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Fix hardened ward - if you won't address shield stacking
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Zlater✭✭✭Darnathian wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
The op never answered the question in my original comment; how many hits should a damage shield be able to take in your opinion? At the moment it can take less than 2 of the bigger hits. My ward barely helps me survive against the best animation cancellers as those 2 hits can be done in less than a second. This is why there was such a huge 'l2p' train at the start of this thread.
You miss the point. It's not about your hardened ward being OP in itself. It's OP towards DKs and Templars. They have. I chance. They didn't fix any problem or address all the points brought up in 1.6. It should not scale of magicka or get rid of shield stacking. One or the other.
They won't remove shield stacking, if you look through every skill and champion passive you'll notice it's too deeply ingrained into the game. Unless you can think of a way your 2k shield enchant won't accidental cancel your 30% health shield.
Sorcs can get super high max magicka due to things like + 8% max magicka bound Aegis. But remember that takes a huge sacrifice of 2-3 skill slots just for that one buff and 2% mit through armor or whatever -.- let's compare it to a Nb that can get it without even needing a dedicated skill.
DK's are in a similar place to sorcs atm, so lots of love there from me.
Someone else brought this up a week or two ago but the best way to fix shields and end the whining once and for all is to introduce a major and minor shield buff. Hardened Ward, Annulment, Ferocious Leap, Barrier would all be majors. Weapon enchants, Shielded Assault, Brawler, Sun Shield (and morphs), Obsidian Shield (and morphs), and Bone Shield (and morphs) would all be minors. You can only have one Major and one Minor active at any time, but the individual skills still scale as they currently do. If this happens, Healing Ward needs to be changed to a direct self heal that is worth using.
I'm not going to touch sorcs here because this is now a small discussion on damage shield mechanics.
See I disagree, I think we have a ok system with shields at the moment and instead of nerfing or making them all equal,why not make them better? Shields have a very different mechanic to healing and I think it's foolish to say the 2 are pretty much the same, this is where many of the issues spur from, because we keep comparing the 2. I like the diversity and the choice too, to know which shield to choose and when to use it.
Shields are intended as a defensive and survivability mechanic comparable to some weird version of dodge, armor and health in a way, it's not meant to look like healing. I think it would instead be good to change bone wall to a Stamina scaling shield or morph (for the Nb's), add another shield ability to our S&B skill line, maybe instead of the ransack morph? Then we could drop the battle spirit damage debuff. When I think of damage shields I think of other game's mechanics like GW2's Wards or Dragon Age's guard and wards, off the top of my head. They work really well there and everywhere almost, maybe we should adapt a similar view here to them?Ask for an invite to the greatest network of guilds ever. Redfur Trading, Redfur Exchange and Redfur Army!
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Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.Edited by Firerock2 on September 30, 2015 2:06AM2 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.PC | EU1 -
Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.0 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.
You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.Edited by FriedEggSandwich on September 30, 2015 3:46AMPC | EU0 -
Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.
You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.
I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.
My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.
All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.
I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.
Edited by Firerock2 on September 30, 2015 4:16AM0 -
Zlater✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.
You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.
I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.
My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.
All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.
I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.
1health + 9kshield + 3001damage(*300%execute)= dead
9khealth + armor + mitigation + 1shield + 9001damage = alive
Health keeps you alive a shield doesnt, I thought I might remind you of what health is meant to do xPAsk for an invite to the greatest network of guilds ever. Redfur Trading, Redfur Exchange and Redfur Army!
www.redfurconnect.com0 -
Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.
You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.
I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.
My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.
All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.
I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.
1health + 9kshield + 3001damage(*300%execute)= dead
9khealth + armor + mitigation + 1shield + 9001damage = alive
Health keeps you alive a shield doesnt, I thought I might remind you of what health is meant to do xP
You know the larger heals come when you are lower in health near execute range?
