Fix hardened ward - if you won't address shield stacking

DannyLV702 · September 2015

Scyantific wrote: »

show previous quotes

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

if you really think all those are efficient counters against cloak, then you simply suck at nightblade.

FriedEggSandwich · September 2015

xaraan wrote: »

I'd say L2P without hardened ward to all the worriers. It is too strong, it should simply cost much more and not last as long IMO, let it stay strong numbers wise, but make it cost what it's worth. And no, not every player in the game should have to run one set to counter one skill, that means there is a problem with that skill.

Given that most average sorcs will have a hardened ward of about 9-10k at the most it would seem a bit pointless reducing it's length down from 20 seconds, or whatever it is. The chances of the ward lasting 20 seconds when you're taking damage are non-existent. And why does it matter that the ward lasts 20 seconds outside of combat?

As to it's cost; I can tell you that with 47cp in magician and no cost-reduction glyphs mine costs 2355 magicka. My regen is 1600 so if I just spam hardened ward I'm going to run out of magicka fairly quickly in combat. How much more do you think it should cost and why?

I ask why because my 9.8k hardened ward can be broken in 2 hits by many skills, with overflow damage to spare. How many hits should it be able to take, and why?

I have been trying to live without it, to counter the counter that is shieldbreaker. I wear 2 pieces of heavy armour and use boundless storm and my spell resistance is 22k, physical resistance is 18k.

I still need to use hardened ward, although less than I did in 7 light. Why do I still need to use it? Because I don't have access to a powerful heal, streak was nerfed so I can only use it 3 times without being vunerable, I can't dodge-roll more than twice or block more than twice.

How do you suggest I learn to live without it? If I had access to the 2.3k ticks from vigor then I would use vigor instead. I'm already using 2 pieces of heavy armour, if I wore any more I would lose the 5 piece light armour bonus, and as a magicka dps that would be silly.

So I'm open to suggestions, but I don't think you know the class very well so forgive me if I find it hard to take you seriously.

Firerock2 · September 2015

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

show previous quotes

xaraan wrote: »

I'd say L2P without hardened ward to all the worriers. It is too strong, it should simply cost much more and not last as long IMO, let it stay strong numbers wise, but make it cost what it's worth. And no, not every player in the game should have to run one set to counter one skill, that means there is a problem with that skill.

Given that most average sorcs will have a hardened ward of about 9-10k at the most it would seem a bit pointless reducing it's length down from 20 seconds, or whatever it is. The chances of the ward lasting 20 seconds when you're taking damage are non-existent. And why does it matter that the ward lasts 20 seconds outside of combat?

As to it's cost; I can tell you that with 47cp in magician and no cost-reduction glyphs mine costs 2355 magicka. My regen is 1600 so if I just spam hardened ward I'm going to run out of magicka fairly quickly in combat. How much more do you think it should cost and why?

I ask why because my 9.8k hardened ward can be broken in 2 hits by many skills, with overflow damage to spare. How many hits should it be able to take, and why?

I have been trying to live without it, to counter the counter that is shieldbreaker. I wear 2 pieces of heavy armour and use boundless storm and my spell resistance is 22k, physical resistance is 18k.

I still need to use hardened ward, although less than I did in 7 light. Why do I still need to use it? Because I don't have access to a powerful heal, streak was nerfed so I can only use it 3 times without being vunerable, I can't dodge-roll more than twice or block more than twice.

How do you suggest I learn to live without it? If I had access to the 2.3k ticks from vigor then I would use vigor instead. I'm already using 2 pieces of heavy armour, if I wore any more I would lose the 5 piece light armour bonus, and as a magicka dps that would be silly.

So I'm open to suggestions, but I don't think you know the class very well so forgive me if I find it hard to take you seriously.

Base cost of hardened ward is 3112 Magicka

Base cost of Breath of Life is 4070 Magicka

Base cost of Green Dragon Blood: 3830 Magicka

Sorcs also get passives that increase their regen and reduce cost of spells.

You see, I want to believe that you have resource management problems on your sorc but I'm not a complete idiot. Sorry

You can spam your ward far longer than tanks can spam their heals. Your ward also is larger than any burst heal a DK or Temp can get.

