Please change the way we sell to each other.

Brrrofski

I was kicked for 2, 3 weeks ago for selling a daedric motif for 40k.

Guild master wasn't happy I undercut his by 30k.

When asked in future if I could sell it close to the standard price (he was kind and said I could sell for 2 or 3k cheaper....) and when I said no he kicked me from the guild.

Brrrofski

imnotanother wrote: »

zstewart2015 wrote: »

The guild store system sucks. Not only do the charge you for the right to sell items in the store, now one if the guilds I am in is trying to tell everyone what price to sell items by suggesting that undercutting others prices is bad for the guild and that they are watching and noticing when it is done. Some kind of veiled threat. I guess we are supposed to search the guild store every time we want to sell something and match other guild members prices, so I guess I will be selling malachite shards for $125000 gold or 1 mountain flower for $10000 gold just so nobody gets all butt hurt because I thought their price was ridiculous and wanted to sell my items at a more reasonable price. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out another problem was with guild stores run by dictators.

As your former Guild Master, I have to say that I wish you would have brought up your concerns at one of the guild meetings or jumped in the Guild chat and talked to one of the several members in there....but not once were you involved in the guild and to be honest, you weren't even on the radar for being an undercutter. But thank you for showcasing your self-guilt and excusing yourself from the guild.

To clarify, since you were clearly confused, we don't charge you to sell anything...We have a one time membership fee (to help raise funds for the weekly trader). Many members, who help bank roll the Guild, were upset that many newcomers, like yourself, are coming in to the guild and slashing established prices in half, in order to make a sale that day.
That type of business model hurts our income as individuals and as a guild, making it impossible to raise the proper funds through sales tax alone to acquire high market Guild Traders, that we hire each week.

I am not going to attempt to hold the hand of 500 members when it comes to how to sell in the store. But I will slap the wrist when it negatively affects the Guild.

Good riddance to you and good luck.

Good prices doesn't hurt a guild. Good prices means return customers. Which is why small businesses are disappearing while franchises grow. They can sell for cheaper. People go back.

I've always sold things at good prices. If we missed out on a trader one week or moved, i'd get messages from people asking me where the store was or could I sell things direct.

I'm on xbox and got to a million in two months all while actually playing the game, not standing around in zone chat like most did. I sold for good prices, so had continuous trade.

Also, there's no such thing as an established prices. It changes by the week.

That's down to a number of factors. But nothing stays the same from week to week.

MikeB

Guild Stores and inherently trade guilds are one of the worst parts of ESO. As I stated in one of the hundreds, if not thousands, of previous threads just like this one most trade guilds require a fee that cost several thousand to several million more than the cost to get their trader for the week then claim the excess gold goes to their raflles and whatnot, and this is just not the case. I have yet to be in a Trade Guilde, and I've been in the largest on XB1, that the raffles cover the excess gold they get everyweek from fee's and take-in from the items being posted.

Those that claim a centralized auction house are over inflated obviously havent played many MMO's or at least MMO's with a decent following. Its impossible for one person, or even several, to control a market if there are enough people posting items at a lower reasonable price, they just wont have the money to buy them all out, again if there's enough players posting in the AH.

corrosivechains

MikeB wrote: »

Guild Stores and inherently trade guilds are one of the worst parts of ESO. As I stated in one of the hundreds, if not thousands, of previous threads just like this one most trade guilds require a fee that cost several thousand to several million more than the cost to get their trader for the week then claim the excess gold goes to their raflles and whatnot, and this is just not the case. I have yet to be in a Trade Guilde, and I've been in the largest on XB1, that the raffles cover the excess gold they get everyweek from fee's and take-in from the items being posted.

