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i made a bosmer nb with 6.6k stam regen... can we have softcaps back now?

  • Rook_Master
    Rook_Master
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    @xylena I just want you to know that there are people smart enough on these boards to comprehend the main thrust of your argument.

    People just can't seem to see the forest for the trees. In this case, the viability of the build in question is irrelevant. Just the fact that 6k stam regen is achievable should scare you. Removing softcaps was a bad idea.
  • xylena
    xylena
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    @Rook_master appreciate the support!

    can't believe how many people missed that the screenshot was taken outside cyro in greenshade, or that i used mediocre gear, or that i'm not in fact a sorc player on a mission to nerf NBs...
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  • vortexman11
    vortexman11
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    Cinbri wrote: »
    Really don't know what happening on pts: Surprise Attack dealing damage higher than my critted Honor the Dead with full CP investment into 3 healing buffs. :no_mouth:

    Try Ritual of Rebirth, people have been hitting up to 45,000 self heals on PTS with it, I think it may be broken, I know its stronger than Breath of Life, but not that much stronger...
    Should try definetly, only Rebirth morph? Used it only once and noticed new visual that showing healing radius for this ability.

    I never got around to testing other morphs of it, that 45k was empowered by the way. But still, when only buffed with your regular templar passives, it can easily get you to full health
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  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    That would be 11550 stam regen as Emp. GG.

    But yeah Xylena, I agree that some of the stats achievable since the removal of softcaps are what causes the imbalances we are seeing since 1.6 which has led to 'band-aid' fixes such as streak nerf, dodge nerf, block nerf and now shield nerf.

    And as xylena already said like 5 times... this was just an example to demonstrate the imbalances since 1.6, not an actual real build. You could easily tweak this to have a sufficient regen / damage output which would be much higher than anything prior to 1.5, which should not be a thing in a game based around resource management.

    On live I've played a variety of builds ranging from min/maxed stam regen as shown here, to min/maxed weapon damage. It's rather silly some of the numbers you can achieve.

    That's now how the math works in the game at all. Percentages (including emp) are *additive* not multiplicative.

    Emp would likely be more like 9500 stam regen with that build.
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  • IxSTALKERxI
    IxSTALKERxI
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    That would be 11550 stam regen as Emp. GG.

    But yeah Xylena, I agree that some of the stats achievable since the removal of softcaps are what causes the imbalances we are seeing since 1.6 which has led to 'band-aid' fixes such as streak nerf, dodge nerf, block nerf and now shield nerf.

    And as xylena already said like 5 times... this was just an example to demonstrate the imbalances since 1.6, not an actual real build. You could easily tweak this to have a sufficient regen / damage output which would be much higher than anything prior to 1.5, which should not be a thing in a game based around resource management.

    On live I've played a variety of builds ranging from min/maxed stam regen as shown here, to min/maxed weapon damage. It's rather silly some of the numbers you can achieve.

    That's now how the math works in the game at all. Percentages (including emp) are *additive* not multiplicative.

    Emp would likely be more like 9500 stam regen with that build.

    Yeh wasn't sure if that included emp, I remember having some pretty high numbers.
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  • Waylander
    Waylander
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    Funny thread.

    I like the 'come duel me' posts the best. Obviously people who haven't faced you on your dk.

    I think the problem is that between itemisation, racial passives and the champion system, you can easily achieve builds with high enough sustain to be able to spam effective abilities almost infintely and they do not have to sacrifice enough spell or weapon power to be effective. To achieve 3k stam regen you do not need to gimp yourself in terms of weapon or spell power, particularly if you are a race that benefits from a racial regen passive of between 10-20%.

    The way a game with no enforced cooldown on skills can work to balance having no cooldowns is through resource management. We are not seeing that requirement for careful resource management in live, and it seems to me like the fixes in PTS do not address the root cause of the problem (being the very high regen values easily obtainable by most builds).

    Add high enough regen and you are able to spam the most effective ability you have until the cows come home.

    This in my opinion leads to homogenous playstyles and boring builds/rotations being the most effective.

    P.S. Come duel me with your 6.6k stam regen build Xylena!!!! I will rekt you!!!! (did I do it right?)
    Edited by Waylander on August 5, 2015 4:34AM
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  • xylena
    xylena
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    To achieve 3k stam regen you do not need to gimp yourself in terms of weapon or spell power, particularly if you are a race that benefits from a racial regen passive of between 10-20%

    @Waylander well written post... also funny how i don't remember anyone ever complaining about racial passives back when there were softcaps, now when new players pick the "wrong" race they end up at a significant disadvantage when they reach endgame pvp or competitive pve
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  • Xael
    Xael
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    xylena wrote: »
    To achieve 3k stam regen you do not need to gimp yourself in terms of weapon or spell power, particularly if you are a race that benefits from a racial regen passive of between 10-20%

    @Waylander well written post... also funny how i don't remember anyone ever complaining about racial passives back when there were softcaps, now when new players pick the "wrong" race they end up at a significant disadvantage when they reach endgame pvp or competitive pve

    This is false.
    When Kutsuu made his Nightblade everyone whined about not picking Imperial as their race. Others complained they did not have access to Imperial and were at a significant disadvantage. This was May/June '14. That's just one example of many.

