Tanking in 2.1 : it is possible, managable with explainations and proof.

Kupoking · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

sloppy_O_Shot wrote: »

I have another quick question. Are they going to add any damage for the sword and shield, or have they said anything about lowering the cost of current stamina abilities? IDK maybe I'm doing something wrong but as a tank I do almost no damage with my main weapons. in all honesty even my spells don't do much damage because most abilities are set to help my team not myself. With this change we will have to change out skills to try an compensate for the lack of Stamina. I can't test it for myself (console) so this is why I'm asking.

Right now, there isnt really a damage option while tanking unless you run old and easy content like old dungeons, you can sacrifice some defensive abilities for some offensive ones, but dont expect amazing numbers.

This is an example of my VDSA DPS. It's not super, but it is what one would expect from a tank. For reference the DPS deal 500-600k damage. The difference in what we are doing is that I deal bits of damage to many enemies and the DPS deal a lot of damage to one enemy. This is something that I worked really hard to achieve and am a bit proud of because VDSA is all about finding ways to speed up the fights.

It just so happens that I completed VDSA on the PTS and was the tank. As you say, the content was doable.

That being said, there were a couple of waves were I fully ran out of stamina, which is abnormal, and there was nothing we could really do about it. I also lost caltrops from my build and didn't feel comfortable using pierce armor on occasion. That is the cost of such a nerf, but isn't the only cost.

One of my friends in that run discussed how they where going to have to totally change their tanking build because, after testing, being a stamina based Tank DPS didn't seem viable to them any longer. This is the current state of tanking. We have to do more than just taunt and block. That is what is expected of tanks because groups want to 'put the pedal to the metal.' The nerf is inhibitory to tanks being more versatile.

There are very specific strategies that get used on the final boss and the best one yet involved me bashing the Champion Marcauld add so that the add is stunned when it tries to drop it's Circle of Protection Heal. We struggled here and tried a few different strategies.

First we used negate on the circle of protection. That was cool, but a bit awkward. Then we tried for me to bash as is normal. That didn't quite work and I think the stamina regeneration ticks would have made a difference. The last strategy we used involved using an actual ultimate on Marcauld so that we could burn him down faster. That is the strategy that ended up leading to our success. So as you see, not only does the nerf affect the tank, but it also drastically changes what the DPS and healer has to do. Tanking sustain is now, in part, a function of how long a fight lasts and the nerf reinforces burning through enemies rather than following their mechanics.

Maybe none of the is bad per se because 'adaption' and 'change' is a priori good. Despite what anyone says about being able to adapt though, many people don't want the nerf and it is hypocritical when we look at foundations of the developmental process; not liking to nerf, not liking heavy handed nerfs, not making changes that cause players to totally switch their builds, etc, etc.

Im impressed with the dps numbers you shown me.

I will go with the BUTS first.
-I would take a solid theorycrafter to come up with the right build and counters to come mechanics in there to achieve it, which you and your group did. I must add a certain level of in game skill also to execute it. Also note that I suspect you guys had around 300 cp doing this which is considered high compared to the majority.

I feel like for less experienced players it might he difficult to reach this in content like vdsa. Also not that for some players, vdsa isnt much of a challenge anymore. I was able to tank/heal it once back in march. Healers could also pull out some dps in there.

This is why im unsure it would be possible in current 2 new vet versions of the IC dungeons.

ALTHOUGH, seems like some encounters would welcome unconventional builds. We theorycrafted a grp setup with 1 off healer/dps. Im sure some kind of 2 offtank setup with a build similar to what you used could be nice. Im thi king about the inhibitor fight in white gold tower. The 2 off tank could trade focus and sustain the dot while be able to pop portals and dmg the boss.

That would open the horizons in my opinion. If you find players who are able to fill those hybrid roles.

usmcjdking · August 2015

I cannot reinforce enough that most tanks that are sub V-14 and don't have 200+ champ points can BARELY tank some of the at-level content as it is. Further gimping them will invalidate those individuals and will thin the herd of the tank role as more and more wash out during the leveling process.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, this change seems to be a rather kneejerk decision that didn't go through the typical testing phase/murderboard. Can you inform us about some other potential changes to shield & block that got passed over in favor of this change?

Kupoking · August 2015

Leonis wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Nightblade don't have class shield to hit like that Dragon or the Tank class with Templar right behind both my great times of a Templar tank die three times then a Dragon Knoght will not die as they are better at outlasting. So when ever I talk about tanks I default it to Dragon Knights. My main has limitless stamina and vigor my tank toon is a different story no go self heal do that a Nightblade without Vigor and 240 cp

Make a magicka based tank, maybe.
I don't know but "swallow soul" is not good ? sap essence ? soul shred and co ?
siphoning attacks with calltrop for stamina ?

You can try and find a way. There should be one.

ps : the DK class shield is garbage as a shield and don't last long when you tank, it's more a healing done bonus buff and a group shield.

First off, DKs and Templar habe very different tanking style.

DK
Stam sustain well gdb, e.e passive, ult use.
Better trash control with chains and talons

Templar
Better magika regen
Group support will heal/aura

But both has access to self heal and bubbles. Plus I think you all have preconceved thougg that igneous shield value is much lower than sun shield and morphs. Compare actual numbers on both shield along with duration and side effect. You will realize igneous shield is a much superior shield.

As of the NB, my first observation as of tanking with them is that
1-They need shadow barrier up most of the time so you reach and maintain 50% mitigation cap.
2-dodge % is important.
3-self heal abilities help but should not be relied on.
4-60% mitigation is enormous with their ult.

That being said, itemizing them should be a lot more different than other classes. I picture them using whitestrake or new imperium set to back the lack of bubbles, for example.

I might favor going for more total hp and having 16k stam and magika since they got a nice regen passive.

We will see.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

sloppy_O_Shot wrote: »

I have another quick question. Are they going to add any damage for the sword and shield, or have they said anything about lowering the cost of current stamina abilities? IDK maybe I'm doing something wrong but as a tank I do almost no damage with my main weapons. in all honesty even my spells don't do much damage because most abilities are set to help my team not myself. With this change we will have to change out skills to try an compensate for the lack of Stamina. I can't test it for myself (console) so this is why I'm asking.