BTW 300% damage isn't that bad when it's overtime (Radiant Destruction) seeing as you can just spam Hardened Ward or roll dodge the damage now.
Also If you want large heals you need to use light armor so you don't really get much more mitigation then a Sorc counterpart. Nice try.
XD
Edited by Firerock2 on September 30, 2015 5:02AM0 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.
You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.
I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.
My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.
All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.
I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.
You're twisting my words a bit; I didn't say hardened ward wasn't sustainable. One of the complaints levelled at hardened ward is that it's spammable. I was trying to make the point that it isn't spammable without repercussions; the spam isn't sustainable, you will run out of magicka, so spamming it isn't a zerg-tanking technique like many people think. My point was nothing more than that. I questioned your figures because that's a sensible thing to do, I was happy with your response to that.
The comment I was referring to was #43 and it doesn't prove BoL is better than hardened ward, it merely illustrates how BoL has more utilty to it than hardened ward, which is just a health buffer and nothing more. I wasn't trying to get BoL nerfed or anything.
I don't believe hardened ward is hard to sustain, but it's also not cheap for sorcs which some people seem to think.
I still think you're in the wrong thread because I think you just want to hear people say templars need some love, and I would agree with you; templars need some love. I have, however, seen many templars tank my dps long enough to get back to their group simply by spamming BoL. No idea how much magicka that is costing them or how long they could keep it up for, but from my perspective it looks to be a similar technique to me spamming hardened ward to tank someones dps. This was the basis for my analogy.Edited by FriedEggSandwich on September 30, 2015 5:16AMPC | EU0 -
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Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.
You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.
I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.
My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.
All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.
I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.
You're twisting my words a bit; I didn't say hardened ward wasn't sustainable. One of the complaints levelled at hardened ward is that it's spammable. I was trying to make the point that it isn't spammable without repercussions; the spam isn't sustainable, you will run out of magicka, so spamming it isn't a zerg-tanking technique like many people think. My point was nothing more than that. I questioned your figures because that's a sensible thing to do, I was happy with your response to that.
The comment I was referring to was #43 and it doesn't prove BoL is better than hardened ward, it merely illustrates how BoL has more utilty to it than hardened ward, which is just a health buffer and nothing more. I wasn't trying to get BoL nerfed or anything.
I don't believe hardened ward is hard to sustain, but it's also not cheap for sorcs which some people seem to think.
I still think you're in the wrong thread because I think you just want to hear people say templars need some love, and I would agree with you; templars need some love. I have, however, seen many templars tank my dps long enough to get back to their group simply by spamming BoL. No idea how much magicka that is costing them or how long they could keep it up for, but from my perspective it looks to be a similar technique to me spamming hardened ward to tank someones dps. This was the basis for my analogy.
Yeah I really don't like defending Templar's in this thread because like I said I just wanted to add that HW is way more cost effective than other skills but just now again someone quoted me and I feel like I should respond. I don't want to change this into a buff DK and buff Temp thread.0 -
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Zlater✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you have to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.
You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.
I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.
My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.
All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.
I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.
1health + 9kshield + 3001damage(*300%execute)= dead
9khealth + armor + mitigation + 1shield + 9001damage = alive
Health keeps you alive a shield doesnt, I thought I might remind you of what health is meant to do xP
You know the larger heals come when you are lower in health near execute range?
BTW 300% damage isn't that bad when it's overtime (Radiant Destruction) seeing as you can just spam Hardened Ward or roll dodge the damage now.
Also If you want large heals you need to use light armor so you don't really get much more mitigation then a Sorc counterpart. Nice try.
XD
I don't really understand... shields are not health, health is health. It doesn't matter how big your shields are, if you have no health... you are dead, or stuck in lag xD. What you are saying is that shields = health. Therefore by your logic my maximum usable health is only 9k because my shield doesnt stack with itself. Light armor users usually have about 10k in armor atm which is about a 15% reduction. Light armor doesn't increase your heals either, just your sustainability.
