Is anything going to be done about puncturing strikes?

Winnamine

This templar looking for a guild?

trimsic_ESO

Lettigall wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

While I agree that there is some way to counter Puncturing Sweep (CC, walk through the attacker, ...), this ability is still OP. It's the only ability they use in the sewers against pack of mobs, and they really don't need to use any other ability. That's a really poor meta game.

Templars have only 3 dps skills in class tree and of course best of them will be used often. And what's so OP about this skill? That it can kill weak mobs and players who haven't learned to be mobile in fight? It's so OP that you even don't need to use any skills, spend no resources to counter it, just walk pass the templar.

This skill is same as it was in 1.6 only difference is that IC brought pve players to pvp zone.

So if I understand you well, people should only use their class skills to DPS ?
No weapon skills ?

The truth is that puncturing sweep is much better than any other ability to DPS and this is the reason why they spam it.

Winnamine

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

While I agree that there is some way to counter Puncturing Sweep (CC, walk through the attacker, ...), this ability is still OP. It's the only ability they use in the sewers against pack of mobs, and they really don't need to use any other ability. That's a really poor meta game.

Templars have only 3 dps skills in class tree and of course best of them will be used often. And what's so OP about this skill? That it can kill weak mobs and players who haven't learned to be mobile in fight? It's so OP that you even don't need to use any skills, spend no resources to counter it, just walk pass the templar.

This skill is same as it was in 1.6 only difference is that IC brought pve players to pvp zone.

So if I understand you well, people should only use their class skills to DPS ?
No weapon skills ?

The truth is that puncturing sweep is much better than any other ability to DPS and this is the reason why they spam it.

We spam puncturing sweep in the sewers because it gives decent melee dps and heals.

For the record, how many skills should people be using when farming pve mobs in sewers?
Most of us just pick the highest aoe dps skill available and use it repeatedly, not terribly exciting, I know, but it's called a grind for a reason.
Since many templars are healers, they often don't have many weapon skill lines leveled up, perhaps just resto/s&b, which do not afford viable dps options, so a class skill is a necessity.

Francescolg

Dear @Gern_Verkheart,
you seriously need to learn the game mechanics... nothing else! Channeled Spells tend to be way stronger than instant spells. As your Wrecking Blow can be interrupted, so can Puncturing Sweep be interrupted

• The ways to interrupt are:
• 1. Bash in melee (ANY weapon)
• 2. Crushing Shock (Destro)
• 3. Venom Arrow (Bow)
• 4. All skills (+relative passives) that say "interrupts casting targets" (there could also be CP-skills which favor some interrupt-mechanic (stun/disorient/knockdown/off-balance)

This is when skill comes into play! Casted spells, as Crystal Fragments or Aimed Shot, have 1,x casting time, so has Punturing Sweep: 1,x casting time. In this short time window you can:

1. a) Interrupt from distance
2. b) Get close to the target, while holding block, and bash it (both mouse buttons, first the right button, hold it - than the left button while holding the right one)
3. c) Use other form of CCs

There are many possible ways to counter a templar starting to 'puncture' you. I think the easiest would be, you hold block-so you don't get knocked back. This means he'll be "set off", this is when you have to make a heavy attack or a CC, to counter him.

I'm even wondering how 3 players can loose versus one templar. Templars are the weakest class against interrupts.
So: In PvP you have to interrupt templars all day long, no matter if they heal, beam or puncture, everything can be interrupted so easily.
BUT, to do so, you need to use spells/skills which can interrupt, every melee char knows this mechanic. Unfortunately, many PvP players run round with daggers/swords, the problem with being a caster and using melee weapons is that you MISS spells as crushing shock.
BUT the main problem is that players do not interrupt at all. I can see this in every f.. random group in a dungeon, when healer- and caster-NPCs are not interrupted at all. In PvE this might be ok, in PvP it is not.

tinythinker

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

bosmern_ESO

Wrecking blow is more of a 'I win" ability

Does the highest amount of damage in game, shortest channel, provides a CC, and you cannot be interrupted. This is what we call 'balance'

Lettigall

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

While I agree that there is some way to counter Puncturing Sweep (CC, walk through the attacker, ...), this ability is still OP. It's the only ability they use in the sewers against pack of mobs, and they really don't need to use any other ability. That's a really poor meta game.