Those that claim a centralized auction house are over inflated obviously havent played many MMO's or at least MMO's with a decent following. Its impossible for one person, or even several, to control a market if there are enough people posting items at a lower reasonable price, they just wont have the money to buy them all out, again if there's enough players posting in the AH.

except that every guide to every MMO with an AH on how to make gold/currency lists their prime way of doing so is to corner the AH market, usually on things like consumables. Buy the market out and sell at inflated prices. If people undercut you, since you've held the majority of such items for a time, you'll have enough money to either buy it all out and keep things at your prices, or just flood the market with said item at a profit loss until your competition gives up and then reinflate your prices. That cannot be done with ESO system. At all. Standard practice for EVERY MMO with an AH though. Go ahead, go read any and every "how to make gold/currency" guide for all those other MMO's, especially the ones with a decent following.

Callous2208

MikeB wrote: »

Guild Stores and inherently trade guilds are one of the worst parts of ESO. As I stated in one of the hundreds, if not thousands, of previous threads just like this one most trade guilds require a fee that cost several thousand to several million more than the cost to get their trader for the week then claim the excess gold goes to their raflles and whatnot, and this is just not the case. I have yet to be in a Trade Guilde, and I've been in the largest on XB1, that the raffles cover the excess gold they get everyweek from fee's and take-in from the items being posted.

Those that claim a centralized auction house are over inflated obviously havent played many MMO's or at least MMO's with a decent following. Its impossible for one person, or even several, to control a market if there are enough people posting items at a lower reasonable price, they just wont have the money to buy them all out, again if there's enough players posting in the AH.

If you reversed everything you said, then yes you would be correct. I haven't been in one trade guild yet that required a fee. All of mine, without requiring a fee, still hold raffles and give out huge sums of gold and rare items. Your last statement is the hardest to swallow. Anyone with an iota of mmo experience knows how bad centralized AH's are. Nearly every one is controlled at the top by bots or a few hardcore 24 hr grinders. I have quite literally played them all in the past 10 years and am yet to see a functional, healthy, global AH.

MikeB

You people follow guides on the internet on how to make fake gold? Did you pay for these guides? These guides are there to generate traffic for the website to make more real money off people viewing and clicking on the ads running, nothing more.

IKilled007

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

corrosivechains

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

I'm curious then, since you're an economist, what your thoughts are on the differences of Keynesian vs Austrian practices, and how the one in practice seems to differ so greatly from it's theory while the other maintains relatively even numbers across both it's practical and theoritical? Also what are your thoughts on Hayak and Mises, or are you more inclined towards the Krugman schools of though?

Not to obfuscate the OP with these conjectures though.

Shadesofkin

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

I'm fairly certain the purpose was to support the already in game 5 guild system which was producing merchant and crafting guilds that needed a way to sell their stuff.

IKilled007

imnotanother wrote: »

zstewart2015 wrote: »

The guild store system sucks. Not only do the charge you for the right to sell items in the store, now one if the guilds I am in is trying to tell everyone what price to sell items by suggesting that undercutting others prices is bad for the guild and that they are watching and noticing when it is done. Some kind of veiled threat. I guess we are supposed to search the guild store every time we want to sell something and match other guild members prices, so I guess I will be selling malachite shards for $125000 gold or 1 mountain flower for $10000 gold just so nobody gets all butt hurt because I thought their price was ridiculous and wanted to sell my items at a more reasonable price. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out another problem was with guild stores run by dictators.

As your former Guild Master, I have to say that I wish you would have brought up your concerns at one of the guild meetings or jumped in the Guild chat and talked to one of the several members in there....but not once were you involved in the guild and to be honest, you weren't even on the radar for being an undercutter. But thank you for showcasing your self-guilt and excusing yourself from the guild.

To clarify, since you were clearly confused, we don't charge you to sell anything...We have a one time membership fee (to help raise funds for the weekly trader). Many members, who help bank roll the Guild, were upset that many newcomers, like yourself, are coming in to the guild and slashing established prices in half, in order to make a sale that day.
That type of business model hurts our income as individuals and as a guild, making it impossible to raise the proper funds through sales tax alone to acquire high market Guild Traders, that we hire each week.

I am not going to attempt to hold the hand of 500 members when it comes to how to sell in the store. But I will slap the wrist when it negatively affects the Guild.

Good riddance to you and good luck.

