Fix hardened ward - if you won't address shield stacking

Maulkin

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

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Master_Kas wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)

Curse no longer pops you out of cloak. I've only spent 20 hours on my NB since 2.1 and I already know that.

I've been playing on my nightblade mainly and the curse explosion still brings me out of cloak o.O (Or perhaps that's my cloak running out) but I'm 99% sure. Want to test this later ?

curse breaks cloak because its no dot and is not removed by cloak just like eclipse

In my experience since 2.1 the target takes the damage but does not pop out of cloak.

Master_Kas wrote: »

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mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Streak + Curse is also very good (just reapply curse each time it explodes)

Curse no longer pops you out of cloak. I've only spent 20 hours on my NB since 2.1 and I already know that.

I've been playing on my nightblade mainly and the curse explosion still brings me out of cloak o.O (Or perhaps that's my cloak running out) but I'm 99% sure. Want to test this later ?

Sure. /W me in-game late in the evening

mrdankles

It only absorbs 50% of what it can in pvp...

Inig0

BigTone wrote: »

L2Deeps

Oh look, the author of "How to Sorc, by BigTone"

also to op: L2P

Zlater

Firerock2 wrote: »

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Zlater wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Zlater wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.

I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.

Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.

Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.

But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster

Finally someone who gets it. Hardened Ward isn't OP and isn't in need of a nerf. It's the classes that rely on heavy healing that need to be buffed because their current defenses just don't cut it.

Firerock2 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.

I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.

Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.

Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.

But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster

I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.

I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you need to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.

I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.

Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.

Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.

Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.

And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.

Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.

Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.

I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?

"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.

"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "

No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.

Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record

Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.

Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.

Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.

"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"

You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.

Firerock2 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

I believe a 9k ward is not equal to 9k more hp, or even a 9k heal. Wards take full, unmitigated damage whereas my health pool doesn't. Heals are applied to your health pool which takes less damage than a shield. So what a templar invests into their BoL can last longer than what a sorc invests into his ward. I'm not trying to say that wards do not act as health buffers, of course they do, but you can't say a 9k ward is op cos it's bigger than most heals, you have to factor in mitigation.

I would argue that a 9k Ward is more powerful than a 9k heal.

Not only because the Ward gives me crit immunity, but it's also proactive with duration, which allows me to play offensively in PvP. Gives breathing space. Being aggressive is how you win, not by spamming heals, because health is bungy jumping up and down.

Heals being reactive, narrows the window for playing aggressively and pressuring back, compared to stacked shields.

But I dont think Ward OP needs nerf. Not after PvP'ing on my sorc and meeting the new fotm Shield Breaker brigade. With Hardened Ward up you explode in seconds from machine-gun type light attacks, use Healing Ward you die even faster

I agree with you, I wasn't saying I would rather have a 9k heal, I was just arguing with someone who thought hardened ward was more powerful than a templars best heal (BoL), which it isn't for reasons outlined by another commenter in this thread. I love the crit immunity but given that surprise attack can crit for 13k along with WB I feel that crit immunity on a 9k ward is still needed.

I'm all for being offensive to win but this isn't possible all the time, sometimes you have to do something with large amounts of incoming damage, something other than just accepting death. Sorcs used to have an escape, and still do to an extent, but it just isn't nearly as effective as it used to be, we cannot guarantee escape anymore. We can't block damage for more than a few hits and we can't dodge roll more than twice. The heals available to us tick slowly over time.

I feel like I might get myself into trouble for the following, but I'm just talking mechanics guys, I'm not trying to assassinate your class or say you got it good or anything. Just comparing the mechanics of dealing with damage.

Magicka DKs can reflect all damage except aoe, channels and melee, and can also use a resto staff the same as a sorc. They are inherently more tanky and because the majority of their skills are melee they can carry a s&b without too much alteration to their playstyle. If I started carrying a s&b again I think I might be able to drop hardened ward, but I would rather give up a skill slot for my shield. I'm not saying magicka dks are balanced; I have no right commenting on that, I'm simply referring to mechanics.

Stamina DKS have the 2h skill line at their disposal so like most stam dps builds they can use rally and vigor together for a decent heal, combining this with more blocks and dodge rolls than a sorc can pull off to avoid damage. They also wear mostly medium armour which offers more damage mitigation than light armour.

Stamina NBs are in a similar position only with the added advantage of the occasional cloak to disappear.