Templars have only 3 dps skills in class tree and of course best of them will be used often. And what's so OP about this skill? That it can kill weak mobs and players who haven't learned to be mobile in fight? It's so OP that you even don't need to use any skills, spend no resources to counter it, just walk pass the templar.

This skill is same as it was in 1.6 only difference is that IC brought pve players to pvp zone.

So if I understand you well, people should only use their class skills to DPS ?
No weapon skills ?

The truth is that puncturing sweep is much better than any other ability to DPS and this is the reason why they spam it.

When the class ability is better then your equipped weapons abilities you should use it. If I understand you want that templar class abilities are weaker then weapon abilities?

danno8

Francescolg wrote: »

Dear @Gern_Verkheart,
you seriously need to learn the game mechanics... nothing else! Channeled Spells tend to be way stronger than instant spells. As your Wrecking Blow can be interrupted, so can Puncturing Sweep be interrupted

• The ways to interrupt are:
• 1. Bash in melee (ANY weapon)
• 2. Crushing Shock (Destro)
• 3. Venom Arrow (Bow)
• 4. All skills (+relative passives) that say "interrupts casting targets" (there could also be CP-skills which favor some interrupt-mechanic (stun/disorient/knockdown/off-balance)

This is when skill comes into play! Casted spells, as Crystal Fragments or Aimed Shot, have 1,x casting time, so has Punturing Sweep: 1,x casting time. In this short time window you can:

1. a) Interrupt from distance
2. b) Get close to the target, while holding block, and bash it (both mouse buttons, first the right button, hold it - than the left button while holding the right one)
3. c) Use other form of CCs

There are many possible ways to counter a templar starting to 'puncture' you. I think the easiest would be, you hold block-so you don't get knocked back. This means he'll be "set off", this is when you have to make a heavy attack or a CC, to counter him.

I'm even wondering how 3 players can loose versus one templar. Templars are the weakest class against interrupts.
So: In PvP you have to interrupt templars all day long, no matter if they heal, beam or puncture, everything can be interrupted so easily.
BUT, to do so, you need to use spells/skills which can interrupt, every melee char knows this mechanic. Unfortunately, many PvP players run round with daggers/swords, the problem with being a caster and using melee weapons is that you MISS spells as crushing shock.
BUT the main problem is that players do not interrupt at all. I can see this in every f.. random group in a dungeon, when healer- and caster-NPCs are not interrupted at all. In PvE this might be ok, in PvP it is not.

Wrecking Blow can not be interrupted, although you can still stun them, just not bash or use a spell that "interrupts".

I have heard that PS also can not be bashed or interrupted but I have never tested. I know I get stunned while using it but I can not recall ever being "bashed" or "interrupted".

Winnamine

tinythinker wrote: »

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

I was thinking the ulti OP was talking about was nova too, but you can't "spam" novas. They're super expensive. I don't know if there's a more expensive ulti in the whole game than nova, and you can just roll out of it, easy esp. for stamina builds like OP's.
Edit: unless the templar is emp...in which case this whole discussion just got so much more irrelevant.

tinythinker

Winnamine wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

I was thinking the ulti OP was talking about was nova too, but you can't "spam" novas. They're super expensive. I don't know if there's a more expensive ulti in the whole game than nova, and you can just roll out of it, easy esp. for stamina builds like OP's.
Edit: unless the templar is emp...in which case this whole discussion just got so much more irrelevant.

I was just guessing, but, if it really is (the non-ultimate ability) Eclipse that shouldn't have been a big problem unless they were all using spell projectiles only, yet that didn't fit the context. You actually could spam Radial Sweep because it is really cheap, and versus three opponents if you use the Empowering Sweep morph that's a 27% damage reduction for the Templar plus a mediocre damage AoE for melee range attackers. But again, those attackers could run/roll out of it and swap to a ranged ability (anything with bow, the dual wield skill Spamnado--err--Steel Tornado, the dual wield skill Hidden Blade, etc).

asneakybanana

Laggus wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Feels like an "I win button" against any melee stamina build.

