ZOS: Paywall Argument, IC, and Three Banners War

TheBonesXXX · August 2015

ZOS,

If you are going to stand firm in your flip flopping and make a soft decision then reverse it later on, why not make the decision to compromise from the get go?

Paywall Argument

We have all read by now and if you haven't, take a tylenol before you do, the paywall argument. The argument that "PvE" content is locked behind the gates. The very idea of Darkness Falls which some the ZOS team brought with them from DAoC. It's not a unique idea, but it was an extremely fun one.

PvE'ers insist that open access is the only acceptable answer.
PvP'ers insist that the gates are the only acceptable answer.

So instead of flipping back and fourth on the issue allow me to present a few other ideas.

]Imperial City, PvP practicality, and Gear

It's been stated before that Imperial City is a PvP expansion, I will argue as an old school, bloodthirsty, PKer, there's really nothing special about killing mobs in a city with limited threat or repercussions. So my contention to you and every PvP lover here is to make IC exactly what you said it would be.. a PVP DLC.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have less NPC's and AIs that aren't very intelligent and have PvPers take part in the one DLC that many of us have been patiently waiting for over a year? Makes sense that I want to fight a thinking person, not AI. Wouldn't it make more sense to release Wrothgar and IC at the same time as SISTER DLC's in a BUNDLE to generate more revenue. (I'm not here to question your business methods, but some of the things you do are not very well thought out.) Keeping IC pure PvP, as it was supposed to be to me seems to make more sense then the not PvP that has been conjured up.

I'm not sorry to say it, IC really isn't a PvP DLC and my line of thinking says that you should get rid of the PvE crap and put objective PvP in IC. You have a golden opportunity to enrich the only zone many of us actually care about, Cyrodiil.

There's little sense and practicality in IC, because it's NOT real PvP and you are not demonstrating an adequate understanding of what objective based RvR is, even when you have a whole map that you could make absolutely amazing.

Here's only a very few of my thoughts on the matter:

The mobs need to be thinned and the XP needs increased on par with PvE, boss mobs in hovels/dungeons need to grant alliance point BOONS
Every dungeon, building, and mini-"quest" hub needs to be objectivized - to support large to small scale warfare
the 5 quest zones should have a separate perimeter that supports urban meets Fantasy style warfare - winners get separate rating and point boon
Sky Temple something or another should become the arena with the roof blown off to have more mini platforms that people can fall off that supports 1 v 1. Winner gets their alliance a point boon and a separate rating bracket
BOTH COMPLETE WITH KDR AND VICTIM/NEMESIS SHEETS
make Imperial City RvR closed quarters SLUGFEST, complete with traps, falling debris, explosions, and the necessity be organized, put the TV behind objects that require siege damage to blow up and loot - use what you have to ENRICH PVP, not PVE. For the first time in your games development ENFORCE GOOD STRATEGY, you can do it in the White-Gold tower and sewers, and everywhere else in Cyrodiil if you chose to.

Just giving examples on how to make IC a PvP DLC as promised, I don't really appreciate being lied to, PvE with PvP elements is not PvP. PvP with a strong chunk of PvE is not any semblance of knowing what you are developing, anyone who doesn't accept a high standard and high quality of PvP needs to speak up.

Since people want to complain about paywalls, why not just allow PvPers to buy reputation boons for Undaunted, the 2 piece sets, every PvE set in the game from our faction vendor and allow PvErs access to the sets that are unique to Cyrodiil outside of Cyrodiil. I'm not undercutting the efforts of the guys who already have their sets, I'm pointing out how bloody redundant it is that the most powerful gear in the game are PvE only and detract players from the fight. This generates equal access to the gear, PvPers can PvP for it, PvErs can PvE for it.

And if you feel like your efforts in the last year are going to be undermined by such a system, I don't care. Should have lobbied for such a thing in the first place.

Three Banners War

Not many people signed up to fight Molag Kena and his merry band of AI children in a Three Banners War, no one CARES about Empress-Regent whats her boobs. Just let us throw her off the top with Molag Kena, land on a spike, and let us throw each other off of same said tower on to spikes or the hard ground, either way a kersplat would be hilarious.

Three Banners War is about AD, DC, and EP duking it out, no one gives a damn about Daedra.

Let IC be as pure PvP as it can be. People are going to hate my last suggestion, but I'm not going to settle for anything less than PVP on a PVP based DLC. ZOS, delay IC again and make it PVP, there should be very to little semblance of PvE in our only PvP spot in the game, so make it good and not PvE and call it PvP.