And magicka NBs can just be where ever they want and never have to be seen. I'm exaggerating to emphasise their ability to use cloak a lot.

Magicka Templars can spam burst heals to overcome incoming damage, I know this cos I see them doing it.

Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb it with a health buffer. If we dodge roll or block we take a risk that we won't be able to break out of the next cc. If we let it hit us it won't be mitigated much by our armour so will really hurt. We don't have anything to heal through it with and we can no longer run from it. Hardened ward is the only thing still keeping sorcs viable on the battlefield. As you said it gives us a bit of breathing space to go offensive. Nerfing it would be a disaster for the class. Especially considering mine is 9.8k with 34k mag and 77cp in bastion. With less magicka and cp some vet players are stuck with a 5-6k hardened ward. This skill definitely needs nerf immunity imo. The people crying nerf on this skill are not accounting for the other methods of avoiding damage available to the other classes.

I'd really like to see this post in which another commenter explains how BoL is better than hardened ward. Which post # is it exactly?

"Sorcs used to have an escape...we cannot guarantee escape anymore"
Sorcs do have an escape and they never should have been guaranteed an escape. That's like saying its hard being X class now because I'm not guaranteed to not die anymore.

"We can't block damage for more than a few hits "

No Magicka build can unless they invest in some stamina. You think the other classes have it easier when it comes to blocking? You're wrong.

Why not just say that Magicka DKs can reflect only projectiles. Also since most of their skills are melee that means if they want ranged damage then they need to carry a staff or a bow, not S&B. Also carrying a S&B is just as disadvantageous for them as it is for you, their spell damage is decreased which lowers their overall DPS. I would like to see you drop hardened ward and PvP without it. Plz record

Again how can a Stam DK roll more than a Stam Sorc? Show me the passives. I can show you a Sorc passive that increases Stam regen by 10%.

Last time I mentioned this you ignored it by saying you didn't believe and I told you to look it up so here we go again.

Breath of Life base cost is 4k Magicka and the only passive Templar's get to help with resource management is a 4% reduction in spell cost (this pales in comparison to Sorc passives BTW). If you have seen a Templar spam BoL to deal with great amounts of incoming damage then you saw him blow through his Magicka bar. If he is a regen build you should be able to out dps his inadequate healing. If he is a pure dps build stacked high into Magicka then he will run out of Magicka fast because his regen will be ***. When Temps spam heal that is all they are able to do.

"Sorcs only real method of dealing with incoming damage is to absorb"

You can move around the battlefield easily. If you want to deal with incoming damage how about you bolt away from that Wrecking Blow or AoE? Hardened Ward is far from your only real method of dealing with damage.

You're confusing me. You're arguing with me like you want hardened ward nerfed but you say you don't want it nerfed; you just want heals buffed. Well we're on the same wavelength, and you're in the wrong thread. Stop wasting my time please. I'm commenting in this thread to oppose the idea of a nerf to hardened ward, not to try to stop heals getting buffed.

Edit: didn't mean to double quote, I'very been typing on my phone.

I'm not in the wrong thread. This started when you made a remark about Hardened Ward not being sustainable so I showed you the cost of Hardened Ward and the cost of the other classes main defense skill along with the resource management passives. I did this to inform you that sorcs hardened wars is easily sustained compared to other classes.

My last response was aggressive because you claimed that someone told me how BoL is better than Hardened Ward. They didn't. That's the only reason my last post is argumentative.

All I have been doing is correcting you on your idea that Hardened Ward is hard to sustain and I have been defending my position when someone claims it to be false.

I'm also typing on a phone so forgive me for any typos.

1health + 9kshield + 3001damage(*300%execute)= dead
9khealth + armor + mitigation + 1shield + 9001damage = alive

Health keeps you alive a shield doesnt, I thought I might remind you of what health is meant to do xP

You know the larger heals come when you are lower in health near execute range?

BTW 300% damage isn't that bad when it's overtime (Radiant Destruction) seeing as you can just spam Hardened Ward or roll dodge the damage now.

Also If you want large heals you need to use light armor so you don't really get much more mitigation then a Sorc counterpart. Nice try.
XD

I don't really understand... shields are not health, health is health. It doesn't matter how big your shields are, if you have no health... you are dead, or stuck in lag xD. What you are saying is that shields = health. Therefore by your logic my maximum usable health is only 9k because my shield doesnt stack with itself. Light armor users usually have about 10k in armor atm which is about a 15% reduction. Light armor doesn't increase your heals either, just your sustainability.

