MikeB wrote: »

Guild Stores and inherently trade guilds are one of the worst parts of ESO. As I stated in one of the hundreds, if not thousands, of previous threads just like this one most trade guilds require a fee that cost several thousand to several million more than the cost to get their trader for the week then claim the excess gold goes to their raflles and whatnot, and this is just not the case. I have yet to be in a Trade Guilde, and I've been in the largest on XB1, that the raffles cover the excess gold they get everyweek from fee's and take-in from the items being posted.

Those that claim a centralized auction house are over inflated obviously havent played many MMO's or at least MMO's with a decent following. Its impossible for one person, or even several, to control a market if there are enough people posting items at a lower reasonable price, they just wont have the money to buy them all out, again if there's enough players posting in the AH.

except that every guide to every MMO with an AH on how to make gold/currency lists their prime way of doing so is to corner the AH market, usually on things like consumables. Buy the market out and sell at inflated prices. If people undercut you, since you've held the majority of such items for a time, you'll have enough money to either buy it all out and keep things at your prices, or just flood the market with said item at a profit loss until your competition gives up and then reinflate your prices. That cannot be done with ESO system. At all. Standard practice for EVERY MMO with an AH though. Go ahead, go read any and every "how to make gold/currency" guide for all those other MMO's, especially the ones with a decent following.

You people follow guides on the internet on how to make fake gold? Did you pay for these guides? These guides are there to generate traffic for the website to make more real money off people viewing and clicking on the ads running, nothing more.

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

I'm curious then, since you're an economist, what your thoughts are on the differences of Keynesian vs Austrian practices, and how the one in practice seems to differ so greatly from it's theory while the other maintains relatively even numbers across both it's practical and theoritical? Also what are your thoughts on Hayak and Mises, or are you more inclined towards the Krugman schools of though?

Not to obfuscate the OP with these conjectures though.

imnotanother wrote: »

zstewart2015 wrote: »

The guild store system sucks. Not only do the charge you for the right to sell items in the store, now one if the guilds I am in is trying to tell everyone what price to sell items by suggesting that undercutting others prices is bad for the guild and that they are watching and noticing when it is done. Some kind of veiled threat. I guess we are supposed to search the guild store every time we want to sell something and match other guild members prices, so I guess I will be selling malachite shards for $125000 gold or 1 mountain flower for $10000 gold just so nobody gets all butt hurt because I thought their price was ridiculous and wanted to sell my items at a more reasonable price. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out another problem was with guild stores run by dictators.

As your former Guild Master, I have to say that I wish you would have brought up your concerns at one of the guild meetings or jumped in the Guild chat and talked to one of the several members in there....but not once were you involved in the guild and to be honest, you weren't even on the radar for being an undercutter. But thank you for showcasing your self-guilt and excusing yourself from the guild.

To clarify, since you were clearly confused, we don't charge you to sell anything...We have a one time membership fee (to help raise funds for the weekly trader). Many members, who help bank roll the Guild, were upset that many newcomers, like yourself, are coming in to the guild and slashing established prices in half, in order to make a sale that day.
That type of business model hurts our income as individuals and as a guild, making it impossible to raise the proper funds through sales tax alone to acquire high market Guild Traders, that we hire each week.

I am not going to attempt to hold the hand of 500 members when it comes to how to sell in the store. But I will slap the wrist when it negatively affects the Guild.

Good riddance to you and good luck.

Who decides what the "established prices" are and what constitutes "undercutting"? The system described above is merely what we call "price fixing" with elaborations. The guild system has become a "cartel", basically, with a few large, powerful guilds wielding huge market power since there's no "free market" to allow individuals to bring prices down via competition. I don't blame the guilds or guild leaders at all, don't get me wrong -- they didn't establish this system, after all; no, they're merely behaving as efficient actors given the market-distorting rules imposed by ESO. The parallels to the real world (unions, government-granted monopolies, the rise of cartels when the government has forbid there to be markets in certain products) are obvious.

Anyway, carry on, everyone. I find this amusing.

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

It's real simple... centralized selling favors the buyer whereas separated selling favors the seller. I personally would much rather have the latter. I've played games where the selling was centralized (Guild Wars 2 is a prime example). The prices for everything (except for the most desirable/rare items) normalized to just barely more than what can you vender items for. It was impossible to make enough capital to purchase anything worthwhile unless you specifically devoted time to "playing the auction house". It's not something I considered fun and was a major factor in deciding to leave the game.