Release IC and Wrothgar at the same time as independent or sister pack values for a reduced cost so you can generate revenue. Stop undermining the essence of PvP with PvE and give us what the players deserve and DONT put your damn story first for once.

Nix some of your ideas, *** off your investors, but do not rob the PvPers of PvP.

I'm not going to be told there's going to be a DLC available for purchase when it doesn't provide or live up to appropriate expectations of what PvP should be. I'm trying to stick up for you, my fellow PvPers, and make it equal for players who do not enjoy PvP too.

-Bones/Nix

Reply, comment. Demand excellence, demand PvP for a PVP DLC.

sadownik · August 2015

Great post, but too late im afraid.

Stikato · August 2015

What's funny, is the Great Promised PVP Expansion of 2014 2015 is going to actually kill PVP. And PVE is not really going to fare better.

Cyrodiil is gonna take a massive population hit. We will look at the fact that someone thought we needed 4 vet campaigns for the population as some sort of obsolete pipe dream. If it isn't already.

Everyone will flood IC. There is instant respawn right into the battle. Over and over and over and over and over and over...

Don't believe me? Log on to PTS. There is no one in Cyrodiil. IC is just a stupid continuous re spawn fight.

Meanwhile the people trying to PvE in this environment are going to be pissed. But hey they only have to be there if they want v15 mats and drops. I mean no one is going to want those right?

Xsorus · August 2015

There is an instant respawn battle because we are testing pvp, respawn fighting is awful for getting currency and will not be the way to go in final

Stikato · August 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

There is an instant respawn battle because we are testing pvp, respawn fighting is awful for getting currency and will not be the way to go in final

So they have set up pvp in a completely different way on PTS, so we can test it how it won't work in release?

Is there confirmation for this?

ADarklore · August 2015

This idea is about, oh, five years too late. The ship has already sailed, content is already developed, so you either accept it or move on. Sorry to say, that is the reality. We are nine days from IC launch on PC, there is no way, no how they are going to suddenly pull it back and totally revamp it for release in, oh, two years according to what the OP wants implemented or changed.

Elsonso · August 2015

Stikato wrote: »

What's funny, is the Great Promised PVP Expansion of 2014 2015 is going to actually kill PVP. And PVE is not really going to fare better.

Cyrodiil is gonna take a massive population hit. We will look at the fact that someone thought we needed 4 vet campaigns for the population as some sort of obsolete pipe dream. If it isn't already.

Everyone will flood IC. There is instant respawn right into the battle. Over and over and over and over and over and over...

Don't believe me? Log on to PTS. There is no one in Cyrodiil. IC is just a stupid continuous re spawn fight.

Meanwhile the people trying to PvE in this environment are going to be pissed. But hey they only have to be there if they want v15 mats and drops. I mean no one is going to want those right?

It is possible that they are now reconsidering this whole Cyrodiil / Alliance War part of the game. Outside of Cyrodiil, the whole War is pretty much just story line stuff. They are going to allow some cross Alliance grouping in the future. Maybe they are moving towards making Cyrodiil more of a PVE space with less emphasis on taking keeps and resources from players. Have daedra swarm out of the Imperial City and take keeps so that players of all three Alliances can retake them.

Robbmrp · August 2015

This is a great idea. I've sent ZOS multiple posts about how only releasing IC as a DLC with no real PVE content was a bad idea for revenue. By removing the daedra from within IC and adding in your suggestions, we could have some excellent PVP fights in a city that's CENTERED in a PVP Zone.

Give PVE'ers Wrothgar or Orsinium at the EXACT SAME TIME as IC. Sell them both as one DLC pack for 5000 Crowns or as stand alone DLC for 2500 each. This satisfies all parties playing this game. PVPer's get the content they were promised and PVE'ers get new content as well. These kinds of DLC packs are a win win for everyone as no one is left out with nothing new.

@ZOS, this is a really good idea......

TheBonesXXX · August 2015

ADarklore wrote: »

This idea is about, oh, five years too late. The ship has already sailed, content is already developed, so you either accept it or move on. Sorry to say, that is the reality. We are nine days from IC launch on PC, there is no way, no how they are going to suddenly pull it back and totally revamp it for release in, oh, two years according to what the OP wants implemented or changed.

So what you do is tell them not to add more content that is going to be undone or changed anyway. Why? Because if they release it in its current state its NOT going to draw revenue other than the purchase. People will wash their hands and walk away.