Who decides what the "established prices" are and what constitutes "undercutting"? The system described above is merely what we call "price fixing" with elaborations. The guild system has become a "cartel", basically, with a few large, powerful guilds wielding huge market power since there's no "free market" to allow individuals to bring prices down via competition. I don't blame the guilds or guild leaders at all, don't get me wrong -- they didn't establish this system, after all; no, they're merely behaving as efficient actors given the market-distorting rules imposed by ESO. The parallels to the real world (unions, government-granted monopolies, the rise of cartels when the government has forbid there to be markets in certain products) are obvious.

Anyway, carry on, everyone. I find this amusing.

IKilled007

corrosivechains wrote: »

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

I'm curious then, since you're an economist, what your thoughts are on the differences of Keynesian vs Austrian practices, and how the one in practice seems to differ so greatly from it's theory while the other maintains relatively even numbers across both it's practical and theoritical? Also what are your thoughts on Hayak and Mises, or are you more inclined towards the Krugman schools of though?

Not to obfuscate the OP with these conjectures though.

I'm Austrian School. My father is a professor in the Austrian School tradition, 40+ years now. Mises? Greatest economist who ever lived, no close second. If I had to rank economists, it would go Mises, Böhm von Bawerk, Rothbard, Hayek (spelled with an "e" ), my dad, Hoppe, and then maybe Menger and Ludwig Lachmann.

Krugman is a buffoon, like Keynes was. They're not real economists, they're econostrologers.

kupacmac

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

It's real simple... centralized selling favors the buyer whereas separated selling favors the seller. I personally would much rather have the latter. I've played games where the selling was centralized (Guild Wars 2 is a prime example). The prices for everything (except for the most desirable/rare items) normalized to just barely more than what can you vender items for. It was impossible to make enough capital to purchase anything worthwhile unless you specifically devoted time to "playing the auction house". It's not something I considered fun and was a major factor in deciding to leave the game.

As much as it sucks sometimes having to travel to different guild traders looking for what you need, it's infinitely better than a centralized AH IMO.

UltimaJoe777

imnotanother wrote: »

zstewart2015 wrote: »

The guild store system sucks. Not only do the charge you for the right to sell items in the store, now one if the guilds I am in is trying to tell everyone what price to sell items by suggesting that undercutting others prices is bad for the guild and that they are watching and noticing when it is done. Some kind of veiled threat. I guess we are supposed to search the guild store every time we want to sell something and match other guild members prices, so I guess I will be selling malachite shards for $125000 gold or 1 mountain flower for $10000 gold just so nobody gets all butt hurt because I thought their price was ridiculous and wanted to sell my items at a more reasonable price. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out another problem was with guild stores run by dictators.

As your former Guild Master, I have to say that I wish you would have brought up your concerns at one of the guild meetings or jumped in the Guild chat and talked to one of the several members in there....but not once were you involved in the guild and to be honest, you weren't even on the radar for being an undercutter. But thank you for showcasing your self-guilt and excusing yourself from the guild.

To clarify, since you were clearly confused, we don't charge you to sell anything...We have a one time membership fee (to help raise funds for the weekly trader). Many members, who help bank roll the Guild, were upset that many newcomers, like yourself, are coming in to the guild and slashing established prices in half, in order to make a sale that day.
That type of business model hurts our income as individuals and as a guild, making it impossible to raise the proper funds through sales tax alone to acquire high market Guild Traders, that we hire each week.

I am not going to attempt to hold the hand of 500 members when it comes to how to sell in the store. But I will slap the wrist when it negatively affects the Guild.

Good riddance to you and good luck.

Yeah with an attitude like that I wouldn't want to be in your guild either. All these trading guilds care about is making as much money as they can and will penalize anyone that tries to do otherwise, even if they are in a different guild...

code65536

imnotanother wrote: »

zstewart2015 wrote: »

The guild store system sucks. Not only do the charge you for the right to sell items in the store, now one if the guilds I am in is trying to tell everyone what price to sell items by suggesting that undercutting others prices is bad for the guild and that they are watching and noticing when it is done. Some kind of veiled threat. I guess we are supposed to search the guild store every time we want to sell something and match other guild members prices, so I guess I will be selling malachite shards for $125000 gold or 1 mountain flower for $10000 gold just so nobody gets all butt hurt because I thought their price was ridiculous and wanted to sell my items at a more reasonable price. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out another problem was with guild stores run by dictators.