As much as it sucks sometimes having to travel to different guild traders looking for what you need, it's infinitely better than a centralized AH IMO.

imnotanother wrote: »

zstewart2015 wrote: »

The guild store system sucks. Not only do the charge you for the right to sell items in the store, now one if the guilds I am in is trying to tell everyone what price to sell items by suggesting that undercutting others prices is bad for the guild and that they are watching and noticing when it is done. Some kind of veiled threat. I guess we are supposed to search the guild store every time we want to sell something and match other guild members prices, so I guess I will be selling malachite shards for $125000 gold or 1 mountain flower for $10000 gold just so nobody gets all butt hurt because I thought their price was ridiculous and wanted to sell my items at a more reasonable price. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out another problem was with guild stores run by dictators.

As your former Guild Master, I have to say that I wish you would have brought up your concerns at one of the guild meetings or jumped in the Guild chat and talked to one of the several members in there....but not once were you involved in the guild and to be honest, you weren't even on the radar for being an undercutter. But thank you for showcasing your self-guilt and excusing yourself from the guild.

To clarify, since you were clearly confused, we don't charge you to sell anything...We have a one time membership fee (to help raise funds for the weekly trader). Many members, who help bank roll the Guild, were upset that many newcomers, like yourself, are coming in to the guild and slashing established prices in half, in order to make a sale that day.
That type of business model hurts our income as individuals and as a guild, making it impossible to raise the proper funds through sales tax alone to acquire high market Guild Traders, that we hire each week.

I am not going to attempt to hold the hand of 500 members when it comes to how to sell in the store. But I will slap the wrist when it negatively affects the Guild.

Good riddance to you and good luck.

Wow, so that's the kind of nonsense that goes on in the console world? On PC/NA, price competition is the norm. I don't know of any guilds that have rules like that. The market sorts itself out, and any price-fixing happens on very small scales (two sellers whispering each other). If someone cuts prices to move goods, that's their right. If their price is too low, they'll sell out too fast and can't restock, and people will be forced to buy the higher-priced items--essentially, the "undercutter" just lost potential profit, but that was their choice. If they can price it low and restock it as fast as it sells, then maybe that's the market's way of saying that the "established" price is too damn high, in which case, the "undercutter" is simply profiting from the poor pricing choices of their guildmates. Supply and demand is fluid, and sometimes, prices fall, and sometimes, prices rise, when people realize that things are selling so fast that they can't keep it in stock.

Major hubs like Mournhold, Rawl, and Craglorn usually see a lot of cutthroat price competition. But they also move tremendous volumes because that's where people go to find the best deals. There are guilds in other locations that rely on more on higher prices than higher volumes for their sales. In either case, the prices come naturally, not through any mass-scale cartel price fixing like what you describe.

Oh, and if someone in your guild slashes their price in half, and you are convinced that price is just too low, why not just buy that item, relist it higher, and make a tidy profit from the flip? If your "established" price really is the price that the market will bear, then you just made easy profit.

You know what would solve the problem of all these so called "greedy" Guilds? Or enhance the Guild Trader experience?

Allowing players outside of your Guild and even players not in a Guild to sell at your stand. The only thing you gain from outsiders is 10% of that players sold profits to go towards re-hiring. Whilst in the Guild, that tax is reduced to 5%.

I've yet to join a Trading Guild, so I have a vague idea as to what they like to do. I just hear silly stories like many have posted in this thread. But what I suggested above makes sense to me.

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

But aren't you fascinated by the price curves and how changes in gameplay have unintended effects on prices? I'm not an economist, but I love watching that stuff.

And checking a global auction house (or any guild trader) will only tell you the "current global price" of the stuff that has NOT sold.

code65536 wrote: »

IKilled007 wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

I'm curious then, since you're an economist, what your thoughts are on the differences of Keynesian vs Austrian practices, and how the one in practice seems to differ so greatly from it's theory while the other maintains relatively even numbers across both it's practical and theoritical? Also what are your thoughts on Hayak and Mises, or are you more inclined towards the Krugman schools of though?

Not to obfuscate the OP with these conjectures though.

I'm Austrian School. My father is a professor in the Austrian School tradition, 40+ years now. Mises? Greatest economist who ever lived, no close second. If I had to rank economists, it would go Mises, Böhm von Bawerk, Rothbard, Hayek (spelled with an "e" ), my dad, Hoppe, and then maybe Menger and Ludwig Lachmann.

Krugman is a buffoon, like Keynes was. They're not real economists, they're econostrologers.

Austrian school is just faith-based economics, turning a blind eye to inconvenient evidence and reality. Yes, markets do work, and markets are great, most of the time. But markets are comprised of people. Imperfect, irrational people, in an imperfect world of asymmetric information and externalities. Markets work, but they are imperfect. Keynes, Krugman, and the other "buffoons" are simply realists who dismiss the fairy-tale world of the Austrian school; it's not that they don't support market economics, but they just don't support it so blindly that that they dismiss any attempt at addressing and mitigating some of the inherent, unavoidable pitfalls and imperfections.