SleepyTroll · September 2015

Scyantific wrote: »

show previous quotes

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

I know this all ready. I was saying that people basically go L2P with sheild but not cloak. Lol look at most of the comments, yet ZOS going to nerf cloak...

Tankqull · September 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Scyantific wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

show previous quotes

Scyantific wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

if you really think all those are efficient counters against cloak, then you simply suck at nightblade.

this from that list 3 options do bother me on my NB.
detect pots - but i can counter them with an invis pot ...
caltrops wich is restricted to stamina classes and are not that popular for small scale skrimishers and if you are a relying on cloak while zerging you are doing sth wrong
and out of the plathory of Aoes steel tornado - as it is the onlyone with a worthwhile radius.

everything else is pure garbage. and i love facing people wasting their QB-slots for abilities not worth it :P

Baphomet · September 2015

Well, there's not much point arguing over hardened ward - some people aknowledge that it is too strong, and others will fight teeth and nail to perserve it. That's the nature of the beast. Take a look at the nerfing the DK and the templar have taken, and that didn't happen quietly either - but it happened nontheless. But somehow sorcs have managed to elude a proper balancing for two patches now.

Regardless of people's disposition on sorcs, just look at the numbers, they tell the truth without bias.

Asmael · September 2015

1) Play the class you which to counter
2) Learn its strengths and weaknesses
3) Return to your previous class
4) Win against said class you wanted to counter

Baphomet · September 2015

That's been my philosophy since Marts 2013 when I started playing, and I've played maxed out sorcs and been through all the builds and patches, so I know what they are capable of.

However, my nature is to play the underdog because that makes winning against the easy-moders much more satisfying - though I did play DK as main in 1.5. But that still does not obscure my vision from things which are genuinely imbalanced.

FriedEggSandwich · September 2015

Firerock2 wrote: »

show previous quotes

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'd say L2P without hardened ward to all the worriers. It is too strong, it should simply cost much more and not last as long IMO, let it stay strong numbers wise, but make it cost what it's worth. And no, not every player in the game should have to run one set to counter one skill, that means there is a problem with that skill.

Given that most average sorcs will have a hardened ward of about 9-10k at the most it would seem a bit pointless reducing it's length down from 20 seconds, or whatever it is. The chances of the ward lasting 20 seconds when you're taking damage are non-existent. And why does it matter that the ward lasts 20 seconds outside of combat?

As to it's cost; I can tell you that with 47cp in magician and no cost-reduction glyphs mine costs 2355 magicka. My regen is 1600 so if I just spam hardened ward I'm going to run out of magicka fairly quickly in combat. How much more do you think it should cost and why?

I ask why because my 9.8k hardened ward can be broken in 2 hits by many skills, with overflow damage to spare. How many hits should it be able to take, and why?

I have been trying to live without it, to counter the counter that is shieldbreaker. I wear 2 pieces of heavy armour and use boundless storm and my spell resistance is 22k, physical resistance is 18k.

I still need to use hardened ward, although less than I did in 7 light. Why do I still need to use it? Because I don't have access to a powerful heal, streak was nerfed so I can only use it 3 times without being vunerable, I can't dodge-roll more than twice or block more than twice.

How do you suggest I learn to live without it? If I had access to the 2.3k ticks from vigor then I would use vigor instead. I'm already using 2 pieces of heavy armour, if I wore any more I would lose the 5 piece light armour bonus, and as a magicka dps that would be silly.

So I'm open to suggestions, but I don't think you know the class very well so forgive me if I find it hard to take you seriously.

Base cost of hardened ward is 3112 Magicka

Base cost of Breath of Life is 4070 Magicka

Base cost of Green Dragon Blood: 3830 Magicka

Sorcs also get passives that increase their regen and reduce cost of spells.

You see, I want to believe that you have resource management problems on your sorc but I'm not a complete idiot. Sorry

You can spam your ward far longer than tanks can spam their heals. Your ward also is larger than any burst heal a DK or Temp can get.

I would like to know the source of your figures before accepting them as fact. Certain races available to all classes get cost reduction boons.

Tanks can mitigate a lot more damage than I can for a lot less stamina, so you would hope that their healing needs would be less than a dps.