As your former Guild Master, I have to say that I wish you would have brought up your concerns at one of the guild meetings or jumped in the Guild chat and talked to one of the several members in there....but not once were you involved in the guild and to be honest, you weren't even on the radar for being an undercutter. But thank you for showcasing your self-guilt and excusing yourself from the guild.

To clarify, since you were clearly confused, we don't charge you to sell anything...We have a one time membership fee (to help raise funds for the weekly trader). Many members, who help bank roll the Guild, were upset that many newcomers, like yourself, are coming in to the guild and slashing established prices in half, in order to make a sale that day.
That type of business model hurts our income as individuals and as a guild, making it impossible to raise the proper funds through sales tax alone to acquire high market Guild Traders, that we hire each week.

I am not going to attempt to hold the hand of 500 members when it comes to how to sell in the store. But I will slap the wrist when it negatively affects the Guild.

Good riddance to you and good luck.

Wow, so that's the kind of nonsense that goes on in the console world? On PC/NA, price competition is the norm. I don't know of any guilds that have rules like that. The market sorts itself out, and any price-fixing happens on very small scales (two sellers whispering each other). If someone cuts prices to move goods, that's their right. If their price is too low, they'll sell out too fast and can't restock, and people will be forced to buy the higher-priced items--essentially, the "undercutter" just lost potential profit, but that was their choice. If they can price it low and restock it as fast as it sells, then maybe that's the market's way of saying that the "established" price is too damn high, in which case, the "undercutter" is simply profiting from the poor pricing choices of their guildmates. Supply and demand is fluid, and sometimes, prices fall, and sometimes, prices rise, when people realize that things are selling so fast that they can't keep it in stock.

Major hubs like Mournhold, Rawl, and Craglorn usually see a lot of cutthroat price competition. But they also move tremendous volumes because that's where people go to find the best deals. There are guilds in other locations that rely on more on higher prices than higher volumes for their sales. In either case, the prices come naturally, not through any mass-scale cartel price fixing like what you describe.

Oh, and if someone in your guild slashes their price in half, and you are convinced that price is just too low, why not just buy that item, relist it higher, and make a tidy profit from the flip? If your "established" price really is the price that the market will bear, then you just made easy profit.

code65536

IKilled007 wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

I'm curious then, since you're an economist, what your thoughts are on the differences of Keynesian vs Austrian practices, and how the one in practice seems to differ so greatly from it's theory while the other maintains relatively even numbers across both it's practical and theoritical? Also what are your thoughts on Hayak and Mises, or are you more inclined towards the Krugman schools of though?

Not to obfuscate the OP with these conjectures though.

I'm Austrian School. My father is a professor in the Austrian School tradition, 40+ years now. Mises? Greatest economist who ever lived, no close second. If I had to rank economists, it would go Mises, Böhm von Bawerk, Rothbard, Hayek (spelled with an "e" ), my dad, Hoppe, and then maybe Menger and Ludwig Lachmann.

Krugman is a buffoon, like Keynes was. They're not real economists, they're econostrologers.

Austrian school is just faith-based economics, turning a blind eye to inconvenient evidence and reality. Yes, markets do work, and markets are great, most of the time. But markets are comprised of people. Imperfect, irrational people, in an imperfect world of asymmetric information and externalities. Markets work, but they are imperfect. Keynes, Krugman, and the other "buffoons" are simply realists who dismiss the fairy-tale world of the Austrian school; it's not that they don't support market economics, but they just don't support it so blindly that that they dismiss any attempt at addressing and mitigating some of the inherent, unavoidable pitfalls and imperfections.

Kuroinu

You know what would solve the problem of all these so called "greedy" Guilds? Or enhance the Guild Trader experience?