Theres always counters to everything, but we aren't talking about the many different counters in each and every situation. I am only comparing BoL and HW under typical scenarios where the conditions stack against them about the same. 9k is a lot of damage for a whack or whatever, but if it's a crit then I can see where it comes from.Ask for an invite to the greatest network of guilds ever. Redfur Trading, Redfur Exchange and Redfur Army!
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k2blader✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
Thank you for spelling this out for the people who like to poo-poo the impacts of CPs or are otherwise somehow oblivious. I don't run a full Bastion build and unbuffed in a non-emp campaign my Hardened Ward is 6.8k. Food-buffed it is 7.9k. I typically do not shield-stack in PvP due to things like shield breaker, but for PvE I basically need to or I go smoosh.
Disabling the grass may improve performance.0 -
Xexpo✭✭✭✭✭Kiki Dickson ~~~ Dixmanian Devil ~~~ Cornelius Buckshank Jr.
Histy-Fitz ~~~ Boozemer ~~~ Chace X'expo
Lluvia De'Fuego ~~~ Shakes Spear
Macro and Cheese NA/PC0 -
Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.
I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.
Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.
Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.
But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster
I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.
I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you have to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.
I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.
Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.
Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.
Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.
And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.
Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.
Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.
I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?
"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.
"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "
No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.
Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record
Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.
Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.
Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.
"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"
You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.
You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.
I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.
My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.
All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.
I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.
1health + 9kshield + 3001damage(*300%execute)= dead
9khealth + armor + mitigation + 1shield + 9001damage = alive
Health keeps you alive a shield doesnt, I thought I might remind you of what health is meant to do xP
You know the larger heals come when you are lower in health near execute range?
BTW 300% damage isn't that bad when it's overtime (Radiant Destruction) seeing as you can just spam Hardened Ward or roll dodge the damage now.
Also If you want large heals you need to use light armor so you don't really get much more mitigation then a Sorc counterpart. Nice try.
XD
I don't really understand... shields are not health, health is health. It doesn't matter how big your shields are, if you have no health... you are dead, or stuck in lag xD. What you are saying is that shields = health. Therefore by your logic my maximum usable health is only 9k because my shield doesnt stack with itself. Light armor users usually have about 10k in armor atm which is about a 15% reduction. Light armor doesn't increase your heals either, just your sustainability.
Theres always counters to everything, but we aren't talking about the many different counters in each and every situation. I am only comparing BoL and HW under typical scenarios where the conditions stack against them about the same. 9k is a lot of damage for a whack or whatever, but if it's a crit then I can see where it comes from.
You must be confused, I never said shields=health I said shields are similar to health. BTW your math doesn't add up or you have severely gimped your character. You said if shields did equate to health then you would only have 9k usable health. Where is the rest of it? You have to have atleast a base of 10k real health and then add on a 9k shield.
A shield that protects from crits in my opinion is superior to a heal that needs to crit to get off decent numbers. Thats what I'm saying.I also want to add in that burst healing is far more expensive than Hardened Ward so LA is required if you want to sustain high SD/Magicka to be able to pull off those large heals.
My point all along has been that Hardened Ward is easier to spam in order to keep yourself alive than a burst heal, combine that with the fact that shields protect from crits and HW is better than BoL. Unless of course you are trying to be a healer, but I'm talking about small scale, sole survivability.0 -
Springt-Über-Zwerge✭✭✭✭What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.PC,EU, EP
Der-über-Zwerge-springt (Argonian, Magplar), Surtur Velothi (Dunmer, Magdk), Jaqene H'ghar (Imperial, Stamblade), Puppyslayer (Orc, Stamdk), Dagoth Era (Dunmer, Magblade), Æthmon Trevas (Altmer, Magsorc), Der-Zuletzt-Lacht (Argonian, Magden), Sir-Lanzeflott (Redguard, Stamplar)0 -
Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.
