Should Vigor only take ALLIANCE RANK 5 TO GET?

Garion · May 2015

No

Lava_Croft wrote: »

theweakminded wrote: »

His change needs to happen yesterday... even if its rank 6 or 7. To the op saying rank 5 in a few days... some people have lives and do not play 20hrs a day. Casual players should not be penalized because you want it to take a year to get. Unless you think resto staff skills should take a year to train as well.

That is a nonsense argument. Casual players do not 'penalized', they just play less. By your logic, casual players should get more of everything, just because they play less. If you want your precious PvE armor sets, you will have to invest in PvE. If you want your precious PvP skills, you will have to invest in PvP. Getting to Rank 5 is not even close to being an investment.

This about sums it up nicely ^

Besides, vigor is insanely strong. Giving it to everyone (which is what reducing it to rank 5 will effectively do) is going to have a severe impact on in game balance and will likely lead to numerous calls for a nerf. If I were using it, or if I wanted it so desperately, I wouldn't be so quick to call for it to be unlocked so easily.

Zlater · May 2015

Yes

Besides, vigor is insanely strong. Giving it to everyone (which is what reducing itnicelyk 5 will effectively do) is going to have a severe impact on in game balance and will likely lead to numerous calls for a nerf. If I were using it, or if I wanted it so desperately, I wouldn't be so quick to call for it to be unlocked so easily.

You're right.
What vigor is though, it's a PvE and PvP skill locked behind a a max lvl PvP wall. it's super cool that we get skill unlocks for PvPing, but this shouldn't be one, heck why is it even in the PvP line? When we look at all as the other skills it's bunched with, they are all purposed to have maximum utility in Cyrodiil, with only little function outside of PvP.

Why not drop its lvl requirement or replace trap beast for it?
Answer: because PvPrs want something really cool to show for their commitment too. (agreed)
Why not consider a skill like a single use single target negate for the last spot, or some really strong group regeneration passive while in Cyrodiil, that gets reduced when outside of Cyrodiil; aswell as moving Vigor?
Answer:

All I'm trying to say is that something is going to have to go in its place. Unless that skill is 'Vicious nose picking' or 'Scratch your chocolate launcher' it might just be alot better than we think it's going to be.

Coopersnow · June 2015

Yes

You pvp-ers ane cimplaining about gettin the monster sets which are easy to get you just do one dungeon a day and about master weapons with nice traits.Im a casual player rank 5 pvp i play like two hours a day do you know how much AP does it take to get ravager set or morang or hawk eye or shadow or cyro light.You can buy those for like 100k but nobody has that much money and if a player like me that doesent play 24 hours a day it would take me 2 years to get rank 10 in pvp and you also said that you want the undaunted skill line those skills are [snip] and to level them to 9 takes like a month of doing just one gold key per day compare that to about a year or more pvp for me.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Quantine · June 2015

No

As a passionate PvP player, I don't really understand why Vigor is so important for PvE. Isn't PvE a part of the game where you have tanks to taunt and healers to heal? I don't do end-game PvE, but would like to know what makes stamina dps players not viable for end-game PvE, if they don't have Vigor?

My DK reached Assault 10 (AvA 24) loooong ago and it was really nice to have Vigor in PvP while I was trying out a stamina build. The skill is really nice, I admit. Sadly, I don't need it on my DK anymore, cause I am back to Magicka DK

, but I would really love to have it on my stamina NB which is Assault 8 only (AvA 18)

As a vamp stamina NB coming form a DK main, it was quite hard to sustain, buuuuuuut I managed to find a build and rotation that I feel finally works for me WITHOUT Vigor! It was a struggle and certainly a l2p issue, so I actually think it is a good thing that Vigor needs so much time to unlock. You need the time and practice to learn your class and experiment long enough to sustain without it and then get it as a boost when you reach a high Assault/Support rank. That's what it is, a great boost. For you and for your group. Not sure if it has to be that high though.. maybe 8 or 9 will suffice. But it's definitely doable to get a good build without Vigor and I am sure many people are doing good without Vigor.