LOL

kupacmac wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

You know what would solve the problem of all these so called "greedy" Guilds? Or enhance the Guild Trader experience?

Allowing players outside of your Guild and even players not in a Guild to sell at your stand. The only thing you gain from outsiders is 10% of that players sold profits to go towards re-hiring. Whilst in the Guild, that tax is reduced to 5%.

I've yet to join a Trading Guild, so I have a vague idea as to what they like to do. I just hear silly stories like many have posted in this thread. But what I suggested above makes sense to me.

The average/normal trading guilds are nothing like these horror stories that you hear. Most just do some sort of optional gambling system (raffle, poker, etc) and/or have minimum sales requirements. Some will charge fees, but you can find that out before joining and decide if it's worth it (most are fairly cheap). Don't be afraid to join one or two because it costs you nothing to leave if you don't like it.

Yeah I'm aware the negative stories can rise to the top. I'm not afraid to join one though or deterred. I just don't have a need for more Gold at the moment, and that I also prefer to only have one Guild if I can get away with it.

The whole price-fixing thing with ESO guilds is pretty interesting, given that historically real guilds actually did this. (Note, I'm not a fan of price-fixing and I'm really glad the FTC exists in the real world. It's interesting to see how art imitates life though. Economics really is the dismal science.)

You all must be on console. The price fixing guilds died out ages ago on PC. You'll eventually find all your controlling measures don't work if guilds that don't employ these silly controls set up shop next to you.

If you don't like how a guild is run, join a different one or start your own. Stomping your feet and demanding the whole trade system be changed because you can't stand up for yourself makes you look ridiculous. So many of these threads lately. I wish a mod would merge them.

code65536 wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

zstewart2015 wrote: »

The guild store system sucks. Not only do the charge you for the right to sell items in the store, now one if the guilds I am in is trying to tell everyone what price to sell items by suggesting that undercutting others prices is bad for the guild and that they are watching and noticing when it is done. Some kind of veiled threat. I guess we are supposed to search the guild store every time we want to sell something and match other guild members prices, so I guess I will be selling malachite shards for $125000 gold or 1 mountain flower for $10000 gold just so nobody gets all butt hurt because I thought their price was ridiculous and wanted to sell my items at a more reasonable price. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out another problem was with guild stores run by dictators.

As your former Guild Master, I have to say that I wish you would have brought up your concerns at one of the guild meetings or jumped in the Guild chat and talked to one of the several members in there....but not once were you involved in the guild and to be honest, you weren't even on the radar for being an undercutter. But thank you for showcasing your self-guilt and excusing yourself from the guild.

To clarify, since you were clearly confused, we don't charge you to sell anything...We have a one time membership fee (to help raise funds for the weekly trader). Many members, who help bank roll the Guild, were upset that many newcomers, like yourself, are coming in to the guild and slashing established prices in half, in order to make a sale that day.
That type of business model hurts our income as individuals and as a guild, making it impossible to raise the proper funds through sales tax alone to acquire high market Guild Traders, that we hire each week.

I am not going to attempt to hold the hand of 500 members when it comes to how to sell in the store. But I will slap the wrist when it negatively affects the Guild.

Good riddance to you and good luck.

Wow, so that's the kind of nonsense that goes on in the console world? On PC/NA, price competition is the norm. I don't know of any guilds that have rules like that. The market sorts itself out, and any price-fixing happens on very small scales (two sellers whispering each other). If someone cuts prices to move goods, that's their right. If their price is too low, they'll sell out too fast and can't restock, and people will be forced to buy the higher-priced items--essentially, the "undercutter" just lost potential profit, but that was their choice. If they can price it low and restock it as fast as it sells, then maybe that's the market's way of saying that the "established" price is too damn high, in which case, the "undercutter" is simply profiting from the poor pricing choices of their guildmates. Supply and demand is fluid, and sometimes, prices fall, and sometimes, prices rise, when people realize that things are selling so fast that they can't keep it in stock.

Major hubs like Mournhold, Rawl, and Craglorn usually see a lot of cutthroat price competition. But they also move tremendous volumes because that's where people go to find the best deals. There are guilds in other locations that rely on more on higher prices than higher volumes for their sales. In either case, the prices come naturally, not through any mass-scale cartel price fixing like what you describe.

Oh, and if someone in your guild slashes their price in half, and you are convinced that price is just too low, why not just buy that item, relist it higher, and make a tidy profit from the flip? If your "established" price really is the price that the market will bear, then you just made easy profit.

Okay don't bring up the console and PC world. Don't be one of those people, players of the PC are just as bad if not worse