Unless they spam it again and then stack Healing Ward and Harness Magicka on top of it
Shield stacking is the real problem here. Edited by Firerock2 on September 30, 2015 9:33AM0 -
Springt-Über-Zwerge✭✭✭✭Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.
Unless they spam it again and then stack Healing Ward and Harness Magicka on top of it Shield stacking is the real problem here.
just dont let them have time to cast it keep them ccdPC,EU, EP
Der-über-Zwerge-springt (Argonian, Magplar), Surtur Velothi (Dunmer, Magdk), Jaqene H'ghar (Imperial, Stamblade), Puppyslayer (Orc, Stamdk), Dagoth Era (Dunmer, Magblade), Æthmon Trevas (Altmer, Magsorc), Der-Zuletzt-Lacht (Argonian, Magden), Sir-Lanzeflott (Redguard, Stamplar)0 -
Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.
Unless they spam it again and then stack Healing Ward and Harness Magicka on top of it Shield stacking is the real problem here.
just dont let them have time to cast it keep them ccd
The classes that lack the burst damage to take down the stacked shields also lack that type of CC unless they are Stamina builds.
And your plan only works if you can get the Sorc to run out of Stam
Edited by Firerock2 on September 30, 2015 9:44AM0 -
Springt-Über-Zwerge✭✭✭✭Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.
Unless they spam it again and then stack Healing Ward and Harness Magicka on top of it Shield stacking is the real problem here.
just dont let them have time to cast it keep them ccd
The classes that lack the burst damage to take down the stacked shields also lack that type of CC unless they are Stamina builds.
And your plan only works if you can get the Sorc to run out of Stam
Well im playing main magicka templar. Tell me 1 good templar burst skill
Im doing pretty good without because I have high sustained dps with constant CC which burns the shields of the average sorc faster than he can recast. Experienced sorcs on the other hand take a while to kill and require good concentration but thats the case with any of the other classes too PC,EU, EP
Der-über-Zwerge-springt (Argonian, Magplar), Surtur Velothi (Dunmer, Magdk), Jaqene H'ghar (Imperial, Stamblade), Puppyslayer (Orc, Stamdk), Dagoth Era (Dunmer, Magblade), Æthmon Trevas (Altmer, Magsorc), Der-Zuletzt-Lacht (Argonian, Magden), Sir-Lanzeflott (Redguard, Stamplar)0 -
Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.
Unless they spam it again and then stack Healing Ward and Harness Magicka on top of it Shield stacking is the real problem here.
just dont let them have time to cast it keep them ccd
The classes that lack the burst damage to take down the stacked shields also lack that type of CC unless they are Stamina builds.
And your plan only works if you can get the Sorc to run out of Stam
Well im playing main magicka templar. Tell me 1 good templar burst skill Im doing pretty good without because I have high sustained dps with constant CC which burns the shields of the average sorc faster than he can recast. Experienced sorcs on the other hand take a while to kill and require good concentration but thats the case with any of the other classes too
You tell me a good Templar burst skill, I would really like to know. There is Dark Flare but you must have incredible DPS if it burns through a sorc's shields faster than he can stack them. If you jab the Sorc then you can't CC them and the Magicka morph of jabs is too weak against stacked shields.
Backlash, the purgeable burst? Eclipse the CC reflect? Blazing Shield, the 4k damage Shield? Tell me pl0x.
These aren't Temp skills but...proximity det will do it when combined with an ultimate but those don't actually CC the Sorc and the Sorc can see that burst coming from a mile away. I am stumped on this so please guide me with your superior wisdom.