Elsonso · August 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

This idea is about, oh, five years too late. The ship has already sailed, content is already developed, so you either accept it or move on. Sorry to say, that is the reality. We are nine days from IC launch on PC, there is no way, no how they are going to suddenly pull it back and totally revamp it for release in, oh, two years according to what the OP wants implemented or changed.

So what you do is tell them not to add more content that is going to be undone or changed anyway. Why? Because if they release it in its current state its NOT going to draw revenue other than the purchase. People will wash their hands and walk away.

I do not think that will happen. It will pretty much be released and left to itself, success or failure. Whatever people like it will be in there, and there will always be someone in the Imperial City, even if the DLC is a failure. At best, they will periodically tweak various parameters, like Tel Var Stone drop rates and the keep requirements in some campaigns. Wheeler is pretty active in that respect for the PVP people, much more so than the other systems in the game.

As much as some people would like to see them change Imperial City, or Cyrodiil, I think that the brutal truth is that a lot of what ZOS pushes out is going to be set it and forget it. Aside from occasional tweaks and configuration changes, I doubt they have any plans to revisit these things in a timely manner. While they have (apparently) three teams rotating through new DLC content, I suspect that have no teams working on maintenance of existing systems and content. In 30 days, Imperial City will be "existing content" and after the initial bug fixes, ZOS will move onto other things.

TheBonesXXX · August 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

As much as some people would like to see them change Imperial City, or Cyrodiil, I think that the brutal truth is that a lot of what ZOS pushes out is going to be set it and forget it.

Perhaps, but people need to point out that IC isn't PvP content as promised.

byrom101b16_ESO · August 2015

I self-admitted 'old school' PK, PvP'er arguing for gated access to PvE content!?

Now there's an argument you don't see everyday... lmfao

TheBonesXXX · August 2015

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I self-admitted 'old school' PK, PvP'er arguing for gated access to PvE content!?

Now there's an argument you don't see everyday... lmfao

I can only assume that you're talking about my other comments on another thread, so allow me to clarify for you.

IC in is current state is not PvP. It's PvE with little reprisal or consequence and it has nothing to do with an enriched Cyrodiil.

IC should have removed most elements of PvE, to enrich PvP. Instead, it pushes most meaningful PvP out of the picture.

The element of gated access meant people where going to have to fight. It's the fight for the prize that matters. In its current state it's "PvE" content, I never said I liked PvE content, but it's what we have in IC's current incarnation.

I do not like PvE, but the game forces players like me to do it. IC forces something I already don't like, in a zone designed for PvP.

I am former military, I do not understand you about thriving in the fight if you have never done it. Gated access created the fight, it created the need to be organized.

Now it's just going to be a continuation of a zerg in a more concentrated spot.

Non gated access will backfire on everyone, but it should be an enriched PvP environment because it is isolated, its not OWPvP.

sagitter · August 2015

Stikato wrote: »

What's funny, is the Great Promised PVP Expansion of 2014 2015 is going to actually kill PVP. And PVE is not really going to fare better.

Cyrodiil is gonna take a massive population hit. We will look at the fact that someone thought we needed 4 vet campaigns for the population as some sort of obsolete pipe dream. If it isn't already.

Everyone will flood IC. There is instant respawn right into the battle. Over and over and over and over and over and over...

Don't believe me? Log on to PTS. There is no one in Cyrodiil. IC is just a stupid continuous re spawn fight.

Meanwhile the people trying to PvE in this environment are going to be pissed. But hey they only have to be there if they want v15 mats and drops. I mean no one is going to want those right?

Ye it's like having perma forward camp... WHAT THE HELL THEY REMOVED FORWARD CAMP AND NOW WE HAVE PERMA CAMPS WITH IC? How dumb is that , why listen damn whiners that have never played a serious rvr mmo like Daoc?

byrom101b16_ESO · August 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I self-admitted 'old school' PK, PvP'er arguing for gated access to PvE content!?

Now there's an argument you don't see everyday... lmfao

I can only assume that you're talking about my other comments on another thread, so allow me to clarify for you.

IC in is current state is not PvP. It's PvE with little reprisal or consequence and it has nothing to do with an enriched Cyrodiil.

IC should have removed most elements of PvE, to enrich PvP. Instead, it pushes most meaningful PvP out of the picture.

The element of gated access meant people where going to have to fight. It's the fight for the prize that matters. In its current state it's "PvE" content, I never said I liked PvE content, but it's what we have in IC's current incarnation.