I'm fairly sure the regen stat, mine being 1600, is how much of that resource you get back every 2 seconds while in combat (source: in-game tooltip). This means that I get 1600 magicka back every 2 seconds (or 800 every second). So it's easy to see how spamming a spell costing 2533 magicka once per second isn't sustainable.

I could get my regen up over 2k or spec more into cost reduction for sure, but all classes can do this. In fact it's easier for a stamina dps build to spec into regen than it is a magicka build, just because of how much easier it is to raise weapon damage, therefore meaning food buffs are less important for max stamina and drinks can be used. As for my ward being bigger than BoL, heals can crit and BoL does crit for over 9k, although I can't prove it to you so you don't have to believe me.

FriedEggSandwich · September 2015

I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.

The op never answered the question in my original comment; how many hits should a damage shield be able to take in your opinion? At the moment it can take less than 2 of the bigger hits. My ward barely helps me survive against the best animation cancellers as those 2 hits can be done in less than a second. This is why there was such a huge 'l2p' train at the start of this thread.

Ender1310 · September 2015

Once I fully upgrade armor weapons and glyphs and I am still hitting sorcs like wet noodle maybe I'd cry about hardened ward. As long as they leave. Cloak alone I'm good with it. I will say this shields are the best. Pref shields and healing but there is nothing in this game that offers more survivabity than a good shield and bastion

Derra · September 2015

Firerock2 wrote: »

show previous quotes

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'd say L2P without hardened ward to all the worriers. It is too strong, it should simply cost much more and not last as long IMO, let it stay strong numbers wise, but make it cost what it's worth. And no, not every player in the game should have to run one set to counter one skill, that means there is a problem with that skill.

Given that most average sorcs will have a hardened ward of about 9-10k at the most it would seem a bit pointless reducing it's length down from 20 seconds, or whatever it is. The chances of the ward lasting 20 seconds when you're taking damage are non-existent. And why does it matter that the ward lasts 20 seconds outside of combat?

As to it's cost; I can tell you that with 47cp in magician and no cost-reduction glyphs mine costs 2355 magicka. My regen is 1600 so if I just spam hardened ward I'm going to run out of magicka fairly quickly in combat. How much more do you think it should cost and why?

I ask why because my 9.8k hardened ward can be broken in 2 hits by many skills, with overflow damage to spare. How many hits should it be able to take, and why?

I have been trying to live without it, to counter the counter that is shieldbreaker. I wear 2 pieces of heavy armour and use boundless storm and my spell resistance is 22k, physical resistance is 18k.

I still need to use hardened ward, although less than I did in 7 light. Why do I still need to use it? Because I don't have access to a powerful heal, streak was nerfed so I can only use it 3 times without being vunerable, I can't dodge-roll more than twice or block more than twice.

How do you suggest I learn to live without it? If I had access to the 2.3k ticks from vigor then I would use vigor instead. I'm already using 2 pieces of heavy armour, if I wore any more I would lose the 5 piece light armour bonus, and as a magicka dps that would be silly.

So I'm open to suggestions, but I don't think you know the class very well so forgive me if I find it hard to take you seriously.

Base cost of hardened ward is 3112 Magicka

Base cost of Breath of Life is 4070 Magicka

Base cost of Green Dragon Blood: 3830 Magicka

Sorcs also get passives that increase their regen and reduce cost of spells.

You see, I want to believe that you have resource management problems on your sorc but I'm not a complete idiot. Sorry

You can spam your ward far longer than tanks can spam their heals. Your ward also is larger than any burst heal a DK or Temp can get.

Templars also get a cost reduction passive. Also they have a skill buffing their magica regeneration for 480 flat.
The other morph for breath of life (honor the dead) get a magica return if cast on a target below 70% health for 8s.
Breath of life is an AOE it heals three targets. Ward is self singletarget (+ pets).

I´ve seen breath of live crits on me for 10k in pvp. Templars get 30% increased heals on self with another mandatory skill they have. A 13k bol crit is higher than any ward considering the HP you get also have dmg mitigated by armor/resist even more so.

Everyone knows that dragonblood is sh*t and should be buffed in some way.

What´s your point exactly?

Maulkin · September 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

Lol all the forumsorcs here

Lol at the forumblade defending the fotm class on every thread (don't touch my Cloak!) while also finding time to visit every Sorc thread and ask for more Sorc nerfs.