In all seriousness though, I would like to see a skill rotation of pure Templar skills that can take down a shield stacking Sorc. Would be interesting to seeEdited by Firerock2 on September 30, 2015 10:43AM0 -
eligh0716✭✭Yeah really, hardened ward is definitely a good skill for SORCS in all situations but don't get me wrong In pve my ward covers my whole health bar as in pvp it barely covers any. I take 2 hits and it's gone. Try making a sorc and see how squishy they are then you can tell us whether or not they need something else nerfed about them like streak or dark conversion. SORCS are literally the easiest class to kill in my opinion. You must really hate dragon Knights.0 -
Maphusail✭✭✭Omg another whining thread. Seems it's always posted by people who have never played Sorc. If they would have played it and became kickassed they would discover how many counters are there for Hardened Ward.Edited by Maphusail on September 30, 2015 10:38AM0
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Springt-Über-Zwerge✭✭✭✭Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.
Unless they spam it again and then stack Healing Ward and Harness Magicka on top of it Shield stacking is the real problem here.
just dont let them have time to cast it keep them ccd
The classes that lack the burst damage to take down the stacked shields also lack that type of CC unless they are Stamina builds.
And your plan only works if you can get the Sorc to run out of Stam
Well im playing main magicka templar. Tell me 1 good templar burst skill Im doing pretty good without because I have high sustained dps with constant CC which burns the shields of the average sorc faster than he can recast. Experienced sorcs on the other hand take a while to kill and require good concentration but thats the case with any of the other classes too
You tell me a good Templar burst skill, I would really like to know. There is Dark Flare but you must have incredible DPS if it burns through a sorc's shields faster than he can stack them. If you jab the Sorc then you can't CC them and the Magicka morph of jabs is too weak against stacked shields.
Backlash, the purgeable burst? Eclipse the CC reflect? Blazing Shield, the 4k damage Shield? Tell me pl0x.
These aren't Temp skills but...proximity det will do it when combined with an ultimate but those don't actually CC the Sorc and the Sorc can see that burst coming from a mile away. I am stumped on this so please guide me with your superior wisdom.
In all seriousness though, I would like to see a skill rotation of pure Templar skills that can take down a shield stacking Sorc. Would be interesting to see
Im neither using eclipse nor BS nor backlash because they are more or less useless (backlash will do 5 damage (minimum amount) to shieldstacking sorcs because damage on shields does not count as damage).
My bread and butter dps are jabs and the magicka morph is good if you have enough spelldmg.
My CC is toppling charge and if you time it right you wont apply the CC immunity from jabs most of the time (also toppling charge is really good damage). Combined with that I use proxy det which works perfectly (you just need some practice until you have the timing)
Why would I stick to just templar skills if 2 of the 3 abilities a sorc uses to get his shields are not from his class?
btw here are my stats. Im recently testing the Atronarch over the Aprentice for more magicka sustain:
PC,EU, EP
Der-über-Zwerge-springt (Argonian, Magplar), Surtur Velothi (Dunmer, Magdk), Jaqene H'ghar (Imperial, Stamblade), Puppyslayer (Orc, Stamdk), Dagoth Era (Dunmer, Magblade), Æthmon Trevas (Altmer, Magsorc), Der-Zuletzt-Lacht (Argonian, Magden), Sir-Lanzeflott (Redguard, Stamplar)0 -
Firerock2✭✭✭✭✭Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.
Unless they spam it again and then stack Healing Ward and Harness Magicka on top of it Shield stacking is the real problem here.
just dont let them have time to cast it keep them ccd
The classes that lack the burst damage to take down the stacked shields also lack that type of CC unless they are Stamina builds.
And your plan only works if you can get the Sorc to run out of Stam
Well im playing main magicka templar. Tell me 1 good templar burst skill Im doing pretty good without because I have high sustained dps with constant CC which burns the shields of the average sorc faster than he can recast. Experienced sorcs on the other hand take a while to kill and require good concentration but thats the case with any of the other classes too
You tell me a good Templar burst skill, I would really like to know. There is Dark Flare but you must have incredible DPS if it burns through a sorc's shields faster than he can stack them. If you jab the Sorc then you can't CC them and the Magicka morph of jabs is too weak against stacked shields.