    Fast forward to now, you have a Redguard Magicka Sorc (lol) having tons of success and making a very big name for himself. Strange... shouldn't he (by your reasoning) be struggling to be competitive? Strange, him being one of the worst races for a Magicka Sorc (compared to Altmer, Breton, or Dunmer) does not put him at a significant disadvantage.

    It's no different now than it was when there were softcaps. Hell with softcaps you could be a hybrid and absolutely destroy people. Saying there was no "1-2 shot" builds back then is either an egregious lie or just ignorance.

    Also... 6k Stamina Regen still makes you combat ineffective. You have no damage and you still can't roll spam. We have all said this and come to this understanding. Now you have people showing up saying "they get the point of your thread." In other words, no soft cap and the sky is the limit. I see what you are doing here.

    This is misleading. Yes you found a way to stack 6k Stamina Regen. No, you didn't find a way to do the same thing with Spell Damage or Weapon Damage or anything that's going to break PvP. No, you found a way to make a character have excess in something largely irrelevant, at least in it's implied form. Had you used something like Spell Damage or Weapon Damage or anything in the context of being able to break PvP it might be relevant.
    I got killed in pvp, nerf everything...
  • Xeniph
    Xeniph
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    Really don't know what happening on pts: Surprise Attack dealing damage higher than my critted Honor the Dead with full CP investment into 3 healing buffs. :no_mouth:

    It's called healing debuffs. Damn near everyone run disease on atleast one weapon. And then you have quite a few class skills and CP's that do/will stack with it, reducing your incoming healing by 60-80%.

    That's likely what you are experiencing.
    Edited by Xeniph on August 10, 2015 6:00PM
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  • Zsymon
    Zsymon
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    That screenshot only proves you made a completely nonviable build for PvP. You'll have stamina up the arse but you won't beat anyone and you will die real fast, and you still won't be able to spam dodge roll.

    I don't see how this calls for softcaps (something that is never going to happen anyway.)
    Edited by Zsymon on August 10, 2015 6:23PM
  • Zsymon
    Zsymon
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    For example with my Sorcerer I have 2900 magicka recovery, (I only have 100 CPs total), but that build is useless, my magicka is always at max, I can't spam any ability to make me go OOM, but my damage and survivability are zero.

    High recovery is not very powerful at all, there is no reason to cap it.
    Edited by Zsymon on August 10, 2015 6:38PM
  • Francescolg
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    Thanks for the nice thread TE.

    Let's think around the corner..!

    How about playing a stamina sorc as a bosmer? You practically get a free 40% stamina regen in 1.6, if I'm right!?

    What about DKs playing with high (lets say 5 pieces) stamina regen, while at the same time using the pvp skill which absorbs all projectiles + flappy wings?
  • Rune_Relic
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    xylena wrote: »
    wouldn't have any of these issues with infinite roll dodgers or streakers or ganker 1-shotters if we just raised the softcaps a little instead of removing them completely...

    Except if you had soft caps you would have maxed health, magicka & stamina regen all at once instead.
    Which was why they were removed.
    Regen needs major work agreed.
    How can anyone possibly argue.
    Caps only offer different bad points IMO.

    I would start by cutting all food and drink by 90%
    Edited by Rune_Relic on August 23, 2015 1:09PM
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  • Teiji
    Teiji
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    Thanks for the nice thread TE.

    Let's think around the corner..!

    How about playing a stamina sorc as a bosmer? You practically get a free 40% stamina regen in 1.6, if I'm right!?

    What about DKs playing with high (lets say 5 pieces) stamina regen, while at the same time using the pvp skill which absorbs all projectiles + flappy wings?

    Then you'll have one-hundred percent less weapon damage than you're supposed to. 1953 weapon damage, even if you have a million stam regen eventually your dodge roll is going to cost two million.

    You need a balance of stats to be effective in this game. Anyone who makes a huge effort to have 6k stam regen should have it, but know that their blades are not going to be sharp as almost everyone in PvP runs around with 5k weapon damage and 2k stam + mag regen with 400 CP points.

    You can have more weapon damage than two players running 6k stam recovery. No problem at all, let them dodge roll 5 times in a row, it wont help them L2P as they break out of CC every 5 sec whilst taking 8k light attacks.
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  • caperon
    caperon
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    Can't understand how people are not seeing the problem in this. Removal of softcaps + CP was a big mistake for the game balance and this is just an extreme and sad example. People complaining about softcapts seems unable to understand that removal of softcaps forced Zenimax to implement a hard cap to dmg, shield and healing in cyrodiil buf. Forced zenimax to nerf dodge roll, streak and block.