Actually it doesn't take thaaaat much time to level AvA ranks. Just join a good PvP guild and learn. If you're regular, you will reach AvA 24 in maybe 2 months of playing every day or even shorter, depending on how good your group is and how much time you can invest. If you don't play every day and just 1-2 hours, it will take much longer ofc.

Sensesfail13 · June 2015

Yes

Id be alright with this skill being unlocked beside Caltrops.

Wreuntzylla · June 2015

Sleevez340 wrote: »

Vigor is ridiculous. Ppl with vigor never die. Unless you have a full out balls to the wall dps spec, dpsing through vigor is hard. So if everyone had it, this games pvp would just be a whole other version of stupid.

So only a select few should have it, right? Better to have a few walk around like emperors than everyone! .....

qq

Quantine wrote: »

As a passionate PvP player, I don't really understand why Vigor is so important for PvE. Isn't PvE a part of the game where you have tanks to taunt and healers to heal? I don't do end-game PvE, but would like to know what makes stamina dps players not viable for end-game PvE, if they don't have Vigor?

My DK reached Assault 10 (AvA 24) loooong ago and it was really nice to have Vigor in PvP while I was trying out a stamina build. The skill is really nice, I admit. Sadly, I don't need it on my DK anymore, cause I am back to Magicka DK , but I would really love to have it on my stamina NB which is Assault 8 only (AvA 18)

As a vamp stamina NB coming form a DK main, it was quite hard to sustain, buuuuuuut I managed to find a build and rotation that I feel finally works for me WITHOUT Vigor! It was a struggle and certainly a l2p issue, so I actually think it is a good thing that Vigor needs so much time to unlock. You need the time and practice to learn your class and experiment long enough to sustain without it and then get it as a boost when you reach a high Assault/Support rank. That's what it is, a great boost. For you and for your group. Not sure if it has to be that high though.. maybe 8 or 9 will suffice. But it's definitely doable to get a good build without Vigor and I am sure many people are doing good without Vigor.

Actually it doesn't take thaaaat much time to level AvA ranks. Just join a good PvP guild and learn. If you're regular, you will reach AvA 24 in maybe 2 months of playing every day or even shorter, depending on how good your group is and how much time you can invest. If you don't play every day and just 1-2 hours, it will take much longer ofc.

It takes you two months to learn a new class??? Ouch.

CN_Daniel · June 2015

It just needs to be account wide. I have a two +lvl 7s, but neither have vigor. If I had combined my play time I would easily have it. Shouldn't be punished for liking to play with 2 different toon types.

Bouvin · June 2015

No

Spiked Bone Shield + Rally > Vigor.

Just saying.. and neither Spike Bone Shield nor Rally is that hard to get.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · June 2015

No

Umm I took Two and a half months off and I don't like AoEs (if you kill the one person you hit you can stealth away and stay hidden cause all the people you hit are dead) so I don't "tag" many people so I don't get a lot of AP and I'm rank 33 Alliance War Level 10 is Rank 24

So I don't see the point of dropping the level for it. Undaunted takes forever unless you do the dailies twice a day and clear dungeons yet people have had Undaunted maxed for a long time. PvPer that PvP and Raid are high level PvPing with a few toons will slow you down just like PvE just like you can grind XP you can grind AP play get l 100,000 per camp on day two.

The problem here is that you want to do three hours of work to get PvP rewards for that were made for long term end game the war is not a Cave that can be cleared in 3 minutes it's a fight between 3 strong armies so it should take longer

Milky · June 2015

Yes

Yes, the passives should be lower too. Putting powerful passives and actual skills which might be a core component of a pvp build behind a time gate that large... it's unfair to players who dedicate some of their time to playing other classes and characters.

If alliance rank was by account, and not my character, sure.... I wouldn't mind at all the time it takes to get to alliance war and support 10.

