with Engulfing Flame while using medium attack weave in between. A medium weave is simply holding down the left mouse for .5 seconds so it registers as a heavy attack. Now do 2-3 Rapid Strikes, rinse and repeat.
In multiple mob situations, spam Steel Tornado after you apply the Burning Breath debuff. Make sure to keep minor brutality with Igneous Weapons every 20 seconds. Also use potions on cool down as this is the most important part of your DPS. Only use Flawless ultimate in emergency situations for extra resource via Battle Roar passive. Swap to bar two as the boss reach 25% health for an ultimate and finisher and it’s that simple

Artemisshrikes wrote: »

then maybe you can indulge me on your idea of a good dk dps stamina build id really like to see your view of your setup

jebuspowers wrote: »

Everything is nerfed. Overnerfed. This game is one more bad patch away from being unplayable

Glantir wrote: »

Why are Chains so bad? If the enemy is not cc immun you pull him, if he is immun you get to him whats the difference to others charge skills?

Glantir wrote: »

Why are Chains so bad? If the enemy is not cc immun you pull him, if he is immun you get to him whats the difference to others charge skills?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya2AIA6sn5I

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Glantir wrote: »

Why are Chains so bad? If the enemy is not cc immun you pull him, if he is immun you get to him whats the difference to others charge skills?

Invasion; CCs and consistently brings you to your target.

Stampede; Snares enemies by 60% (IIRC). Consistently brings you to your target.

Lotus fan; High damage and also snares.

Toppling Charge; Consistently brings you to your target, CCs.

Extended chains..:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya2AIA6sn5I

Stop comparing this to a gapcloser. ITS NOT.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't know who @johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO is, but it's evident he has played a magicka DK and you have not.

Artemisshrikes wrote: »

DlSTORTlON wrote: »

I've stuck with my DK through thick and thin since launch. Yes, the DK renaissance was good.

The whining, here on the forums, especially from the dark brotherhood / rouge role-players, have resulted in many excessive nerfs and have cost us much. The time of staying in the shadows and keeping quite, is over. I don't want to play FOTM builds and want to sick with my DK, but the continual nerfs make the class less viable and wanting to be effective in PvP pushes them into a very small niche role.


Some quick facts for people that struggle understanding class balance:

• DKs are un-mobile
• DKs are supposed to be in-your-face
• DKs have heavy DoTs & close range skills
• DKs have only one, pathetic, distance ability
• DKs have no class gap-closer
• DKs are supposed to be tanky
• DKs have reflect to defend against long range attacks
• DKs now have very little to benefit groups
• DKs have no realistic class execute
• DKs resource management concept is supposed to be based around ultimate generation and battle roar
• DKs are very limited in skill choice and builds to be effective

What nerfs is this DK on about? He's just QQing, right?

• too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed.
• get pulled off walls when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers? = Extended Chains - nerfed.
• ultimates deal too much damage to huggers? = Magma Shell - nerfed.
• shields return damage to your hugs? = Fragmented Shield - nerfed.
• wanting to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth/long range? = Reflect - nerfed.
• ultimates used too often against hippy huggers?* = Ultimate Generation via Crits - removed.
• countering shield stackers with close range abilities that ignore shields is too annoying? = Lava Whip - nerfed.
• get leaped to when wanting to imperviously pew pew their attackers from high walls? = Dragon Leap (an ultimate) - nerfed.
• too many DoTs? = Flames of Oblivion - nerfed.
• a support ability to increase group's damage? = Molten Weapons - nerfed.
• too much sustain and idiots can't kill 'top-level' DKs? = Dragon Blood - nerfed.
• close range DoTs hit too hard? = Unstable Flame & Burning Breath - switched to stamina.
• 20% dodge chance in a defensive fixed position too annoying? = Cinder Storm - nerfed.
• able to interrupt multiple people from range? = Eruption - nerfed.
• still too much sustain and resources? = Battle Roar - nerfed again.
• still too many ultimates used? = Ultimate costs - increased.
• looking for alternative ways to manage resources? = Werewolf's passive stamina regen & Vampires regen - nerfed.
• still want to pew pew an un-mobile class from stealth? = Attacks from stealth now ignore reflect (and always crit)
• can't deal enough damage and kill DKs that reduce the cost of blocking? = Block - nerfed.