Theres always counters to everything, but we aren't talking about the many different counters in each and every situation. I am only comparing BoL and HW under typical scenarios where the conditions stack against them about the same. 9k is a lot of damage for a whack or whatever, but if it's a crit then I can see where it comes from.

You must be confused, I never said shields=health I said shields are similar to health. BTW your math doesn't add up or you have severely gimped your character. You said if shields did equate to health then you would only have 9k usable health. Where is the rest of it? You have to have atleast a base of 10k real health and then add on a 9k shield.

A shield that protects from crits in my opinion is superior to a heal that needs to crit to get off decent numbers. Thats what I'm saying.I also want to add in that burst healing is far more expensive than Hardened Ward so LA is required if you want to sustain high SD/Magicka to be able to pull off those large heals.

My point all along has been that Hardened Ward is easier to spam in order to keep yourself alive than a burst heal, combine that with the fact that shields protect from crits and HW is better than BoL. Unless of course you are trying to be a healer, but I'm talking about small scale, sole survivability.

But shields aren't similar to health, imagine you're a healer and a clannfear is charging you, the tank jumps in its path to protect you, then he gets hit and you heal him. A shield is like that tank and you are like health. If the tank dies there's just no tank, so rez him/her. If you die, there's no tank and there's no healer and there's no DD, because they are going to die with you, probably XD If hardened ward is "healing" so to speak; you for 9k, that means the only damage you can get hit with is up to 9k because it doesn't grow with each cast. If you are actually healing yourself for 9k that means the amount of damage you can take is up to whatever your actual max health is, because you can stack heals on top of themselves until you hit the max you decide. This means a shield user with a 9k shield has only 9k to do stuff with. Everything else is death coming knocking.

There's an actual morph that gives you magicka back, the same as there is a morph to HW that increases healing instead of making it big. We can choose them but we don't, don't tell me you have to choose LA for sustain, because you actually have other options, even if they aren't much good for PvE groups. In terms of cost BoL and HW net about the same return... Wait let me explain... Although HW is cheaper shield stackers can keep them up against a magicka DD almost indefinately because what they are doing different is using HM to restore magicka. At 40k magicka and 7 LA you are restoring enough magicka to cover the skill cost of almost both HM and HW combined. While this means nothing against a Stam DD, it means lots of free magicka against a magicka DD, especially a jabbing temp. What's cool is that every single class can do this, Nb's are actually the best at it, as they are almost everything

I don't want BoL, HW or cloak nerfed. I want to stop trying abilities and thinking, "well that was underwhelming."

Derra

Firerock2 wrote: »

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Derra wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I'd say L2P without hardened ward to all the worriers. It is too strong, it should simply cost much more and not last as long IMO, let it stay strong numbers wise, but make it cost what it's worth. And no, not every player in the game should have to run one set to counter one skill, that means there is a problem with that skill.

Given that most average sorcs will have a hardened ward of about 9-10k at the most it would seem a bit pointless reducing it's length down from 20 seconds, or whatever it is. The chances of the ward lasting 20 seconds when you're taking damage are non-existent. And why does it matter that the ward lasts 20 seconds outside of combat?

As to it's cost; I can tell you that with 47cp in magician and no cost-reduction glyphs mine costs 2355 magicka. My regen is 1600 so if I just spam hardened ward I'm going to run out of magicka fairly quickly in combat. How much more do you think it should cost and why?

I ask why because my 9.8k hardened ward can be broken in 2 hits by many skills, with overflow damage to spare. How many hits should it be able to take, and why?

I have been trying to live without it, to counter the counter that is shieldbreaker. I wear 2 pieces of heavy armour and use boundless storm and my spell resistance is 22k, physical resistance is 18k.

I still need to use hardened ward, although less than I did in 7 light. Why do I still need to use it? Because I don't have access to a powerful heal, streak was nerfed so I can only use it 3 times without being vunerable, I can't dodge-roll more than twice or block more than twice.

How do you suggest I learn to live without it? If I had access to the 2.3k ticks from vigor then I would use vigor instead. I'm already using 2 pieces of heavy armour, if I wore any more I would lose the 5 piece light armour bonus, and as a magicka dps that would be silly.

So I'm open to suggestions, but I don't think you know the class very well so forgive me if I find it hard to take you seriously.