I have 22k phys resist and 25k spell resist..i got CC'd and spam jabbed to death before i could break the CC. Death recap was 5.5k per spam. God knows how much that would melt medium and light armour wearers. It needs more toning down. PTS was the same and they toned it a little but obviously not enough.

Sorry about that xD but in all fairness I was emp and the highest I saw per ticket on my jabs was like 3k. I could maybe get that to like 3.5k if I was running v16 perfect gear but I'm not yet

manny254

tinythinker wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

I was thinking the ulti OP was talking about was nova too, but you can't "spam" novas. They're super expensive. I don't know if there's a more expensive ulti in the whole game than nova, and you can just roll out of it, easy esp. for stamina builds like OP's.
Edit: unless the templar is emp...in which case this whole discussion just got so much more irrelevant.

I was just guessing, but, if it really is (the non-ultimate ability) Eclipse that shouldn't have been a big problem unless they were all using spell projectiles only, yet that didn't fit the context. You actually could spam Radial Sweep because it is really cheap, and versus three opponents if you use the Empowering Sweep morph that's a 27% damage reduction for the Templar plus a mediocre damage AoE for melee range attackers. But again, those attackers could run/roll out of it and swap to a ranged ability (anything with bow, the dual wield skill Spamnado--err--Steel Tornado, the dual wield skill Hidden Blade, etc).

I haven't used it this patch yet but I used to run bloodspawn, heroic slash, and with combat frenzy you can use empowering sweep alot. It creates an interesting play style where you burst players down by stacking chances to proc burning light at the same time. Blazing+Empowering+Jabs can create some great burst if you get some lucky procs. Invasion and the snare on heroic slash also help with hitting the target with jabs. This was last update though so I have no idea how it would work now.

tinythinker

manny254 wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

I was thinking the ulti OP was talking about was nova too, but you can't "spam" novas. They're super expensive. I don't know if there's a more expensive ulti in the whole game than nova, and you can just roll out of it, easy esp. for stamina builds like OP's.
Edit: unless the templar is emp...in which case this whole discussion just got so much more irrelevant.

I was just guessing, but, if it really is (the non-ultimate ability) Eclipse that shouldn't have been a big problem unless they were all using spell projectiles only, yet that didn't fit the context. You actually could spam Radial Sweep because it is really cheap, and versus three opponents if you use the Empowering Sweep morph that's a 27% damage reduction for the Templar plus a mediocre damage AoE for melee range attackers. But again, those attackers could run/roll out of it and swap to a ranged ability (anything with bow, the dual wield skill Spamnado--err--Steel Tornado, the dual wield skill Hidden Blade, etc).

I haven't used it this patch yet but I used to run bloodspawn, heroic slash, and with combat frenzy you can use empowering sweep alot. It creates an interesting play style where you burst players down by stacking chances to proc burning light at the same time. Blazing+Empowering+Jabs can create some great burst if you get some lucky procs. Invasion and the snare on heroic slash also help with hitting the target with jabs. This was last update though so I have no idea how it would work now.

Relating to my previous comment, I was thinking Nova at first for what the OP was talking about since it also has a "sun"-like name, but Empowering Sweep makes more sense with the "Templar Ult Spam".

To your point, I think with the Burning Light passive you could have fun in IC because there are so many enemy players and mobs around. Just pop Empowering Sweep, get huge damage reduction and "tag" all combatants with damage (plus any who run into the AoE while it lasts) and have fun with Puncturing Strikes. A magicka build wouldn't use Heroic Slash but could still get more ult from the Sweep morph since they are also healing while doing damage.