Right now, there isnt really a damage option while tanking unless you run old and easy content like old dungeons, you can sacrifice some defensive abilities for some offensive ones, but dont expect amazing numbers.

This is an example of my VDSA DPS. It's not super, but it is what one would expect from a tank. For reference the DPS deal 500-600k damage. The difference in what we are doing is that I deal bits of damage to many enemies and the DPS deal a lot of damage to one enemy. This is something that I worked really hard to achieve and am a bit proud of because VDSA is all about finding ways to speed up the fights.

It just so happens that I completed VDSA on the PTS and was the tank. As you say, the content was doable.

That being said, there were a couple of waves were I fully ran out of stamina, which is abnormal, and there was nothing we could really do about it. I also lost caltrops from my build and didn't feel comfortable using pierce armor on occasion. That is the cost of such a nerf, but isn't the only cost.

One of my friends in that run discussed how they where going to have to totally change their tanking build because, after testing, being a stamina based Tank DPS didn't seem viable to them any longer. This is the current state of tanking. We have to do more than just taunt and block. That is what is expected of tanks because groups want to 'put the pedal to the metal.' The nerf is inhibitory to tanks being more versatile.

There are very specific strategies that get used on the final boss and the best one yet involved me bashing the Champion Marcauld add so that the add is stunned when it tries to drop it's Circle of Protection Heal. We struggled here and tried a few different strategies.

First we used negate on the circle of protection. That was cool, but a bit awkward. Then we tried for me to bash as is normal. That didn't quite work and I think the stamina regeneration ticks would have made a difference. The last strategy we used involved using an actual ultimate on Marcauld so that we could burn him down faster. That is the strategy that ended up leading to our success. So as you see, not only does the nerf affect the tank, but it also drastically changes what the DPS and healer has to do. Tanking sustain is now, in part, a function of how long a fight lasts and the nerf reinforces burning through enemies rather than following their mechanics.

Maybe none of the is bad per se because 'adaption' and 'change' is a priori good. Despite what anyone says about being able to adapt though, many people don't want the nerf and it is hypocritical when we look at foundations of the developmental process; not liking to nerf, not liking heavy handed nerfs, not making changes that cause players to totally switch their builds, etc, etc.

Im impressed with the dps numbers you shown me.

I will go with the BUTS first.
-I would take a solid theorycrafter to come up with the right build and counters to come mechanics in there to achieve it, which you and your group did. I must add a certain level of in game skill also to execute it. Also note that I suspect you guys had around 300 cp doing this which is considered high compared to the majority.

I feel like for less experienced players it might he difficult to reach this in content like vdsa. Also not that for some players, vdsa isnt much of a challenge anymore. I was able to tank/heal it once back in march. Healers could also pull out some dps in there.

This is why im unsure it would be possible in current 2 new vet versions of the IC dungeons.

ALTHOUGH, seems like some encounters would welcome unconventional builds. We theorycrafted a grp setup with 1 off healer/dps. Im sure some kind of 2 offtank setup with a build similar to what you used could be nice. Im thi king about the inhibitor fight in white gold tower. The 2 off tank could trade focus and sustain the dot while be able to pop portals and dmg the boss.

That would open the horizons in my opinion. If you find players who are able to fill those hybrid roles.

I've heard several people suggest having to use 2 templars with breath of life for the Planar Inhibitor. As far as tanking it goes, I've already given my opinion about it.

I don't mind switching gear and skills so much - I do that 2 times in AA runs with hot keys and enjoy showing off Reflective Scaled DPS against Valarial. Switching roles outright is much more frustrating though and I'm not sure if the Planar Inhibitor has a middle ground for my DK tank. A tank taunting could be useful if adds spawn, but I also feel that if adds do start to spawn that the fight might just be over. It's hard to say as I have only had 3, maybe 4, hours of time against the Planar Inhibitor.

Murmeltier · August 2015

Apokh wrote: »

Not knowing your numbers (for yourself) is another expression for " i dont mind" or " i better dont wanna know". I can understand that, but how do you ever know how you compete?
Answer: you dont

You can do dsa and most vet dungeons without a dedicated heal, as well as you can do them atm without dedicated tanks. So...lets all just dps...

Numbers are intersting to understand the Templar & Gamemechanics and every Player should test his own Ideas, not copy them from the I-Net. I do this over a Year, i know my Numbers through testing Sets & Skills in Combat Situations in Raids and VDSA, you can do this without Addons too. You need a good Intuition and Feeling for the Class, the Numbers come through the Skill & Experience about your Class, not through posting them. These Numbers & Experiences are for me, i use them to evolve my Gameplay & Equip.

I dont know you, but i know many People who mean they are good because they post some Numbers in the Chat. And, they arent. It is only a Ranksystem which People use to do so, act like good Players. Some are good and some only do a Rotation on a special Moment and post some Numbers, in a good Group.

The Tactic "More Dps = Fewer Heals needed" is well known and it works good in many Situations, but these Situations are saved Areas like VDSA & Trials with good Groups or Gold Dailys. It is effective but it is boring like Hell and not a Challenge, i am not impressed.

But how about a Random Raid in Hel Ra, where the typical Spelldamage Dps - Templars (Typical VDSA Builds)) are faster OOM then i can say "Out of the Red Circles damn DPS". That is a challenging Moment, maybe at the flying Atronarch, if the Templars with Spelldamage Equip struggles and try to get some Mana back and i have to heal for him too.

Numbers cant beat the "Love & Experience" for a Class, they came through this. At the End @apokh, i can understand that you have an own Line of Sight, i accept this. But i dont accept your Answer about Competition, i know that i am good and i dont have to prove this.

At the End, you dont understand what i explained and often misread my Answers, i am a little bit unmotivated to explain these again and again. Thank you for your Motivation but if i doesnt stop here it goes on and on. So if i dont answer, feel free to comment this but dont take this as an Offense.

