tinythinker wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

1. Both versions are "DPS" versions and both do extremely well if you have the right build. You must obviously be a stamina Templar to make that claim.

5. Any competent Templar will be able to use jabs regardless of their position and the quality of their opponent, open field or not. Templars who actually pvp and use this ability have an assortment of abilities to use to be able to keep their opponent in the jabs.

7. Again you must be a stamina Templar as magicka Templars do not have to worry about spending magicka to cleanse.

1. Yes, both do DPS and any ability can hit harder with "the right build", but Jabs has always been viewed as offering higher damage in a base comparison of its tooltip description to Sweep. Prior to it becoming a stamina morph and before the standardized buff system of 1.6, Jabs had a higher crit chance for low health enemies. After becoming a stamina morph and with the addition of the standardized buff system, it simply procs a buff for higher weapon crit.

Puncturing Sweep used to be a the lesser choice back when Jabs was a magicka skill hitting low health targets for higher damage, with its claim to fame being a larger conal area of effect. When they made changes to Puncturing Sweep they decided to give it a healing element to make it more appealing and to make up for taking away the morph with the crit buff from magicka builds.

In other words the ability went from Jabs hitting for more crit damage and Sweep hitting more targets, to Jabs hitting for more crit damage and Sweeping giving a heal. Which is how I summarized it in the comment you quoted, complete with "DPS" being in quotes to point out that this view can be misleading.

5. That misses my point entirely, which was very clearly made: "Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE." It isn't whether a skilled Templar can use Strikes in a variety of locations, it's that any melee range AoE, including Strikes, is going to be *more* effective in confined/narrow spaces. That's a big part of why people are complaining about Strikes in Cyrodiil delves and in IC. Any Templar, of any skill, can do much better with Strikes in the alleys of the districts and in the sewer tunnels. With lower damage from opponents as part of 2.1, spamming this skill has less risk than before as well, making it even more effective in tight spaces.

7. Again, I was very clear: "Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS." I never said magicka Templars would quickly run out of magicka just from Cleansing alone, yet forcing any healing magicka build to constantly fight off debuffs means less casting of other abilities (like those that do damage) and more openings for opponents, especially in a 1 v 3 like the OP was describing.

If the Templar has a magicka build for greater sustain decreasing their DPS even more is a boon, and if they are built as a glass cannon with low sustain decreasing DPS and costing that opponent more magicka over time is an especially good thing. I personally rarely run out of magicka even with a higher damage build (Argonian potion buff helps as do CS points in spell cost reduction and magicka regen) but not every magicka Templar will have the gear and experience to make sure of that, and some stam Templars may have magicka sustain issues, so why not press every possible advantage?

In an extended fight like what happens more often now, why not make magicka Templars cast attack skill less and leave them with less magicka/interrupt their healing a bit, especially in a group fight?

Summary: Your incorrect assertions that I have no experience with magicka Templar play doesn't change what I wrote in terms of advice to the OP. If you let a Templar get you into a hard to maneuver space and you don't try to CC/Debuff the Templar in a 1 v X situation, you are giving an advantage to that opponent, and giving away an advantage in PvP is never a good strategy.

MissBizz wrote: »

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

Seriously. That. There. It gives my Templar nightmares at night. Also almost always kills me. Maybe a long time PvP'er can deal with the constant CC's/Roots/Snares.. but I have not yet found the way. (Yes, I break free, that only works a couple times)

sixuponthelot wrote: »

duuude9192b14_ESO wrote: »

Direct counter to puncturing strikes: Reverberating bash, then apply pressure.

If they won't shut up and take a wrecking blow to the face during the channel then this ^^ CC them and cut their healing and continue to wrecking blow.

JDar wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Or you can just wear 5x Heavy and just eat them. They hit pathetically low with good mitigation.

No thanks, I actually like having magicka.

tinythinker wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

Seriously. That. There. It gives my Templar nightmares at night. Also almost always kills me. Maybe a long time PvP'er can deal with the constant CC's/Roots/Snares.. but I have not yet found the way. (Yes, I break free, that only works a couple times)

Wearing a piece of medium armor and using Shuffle ("While wearing Medium Armor, removes and grants immunity to snaring effects. Increases snare immunity duration by .5 seconds for each piece of Medium Armor equipped") can help a little, as does purging/cleansing snares. Doesn't help with knockdowns/knockups/knockbacks or stuns, though.

Shuffle gives you an auto-dodge chance in addition to immunity to snares, which saves stamina to break free from other forms of crowd control. Purge/Cleansing Ritual also saves on breaking free from snares. If you are doing the "all three armor types" gear set for the Undaunted passive, like 5L/1M/1H or 5H/1M/1L might want to add Shuffle to the line-up.

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Wrecking blow is more of a 'I win" ability

Does the highest amount of damage in game, shortest channel, provides a CC, and you cannot be interrupted. This is what we call 'balance'

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Wrecking blow is more of a 'I win" ability

Does the highest amount of damage in game, shortest channel, provides a CC, and you cannot be interrupted. This is what we call 'balance'

Don't just stand there watching.

timidobserver wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

Wrecking blow is more of a 'I win" ability

Does the highest amount of damage in game, shortest channel, provides a CC, and you cannot be interrupted. This is what we call 'balance'

Don't just stand there watching.

You can reduce puncturing sweep damage by a whopping 25% with champion points on top of your mitigation and the Cyrodiil reduction. That alone makes wrecking blow superior.