Docmandu

Francescolg wrote: »

Dear @Gern_Verkheart,
you seriously need to learn the game mechanics... nothing else! Channeled Spells tend to be way stronger than instant spells. As your Wrecking Blow can be interrupted

I must say I LOL'ed when reading this.. maybe you yourself should read up on some patch notes :-)

lifefrombelowb14_ESO

Zheg wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Feels like an "I win button" against any melee stamina build.

Walk through them, or sidestep. You're still in melee range, they're hitting air; you're welcome.

asneakybanana wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Feels like an "I win button" against any melee stamina build.

Try wrecking blow against jabs spammers
The cc and damage is really strong againSt it.

You can also bash them though its harder than just walking into them.

Soris

danno8 wrote: »

Anyone who is asking for a nerf to Templars in any way does in fact need to L2P. I can help you with some advice OP:

Have 1 of your friends do nothing but spam an immobilize (like the Bow line Arrow Spray morph that anyone can use) and the Templar will be frozen facing the wrong direction and you can just circle strafe them or walk through them to stay out of the sweeps. There will be nothing he can do but dodge roll (which will kill his stamina) or cleanse ( which will kill his DPS), either way he will go down eventually.

This. Roots are hard counter to jab spam. And now snares are extremely powerful atm, so they too work pretty well against it.

rokrdt05

tinythinker wrote: »

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

1. Both versions are "DPS" versions and both do extremely well if you have the right build. You must obviously be a stamina Templar to make that claim.

5. Any competent Templar will be able to use jabs regardless of their position and the quality of their opponent, open field or not. Templars who actually pvp and use this ability have an assortment of abilities to use to be able to keep their opponent in the jabs.

7. Again you must be a stamina Templar as magicka Templars do not have to worry about spending magicka to cleanse.

Soris

lifefrombelowb14_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Feels like an "I win button" against any melee stamina build.

Walk through them, or sidestep. You're still in melee range, they're hitting air; you're welcome.

asneakybanana wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Feels like an "I win button" against any melee stamina build.

Try wrecking blow against jabs spammers
The cc and damage is really strong againSt it.

You can also bash them though its harder than just walking into them.

I'd be grateful if someone wastes his stamina to bash rupt my jabs.

krim

This thread right after my thread is just gold.

blabafat

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Everyone talks like there is nothing wrong here, but a templar is soloing 3 of us in Crackwood cave right now, and he is almost exclusively just spamming puncturing sweep, thatTemplar ultimate( I think it's called eclipse) and the shield from healing staff. That is it. And he is cleaning the floor with us. I know Im not very good at PvP, but one person shouldn't be able to solo 3 people over and over again when they are only using 3 abilities.

If the player has skill...he should definitely be able to take on people without skill.

That is one player that is killing you lol

driosketch

tinythinker wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Feels like an "I win button" against any melee stamina build.

Walk through them, or sidestep. You're still in melee range, they're hitting air; you're welcome.

Through is better, and they can't block while using the ability so any CC is going to be really effective.

Even better yet, roll through them. It is not so easy to turn while jabbing. A quick CC and lay into them from multiple sides. I speak from experience on both sides of this. A knock down is pretty much all you need to win.

krim

Quoted from ESO dilemma

It doesnt matter watch patch or mechanics. Bads will be bads in 1.5, 1.6, 2.1. The game should have never changed from 1.5 mechanics. People just needed to L2P.

B. I hate to see that guy out there doing all that 1vx looking like a raid boss. I cant do that with my daggers and bow he souldnt either. All my attacks just bounce right off him.

K. Well did you drain his stamina? Did you heal debuff him? Did you drop a fire balista or meatbag? Did any sorc attempt to drop a negate or just use storm atro and overload. Do you even know how he makes it work or just assume exploit?

B. No
B. No
B. Siege LOL no. arrows only I dont have time to go buy and use siege
B. No negates need more dmg.
B. No but theres no way he should be able to do that he is exploiting/hacking

Winnamine

rokrdt05 wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

1. Both versions are "DPS" versions and both do extremely well if you have the right build. You must obviously be a stamina Templar to make that claim.