For all those who play one and only one character, I'm sure its fine to have these to unlock and feel like you have achieved something. For someone who plays more than one character, it's completely unfair. It's too much power that you won't be able to get access to in any reasonable amount of time.

I come from the mindset of a pvp player. I enjoy pve on occasion but my real passion is pvp. If you were to ask me, we shouldn't even have to level up our character to pvp. Outcomes of pvp battles should determined by player skill, and crafted builds. We shouldn't have to grind pve, or pvp, to gear, get skills, etc. Unless it can be done in a reasonable amount of time.

But that's just how I see it. I'd rather have my PvE and my PvP separate. Grind gear and such for pve, and when I pvp, even playing field based on player skill.

Quantine · June 2015

No

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Sleevez340 wrote: »

Vigor is ridiculous. Ppl with vigor never die. Unless you have a full out balls to the wall dps spec, dpsing through vigor is hard. So if everyone had it, this games pvp would just be a whole other version of stupid.

So only a select few should have it, right? Better to have a few walk around like emperors than everyone! .....

qq

Quantine wrote: »

As a passionate PvP player, I don't really understand why Vigor is so important for PvE. Isn't PvE a part of the game where you have tanks to taunt and healers to heal? I don't do end-game PvE, but would like to know what makes stamina dps players not viable for end-game PvE, if they don't have Vigor?

My DK reached Assault 10 (AvA 24) loooong ago and it was really nice to have Vigor in PvP while I was trying out a stamina build. The skill is really nice, I admit. Sadly, I don't need it on my DK anymore, cause I am back to Magicka DK , but I would really love to have it on my stamina NB which is Assault 8 only (AvA 18)

As a vamp stamina NB coming form a DK main, it was quite hard to sustain, buuuuuuut I managed to find a build and rotation that I feel finally works for me WITHOUT Vigor! It was a struggle and certainly a l2p issue, so I actually think it is a good thing that Vigor needs so much time to unlock. You need the time and practice to learn your class and experiment long enough to sustain without it and then get it as a boost when you reach a high Assault/Support rank. That's what it is, a great boost. For you and for your group. Not sure if it has to be that high though.. maybe 8 or 9 will suffice. But it's definitely doable to get a good build without Vigor and I am sure many people are doing good without Vigor.

Actually it doesn't take thaaaat much time to level AvA ranks. Just join a good PvP guild and learn. If you're regular, you will reach AvA 24 in maybe 2 months of playing every day or even shorter, depending on how good your group is and how much time you can invest. If you don't play every day and just 1-2 hours, it will take much longer ofc.

It takes you two months to learn a new class??? Ouch.

Haha, I never said that, l2r, sorry.

Alcast · June 2015

Quantine wrote: »

As a passionate PvP player, I don't really understand why Vigor is so important for PvE. Isn't PvE a part of the game where you have tanks to taunt and healers to heal? I don't do end-game PvE, but would like to know what makes stamina dps players not viable for end-game PvE, if they don't have Vigor?

If Stam DDs have Vigor, what do you need healers for.

Arena 3x DD 1x DD/Tank

And the moment Repentance scales of stamina too, R.I.P Magicka Healers (Especially NB/DK/Sorc healers)

Quantine · June 2015

No

Alcast wrote: »

Quantine wrote: »

As a passionate PvP player, I don't really understand why Vigor is so important for PvE. Isn't PvE a part of the game where you have tanks to taunt and healers to heal? I don't do end-game PvE, but would like to know what makes stamina dps players not viable for end-game PvE, if they don't have Vigor?

If Stam DDs have Vigor, what do you need healers for.

Arena 3x DD 1x DD/Tank

Hmm, ok, I see now.. From your point of view, I can well understand the frustration of PvEers....