*yes i know another reason was healing springs spammers abused this for ultimate generation between fights


Other gripes:

• "Draw on your draconic blood to heal 33% of missing Health" should heal 33% of missing health and not 16%.
• too much damage to mindless yolo-ers charging into large AoE groups? Impulse = range nerfed. This dealt less damage than steel tornado and had the same range... but only impulse got nerfed. So now we have similar problems with a new generation of mindless drones spamming the same skill in large numbers. Fun and sporting gameplay? #SteelTornadoDrones #STDs #hashtag #imhipandrelevantbecauseiusehashtags

For those that will use the age-old 'perma-bats/banners' argument: DKs didn't create this problem nor did we exploit it (the minority that abused a 98% ultimate cost reduction were other classes too).

The backlash from our finest hour has been excessive in my opinion and has put us in a very dark place. Will the sun ever shine on our class again?

things you are wrong about
1.a good gab closer is critical rush
2.for tanks you can use extended chains and the pierce armor from 1 hand and shield,choking talons for tanking, defensive stance for tanking, coagulating blood for the tanks self heal,
3.to benefit groups they can use minor brutality
4. resources via ultimates +reduce block cost via champ points and armor + max resistence= new tanking
5. and many more things your wrong about

Bashev wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

But it is a better protection against them than blocking, because it makes me immune to their most important damage and when timed right, I can use their own damage against them. Melees however are harder. My way of dealing with them is too put so much pressure on them, that they need to play defensive, which is easy to achieve. The reason why I still play Magicka DK is a simple thing: Detection potions aren't available with Stamina restore. And I NEED those or the master race destroys me. There are tooooo many Nightblades, going without this is suicide for me.

You want to tell me that you as a magicka DK can kill NB for 15 seconds? Teach me master.

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why do people keep bringing up stamina DKs? Do you want to know why stamina DKs are actually pretty good? Because they do not use DK skills. When you say a DK with wrecking blow and flying blade is great, you are saying that wrecking blow and flying blade are good skills.

@Dracane - From what you write, it sounds like you do not have much experience at all trying to play a DK in PvP. Chains is a "great" PvP gapcloser? When was the last time you played a magicka DK? Beta? I don't know who @johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO is, but it's evident he has played a magicka DK and you have not.

Fellow Templars, I know our class has its issues, but the magicka version of the class is miles ahead of the DK; they are not even in the same league. A magicka templar has a class gap closer that allows they to dual wield swords for spell damage instead of wasting their stamina on a low damage version. A magicka templar can actually use their class skill to heal themselves. Puncturing sweep > whip spam. Templars have an execute. Templars cleanse DKs silly Dots.

Magicka DKs were actually quite limited in 1.6; the illusion of a powerful DK was kept alive by experienced players who perma-blocked in heavy armor, but even in doing so they didn't really kill many opponents and had no choice but to die gloriously when they got zerged.

I said it's a 2 in 1 gap closer. You either pull your target or bring yourself do it. Chains have something special and I like it.
The only nerf in the world I can recognize on my DK is the stamina block thing. I am still playing dual wield flame DK and I used to blockcast back in 1.6. And to be honest, I only needed this against Sorcerers and other projectile casters. Well, now I have to use scales, which kills my damage a bit.

But it is a better protection against them than blocking, because it makes me immune to their most important damage and when timed right, I can use their own damage against them. Melees however are harder. My way of dealing with them is too put so much pressure on them, that they need to play defensive, which is easy to achieve. The reason why I still play Magicka DK is a simple thing: Detection potions aren't available with Stamina restore. And I NEED those or the master race destroys me. There are tooooo many Nightblades, going without this is suicide for me.