5. Any competent Templar will be able to use jabs regardless of their position and the quality of their opponent, open field or not. Templars who actually pvp and use this ability have an assortment of abilities to use to be able to keep their opponent in the jabs.

7. Again you must be a stamina Templar as magicka Templars do not have to worry about spending magicka to cleanse.

Cleanse is ridiculously expensive, even if you run a magicka build.
But as templars, we can always just use purifying ritual...which is cheap enough even stam builds shouldn't have trouble affording it.

tinythinker

rokrdt05 wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Things to consider. Some mentioned already in this thread, some not, but worth considering:

1. Puncturing Strikes has two morphs, a stamina morph called Biting Jabs that grants Major Savagery and is the "DPS" version, and Puncturing Sweep which heals for some of the damage done but which does less damage overall.

2. All forms of the ability are frontal conal attacks that knockback one target after the four strikes per cast are done; because there is no collision, you can run/roll right into a caster to get behind them and out of the effect range.

3. This is a channeled ability and you can't block while using it, so the caster is open to all forms of crowd control: roots, snares, disorients, stuns, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc. If you have a stamina Nightblade with you, for example, use Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush, Wrecking Blow, Fear, Wrecking Blow, Wrecking Blow, Ambush...

4. This is a melee range ability, so hitting the caster from a distance works wonders. Especially if the skill used stuns casters (like Venom Arrow). There are also charge abilities (like Shield Charge/its morphs or Toppling Charge) and AoEs (such as Deep Breath) that stun casters.

5. Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE. That gives (magicka) Templars more usefulness in IC, but that is contextual. Outside of IC, in the open field, this advantage with a skill like Puncturing Strikes goes away. Observe how many "Awesome Templar PvP" videos featuring Strikes tend to focus on drawing or finding enemies in(to) confined areas (of approach or maneuverability) such as towers, doorways, breaches, narrow spaces/ledges under bridges, stairways, etc. This is not by accident.

6. The ultimate the OP is referring to is most likely Nova or one of its morphs, which, like the Nightblade's ulti Veil of Blades, reduces damage from enemies in its AoE range while dealing damage to those same enemies. DO NOT EVER fight a Templar inside a Nova, unless you are really good at PvP and want to show off. Let the Nova end before engaging in melee range. The Solar Prison morph is good for being in a group (even a two player group) because of the more powerful synergy, but the other morph, Solar Disturbance, can be better for solo play because it has a massive snare to anyone in its range. Drop it to snare your foes, then Puncturing Strikes for the win while they keep taking damage from your ulti. Counter by using an ability like Purge or Retreating Maneuvers to remove the snare, or, just stay at range.

7. Disease enchants on weapons, meatbag catapults, weapon abilities like Lethal Arrow, class abilities like Dark Flare, etc, etc, give a great healing debuff that can mess up Templars. Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS. In a 3v1, someone should be trying to debuff a healer of any class, including similar melee range AoE spammers like SapBlades.

TL;DR - the "advantage" Templars have with a skill like Puncturing Strikes is situational and knowing how/why it (and other commonly used class abilities) work and what the advantages/disadvantages are makes a difference. Debuff and CC the caster, roll into Puncuring Strikes and out the other side, stay out of Novas, and don't chase Templars into confined/narrow spaces.

1. Both versions are "DPS" versions and both do extremely well if you have the right build. You must obviously be a stamina Templar to make that claim.

5. Any competent Templar will be able to use jabs regardless of their position and the quality of their opponent, open field or not. Templars who actually pvp and use this ability have an assortment of abilities to use to be able to keep their opponent in the jabs.

7. Again you must be a stamina Templar as magicka Templars do not have to worry about spending magicka to cleanse.

1. Yes, both do DPS and any ability can hit harder with "the right build", but Jabs has always been viewed as offering higher damage in a base comparison of its tooltip description to Sweep. Prior to it becoming a stamina morph and before the standardized buff system of 1.6, Jabs had a higher crit chance for low health enemies. After becoming a stamina morph and with the addition of the standardized buff system, it simply procs a buff for higher weapon crit.