Still I find Assault/Support 5 way too low a requirement for a strong skill like Vigor... From my PvPer perspective 8 would be ideal. However, I guess PvEers and PvPers can meet somewhere in the middle :-) But since ZOS don't really know their own game's meta and don't really care about what people think, we'll never get a very fair solution -.-

However, is it really so hard to sustain without Vigor as a stamina DPS without healers? You've probably tested a lot, but still, I am just wondering if the same efficiency is possible without Vigor, but with some other way to sustain, like with Rally and/or some class-based heal.... Maybe there is a solution to the challenge to do a build without Vigor. Would certainly be interesting to me to find one if I were a PvEer :-)

Alcast wrote: »

And the moment Repentance scales of stamina too, R.I.P Magicka Healers (Especially NB/DK/Sorc healers)

Oh, good point!

And thanks for your answer to my curiosity

Ravenfrost · June 2015

No

Should be 10, do not change to 5!!

I just got 10 one month after vigor was released and i have been playing since release. I mainly played solo/duo small groups, only the past 3 months have I grouped in 8+ man groups. If you run with a solid group all the time, you can easily get assault 10 much faster. If you drop it down, you are going to ruin all sense of accomplishment in this game and you are catering to people who can't pvp well. This is a MMO, it isn't supposed to be easy mode and give you everything with minimal effort.

If you HAVE to change it to a lower rank then 8 is the lowest I would recommend, otherwise, you are going to have rank 5 stamina zergs spamming vigor, encouraging further zerg play and lag issues from the zergs.

You can get rank 5 in ONE day if you are a good pvper and run with decent players.

Also, do not make assault ranks account wide either, that will encourage more flavor of the month builds if you can freely switch between assault rank 10 characters when you never actually pvp'd up to rank 10 on that character...

Milky · June 2015

Yes

Ravenfrost wrote: »

You can get rank 5 in ONE day if you are a good pvper and run with decent players.

I'm not sure what you're doing, but I have 3 characters that are 5+, and this isn't true, or even remotely close to true.

Sensesfail13 · June 2015

Yes

Milky wrote: »

Ravenfrost wrote: »

You can get rank 5 in ONE day if you are a good pvper and run with decent players.

I'm not sure what you're doing, but I have 3 characters that are 5+, and this isn't true, or even remotely close to true.

Unless youre a cheating AP farmer which there are a lot of so *shrug* could happen.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · June 2015

No

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

Milky wrote: »

Ravenfrost wrote: »

You can get rank 5 in ONE day if you are a good pvper and run with decent players.

I'm not sure what you're doing, but I have 3 characters that are 5+, and this isn't true, or even remotely close to true.

Unless youre a cheating AP farmer which there are a lot of so *shrug* could happen.

XP, Undaunted for Passives/Set , CoA Set grinds are already happening in PvE and is complete normal and any different for PvP plus I like the fact that you can't just get everything in the game in two weeks. Having long term rewards to work towards beyond just doing something with a random chance to get something is nice

Thraben · June 2015

Yes

I typically play melee healers. Even as a nighblade I can't do it well enough, not because I'm unskilled but because Templars are so much better with their laughable 2-skill healing rotation. In order to heal in PvP I have to switch to my Templar instead of grinding the rank with my preferred toons.

The two healing skills which would improve class balance are gated behind PvP ranks. So if you want to improve the situation, it is the right choice to lower the rank needed for them.

I would be perfectly happy, however, if you only coul heal others with it, not yourself, so that high dps stamina builds wont't be op.

Btw when does the change come?

Ace_SiN · June 2015

Yes

Here's my problem with Vigor and it's not just limited to that one skill, but the ENTIRE Alliance War tree. I have a NB, Sorc, and a Templar I switch back and forth to almost all day(2 are V14 and 1 is V12). I'm also working on a DK. If my Alliance Rank was shared across ALL chars, then I wouldn't mind the grind at all. However, It's just another system that penalizes those that enjoy playing more than 1 char.