Kupoking · August 2015

usmcjdking wrote: »

I cannot reinforce enough that most tanks that are sub V-14 and don't have 200+ champ points can BARELY tank some of the at-level content as it is. Further gimping them will invalidate those individuals and will thin the herd of the tank role as more and more wash out during the leveling process.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, this change seems to be a rather kneejerk decision that didn't go through the typical testing phase/murderboard. Can you inform us about some other potential changes to shield & block that got passed over in favor of this change?

When I had 90 -100cp I didnt tank the same thing as easily. Was able to complete vdsa though. Those with low CP should find content at their level.

You must be foolish to expect to clear the same content as me with low cp. Even more foolish to demand that zos nerf content for same reason.

usmcjdking · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I cannot reinforce enough that most tanks that are sub V-14 and don't have 200+ champ points can BARELY tank some of the at-level content as it is. Further gimping them will invalidate those individuals and will thin the herd of the tank role as more and more wash out during the leveling process.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, this change seems to be a rather kneejerk decision that didn't go through the typical testing phase/murderboard. Can you inform us about some other potential changes to shield & block that got passed over in favor of this change?

When I had 90 -100cp I didnt tank the same thing as easily. Was able to complete vdsa though. Those with low CP should find content at their level.

You must be foolish to expect to clear the same content as me with low cp. Even more foolish to demand that zos nerf content for same reason.

Crack pipe my man. Put it down and soothe the blind rage.

I didn't say I expected to clear VDSA as a brand new fresh V1 tank with 0 Champ Points. I said AT LEVEL content. Like a V5 tank tanking V5 Veteran Banished Cells? Yeah, that won't happen. Praxin? FUHGETABOUTIT.

Tanking will be an afterthought. With the growing Champ Points, the soon-to-be meta will be to just build a tanky DPSer who slots inner fire and to just heal through the damage.

Kupoking · August 2015

usmcjdking wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I cannot reinforce enough that most tanks that are sub V-14 and don't have 200+ champ points can BARELY tank some of the at-level content as it is. Further gimping them will invalidate those individuals and will thin the herd of the tank role as more and more wash out during the leveling process.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, this change seems to be a rather kneejerk decision that didn't go through the typical testing phase/murderboard. Can you inform us about some other potential changes to shield & block that got passed over in favor of this change?

When I had 90 -100cp I didnt tank the same thing as easily. Was able to complete vdsa though. Those with low CP should find content at their level.

You must be foolish to expect to clear the same content as me with low cp. Even more foolish to demand that zos nerf content for same reason.

Crack pipe my man. Put it down and soothe the blind rage.

I didn't say I expected to clear VDSA as a brand new fresh V1 tank with 0 Champ Points. I said AT LEVEL content. Like a V5 tank tanking V5 Veteran Banished Cells? Yeah, that won't happen. Praxin? FUHGETABOUTIT.

Tanking will be an afterthought. With the growing Champ Points, the soon-to-be meta will be to just build a tanky DPSer who slots inner fire and to just heal through the damage.

You should put down your crack pipe then as all this content in vet mode have been nerfed and dumhed down thanks to whiners like you, making daily pledge of an extreme boredom.

Kupoking · August 2015

I asked my two brother who started playing when 2.0 came in. One is a heal the other hadls a dps and a tank. They ran the dungeons together while leveling. They both claimed to have no issue run those dungeons from 0-100 cp.

Edit: they only said it was slower and died more often. But it was managable.

SeptimusDova · August 2015

So when shards are cut off at the spigot what happens to tanky tanks? Serious question and yes think about it. If your Shart chucker goes down, logs rage quits, or any other thing what are you going to do? Me thinks now with the changes that tanks need temps sort of a dynamic duo. Lose one you lose the other no tank dead temp dead temp dead tank. Dead tanks really smell bad like rotten feet and khajiit dookies all in one left in the bottom of a deployment connex for a year. Yes that bad.

Kupoking · August 2015

SeptimusDova wrote: »

So when shards are cut off at the spigot what happens to tanky tanks? Serious question and yes think about it. If your Shart chucker goes down, logs rage quits, or any other thing what are you going to do? Me thinks now with the changes that tanks need temps sort of a dynamic duo. Lose one you lose the other no tank dead temp dead temp dead tank. Dead tanks really smell bad like rotten feet and khajiit dookies all in one left in the bottom of a deployment connex for a year. Yes that bad.

Its been discussed already. You dont need to get spears as soon as they are off cd. Dont make me repeat myself and go read previous posts.

SeptimusDova · August 2015

buzzz wrong answer homey I was silenced by zos just got back on at 1545-1600 you didnt read what I wrote or give it any serious thought.

I said what if you got no shards. I mean at All as in no temps to give them to you..

Rune_Relic · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

sloppy_O_Shot wrote: »

I have another quick question. Are they going to add any damage for the sword and shield, or have they said anything about lowering the cost of current stamina abilities? IDK maybe I'm doing something wrong but as a tank I do almost no damage with my main weapons. in all honesty even my spells don't do much damage because most abilities are set to help my team not myself. With this change we will have to change out skills to try an compensate for the lack of Stamina. I can't test it for myself (console) so this is why I'm asking.

Right now, there isnt really a damage option while tanking unless you run old and easy content like old dungeons, you can sacrifice some defensive abilities for some offensive ones, but dont expect amazing numbers.

This is an example of my VDSA DPS. It's not super, but it is what one would expect from a tank. For reference the DPS deal 500-600k damage. The difference in what we are doing is that I deal bits of damage to many enemies and the DPS deal a lot of damage to one enemy. This is something that I worked really hard to achieve and am a bit proud of because VDSA is all about finding ways to speed up the fights.

It just so happens that I completed VDSA on the PTS and was the tank. As you say, the content was doable.

That being said, there were a couple of waves were I fully ran out of stamina, which is abnormal, and there was nothing we could really do about it. I also lost caltrops from my build and didn't feel comfortable using pierce armor on occasion. That is the cost of such a nerf, but isn't the only cost.