Allowing players outside of your Guild and even players not in a Guild to sell at your stand. The only thing you gain from outsiders is 10% of that players sold profits to go towards re-hiring. Whilst in the Guild, that tax is reduced to 5%.

I've yet to join a Trading Guild, so I have a vague idea as to what they like to do. I just hear silly stories like many have posted in this thread. But what I suggested above makes sense to me.

imnotanother

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Yeah with an attitude like that I wouldn't want to be in your guild either. All these trading guilds care about is making as much money as they can and will penalize anyone that tries to do otherwise, even if they are in a different guild...

We are a Trading Guild, our function is to make money(profit)...if you want to give stuff away, join another guild or donate a large sum to help secure a trader because they are not cheap to hire every week.

code65536 wrote: »

Wow, so that's the kind of nonsense that goes on in the console world? On PC/NA, price competition is the norm. I don't know of any guilds that have rules like that. The market sorts itself out, and any price-fixing happens on very small scales (two sellers whispering each other). If someone cuts prices to move goods, that's their right. If their price is too low, they'll sell out too fast and can't restock, and people will be forced to buy the higher-priced items--essentially, the "undercutter" just lost potential profit, but that was their choice. If they can price it low and restock it as fast as it sells, then maybe that's the market's way of saying that the "established" price is too damn high, in which case, the "undercutter" is simply profiting from the poor pricing choices of their guildmates. Supply and demand is fluid, and sometimes, prices fall, and sometimes, prices rise, when people realize that things are selling so fast that they can't keep it in stock.

Major hubs like Mournhold, Rawl, and Craglorn usually see a lot of cutthroat price competition. But they also move tremendous volumes because that's where people go to find the best deals. There are guilds in other locations that rely on more on higher prices than higher volumes for their sales. In either case, the prices come naturally, not through any mass-scale cartel price fixing like what you describe.

Oh, and if someone in your guild slashes their price in half, and you are convinced that price is just too low, why not just buy that item, relist it higher, and make a tidy profit from the flip? If your "established" price really is the price that the market will bear, then you just made easy profit.

I am not sure where you get price fixing from my post. Members are never told a price to sell their product, but it is frowned upon to join a guild and start slashing prices. Sorry that is my opinion and I do discourage those actions in my guild because I am a manager for 499 other egos that want to make money. I don't like having my PSN blow up with people angry because of undercutters. Those offended by being asked to cooperate with fellow guild members are more than welcomed to form and start their own trading guild...or to join another and see if that grass is greener. We have a solid core of members that sustain the majority anyways.

AlnilamE

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

But aren't you fascinated by the price curves and how changes in gameplay have unintended effects on prices? I'm not an economist, but I love watching that stuff.

And checking a global auction house (or any guild trader) will only tell you the "current global price" of the stuff that has NOT sold.

code65536

imnotanother wrote: »

I am not sure where you get price fixing from my post. Members are never told a price to sell their product, but it is frowned upon to join a guild and start slashing prices. Sorry that is my opinion and I do discourage those actions in my guild because I am a manager for 499 other egos that want to make money. I don't like having my PSN blow up with people angry because of undercutters. Those offended by being asked to cooperate with fellow guild members are more than welcomed to form and start their own trading guild...or to join another and see if that grass is greener. We have a solid core of members that sustain the majority anyways.

Do I like it when someone comes along, slashes prices, and tank my sales? No, of course not. But that's their right. Sometimes, it's someone in my guild, and sometimes, it's someone in a guild next to mine. There are times when people would list things very low, in which case, I either buy it up and flip, or I just wait for their stuff to sell out, after which, my listings go back to selling. Either way, that person sacrificed profit for a quick sale--which was their decision and their right.

Now, if they list things low and are able to keep relisting low after they sell out, then my listings just won't sell. That does happen now and then, and that's fine--it just means that I need to either lower my price or give up on selling that particular item. They're not cheating me out of anything--they're out-competing me fair and square, and I just have to accept that. The market giveth and the market taketh. If I (or my members) can't stomach some price competition (which is how things have worked in the real world since the dawn of history), then that's our problem, not the competitor's.