Puncturing Sweep used to be a the lesser choice back when Jabs was a magicka skill hitting low health targets for higher damage, with its claim to fame being a larger conal area of effect. When they made changes to Puncturing Sweep they decided to give it a healing element to make it more appealing and to make up for taking away the morph with the crit buff from magicka builds.

In other words the ability went from Jabs hitting for more crit damage and Sweep hitting more targets, to Jabs hitting for more crit damage and Sweeping giving a heal. Which is how I summarized it in the comment you quoted, complete with "DPS" being in quotes to point out that this view can be misleading.

5. That misses my point entirely, which was very clearly made: "Puncturing Strikes and its morphs have *always* been great against trash mobs or inexperienced players in confined spaces, but so is all other melee-range AoE." It isn't whether a skilled Templar can use Strikes in a variety of locations, it's that any melee range AoE, including Strikes, is going to be *more* effective in confined/narrow spaces. That's a big part of why people are complaining about Strikes in Cyrodiil delves and in IC. Any Templar, of any skill, can do much better with Strikes in the alleys of the districts and in the sewer tunnels. With lower damage from opponents as part of 2.1, spamming this skill has less risk than before as well, making it even more effective in tight spaces.

7. Again, I was very clear: "Yes, they can hit Purge or Cleansing Ritual, but that takes up magicka and casting that otherwise would go to DPS." I never said magicka Templars would quickly run out of magicka just from Cleansing alone, yet forcing any healing magicka build to constantly fight off debuffs means less casting of other abilities (like those that do damage) and more openings for opponents, especially in a 1 v 3 like the OP was describing.

If the Templar has a magicka build for greater sustain decreasing their DPS even more is a boon, and if they are built as a glass cannon with low sustain decreasing DPS and costing that opponent more magicka over time is an especially good thing. I personally rarely run out of magicka even with a higher damage build (Argonian potion buff helps as do CS points in spell cost reduction and magicka regen) but not every magicka Templar will have the gear and experience to make sure of that, and some stam Templars may have magicka sustain issues, so why not press every possible advantage?

In an extended fight like what happens more often now, why not make magicka Templars cast attack skill less and leave them with less magicka/interrupt their healing a bit, especially in a group fight?

Summary: Your incorrect assertions that I have no experience with magicka Templar play doesn't change what I wrote in terms of advice to the OP. If you let a Templar get you into a hard to maneuver space and you don't try to CC/Debuff the Templar in a 1 v X situation, you are giving an advantage to that opponent, and giving away an advantage in PvP is never a good strategy.

trimsic_ESO

Lettigall wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

While I agree that there is some way to counter Puncturing Sweep (CC, walk through the attacker, ...), this ability is still OP. It's the only ability they use in the sewers against pack of mobs, and they really don't need to use any other ability. That's a really poor meta game.

Templars have only 3 dps skills in class tree and of course best of them will be used often. And what's so OP about this skill? That it can kill weak mobs and players who haven't learned to be mobile in fight? It's so OP that you even don't need to use any skills, spend no resources to counter it, just walk pass the templar.

This skill is same as it was in 1.6 only difference is that IC brought pve players to pvp zone.

So if I understand you well, people should only use their class skills to DPS ?
No weapon skills ?

The truth is that puncturing sweep is much better than any other ability to DPS and this is the reason why they spam it.

When the class ability is better then your equipped weapons abilities you should use it. If I understand you want that templar class abilities are weaker then weapon abilities?

No I want that skills are balanced, so as to avoid a situation where only one skill is spammed because it's just better than the other skills.