One of my friends in that run discussed how they where going to have to totally change their tanking build because, after testing, being a stamina based Tank DPS didn't seem viable to them any longer. This is the current state of tanking. We have to do more than just taunt and block. That is what is expected of tanks because groups want to 'put the pedal to the metal.' The nerf is inhibitory to tanks being more versatile.

There are very specific strategies that get used on the final boss and the best one yet involved me bashing the Champion Marcauld add so that the add is stunned when it tries to drop it's Circle of Protection Heal. We struggled here and tried a few different strategies.

First we used negate on the circle of protection. That was cool, but a bit awkward. Then we tried for me to bash as is normal. That didn't quite work and I think the stamina regeneration ticks would have made a difference. The last strategy we used involved using an actual ultimate on Marcauld so that we could burn him down faster. That is the strategy that ended up leading to our success. So as you see, not only does the nerf affect the tank, but it also drastically changes what the DPS and healer has to do. Tanking sustain is now, in part, a function of how long a fight lasts and the nerf reinforces burning through enemies rather than following their mechanics.

Maybe none of the is bad per se because 'adaption' and 'change' is a priori good. Despite what anyone says about being able to adapt though, many people don't want the nerf and it is hypocritical when we look at foundations of the developmental process; not liking to nerf, not liking heavy handed nerfs, not making changes that cause players to totally switch their builds, etc, etc.

Im impressed with the dps numbers you shown me.

I will go with the BUTS first.
-I would take a solid theorycrafter to come up with the right build and counters to come mechanics in there to achieve it, which you and your group did. I must add a certain level of in game skill also to execute it. Also note that I suspect you guys had around 300 cp doing this which is considered high compared to the majority.

I feel like for less experienced players it might he difficult to reach this in content like vdsa. Also not that for some players, vdsa isnt much of a challenge anymore. I was able to tank/heal it once back in march. Healers could also pull out some dps in there.

This is why im unsure it would be possible in current 2 new vet versions of the IC dungeons.

ALTHOUGH, seems like some encounters would welcome unconventional builds. We theorycrafted a grp setup with 1 off healer/dps. Im sure some kind of 2 offtank setup with a build similar to what you used could be nice. Im thi king about the inhibitor fight in white gold tower. The 2 off tank could trade focus and sustain the dot while be able to pop portals and dmg the boss.

That would open the horizons in my opinion. If you find players who are able to fill those hybrid roles.

I've heard several people suggest having to use 2 templars with breath of life for the Planar Inhibitor. As far as tanking it goes, I've already given my opinion about it.

I don't mind switching gear and skills so much - I do that 2 times in AA runs with hot keys and enjoy showing off Reflective Scaled DPS against Valarial. Switching roles outright is much more frustrating though and I'm not sure if the Planar Inhibitor has a middle ground for my DK tank. A tank taunting could be useful if adds spawn, but I also feel that if adds do start to spawn that the fight might just be over. It's hard to say as I have only had 3, maybe 4, hours of time against the Planar Inhibitor.

Wait.... how can console do that ?

Rune_Relic · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I cannot reinforce enough that most tanks that are sub V-14 and don't have 200+ champ points can BARELY tank some of the at-level content as it is. Further gimping them will invalidate those individuals and will thin the herd of the tank role as more and more wash out during the leveling process.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, this change seems to be a rather kneejerk decision that didn't go through the typical testing phase/murderboard. Can you inform us about some other potential changes to shield & block that got passed over in favor of this change?

When I had 90 -100cp I didnt tank the same thing as easily. Was able to complete vdsa though. Those with low CP should find content at their level.

You must be foolish to expect to clear the same content as me with low cp. Even more foolish to demand that zos nerf content for same reason.

But wait... everyone is saying in the other thread that CP are trivial and its a L2P issue.

Apokh · August 2015

Murmeltier wrote: »

You need a good Intuition and Feeling for the Class,

Sure..and 1+1 is 3

I saw a couple of times how large the gap between "i feel i do damage" and "oh..wtf? the AddOn must be wrong" is... maybe you think you know you do damage, maybe you think you know you heal- may also be you are good at it, idk...but as im working in QA i can tell you that "feelings" and "statistic" are never the same...in worst case there are worlds between. And i know that ppl are often afraid of the truth and better don´t want hard numbers they cannot avoid- "I better don´t wanna know, so nobody can blame ME". So I understand your pov.

Keep doing as you like, but honestly..for the sake of all my groupmates I don´t want ppl in my trial team with that kind of egomanic attitude. But this is not the topic herein...

SeptimusDova wrote: »

tanks need temps sort of a dynamic duo.

This is simply WRONG. There are MANY different ways to regain STAMINA. Perhaps take the time you waste writing threads in studying a skill calculator or play TESO and take a look yourself. If you did´t (want to) recognize: there are already 4 pages written, before you posted.

Kupoking · August 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I cannot reinforce enough that most tanks that are sub V-14 and don't have 200+ champ points can BARELY tank some of the at-level content as it is. Further gimping them will invalidate those individuals and will thin the herd of the tank role as more and more wash out during the leveling process.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom, this change seems to be a rather kneejerk decision that didn't go through the typical testing phase/murderboard. Can you inform us about some other potential changes to shield & block that got passed over in favor of this change?

When I had 90 -100cp I didnt tank the same thing as easily. Was able to complete vdsa though. Those with low CP should find content at their level.

You must be foolish to expect to clear the same content as me with low cp. Even more foolish to demand that zos nerf content for same reason.

But wait... everyone is saying in the other thread that CP are trivial and its a L2P issue.

For sure cp makes it easier. But I believe you dont need a lot pf them to complete all the current content.

Vet white gold tower or imperial prisons however. ..

Kupoking · August 2015

SeptimusDova wrote: »

buzzz wrong answer homey I was silenced by zos just got back on at 1545-1600 you didnt read what I wrote or give it any serious thought.

I said what if you got no shards. I mean at All as in no temps to give them to you..

I think you understand only what you want to understand in that matter. So no you did not read what I posted as I already gave other ways to regen stam while blocking. E.G proc, repntance, earthen earth passive. There are others but I wont spoon feed anyone here on how to build themselves.