I do not like PvE, but the game forces players like me to do it. IC forces something I already don't like, in a zone designed for PvP.

I am former military, I do not understand you about thriving in the fight if you have never done it. Gated access created the fight, it created the need to be organized.

Now it's just going to be a continuation of a zerg in a more concentrated spot.

Non gated access will backfire on everyone, but it should be an enriched PvP environment because it is isolated, its not OWPvP.

I am former army with a war pension, and don't appreciate you bringing that kind of point into the discussion in a trivial point scoring exercise.

Make all the other claims you want to - but leave your real world military experiences, real or imagined, out of it. ..

TheBonesXXX · August 2015

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I self-admitted 'old school' PK, PvP'er arguing for gated access to PvE content!?

Now there's an argument you don't see everyday... lmfao

I am former army with a war pension, and don't appreciate you bringing that kind of point into the discussion in a trivial point scoring exercise.

Make all the other claims you want to - but leave your real world military experiences, real or imagined, out of it. ..

Alright, lets skip past the sense of "heightened awareness", Cyrodiil is an isolated PvP experience that when PvP updates are made, it should be current with maintenance and enrichment.

Pressing a button to kill a mob with very little forethought is not PvP. Turning the Imperial City into a resource where we have to fight for it is.

byrom101b16_ESO · August 2015

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I self-admitted 'old school' PK, PvP'er arguing for gated access to PvE content!?

Now there's an argument you don't see everyday... lmfao

I am former army with a war pension, and don't appreciate you bringing that kind of point into the discussion in a trivial point scoring exercise.

Make all the other claims you want to - but leave your real world military experiences, real or imagined, out of it. ..

Alright, lets skip past the sense of "heightened awareness", Cyrodiil is an isolated PvP experience that when PvP updates are made, it should be current with maintenance and enrichment.

Pressing a button to kill a mob with very little forethought is not PvP. Turning the Imperial City into a resource where we have to fight for it is.

Actually, fighting in a tight FIBUA style environment (like Memorial District) is the big draw for me - and all you do is delay that experience having to fight over keeps that no-one is really interested in taking, except to get into IC, once the dlc come in.

Your last point comparing button pushing and gated access lost me. Those two things are unrelated, except to say that pressing buttons will happen whether it's in IC or outside it.

If this had been a free expansion with no PvE content in it, then fine - gate it all you want. But it isn't close to that, and die-hard PvP'ers have problems with respecting the right of other play-styles to have their cake and eat it too.

Besides, I am sure optional gated campaigns will soon come about, and then it's win all round...

themdogesbite · August 2015

You want the gear? The stones? You wont get it by PvPing in IC thats for sure since everyone above the sewers are fresh respawn kills and thus arent dropping any stones. If you want them in any efficent way you are kinda forced into going down the sewers and kill PvE mobs.

The real question to me is where's the feutures we PvPers asked for? Wheres our instanced battlegrounds? Arenas? Value for PvP currency? Instead we have 2 new pve dungeons, districts that are filled with mobs that interupt every fight and we also got our currency made useless. I also believe that if Cyrodiil's not to completely die out you need to control your home keeps in order to gain acess, that gives players a bigger reason then now to actually fight for the map. If you will leave it open then that PvP aspect of the game will probably die completely for a bit.

Can someone please enlighten me how this is supposed to be "the" PvP Patch that we all waited for so long? I dont think that PvPers will get anything in the "Orsinium" DLC compared to what PvE players get now.

nimander99 · August 2015

It may be that I imagined this back at the b2p announcement, but I remember the idea being floated that IC would be a free update... could be that I just read a regular persons post and not a ZOS_ post but I was holding that belief until they said it would be paid DLC...

If IC was a free update then it could have remained gated behind keep ownership.

Enodoc · August 2015

nimander99 wrote: »

It may be that I imagined this back at the b2p announcement, but I remember the idea being floated that IC would be a free update... could be that I just read a regular persons post and not a ZOS_ post but I was holding that belief until they said it would be paid DLC...

If IC was a free update then it could have remained gated behind keep ownership.

That was probably me

Until they announced it would be paid content, I was reminding everyone that no confirmation had been given, and at the same time pushing on all fronts for people to support the case of IC being a free update so that Keep Controlled Access could remain part of the system unhindered.