(Now, there is one form of undercutting that I don't like: If I list something for 4999 and someone lists it for 4998, then that's just a *** move. But if I list it for 4999 and they list it for 4499, that's fine.)

IKilled007

code65536 wrote: »

IKilled007 wrote: »

corrosivechains wrote: »

IKilled007 wrote: »

As an economist, I can say that it's obvious that the purpose of this system is to obfuscate real market prices. I can conjecture at the purpose(s) behind this, but it would be merely conjecture. That the system is designed to obfuscate prices is not conjecture, though. The creation of multiple markets for the same products -- markets which no one person can check quickly and efficiently -- is proof that they want barriers to efficient pricing. A global market place does what? It provides pricing information efficiently. You don't have to wonder if a product is selling for alternative prices somewhere else (other than internally among friends/guilds/zone chats). All you have to do is check that one market to get the current global price.

So since it's an established fact that ZOS doesn't want players to be able to discover the current global prices without significant effort, the only question left is "why not?".

I'm curious then, since you're an economist, what your thoughts are on the differences of Keynesian vs Austrian practices, and how the one in practice seems to differ so greatly from it's theory while the other maintains relatively even numbers across both it's practical and theoritical? Also what are your thoughts on Hayak and Mises, or are you more inclined towards the Krugman schools of though?

Not to obfuscate the OP with these conjectures though.

I'm Austrian School. My father is a professor in the Austrian School tradition, 40+ years now. Mises? Greatest economist who ever lived, no close second. If I had to rank economists, it would go Mises, Böhm von Bawerk, Rothbard, Hayek (spelled with an "e" ), my dad, Hoppe, and then maybe Menger and Ludwig Lachmann.

Krugman is a buffoon, like Keynes was. They're not real economists, they're econostrologers.

Austrian school is just faith-based economics, turning a blind eye to inconvenient evidence and reality. Yes, markets do work, and markets are great, most of the time. But markets are comprised of people. Imperfect, irrational people, in an imperfect world of asymmetric information and externalities. Markets work, but they are imperfect. Keynes, Krugman, and the other "buffoons" are simply realists who dismiss the fairy-tale world of the Austrian school; it's not that they don't support market economics, but they just don't support it so blindly that that they dismiss any attempt at addressing and mitigating some of the inherent, unavoidable pitfalls and imperfections.

LOL

kupacmac

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

You know what would solve the problem of all these so called "greedy" Guilds? Or enhance the Guild Trader experience?

Allowing players outside of your Guild and even players not in a Guild to sell at your stand. The only thing you gain from outsiders is 10% of that players sold profits to go towards re-hiring. Whilst in the Guild, that tax is reduced to 5%.

I've yet to join a Trading Guild, so I have a vague idea as to what they like to do. I just hear silly stories like many have posted in this thread. But what I suggested above makes sense to me.

The average/normal trading guilds are nothing like these horror stories that you hear. Most just do some sort of optional gambling system (raffle, poker, etc) and/or have minimum sales requirements. Some will charge fees, but you can find that out before joining and decide if it's worth it (most are fairly cheap). Don't be afraid to join one or two because it costs you nothing to leave if you don't like it.

Kuroinu

kupacmac wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

You know what would solve the problem of all these so called "greedy" Guilds? Or enhance the Guild Trader experience?

Allowing players outside of your Guild and even players not in a Guild to sell at your stand. The only thing you gain from outsiders is 10% of that players sold profits to go towards re-hiring. Whilst in the Guild, that tax is reduced to 5%.

I've yet to join a Trading Guild, so I have a vague idea as to what they like to do. I just hear silly stories like many have posted in this thread. But what I suggested above makes sense to me.

The average/normal trading guilds are nothing like these horror stories that you hear. Most just do some sort of optional gambling system (raffle, poker, etc) and/or have minimum sales requirements. Some will charge fees, but you can find that out before joining and decide if it's worth it (most are fairly cheap). Don't be afraid to join one or two because it costs you nothing to leave if you don't like it.