The other thing you seem to not understand is that you should NOT be blocking all the time like before. Therefore my 1st reason to believe you did not understand my point at all.

I think you should get rid of that buzzer, it diverts your attention from important info you read.

vladimilianoub17_ESO1 · August 2015

I thank you for what you tried to do with this post,but hmmm......I just saw awful tanking performance.Sure the boss looks hard,but still you where taking so much damage,most of the time your resources were very low specially magika.Also do the change also means ill have to use the rose set?You see i dont mind that much releasing blocking and stuff,I already do it a lot with my dk tank(ingenious shield to save me while i drop block and do a heavy attack,gaining stam from ingenious and heavy attack) what its going to bother me with the change is if i have to change my awesome tank build(build i have done myself,never read a build for dk tank) and rotation just so i can be effective with the build.I dont want to change the two 5 pieces of my build that i have been using,and for the looks of it,look that i may have to change the build I love so much.Thats my big issue the tank role may become stream lined.Use this build with this sets or you will sux.And forcing me to drastically change my build because and unecesary change its going to drastically drive me away from the game.

Kupoking · August 2015

Just re done white gold tower veteran mode boss 1 - 2 with a NB tank.

I will try to post a video soon but all I have to say is that NB tanks rock this patch.

Was running 5 pc imperium, 2pc lord warden, 3 jewel endurance and 2 pc + hp set.

Made sure not to pick up shards. Had no E.G. No black rose.

More info soon.

SeptimusDova · August 2015

homey my question related nothing for builds. I am not looking for build info I am not looking for "schooling" I was asking a question about one thing and one thing only and all you had to do is get off of your IRL underachieving high horse and answer it.

And it looked like you finally answered it with your NB video.

and apokh bla bla bla bla

mattlarsonmdl_ESO · August 2015

My biggest issue with the nerf is that it really (I think. Only limited time tanking on PTS)forces DK tanks to focus all their abilities/gear/resources to not running out of stamina...
My point is that it IS DOABLE, but at what cost? If you entire build isn't maxed on stamina upkeep somehow, you will probably run into trouble..
blackrose, magma armor (10 second not blocking), def. stance, stacking the *** out of proper CP's related, combined with pots, GDB and shards will get you by. Assuming you dps isn't extremely slow..

The easiest way to fix this which everyone seems to realize is make different blocking mechanics for PVE and PVP. why is this so difficult?????

Kupoking · August 2015

Now I dont know about how everyone's gonna see this, but I think that NB might climb up into the tanking rank list.

Personally for me its pretty huge since I missed something in patch 2.1 that will make NB Crazy sustainable tanks. Now I must say I will main my NB as my tank class now.

If I compare it with DK and Templar, i'd say hes somewhere between the level of those two right now. Not yet at the DKs level yet since most ppl plays their tank on this class and they are still ''designed'' to outlast and take beatings.

Overall stats:
35+ k HP
+- 17k Stam and Magika.

Block cost redux glyphs.

5 pc imperium, 2pc lord warden, 3 jewel endurance and 2 pc + hp crafted set.

25k Spell resist 20k armor unbuffed. (30k - 25k buffed. 37k Spellresist with Lord Warden proc (overcapped)

CP:
Red: Mostly block cost redux (55 pts) rest in resists.
Green: 15% magika regen, 10% Stam regen on heavy attacks, rest between lower costs of magika/stam and Roll/Breakfree.
Blue: Split Healing effectiveness and Spell Damage.

Video here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqrVi7wfhBQ

Explaination:

First off the CONS of the NB:
-Shadowbarrier : You major armor/spell resist lasts only about 11 sec. I consider using immovable instead but its a huge toll on your stam pool. At least I make it proc off Refreshing Path which help a lil with healing/damage.

-No blocking passive. Could be an issue if low CP or if you want to run something else than block cost on jewelry.

-No spammable DMG shield. Must rely on armor sets. Prefer Whitestrake over imperium since its crafted and its not random proc like Imperium; it procs when its needed when low hp. Has a very low CD.

Now PROS:
This ability makes NB tank OP (ok maybe not, but they are the real deal now): SIPHONING ATTACKS
-For 15 seconds, Restores 972 Stamina/magika every basic attack.
-10% Chance to restore an additional 1944 Stamina/Magika on non-basic attacks.

Of what I've seen during the dungeon (didnt test it out so this isnt 100% accurate).
-Light attack always restore almost 1k stam/mag
-Swallow Soul has 10% chance to proc an additional 1944 Stamina/Magika
-Heavy Attacks, should proc the 072 stam/mag recovery and have the 10% chance to proc the 2k.
Anyways, it still does regen a lot of stam.

Now you can just drop block to smack you enemy 1 or 2 times real quick to regen about 900-1800 stam. Beats any regen per seconds if you ask me.

Now imagine weaving this with Swallow soul. You also have a 10% chance to proc the almost 2k stam/magika regen.

Tested this mechanic in there, I forced myself to never take a single spear. I did not run Engine Guardian. I did not run Black Rose. My stam generation was amazing. My magika generation was good enough to let me spam swallow you most of the time.

Now with other PROS.

New 15% HP, Stamina and Magika Recovery instead of only 30% Stam recovery.
-Stam recovery isnt that important on tanks anymore as it will be at zero most of the time.
-Magika Recovery is HUGE. (I've put 50 CP in this).

Bolstering Darkness
-The 60% mitigation is unique and rteally shows

Swallow Soul
-Gives you extra heal received which is really nice.
-Super low cost spammable attack (1220 in PTS with the tank)
-Small and useful heal
-PASSIVES: +2 Ultimate Generation, +3% healing generated (not received) while slotted, +8% max magika while slotted.
-Spammable while blocking.

Mass Hysteria
-Good CC on trash and SOME bosses encounters (like the one in this video).

SIDE NOTE:
Tried Evil Hunter. was not impressed by it. Wanted to make it proc my normal attacks/Swallow soul. It did proc and help a lil but seems the cost of 2900 did put a toll on my stam.