    So we need now a bunch fixes for something that wasn't broken until they changed it, especially when the racial balance was in s system with soft caps. Now everithyng stacks exponentially and its everithing a nonsese. You can see it very clearly that math is *** with the cyrodiil debuf on some skills that needed another fix. All of this is because they didn't stick to design decisions and change everything without thinking enought.

    Soft caps could have been tweaked, but they rushed to change it. Seems we have been playing an alpha for a year, not an suposedly AAA game.
    Once good, now bad.
  • Francescolg
    Francescolg
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    Teiji wrote: »
    You need a balance of stats to be effective in this game. Anyone who makes a huge effort to have 6k stam regen should have it, but know that their blades are not going to be sharp as almost everyone in PvP runs around with 5k weapon damage and 2k stam + mag regen with 400 CP points.

    Can you please post a screenshot with 5k weapon damage, when no "special dmg proc" (item set bonus proc/skills/group buff/group ultimate buff/etc.) is active? I do not believe that such a high number is obtainable. Second, I think that a less proc-dependent weapon char setup has it's advantages in PvP, relying less on random proc chances. (but max weapon damage is not the topic of the thread, so it should not be discussed).

    3k+ stamina regen are SUFFICIENT for my build ideas. The thread starter did the error to cause "too much attention" to the enormos number.

    What is interesting for me are viable builds that focus purely on the advantages of having easy 3000/4000+ stamina regen, while at the same time having decent weapon dmg/etc (all stats) numbers. You all focus too much on the MAX stamina regen number, I do not want to argue about the max. number but about "special builds" with high (but not maxed) stamina regeneration.
    Edited by Francescolg on August 23, 2015 1:38PM
  • Teiji
    Teiji
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    Teiji wrote: »
    You need a balance of stats to be effective in this game. Anyone who makes a huge effort to have 6k stam regen should have it, but know that their blades are not going to be sharp as almost everyone in PvP runs around with 5k weapon damage and 2k stam + mag regen with 400 CP points.

    Can you please post a screenshot with 5k weapon damage, when no "special dmg proc" (item set bonus proc/skills/group buff/group ultimate buff/etc.) is active? I do not believe that such a high number is obtainable.
    Second, I think that a less-proc dependend weapon damage setup has it's advantages.

    I am talking about 5k+ stamina regen for my ideas. The thread starter did the error to cause "too much attention" to the enorm number.
    What is interesting for me are viable builds that focus purely on the advantages of having easy 3000+ stamina regen, while at the same time having decent weapon dmg/etc (all stats) numbers. Which imo is imbalanced.

    You all focus too much on the MAX stamina regen, I do not want to argue about the max. number but about "special builds"

    I like the way you think. I can imagine 3k stam regen to be a solid number for a specific build where you're working hard to achieve an incredible weapon damage, stam regen and max stam ratio where you can effectively perform all stamina functions whilst being very hard to play against. Let me know what you find please!

    UkkmkVZ.png?1

    So far I've found that through using dual wield daggers [they are not precise on PTS] that you can get 5k weapon damage with no Overkill. Heavy head, heavy shoulders and weapons are Armor Master for increases armor + spell resist too.

    Also my level 40 Bosmer has more stam regen than my V14 DK and she only has to use white stam regen drinks. What's up wid that yo?

    caperon wrote: »
    Soft caps could have been tweaked, but they rushed to change it. Seems we have been playing an alpha for a year, not an suposedly AAA game.

    Agreed. Soft caps could've been adjusted slightly here and there as everything was in a much more controlled environment. As I said, my level 40 Bosmer has much more stam regen than my Dunmer DK it's odd. ZoS has only done huge changes ever since new management came into town.

    There could be very valid reasons for why they're doing so as they did state at Quakecon what they intend to do after Orsinium / Wrothgar.
    Edited by Teiji on August 23, 2015 1:44PM
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  • pjwb16_ESO
    pjwb16_ESO
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    Teiji wrote: »
    You need a balance of stats to be effective in this game. Anyone who makes a huge effort to have 6k stam regen should have it, but know that their blades are not going to be sharp as almost everyone in PvP runs around with 5k weapon damage and 2k stam + mag regen with 400 CP points.

    Can you please post a screenshot with 5k weapon damage, when no "special dmg proc" (item set bonus proc/skills/group buff/group ultimate buff/etc.) is active? I do not believe that such a high number is obtainable. Second, I think that a less proc-dependent weapon char setup has it's advantages in PvP, relying less on random proc chances. (but max weapon damage is not the topic of the thread, so it should not be discussed).