Backlash, the purgeable burst? Eclipse the CC reflect? Blazing Shield, the 4k damage Shield? Tell me pl0x.
These aren't Temp skills but...proximity det will do it when combined with an ultimate but those don't actually CC the Sorc and the Sorc can see that burst coming from a mile away. I am stumped on this so please guide me with your superior wisdom.
In all seriousness though, I would like to see a skill rotation of pure Templar skills that can take down a shield stacking Sorc. Would be interesting to see
Im neither using eclipse nor BS nor backlash because they are more or less useless (backlash will do 5 damage (minimum amount) to shieldstacking sorcs because damage on shields does not count as damage).
My bread and butter dps are jabs and the magicka morph is good if you have enough spelldmg.
My CC is toppling charge and if you time it right you wont apply the CC immunity from jabs most of the time (also toppling charge is really good damage). Combined with that I use proxy det which works perfectly (you just need some practice until you have the timing)
Why would I stick to just templar skills if 2 of the 3 abilities a sorc uses to get his shields are not from his class?
btw here are my stats. Im recently testing the Atronarch over the Aprentice for more magicka sustain:
Well I asked for Templar skills because you claimed you had a Templar burst skill. Jabs isn't a burst skill even with that spell damage. Prox Det does provide enough damage to get through a HW with that spell damage but no way would it get through Harness Magicka and healing wars too.
Prox Det is also easily counter able by sorc's since you have a giantmred circle around you. I don't know of many good sorc's that wouldn't make use of Bolt Escape and Encase after seeing that red circle around you.0 -
Master_Kas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DannyLV702 wrote: »Master_Kas wrote: »DannyLV702 wrote: »Scyantific wrote: »SleepyTroll wrote: »
LOL this again.
Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.Scyantific wrote: »SleepyTroll wrote: »
LOL this again.
Detect Pots, Radiant Magelight, Caltrops, Revealing Flare, literally ANY AoE skill. Take your pick.
if you really think all those are efficient counters against cloak, then you simply suck at nightblade.
Detectpots, RML, caltrops, are very good counters vs nightblades.
Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)
Cinderstorm with the pesky snare can be very good too, inhale.
Bats ultimate while staying on top of the cloaking nightblade.
L2Counter
i still believe you're the one in need of "L2P". The ONLY problem i run into while on my nightblade is large groups that discover me by spamming the entire area. That's it. Now the only reason i don't give as much attention to my nightblade is because it's not in the alliance i want and i don't like ganking the hell out of my own alliance.
Nah not really I do alright.
When you say all those counters are not efficent then that says all there is to say about you.
They are good counters if you know how to use them..
Regarding your hardened ward comment, my hardened ward is 9.7k in pvp atm with purple v14 gear (except willpower jewerly) on my sorcerer. Nearly 100 cp into bastion but not there yet.
So nearly 10k and my build doesn't even have V15 food, v16 gold gear, 100 cp into bastion or undaunted passives for max stats.Edited by Master_Kas on September 30, 2015 11:15AMEU | PC0 -
Master_Kas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Master_Kas wrote: »Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)
Curse no longer pops you out of cloak. I've only spent 20 hours on my NB since 2.1 and I already know that.
I've been playing on my nightblade mainly and the curse explosion still brings me out of cloak o.O (Or perhaps that's my cloak running out) but I'm 99% sure. Want to test this later ? EU | PC0 -
Springt-Über-Zwerge✭✭✭✭Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »What do sorcs and pregnant woman have in common?
- When the bubble pops it's over
--> have enough dps to break the shield and you win the fight vs the sorc.
Unless they spam it again and then stack Healing Ward and Harness Magicka on top of it Shield stacking is the real problem here.
just dont let them have time to cast it keep them ccd
The classes that lack the burst damage to take down the stacked shields also lack that type of CC unless they are Stamina builds.