Kupoking · August 2015

Note: after testing, I was wrong, Swallow Soul does now not prov the 2k in siphon attack

seems to proc off pierce armor... if it does its definetely not 2k stam

my guess is that it procs off heavy attacks

Ixtyr · August 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

I dont get it its also possible to take the cap off of a beer with a lighter but Id sure as hell rather use a bottle opener 3/4 of that isnt even tanking you were wretched at aggro and you were relying on a shield and heals which wont work in trials. Im sure eventually we'll all figure out another way to get around this nerf in the long run but why the hell should we when it doesnt need to be and shouldnt be implemented.
It is abundantly apparent that the developers just sat around a table scratching their heads like "how should we fix this hot mess we've created?" and one was like " I know lets just screw everybody, that will fix the problem. Derp." Block casting isnt a problem it has been an unintended consequence of game mechanics since beta along with animation cancelling which zenimax has publicly announced was unintended but good for the game. Same damn thing, and just because somebody or something is blocking doesnt mean they are unkillable it means that the player that moans and groans about having a tough time with them is just too moronic to change their tactics and learn how to play their class. A generic fix for a complicated problem, the Zenimax way.

PBpsy wrote: »

Tanking in 2.1 : it is possible, managable and supremely boring. Worthlessly agroing and kiting in circles terrified can be had in many new cool POS FTP games out there. Why should ESO be different!?

You guys sound like you did not test it out on the pts. Why bother complaining here about it.

All I read here is only ass-umptions

Well, it goes the other way as well.

@Ixtyr wrote that they were having fun adjusting to the nerf in veteran dungeons, but, on stream, said how they were dying, as the tank, in wayrest sewers of all places. He also wrote about how tanks aren't going to be able to just hold block any more. Not only should he know better than repeating that wrong-headed platitude, but on his stream @deltia discussed how just holding block was going to be more than possible after the update. What is the actual worst are the PVP DPS players, who have hardly a clue about the intricacies or esoteric parts of tanking and nor do they care because they see the change as good for some easily refuted reason.

What I mean to show by the above examples is that the people who are for the nerf haven't really been that reputable in their discussions.

I certainly don't want "is wayrest sewers still doable" to be the goal to balance tanking around and I certainly don't want people who make money from this game or PVP players telling me how things should be. It is also strange that some people think the nerf is fine because the play style it is meant to stop is still doable (ironic belief) while other people think the nerf is fine because it will make tanks release their block even though releasing blocking and then reblocking doesn't really work to preserve stamina that well due to how the stamina regeneration ticks work (not knowledgeable belief).

From that perspective, the people who want the nerf are really a confused bunch. Even worse is that the developers seem to share some of the logic of those players and it is fatal that such logic goes against development goals.

- Nerf
- Heavy handed nerf
- Sweeping change that invalidates some playstyles
- Makes being just as effective in PVE and PVP tougher for tanks
- Doesn't embrace players doing what they want despite design intent

All of those things have been against the developers vision for the game, but apparently their brand new vision of tanking is more important than not breaking those other long time foundation stones of their development.

Super delayed response here - apologies. It's been a hella long week.

To clarify - when I stated that I couldn't just hold block anymore in the PTS, I was mostly talking about my specific build (very similar to both of my tanking builds I run with my NB on live right now). Deltia clarified that by mentioning that you can actually still permablock - you just have to build more for it, and it's not something that literally anyone can do anymore.

The problem in PvP is that EVERYONE holds block - if you don't, you're doing it wrong. You can't do that anymore, because it crushes your resource management. That's a good thing.

The way you can tank now is DIFFERENT - either you run a different build to try to permablock (which, btw, is still something that's nigh on impossible without having at least one Templar in the group funneling you resources back), or you begin to work more on timing your block vs. unblocks. Figuring out when you can afford to unblock for a couple seconds to get more regen is a big deal.

Finally - when I was in Veteran Wayrest Sewers, the only place I really struggled at first was on large packs of trash mobs - not bosses. Resource management seems a lot easier when you have anywhere from 1-3 enemies to deal with, not 10-15 on mega-pulls. Part of that had to do with me still playing around with the changes to Siphoning Attacks (again, I tank on a NB, not a DK or Templar) - and still more of it had to do with the fact that I basically kept my main PvE Tanking build from live almost exactly the same. I had a good balance of Magicka and Stamina, my Health was only around 27-28k with food, and virtually every skill I used was the same as what I'm used to using. Had I put more into Stamina and less in Magicka, swapped out some enchants, and/or (perhaps most notably) had a Templar running in the group with us (we didn't) - I probably would've been beyond fine. We wiped a couple times - twice, to be exact, and that was fairly early on (we had two players die to mechanics on one of the later bosses but still managed to finish it. Dumdum DPS derpitude, honestly).

It's not THAT drastic of a change in PvE in my experience. Where it really makes the difference is in PvP. Players aren't just holding block nonstop - especially the obnoxiously-hard-to-kill tank builds (you know, the people who can't do crap for damage nor kill anybody but just stand there and force 11 people to smack them silly) or Stamina DPS builds. You CAN still hold block if you want to build for it, but now it's actually a conscious choice that you need to make that DOES have legitimate sacrifices involved (either you lose damage or you're forced to run in a larger group that has Templars feeding you resources nonstop). That's where it's a good thing.

---

The point is that the design has changed, and it is a bit of an adjustment. If you try to run into Veteran Dungeons next patch without making a single change to your build or style of play, you will feel the difference. It shouldn't be crippling to most players - not at all. But when you actually do adapt to it and relearn some mechanics, it does get more manageable, and in my opinion, more fun.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Now I dont know about how everyone's gonna see this, but I think that NB might climb up into the tanking rank list.

Personally for me its pretty huge since I missed something in patch 2.1 that will make NB Crazy sustainable tanks. Now I must say I will main my NB as my tank class now.

If I compare it with DK and Templar, i'd say hes somewhere between the level of those two right now. Not yet at the DKs level yet since most ppl plays their tank on this class and they are still ''designed'' to outlast and take beatings.