Base cost of hardened ward is 3112 Magicka

Base cost of Breath of Life is 4070 Magicka

Base cost of Green Dragon Blood: 3830 Magicka

Sorcs also get passives that increase their regen and reduce cost of spells.

You see, I want to believe that you have resource management problems on your sorc but I'm not a complete idiot. Sorry

You can spam your ward far longer than tanks can spam their heals. Your ward also is larger than any burst heal a DK or Temp can get.

Templars also get a cost reduction passive. Also they have a skill buffing their magica regeneration for 480 flat.
The other morph for breath of life (honor the dead) get a magica return if cast on a target below 70% health for 8s.
Breath of life is an AOE it heals three targets. Ward is self singletarget (+ pets).

I´ve seen breath of live crits on me for 10k in pvp. Templars get 30% increased heals on self with another mandatory skill they have. A 13k bol crit is higher than any ward considering the HP you get also have dmg mitigated by armor/resist even more so.

Everyone knows that dragonblood is sh*t and should be buffed in some way.

What´s your point exactly?

Templar's get a passive that reduce spell cost by 4%. Sorcs get passives that reduce spell cost by 5% and increase regen by 10%. You get a passive that increases regen. Templar's have to lose a skill slot for better resource management when you can do it passively ( keep in mind your spells also cost less).

Yeah BoL can get above 10k but that is if they spec high into Magicka and spell damage which sorcs are also better at because Sorcs get a passive that increases spell damage. You also mentioned that BoL can reach those numbers through a crit. Spells don't always crit and if a Templar doesn't get that 30% increase to healing then BoL would be far less than 10k heals.

You think Honor the Dead is a good morph? Please roll a Templar and use HtD in PvP, then you can watch as your Magicka is consumes but you get no health because the smart healing system targeted someone else. OH WAIT I know, I could just let my health fall into execute range so I am guaranteed the heal, that's a good idea right?

I won't even get into the fact that Hardened Ward protects from crits while Health doesn't.

If we want to use anecdotal evidence, well I have seen Hardened Wards that reach 13k. Maybe you aren't doing it right?

Alone the fact that you´re stating one of the best skills in the entire game as a LOST skillslot pretty much says it all. I´d take that skill over 10% magica regen any day of the week without a second thought.

You can reach 13k hardened ward in pvp but builds doing so are hardly vaible at all because they sacrifice skillslots / mundus / good set bonuses for that.

I do think hotd is a good morph. It´s only problem is that every decent templar can sustain near infinite spam of BOL making a resource focused morph irrelevant. Why go for a resource morph if you have infinite resources anyway and can get an AOE heal...
When you say our spells cost less do you figure in they´re also less useful as soon as you got atleast one friendly player in your closer proximity?

Also with the right trait / cp setup and enough mitigation (around 20k armor - you can reach this in light armor) with this update i would consider mitigated dmg on HP preferable when compared to unmitigated dmg on shields even though they can´t be crit.

But maybe if you´re having resource management issues on your templar your just doing it wrong - just saying...

Darnathian

Rayste wrote: »

This is sadly a L2P issue OP. I run into players that have no trouble breaking my shields. Mostly NBs (very quick combos with ani canceling) and DKs (guy hit me for 17k with a heavy attack just last night.

There is a set that was specifically designed to go through shields.

Stop whining

You got hit with a heavy attack and he needs help? Lol. Interupt him.

Master_Kas

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

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Master_Kas wrote: »

Lol all the forumsorcs here

Lol at the forumblade defending the fotm class on every thread (don't touch my Cloak!) while also finding time to visit every Sorc thread and ask for more Sorc nerfs.

Kind of goes both ways

FOTM are both nbs and sorcs my friend.

Atzel

I managed to read the all posts! Thanks you guys for all your info i am way more skilled in PvP thanks to your knowledge.
Today i learned that Templars got the best ultimates , DK best gap closers , Sorcs the best class heals and NB's... well someone must be the underdog class.

Brrrofski

My shield barely lasts two seconds in pvp now.

Sure I can keep applying it. But all that time I'm doing that I'm not doing as much dps to the enemy.

tist

Hardened ward is very weak compared to last patch. Not sure what you are QQ'ing about.

_adhyffbjjjf12

Hardened ward basically protects you from 1 hit at the cost of magicka and the opportunity to do damage in that second and the skill slot. Compare that to having an extra 10k of health plus mitigation. It's not rocket science, sImply consider opportunity cost and mitigation levels and a balanced play as opposed to 'omg look at that skill' dumbovision.