Domander

Francescolg wrote: »

Dear @Gern_Verkheart,
you seriously need to learn the game mechanics... nothing else! Channeled Spells tend to be way stronger than instant spells. As your Wrecking Blow can be interrupted, so can Puncturing Sweep be interrupted

• The ways to interrupt are:
• 1. Bash in melee (ANY weapon)
• 2. Crushing Shock (Destro)
• 3. Venom Arrow (Bow)
• 4. All skills (+relative passives) that say "interrupts casting targets" (there could also be CP-skills which favor some interrupt-mechanic (stun/disorient/knockdown/off-balance)

This is when skill comes into play! Casted spells, as Crystal Fragments or Aimed Shot, have 1,x casting time, so has Punturing Sweep: 1,x casting time. In this short time window you can:

1. a) Interrupt from distance
2. b) Get close to the target, while holding block, and bash it (both mouse buttons, first the right button, hold it - than the left button while holding the right one)
3. c) Use other form of CCs

There are many possible ways to counter a templar starting to 'puncture' you. I think the easiest would be, you hold block-so you don't get knocked back. This means he'll be "set off", this is when you have to make a heavy attack or a CC, to counter him.

I'm even wondering how 3 players can loose versus one templar. Templars are the weakest class against interrupts.
So: In PvP you have to interrupt templars all day long, no matter if they heal, beam or puncture, everything can be interrupted so easily.
BUT, to do so, you need to use spells/skills which can interrupt, every melee char knows this mechanic. Unfortunately, many PvP players run round with daggers/swords, the problem with being a caster and using melee weapons is that you MISS spells as crushing shock.
BUT the main problem is that players do not interrupt at all. I can see this in every f.. random group in a dungeon, when healer- and caster-NPCs are not interrupted at all. In PvE this might be ok, in PvP it is not.

No, the melee channel/casts can't be interrupted since 1.6

Draxys

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Everyone talks like there is nothing wrong here, but a templar is soloing 3 of us in Crackwood cave right now, and he is almost exclusively just spamming puncturing sweep, thatTemplar ultimate( I think it's called eclipse) and the shield from healing staff. That is it. And he is cleaning the floor with us. I know Im not very good at PvP, but one person shouldn't be able to solo 3 people over and over again when they are only using 3 abilities.

Statements like this is how we got such a *** patch this time around, seriously do something to learn the got-damn game

WRX

Draxys wrote: »

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

Everyone talks like there is nothing wrong here, but a templar is soloing 3 of us in Crackwood cave right now, and he is almost exclusively just spamming puncturing sweep, thatTemplar ultimate( I think it's called eclipse) and the shield from healing staff. That is it. And he is cleaning the floor with us. I know Im not very good at PvP, but one person shouldn't be able to solo 3 people over and over again when they are only using 3 abilities.

Statements like this is how we got such a *** patch this time around, seriously do something to learn the got-damn game

It's truly unbelievable.

These guys don't even know the skills they are using or his opponents are using.

Please just read.

Lettigall

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Lettigall wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

While I agree that there is some way to counter Puncturing Sweep (CC, walk through the attacker, ...), this ability is still OP. It's the only ability they use in the sewers against pack of mobs, and they really don't need to use any other ability. That's a really poor meta game.

Templars have only 3 dps skills in class tree and of course best of them will be used often. And what's so OP about this skill? That it can kill weak mobs and players who haven't learned to be mobile in fight? It's so OP that you even don't need to use any skills, spend no resources to counter it, just walk pass the templar.

This skill is same as it was in 1.6 only difference is that IC brought pve players to pvp zone.

So if I understand you well, people should only use their class skills to DPS ?
No weapon skills ?

The truth is that puncturing sweep is much better than any other ability to DPS and this is the reason why they spam it.

When the class ability is better then your equipped weapons abilities you should use it. If I understand you want that templar class abilities are weaker then weapon abilities?

No I want that skills are balanced, so as to avoid a situation where only one skill is spammed because it's just better than the other skills.

But this skill is already pretty balanced. It's channeled ability which does decent damage and during channel time locks player in position and makes vulnerable to CC abilities. it very well works with Burning light passive but another downside of this skill that last hit gives ~0,5s long CC effect to enemy and after that 5s CC immunity.

Good against trash mobs and unexperienced players. Shines when used in tight spaces, in open world not good choice against mobile players.

Similar skills are Cleave(2h, stam), Arrow spray(bow, stam,), Wall of elements(destro, magic). So choices of abilities for similar effect aren't not so big especially if you have magicka build.

MLRPZ

QQ