Overall stats:
35+ k HP
+- 17k Stam and Magika.

Block cost redux glyphs.

5 pc imperium, 2pc lord warden, 3 jewel endurance and 2 pc + hp crafted set.

25k Spell resist 20k armor unbuffed. (30k - 25k buffed. 37k Spellresist with Lord Warden proc (overcapped)

CP:
Red: Mostly block cost redux (55 pts) rest in resists.
Green: 15% magika regen, 10% Stam regen on heavy attacks, rest between lower costs of magika/stam and Roll/Breakfree.
Blue: Split Healing effectiveness and Spell Damage.

Video here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqrVi7wfhBQ

Explaination:

First off the CONS of the NB:
-Shadowbarrier : You major armor/spell resist lasts only about 11 sec. I consider using immovable instead but its a huge toll on your stam pool. At least I make it proc off Refreshing Path which help a lil with healing/damage.

-No blocking passive. Could be an issue if low CP or if you want to run something else than block cost on jewelry.

-No spammable DMG shield. Must rely on armor sets. Prefer Whitestrake over imperium since its crafted and its not random proc like Imperium; it procs when its needed when low hp. Has a very low CD.

Now PROS:
This ability makes NB tank OP (ok maybe not, but they are the real deal now): SIPHONING ATTACKS
-For 15 seconds, Restores 972 Stamina/magika every basic attack.
-10% Chance to restore an additional 1944 Stamina/Magika on non-basic attacks.

Of what I've seen during the dungeon (didnt test it out so this isnt 100% accurate).
-Light attack always restore almost 1k stam/mag
-Swallow Soul has 10% chance to proc an additional 1944 Stamina/Magika
-Heavy Attacks, should proc the 072 stam/mag recovery and have the 10% chance to proc the 2k.
Anyways, it still does regen a lot of stam.

Now you can just drop block to smack you enemy 1 or 2 times real quick to regen about 900-1800 stam. Beats any regen per seconds if you ask me.

Now imagine weaving this with Swallow soul. You also have a 10% chance to proc the almost 2k stam/magika regen.

Tested this mechanic in there, I forced myself to never take a single spear. I did not run Engine Guardian. I did not run Black Rose. My stam generation was amazing. My magika generation was good enough to let me spam swallow you most of the time.

Now with other PROS.

New 15% HP, Stamina and Magika Recovery instead of only 30% Stam recovery.
-Stam recovery isnt that important on tanks anymore as it will be at zero most of the time.
-Magika Recovery is HUGE. (I've put 50 CP in this).

Bolstering Darkness
-The 60% mitigation is unique and rteally shows

Swallow Soul
-Gives you extra heal received which is really nice.
-Super low cost spammable attack (1220 in PTS with the tank)
-Small and useful heal
-PASSIVES: +2 Ultimate Generation, +3% healing generated (not received) while slotted, +8% max magika while slotted.
-Spammable while blocking.

Mass Hysteria
-Good CC on trash and SOME bosses encounters (like the one in this video).

SIDE NOTE:
Tried Evil Hunter. was not impressed by it. Wanted to make it proc my normal attacks/Swallow soul. It did proc and help a lil but seems the cost of 2900 did put a toll on my stam.

Thanks for the testing. What you've identified though is what has been great about NB tanks all along (especially since update 1.6). Siphoning Attacks is useful, but definitely quite nerfed in 2.1. With the stamina management being the #1 priority of tanks now, it makes all the more sense to go more heavily into Magicka for NBs tanks and other tanks generally. This would definitely be the best way to maximize DPS as well without compromising blocking and taunting capability. Also, the extra mitigation from Bolstering Darkness is likely overkill, and Veil of Blades would remain the best option for both mitigation and additional DPS (killing things is the best way to stop damage after all).

Personofsecrets · August 2015

Ixtyr wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

I dont get it its also possible to take the cap off of a beer with a lighter but Id sure as hell rather use a bottle opener 3/4 of that isnt even tanking you were wretched at aggro and you were relying on a shield and heals which wont work in trials. Im sure eventually we'll all figure out another way to get around this nerf in the long run but why the hell should we when it doesnt need to be and shouldnt be implemented.
It is abundantly apparent that the developers just sat around a table scratching their heads like "how should we fix this hot mess we've created?" and one was like " I know lets just screw everybody, that will fix the problem. Derp." Block casting isnt a problem it has been an unintended consequence of game mechanics since beta along with animation cancelling which zenimax has publicly announced was unintended but good for the game. Same damn thing, and just because somebody or something is blocking doesnt mean they are unkillable it means that the player that moans and groans about having a tough time with them is just too moronic to change their tactics and learn how to play their class. A generic fix for a complicated problem, the Zenimax way.

PBpsy wrote: »

Tanking in 2.1 : it is possible, managable and supremely boring. Worthlessly agroing and kiting in circles terrified can be had in many new cool POS FTP games out there. Why should ESO be different!?

You guys sound like you did not test it out on the pts. Why bother complaining here about it.

All I read here is only ass-umptions

Well, it goes the other way as well.

@Ixtyr wrote that they were having fun adjusting to the nerf in veteran dungeons, but, on stream, said how they were dying, as the tank, in wayrest sewers of all places. He also wrote about how tanks aren't going to be able to just hold block any more. Not only should he know better than repeating that wrong-headed platitude, but on his stream @deltia discussed how just holding block was going to be more than possible after the update. What is the actual worst are the PVP DPS players, who have hardly a clue about the intricacies or esoteric parts of tanking and nor do they care because they see the change as good for some easily refuted reason.

What I mean to show by the above examples is that the people who are for the nerf haven't really been that reputable in their discussions.

I certainly don't want "is wayrest sewers still doable" to be the goal to balance tanking around and I certainly don't want people who make money from this game or PVP players telling me how things should be. It is also strange that some people think the nerf is fine because the play style it is meant to stop is still doable (ironic belief) while other people think the nerf is fine because it will make tanks release their block even though releasing blocking and then reblocking doesn't really work to preserve stamina that well due to how the stamina regeneration ticks work (not knowledgeable belief).