Yeah I'm aware the negative stories can rise to the top. I'm not afraid to join one though or deterred. I just don't have a need for more Gold at the moment, and that I also prefer to only have one Guild if I can get away with it.

PinoZino

code65536 wrote: »

Wow, so that's the kind of nonsense that goes on in the console world? On PC/NA, price competition is the norm. I don't know of any guilds that have rules like that. The market sorts itself out, and any price-fixing happens on very small scales (two sellers whispering each other). If someone cuts prices to move goods, that's their right. If their price is too low, they'll sell out too fast and can't restock, and people will be forced to buy the higher-priced items--essentially, the "undercutter" just lost potential profit, but that was their choice. If they can price it low and restock it as fast as it sells, then maybe that's the market's way of saying that the "established" price is too damn high, in which case, the "undercutter" is simply profiting from the poor pricing choices of their guildmates. Supply and demand is fluid, and sometimes, prices fall, and sometimes, prices rise, when people realize that things are selling so fast that they can't keep it in stock.

Major hubs like Mournhold, Rawl, and Craglorn usually see a lot of cutthroat price competition. But they also move tremendous volumes because that's where people go to find the best deals. There are guilds in other locations that rely on more on higher prices than higher volumes for their sales. In either case, the prices come naturally, not through any mass-scale cartel price fixing like what you describe.

Oh, and if someone in your guild slashes their price in half, and you are convinced that price is just too low, why not just buy that item, relist it higher, and make a tidy profit from the flip? If your "established" price really is the price that the market will bear, then you just made easy profit.

@imnotanother doesn't work with fixed prices, but we do.

But our fixed prices are managed by the members themselves.

We provide some nice added value:

• Members don't have to visit 20 guild stores to get an idea of a nice selling price for an item
• We provide a pricelist at our website
• We don't have price cutters in our guild
• We don't have ridiculous high prices
• Our guild is complete free
• Eventual guild profit will return to the members
• We have a forum on our website
• Oh and we have an auction house on our website too.

The guild is 1 month old and we have almost 300 members, by the end of this month we will have 500 members. It seems that more people like our concept and do not share your views.

Most guilds are working like you are describing. We want to be different. I believe there is room enough in Tramiel for guilds which are not the guild next door.

efroh

The whole price-fixing thing with ESO guilds is pretty interesting, given that historically real guilds actually did this. (Note, I'm not a fan of price-fixing and I'm really glad the FTC exists in the real world. It's interesting to see how art imitates life though. Economics really is the dismal science.)

PinoZino

efroh wrote: »

The whole price-fixing thing with ESO guilds is pretty interesting, given that historically real guilds actually did this. (Note, I'm not a fan of price-fixing and I'm really glad the FTC exists in the real world. It's interesting to see how art imitates life though. Economics really is the dismal science.)

Price fixing in the real world has another goal. In fact the opposite of our goal.

Besides, it is actual soft price fixing we are using, since the members decide the tags.

Slurg

You all must be on console. The price fixing guilds died out ages ago on PC. You'll eventually find all your controlling measures don't work if guilds that don't employ these silly controls set up shop next to you.

If you don't like how a guild is run, join a different one or start your own. Stomping your feet and demanding the whole trade system be changed because you can't stand up for yourself makes you look ridiculous. So many of these threads lately. I wish a mod would merge them.

UltimaJoe777

imnotanother wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Yeah with an attitude like that I wouldn't want to be in your guild either. All these trading guilds care about is making as much money as they can and will penalize anyone that tries to do otherwise, even if they are in a different guild...

We are a Trading Guild, our function is to make money(profit)...if you want to give stuff away, join another guild or donate a large sum to help secure a trader because they are not cheap to hire every week.

With an attitude like that though you likely make more enemies than friends. Sure the world of economy is brutal but this is the reason why... I don't judge you or anything for trying to make money but at least have some honorable standards.