And your plan only works if you can get the Sorc to run out of Stam
Well im playing main magicka templar. Tell me 1 good templar burst skill Im doing pretty good without because I have high sustained dps with constant CC which burns the shields of the average sorc faster than he can recast. Experienced sorcs on the other hand take a while to kill and require good concentration but thats the case with any of the other classes too
You tell me a good Templar burst skill, I would really like to know. There is Dark Flare but you must have incredible DPS if it burns through a sorc's shields faster than he can stack them. If you jab the Sorc then you can't CC them and the Magicka morph of jabs is too weak against stacked shields.
Backlash, the purgeable burst? Eclipse the CC reflect? Blazing Shield, the 4k damage Shield? Tell me pl0x.
These aren't Temp skills but...proximity det will do it when combined with an ultimate but those don't actually CC the Sorc and the Sorc can see that burst coming from a mile away. I am stumped on this so please guide me with your superior wisdom.
In all seriousness though, I would like to see a skill rotation of pure Templar skills that can take down a shield stacking Sorc. Would be interesting to see
Im neither using eclipse nor BS nor backlash because they are more or less useless (backlash will do 5 damage (minimum amount) to shieldstacking sorcs because damage on shields does not count as damage).
My bread and butter dps are jabs and the magicka morph is good if you have enough spelldmg.
My CC is toppling charge and if you time it right you wont apply the CC immunity from jabs most of the time (also toppling charge is really good damage). Combined with that I use proxy det which works perfectly (you just need some practice until you have the timing)
Why would I stick to just templar skills if 2 of the 3 abilities a sorc uses to get his shields are not from his class?
btw here are my stats. Im recently testing the Atronarch over the Aprentice for more magicka sustain:
Well I asked for Templar skills because you claimed you had a Templar burst skill. Jabs isn't a burst skill even with that spell damage. Prox Det does provide enough damage to get through a HW with that spell damage but no way would it get through Harness Magicka and healing wars too.
Prox Det is also easily counter able by sorc's since you have a giantmred circle around you. I don't know of many good sorc's that wouldn't make use of Bolt Escape and Encase after seeing that red circle around you.
I didnt claim to have one. That was a rethoric question because there is none.
thats right but Jabs are sustained DPS but very high sustained DPS thats why they force the sorc to recast his wards over and over and stop him from doing anything else if you add proxy det and stuns or an ultimade their shields will melt like butter.
BE is one of the reasons for toppling charge most sorcs will port before proxy explodes giving you enough time to charge them and apply the detonation. For enhance I have cleansing ritual on my main bar. Its also one of the best counters to a lot of skills sorcs normally usePC,EU, EP
Der-über-Zwerge-springt (Argonian, Magplar), Surtur Velothi (Dunmer, Magdk), Jaqene H'ghar (Imperial, Stamblade), Puppyslayer (Orc, Stamdk), Dagoth Era (Dunmer, Magblade), Æthmon Trevas (Altmer, Magsorc), Der-Zuletzt-Lacht (Argonian, Magden), Sir-Lanzeflott (Redguard, Stamplar)0 -
Springt-Über-Zwerge✭✭✭✭Master_Kas wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Master_Kas wrote: »Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)
Curse no longer pops you out of cloak. I've only spent 20 hours on my NB since 2.1 and I already know that.
I've been playing on my nightblade mainly and the curse explosion still brings me out of cloak o.O (Or perhaps that's my cloak running out) but I'm 99% sure. Want to test this later ?
curse breaks cloak because its no dot and is not removed by cloak just like eclipse PC,EU, EP
Der-über-Zwerge-springt (Argonian, Magplar), Surtur Velothi (Dunmer, Magdk), Jaqene H'ghar (Imperial, Stamblade), Puppyslayer (Orc, Stamdk), Dagoth Era (Dunmer, Magblade), Æthmon Trevas (Altmer, Magsorc), Der-Zuletzt-Lacht (Argonian, Magden), Sir-Lanzeflott (Redguard, Stamplar)0