    3k+ stamina regen are SUFFICIENT for my build ideas. The thread starter did the error to cause "too much attention" to the enormos number.

    What is interesting for me are viable builds that focus purely on the advantages of having easy 3000/4000+ stamina regen, while at the same time having decent weapon dmg/etc (all stats) numbers. You all focus too much on the MAX stamina regen number, I do not want to argue about the max. number but about "special builds" with high (but not maxed) stamina regeneration.

    like:
    3,3k weapondamage
    3,8k reg
    25k stamina

    huehuehue
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  • RooBeeO
    RooBeeO
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    @xylena I just want you to know that there are people smart enough on these boards to comprehend the main thrust of your argument.

    People just can't seem to see the forest for the trees. In this case, the viability of the build in question is irrelevant. Just the fact that 6k stam regen is achievable should scare you. Removing softcaps was a bad idea.

    So true, however now this has set me on a path to achieve the best build for my playstyle. It's funny that there are so many people looking at the regen build and are too stupid to understand what is possible.

  • rfennell_ESO
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    The problem with begging for softcaps is that you might get them.

    Zos is a little overzealous when it's "nerf" time, if you didn't notice.
  • Francescolg
    Francescolg
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    pjwb16_ESO wrote: »
    like:
    3,3k weapondamage
    3,8k reg
    25k stamina
    Hi, how did you get to that stats?
  • contact.opiumb16_ESO
    If someone makes a build with 6k stam regen like OP just for the sake of doing it, it doesnt prove anything.
    Sure he made such build but by forcing it so much to get that stam regen, he lacks sufficent resources in other places, rendering build useless.

    Not to mention, capping anything is complete opposite of "play as you want" because when you hit a cap you are forced to start going into other direction and abandon what you planned to do.

    Its logical.

    I hope noone sane will support idea to make a step that will set back whole game, like what? 1 year to the past?

    Time to post this again. Originally posted on a CAP thread. This reflexion came from a discussion between me and a friend of mine, who is a senior game designer working for Ubisoft and before at Quantic Dream.

    "Basically, the must needed balanced between magicka and stamina is now here and was not in 1.5 and before BUT can we please watch at the 2 basic mecanics in any MMO.

    1. cooldown based game. This allow to balance skills easily. You just can't spam THE "one-shot oriented skill" and need to use a big variety of skills to go
    2. ressources management based game. A cap (soft and hard) is needed because if you can have almost "infinite" ressource, you just have to spam your "one-shot oriented skill" (RD, concealed weapon etc)

    With the 1.6+ meta you can have "infinite" ressources, so anyone just go for the biggest possible dps skill. It gives poor variety of builds and rotations.

    Another issue is that ressources give DPS. It should not. It should goes like this :
    . ressources give you the pool to spam your skills (wich should be soft caped)
    . regen give you the time between 2 completes empty pool (wich should be soft caped)
    . spell/weapon damage is for the dps increase, plus the pen (wich should be soft caped)
    . armor/spell resist is for damage mitigation (wich should be soft caped)
    . Crit gives % chances to do more dps (wich should be soft caped)

    CP buffs shall be soft caped too, lets say at +20% buff max per item.

    The cap problem with 1.5 system was that the caps where way too low, just raise them a bit so that hybrid and specialists builds can work together and can be as competitive.

    this system can give a lot more variety of builds because more or less, anyone can Play As You Want and be competitive. Then ZOS should just tweak numbers and based cost of each skill to balance the game.

    Example : lets say a Crystal fragment gives 1000 damage, and cost 100 magicka. If you have a bigger magicka pool + regen, you can spam it more. Another player who invest more in a hybrid build can deal the same amont of damage with Crystal fragment, but can't spam it a lot while he can use, let's say WB in is rotation with a good result too. Combinasion are almost endless and fair like this."

    So yeah, caps are needed.
  • Kupoking
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    Stabp it guys! I dont car if you have 9000 stam regen or 50k hp if you can dish out damage or take hits. It is balance in the way that you sacrfice everything to achieve this.
  • pjwb16_ESO
    pjwb16_ESO
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    pjwb16_ESO wrote: »
    like:
    3,3k weapondamage
    3,8k reg
    25k stamina
    Hi, how did you get to that stats?

    vet 14 gear combination 300 Cp and bosmer + some buffs (where i dont need anyone else for)
    Edited by pjwb16_ESO on August 31, 2015 11:22AM
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  • bigereard
    bigereard
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    Many skill is not scaling with resource

    let's say reflective scale, eclipse, immoveable, blur, etc

    or even party oriented skill like guard, purge, siege shield, rapid manuever, circle of protection, etc.

    I think if you want a build that support your team well (aside healing), resource build is quite powerful, since party oriented skill burn resource very fast.
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