What does it matter though? People are greedy by nature and telling people like you to ease up is as pointless as telling kids Spongebob Squarepants is bad for them. All I know for sure is when my Guild gets to where they can hire Traders we will not require them to donate for the cause as it will be purely optional and we will not punish them for pricing as they see fit either. If they want to sell something ridiculously cheap despite knowing its average value that is their privilege and if they overprice and don't sell the stuff that's their problem lol but seeing as my guild is not just a Trading Guild we will not pressure our members the way Trading Guilds do. Freedom over profit is the way I prefer to go!

FuriousFridge

code65536 wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

zstewart2015 wrote: »

The guild store system sucks. Not only do the charge you for the right to sell items in the store, now one if the guilds I am in is trying to tell everyone what price to sell items by suggesting that undercutting others prices is bad for the guild and that they are watching and noticing when it is done. Some kind of veiled threat. I guess we are supposed to search the guild store every time we want to sell something and match other guild members prices, so I guess I will be selling malachite shards for $125000 gold or 1 mountain flower for $10000 gold just so nobody gets all butt hurt because I thought their price was ridiculous and wanted to sell my items at a more reasonable price. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to point out another problem was with guild stores run by dictators.

As your former Guild Master, I have to say that I wish you would have brought up your concerns at one of the guild meetings or jumped in the Guild chat and talked to one of the several members in there....but not once were you involved in the guild and to be honest, you weren't even on the radar for being an undercutter. But thank you for showcasing your self-guilt and excusing yourself from the guild.

To clarify, since you were clearly confused, we don't charge you to sell anything...We have a one time membership fee (to help raise funds for the weekly trader). Many members, who help bank roll the Guild, were upset that many newcomers, like yourself, are coming in to the guild and slashing established prices in half, in order to make a sale that day.
That type of business model hurts our income as individuals and as a guild, making it impossible to raise the proper funds through sales tax alone to acquire high market Guild Traders, that we hire each week.

I am not going to attempt to hold the hand of 500 members when it comes to how to sell in the store. But I will slap the wrist when it negatively affects the Guild.

Good riddance to you and good luck.

Wow, so that's the kind of nonsense that goes on in the console world? On PC/NA, price competition is the norm. I don't know of any guilds that have rules like that. The market sorts itself out, and any price-fixing happens on very small scales (two sellers whispering each other). If someone cuts prices to move goods, that's their right. If their price is too low, they'll sell out too fast and can't restock, and people will be forced to buy the higher-priced items--essentially, the "undercutter" just lost potential profit, but that was their choice. If they can price it low and restock it as fast as it sells, then maybe that's the market's way of saying that the "established" price is too damn high, in which case, the "undercutter" is simply profiting from the poor pricing choices of their guildmates. Supply and demand is fluid, and sometimes, prices fall, and sometimes, prices rise, when people realize that things are selling so fast that they can't keep it in stock.

Major hubs like Mournhold, Rawl, and Craglorn usually see a lot of cutthroat price competition. But they also move tremendous volumes because that's where people go to find the best deals. There are guilds in other locations that rely on more on higher prices than higher volumes for their sales. In either case, the prices come naturally, not through any mass-scale cartel price fixing like what you describe.

Oh, and if someone in your guild slashes their price in half, and you are convinced that price is just too low, why not just buy that item, relist it higher, and make a tidy profit from the flip? If your "established" price really is the price that the market will bear, then you just made easy profit.

Okay don't bring up the console and PC world. Don't be one of those people, players of the PC are just as bad if not worse

Stigma311

TX11 wrote: »

Everyone here who is having issues with trading guilds charging exorbient rent and fees needs to send me a message on psn. Name is TX11. I will shoot you an invite to my guild. We are donation based NO FEES unless you want bank access then you must pay a 10k security deposit Which will be returned if you don't rob the guild. We have had a trader in wayrest every week except 3 since the games release. I run 2 guilds each close to 500. The main guild is a social guild not just a trading guild. Saturday night I hosted 2 groups for a clan night with 45 people all going into imperial city. If you are tired of trading guilds that treat you like a gold supply and not a person looking to have fun and just game send me a message and join Better Hide or Die. You won't regret it.

Server is NA PS4

that sucks here i am mailing you but seem your on ps4 and what !!! Laughs