Maulkin · September 2015

Baphomet wrote: »

Well, there's not much point arguing over hardened ward - some people aknowledge that it is too strong, and others will fight teeth and nail to perserve it. That's the nature of the beast. Take a look at the nerfing the DK and the templar have taken, and that didn't happen quietly either - but it happened nontheless. But somehow sorcs have managed to elude a proper balancing for two patches now.

Someone does not know what he's talking about, I think. Over the last two patches we had:

1) Negate nerfs. No HP returns on absorbed effects + only absorbs once when cast
2) Crit Surge nerf. Now has a cooldown and the heal was nerfed from 60% to 40%.
3) Bolt Escape quadruple nerf (cost stacking + BoL duration + speed momentum + unable to bolt towards a direction of your choice while being rooted)
4) Shield Breaker introduction as counter-play to shields
5) All effects now applying on shields (minus some bugs which the are fixing).

Basically they've hit Sorc survivability on every turn. Not that some of this was not warranted. But if you somehow think that Sorcs eluded balancing changes and nerfs you must have failed to read patch notes or even log into the Sorc you say you have.

Bramir · September 2015

I had to take this off my bar because it doesn't produce a shield worth the time it takes to cast in PvP, and may open me up to the shield breaker BS. I might as well attack with that time and magicka, unless I want to be eternally on the defensive until I do eventually run out of magicka.

Master_Kas · September 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Scyantific wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

show previous quotes

Scyantific wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

if you really think all those are efficient counters against cloak, then you simply suck at nightblade.

Detectpots, RML, caltrops, are very good counters vs nightblades.
Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)
Cinderstorm with the pesky snare can be very good too, inhale.
Bats ultimate while staying on top of the cloaking nightblade.

L2Counter

Tankqull · September 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

show previous quotes

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

Scyantific wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

if you really think all those are efficient counters against cloak, then you simply suck at nightblade.

Detectpots, RML, caltrops, are very good counters vs nightblades.
Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)
Cinderstorm with the pesky snare can be very good too, inhale.
Bats ultimate while staying on top of the cloaking nightblade.

L2Counter

you should listen to your self

detectpots <-> invis pots

RML an ability reducing your self protection, offensive, and your sustain by reducing your maxmagica by 5% is utter BS especially when you have in mind how the stealth detection works with its tiny radius. its only worth [snip] if you allready have an increased detectionradius thx to medium armor(set bonus) so only slightly usefull on stamina classes wich tend to be 90% NB who have a far better tool for it...

curse is usless against a NB knowing how to utilize cloak especially since the API changes done with 1.7. and the streak path is easy to avoid by strafing or simply turning away from your unstealthed path immideatly after cloaking.

[Edit to remove profanity]

Maulkin · September 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)

Curse no longer pops you out of cloak. I've only spent 20 hours on my NB since 2.1 and I already know that.

Sarousse · September 2015

L2 15K WB.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

Been away for a week, forum still full of bad casuals that need to l2p i see.

Baphomet · September 2015

Sorcs been nerfed? Really? The only real nerf they have suffered is the change to bolt escape. Everything else has been minor adjustments compared to what the DK and templar have undergone the last year and a half. And don't forget about the conveniently left out buffs sorcs have also received to frags, lightning flood, mage's fury etc.

For magicka builds, they still have the best mobility, the best dps, some of the best ultimates and you've guessed it, the best shield.

DKs and templars have to suffice with 3-4k damage shields, and NBs... well, they don't really need one with cloak.

But a hardened ward gives you a consistant 8-10k damage shield per second - and I'd love to see which build can do that kind of consistant DPS in 1.7 PvP.

FriedEggSandwich · September 2015

Baphomet wrote: »

Sorcs been nerfed? Really? The only real nerf they have suffered is the change to bolt escape. Everything else has been minor adjustments compared to what the DK and templar have undergone the last year and a half. And don't forget about the conveniently left out buffs sorcs have also received to frags, lightning flood, mage's fury etc.

For magicka builds, they still have the best mobility, the best dps, some of the best ultimates and you've guessed it, the best shield.

DKs and templars have to suffice with 3-4k damage shields, and NBs... well, they don't really need one with cloak.