The alliance rank grind is similar to most hardcore sandbox MMOs I played. The difference is having more than 1 char in those games were akin to a cosmetic change since my 1 char could do and be any and everything. That's not the case with ESO. Now it can be argued that Rank 5 is too low, but Rank 10 is definitely way too high unless they make it account bound.

Wreuntzylla · June 2015

Never mind, arguing reading comprehension on the forums is like arguing portion control at a pie eating contest.

R0M2K · June 2015

If Vigor drops to 5 rank in the Alliance skill line, then the Undaunted pasives should drop positions too in the Undaunted skill line.

danyels64eb17_ESO · June 2015

Yes

VIgor At Alliance Rank 5 .. stupid things happened in ESO .. but this would be the base bricks which would bring down the tower . I dont think you understand the *** u unleash with this change .
Don't listen to the pve folks that want to get 1 hour of pvp a week and have all the tools with close to zero knowledge of pvp. You see them joining a group to get ap .. but most dont even know how a siege works ,how a keep can be
captured , how to repair .. basic ***, but they all rage that it takes so long to get it. If anything .. they should add a few more ranks and place both magicka detonation and vigor , up the line . Not the other way around .

OdinForge · June 2015

No

danyels64eb17_ESO wrote: »

VIgor At Alliance Rank 5 .. stupid things happened in ESO .. but this would be the base bricks which would bring down the tower . I dont think you understand the *** u unleash with this change .
Don't listen to the pve folks that want to get 1 hour of pvp a week and have all the tools with close to zero knowledge of pvp. You see them joining a group to get ap .. but most dont even know how a siege works ,how a keep can be
captured , how to repair .. basic ***, but they all rage that it takes so long to get it. If anything .. they should add a few more ranks and place both magicka detonation and vigor , up the line . Not the other way around .

So why did you vote "yes".

-_-

Nausea · June 2015

Yes

Let me just say that as a medium built stamina Nightblade it is hard for me to stay alive. My only defense is to stealth and run. If you're using dual wield or bow, you're pretty screwed on self heals until you're able to get vigor. I love my build but literally my biggest flaw is not having an effective way to get my health up.

CN_Daniel · June 2015

I have an alliance rank 20 and a 19 toon. It's crazy that I don't have vigor given the time I've put in on those toons when combined.

rfennell_ESO · June 2015

The problem is that those without vigor are at a huge disadvantage to those with it.

Making it rank5 solves that, but also pushes stamina builds harder into the direction of being best or better than magicka.

AtmaDarkwolf · October 2015

Yes

necro post, but this entire thread is a perfect example of whats wrong with the people who pvp.

Look at the arguments.

Joe, who has max ranking(lv10 in both trees) wants it to stay at 10.

Peter, who has lv 8 in both trees, wants it to be at 8

Etc etc: ALL agree its 'very powerful' and MANY agree 'its needed' to 'be competitive' in pvp. But at same time THEY WANT TO KEEP IT EXCLUSIVE.

Sadly, most of those who DO have it, got it due to many exploits .Some of which people 'benefited' from while not being the 'cause' but just the same, you 'gained' silly amounts of AP much faster than should have been possible from 'normal play' Even today, the 'best' way to gain ap, the fastest way, is sadly, 'exploiting' the system, and not 'real playing' (IE: defending a keep or taking one over SHOULD gain a fair bit, but its better to take a keep, let it drop, take it back, farm player kills, etc. Nothing one would do in 'a real world defense' example. To make it 'proper' if I was dev, I'd make points earned by total time said keep was under your control, how long you 'defended' said keep, and a fair, not huge, but substantial reward of ap, for taking a keep over and 'keeping' it for 10+minutes.)

Hopefully those who pvp and DO want competitive 'enjoyable' combat in cyro will see that hiding 'super powers' that UTTERLY set one high above the others (IE: more advantage) which only make it that much more 'unbalanced' toward the 'new guy' is NOT a sign of your 'great skill'

Its just another example of player A in iron lv 1 gear is gonna be worse at the same thing player B in gold V16 gear is gonna be.