Taonnor · August 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

It may be that I imagined this back at the b2p announcement, but I remember the idea being floated that IC would be a free update... could be that I just read a regular persons post and not a ZOS_ post but I was holding that belief until they said it would be paid DLC...

If IC was a free update then it could have remained gated behind keep ownership.

That was probably me Until they announced it would be paid content, I was reminding everyone that no confirmation had been given, and at the same time pushing on all fronts for people to support the case of IC being a free update so that Keep Controlled Access could remain part of the system unhindered.

Seems logical. So they decided to get much money as they can from that content, instead of release well-thought content.

Justice31st · August 2015

...

TheBonesXXX · August 2015

Glad some agree that killing mobs isn't PvP

Sallington · August 2015

I couldn't agree more with every word in the OP.

omfgitsbatman · August 2015

Post is absolutely absurd. It basically reads like this:
Dear ZoS,
Please Scrap everything that you've been promising us for the last year. I know there are plenty of people that are looking forward to this patch, but it's not exactly what I want.
Since it isn't what I want, please don't release this content that you have been working on for quite a while. I know it's scheduled for live release in like a week, but please restart from scratch.

Sallington · August 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Post is absolutely absurd. It basically reads like this:
Dear ZoS,
Please Scrap everything that you've been promising us for the last year. I know there are plenty of people that are looking forward to this patch, but it's not exactly what I want.
Since it isn't what I want, please don't release this content that you have been working on for quite a while. I know it's scheduled for live release in like a week, but please restart from scratch.

I think the whole point of the OP is that we aren't getting what they were promising us for a year, which was a full PVP update.

Enodoc · August 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Please Scrap everything that you've been promising us for the last year.

They did that already. District control? Scrapped. Gated access? Scrapped. IC-specific buffs? Scrapped. 30+ repeatable PvE quests? Scrapped.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Please Scrap everything that you've been promising us for the last year.

They did that already. District control? Scrapped. Gated access? Scrapped. IC-specific buffs? Scrapped. 30+ repeatable PvE quests? Scrapped.

Yea, this is yet another sad thing about this DLC. The only PvP aspect about this place is that you can encounter players form enemy factions. That's it. There's no PvP-specific objectives, systems, or rewards other than being able to take other player's TV stones and the crappy Rewards for the Worth bags (ie that scrap of hope from yet another RNG grind to get some V16 versions of older sets). This makes the whole debate about IC not being PvE content really a joke, because the vast majority of IC is PvE content. There are in fact tons of new places to explore and tough mobs to fight. There's dozens of new, really strong bosses and difficult encounters in the districts and sewers. Has anyone even cleared the boss in the lowest sewer level yet? The most fun and challenging PvE in the game is in IC. I actually have to think and stay on my toes when fighting there, compared to the mindlessness of Vet dungeons, Craglorn, etc. All IC is, is a PvE zone shared between factions -- in other words, Cyrodiil but with no objectives other than mat and gear grinding.

EDIT: It has also been datamined that ZOS will be offering the IC dungeon a la carte in the Crown Store, so there's that too.

Contraptions · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SNIP

EDIT: It has also been datamined that ZOS will be offering the IC dungeon a la carte in the Crown Store, so there's that too.

Really? Interesting. Do you have a source for this? Cos the two dungeons are probably the only thing about this entire DLC that I actually care about.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

Contraptions wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

SNIP

EDIT: It has also been datamined that ZOS will be offering the IC dungeon a la carte in the Crown Store, so there's that too.

Really? Interesting. Do you have a source for this? Cos the two dungeons are probably the only thing about this entire DLC that I actually care about.

Yea. Here's the original Reddit thread, and here's the link to the Google Doc with the datamined info where it lists "IC Dungeon A" and "IC Dungeon B" and "IC Bundle". Of course, not all datamined info ever comes to fruition, but so far the datamined Crown Store stuff has been pretty accurate with what they end up releasing in the near future.

TheBonesXXX · August 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Post is absolutely absurd. It basically reads like this:
Dear ZoS,
Please Scrap everything that you've been promising us for the last year. I know there are plenty of people that are looking forward to this patch, but it's not exactly what I want.
Since it isn't what I want, please don't release this content that you have been working on for quite a while. I know it's scheduled for live release in like a week, but please restart from scratch.

Please go through those patch notes and read anything PvP related and compare it to all of the PvE stuff. Cause IC in its current incarnation has nothing to do with PvP other than being a big version of every other hovel in Cyrodiil, its bloody Cracked Wood Cave on steroids. PvP is going to be DEAD.