But a hardened ward gives you a consistant 8-10k damage shield per second - and I'd love to see which build can do that kind of consistant DPS in 1.7 PvP.

DKs can reflect projectile damage and mitigate the rest, templars can burst-heal through damage, NBs can make damage miss them and sorcs can absorb damage. I would say it was pretty balanced right now. If you reduced sorcs shield to 3-4k what else could they utilise to survive? Serious question coming from a 2 piece heavy armour wearer.

You don't have to do sustained damage to counter a sorc, just a decent burst will do. I can burst players down with 12-14k dps if the procs go my way, and I know other builds can do even more.

Garion · September 2015

Baphomet wrote: »

Sorcs been nerfed? Really? The only real nerf they have suffered is the change to bolt escape. Everything else has been minor adjustments compared to what the DK and templar have undergone the last year and a half. And don't forget about the conveniently left out buffs sorcs have also received to frags, lightning flood, mage's fury etc.

For magicka builds, they still have the best mobility, the best dps, some of the best ultimates and you've guessed it, the best shield.

DKs and templars have to suffice with 3-4k damage shields, and NBs... well, they don't really need one with cloak.

But a hardened ward gives you a consistant 8-10k damage shield per second - and I'd love to see which build can do that kind of consistant DPS in 1.7 PvP.

NBs can have equally good mobility and in confined spaces (keeps, towers etc) arguably better. I can achieve more with cloak and shadow image in a keep than I can with streak on my Sorc.

NBs have better damage in Cyrodiil.

Our class ultimates suck in most situations with the exception of power overload which I rate only because of its utility (the third bar) than its capabilities as a damage ultimate. Yes, we have the best all round shield, that is one thing you are right about. But it is weak now and if you can't break it easily then you are a bad player. End of.

DannyLV702 · September 2015

Master_Kas wrote: »

show previous quotes

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Scyantific wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

Scyantific wrote: »

SleepyTroll wrote: »

Gerardopg wrote: »

Or use shield braker and counter it, I don't know why pvpers wants to kills very single skill in the game for the pvers

If only peolpe felt the same way about all the counters to dark cloak...

LOL this again.

Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.

if you really think all those are efficient counters against cloak, then you simply suck at nightblade.

Detectpots, RML, caltrops, are very good counters vs nightblades.
Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)
Cinderstorm with the pesky snare can be very good too, inhale.
Bats ultimate while staying on top of the cloaking nightblade.

L2Counter

i still believe you're the one in need of "L2P". The ONLY problem i run into while on my nightblade is large groups that discover me by spamming the entire area. That's it. Now the only reason i don't give as much attention to my nightblade is because it's not in the alliance i want and i don't like ganking the hell out of my own alliance.

Maulkin · September 2015

Really no point arguing with Baphomet imo. Waste of time

DannyLV702 · September 2015

I want to know where all these "13K hardened ward" shields are because after the patch, mine is sitting at a solid 5.2k LOL

A simple wrecking blow will clear that plus half my health if i get caught slippin...

Bramir · September 2015

DannyLV702 wrote: »

I want to know where all these "13K hardened ward" shields are because after the patch, mine is sitting at a solid 5.2k LOL

A simple wrecking blow will clear that plus half my health if i get caught slippin...

Exactly...not worth the time it takes to cast it in PvP. Been trying to come up with a build that doesn't use it, but I'm not having much luck. The sorcerer class isn't exactly loaded with defensive options. Be switching to my NB soon...at V1 without any effort he has 7k more hps than my sorcerer anyway.

Ishammael · September 2015

How about... you give me a 10k heal for my DK? That I can spam over and over.

EDIT: hell, I'll even take a 5k heal not tied to Resto staff.

FriedEggSandwich · September 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

How about... you give me a 10k heal for my DK? That I can spam over and over.

EDIT: hell, I'll even take a 5k heal not tied to Resto staff.

How about we make hardened ward reflect 4 projectiles instead of absorbing 1 or 2?

Baphomet · September 2015

Imagine how templars and dks feel with their 3k-ish shields, ha ha.

Still, I would love to see a video of someone pulling 8-10 sustained DPS in PvP because that's what hardened will protect you from if you have some CP to invest.