From that perspective, the people who want the nerf are really a confused bunch. Even worse is that the developers seem to share some of the logic of those players and it is fatal that such logic goes against development goals.

- Nerf
- Heavy handed nerf
- Sweeping change that invalidates some playstyles
- Makes being just as effective in PVE and PVP tougher for tanks
- Doesn't embrace players doing what they want despite design intent

All of those things have been against the developers vision for the game, but apparently their brand new vision of tanking is more important than not breaking those other long time foundation stones of their development.

Super delayed response here - apologies. It's been a hella long week.

To clarify - when I stated that I couldn't just hold block anymore in the PTS, I was mostly talking about my specific build (very similar to both of my tanking builds I run with my NB on live right now). Deltia clarified that by mentioning that you can actually still permablock - you just have to build more for it, and it's not something that literally anyone can do anymore.

The problem in PvP is that EVERYONE holds block - if you don't, you're doing it wrong. You can't do that anymore, because it crushes your resource management. That's a good thing.

The way you can tank now is DIFFERENT - either you run a different build to try to permablock (which, btw, is still something that's nigh on impossible without having at least one Templar in the group funneling you resources back), or you begin to work more on timing your block vs. unblocks. Figuring out when you can afford to unblock for a couple seconds to get more regen is a big deal.

Finally - when I was in Veteran Wayrest Sewers, the only place I really struggled at first was on large packs of trash mobs - not bosses. Resource management seems a lot easier when you have anywhere from 1-3 enemies to deal with, not 10-15 on mega-pulls. Part of that had to do with me still playing around with the changes to Siphoning Attacks (again, I tank on a NB, not a DK or Templar) - and still more of it had to do with the fact that I basically kept my main PvE Tanking build from live almost exactly the same. I had a good balance of Magicka and Stamina, my Health was only around 27-28k with food, and virtually every skill I used was the same as what I'm used to using. Had I put more into Stamina and less in Magicka, swapped out some enchants, and/or (perhaps most notably) had a Templar running in the group with us (we didn't) - I probably would've been beyond fine. We wiped a couple times - twice, to be exact, and that was fairly early on (we had two players die to mechanics on one of the later bosses but still managed to finish it. Dumdum DPS derpitude, honestly).

It's not THAT drastic of a change in PvE in my experience. Where it really makes the difference is in PvP. Players aren't just holding block nonstop - especially the obnoxiously-hard-to-kill tank builds (you know, the people who can't do crap for damage nor kill anybody but just stand there and force 11 people to smack them silly) or Stamina DPS builds. You CAN still hold block if you want to build for it, but now it's actually a conscious choice that you need to make that DOES have legitimate sacrifices involved (either you lose damage or you're forced to run in a larger group that has Templars feeding you resources nonstop). That's where it's a good thing.

---

The point is that the design has changed, and it is a bit of an adjustment. If you try to run into Veteran Dungeons next patch without making a single change to your build or style of play, you will feel the difference. It shouldn't be crippling to most players - not at all. But when you actually do adapt to it and relearn some mechanics, it does get more manageable, and in my opinion, more fun.

A few of the things you write still seem somewhat contradictory. I have a few questions, but understand if you are to busy to respond to them in depth or even respond at all.

A. Are people able to permablock or not in the future? If they are able to, then what has to be nerfed next? Have we not started sliding down a slippery slope that will demand more nerfs, for all players and roles, in the future?

B. How are people who currently perma blocking able to do so without building for it?

C. How do players that currently perma block not already faced with the tremendous trade offs that tanking and perma blocking strategy takes; trade off such as less damage, disproportionate champion point burden, disproportionate attribute point burden, diminished returns on damage mitigation, diminished returns on block cost reduction?

D. How does making perma blocking a disincentive, through the stamina regeneration nerf, address the reason that not holding block in PVP was "doing it wrong?" Would not the battle spirit damage debuff alone have a similar effect of reducing the player incentives for blocking in PVP? Wasn't '1-shotting' the real problem and not players holding block?

E. How does tanking become more fun if tanks are shoehorned into mostly managing their stamina? Many people have come out to say that they do not like the new feel of tanking. Even stamina DPS players have come to voice concerns about how the nerf affects them in a not so nice way.

F. Is it not problematic for a nerf to be brought about for the fun and interactivity of players, but at first met with harsh words that tanking is currently fun and interactive, and now met with even harsher words that tanking is less fun and less interactive on the PTS?

G. Deltia said that tanking has gotten easier with champion points, but hasn't the game gotten easier for all roles and don't all players deserve to get stronger by earning champion points. Isn't the real 'fun' issue in PVE caused by us playing the same outleveled and stale content where the best strategies are to stack and burn?

G. What do you think about the change (nerf?) to the Black Rose set?

H. Are yourself and fellow streamers responsible, in part, for the design of the stamina regeneration nerf?

Thank you for considering my questions.

Zsymon · August 2015

I'm sorry but that video only proves our points.

To fix this tanking disaster, they're going to have to remove Templar Shards and replace it with something that does not restore stamina, and greatly increase the amount of stamina a sword & board heavy attack returns, as well as change all bosses around to provide opportunities to use heavy attacks.

Otherwise the only healers that will be accepted, even by non-elitist groups, are Templars.. this can't be the intention, I hope not anyway, especially considering they went through some lengths improving the healing capacities of all other classes.

Auvngale · August 2015

I wish Repentance was a Restoration Staff ability. That way any healer in the group could help tanks and dps regain stamina.

Personofsecrets · August 2015

@Auvngale , I was thinking about permablocking with the masters restoration staff

Iduyenn · August 2015

Great thread here, but as always, there isn`t much substance to real tactics/best in slot etc.
I would love to read some more theory crafting here.

or just ignore my long, stupid post

1. What is the role of a Tank. Do we even neeed a tank? All the time?:

It seems there are some different opinions here. Most of you want at least 2 things of tanks:
- Holding aggro (at least of big hitters)
- Do 10k+ dps (Singletarget)

In this case we arent talking about Tanks, but hybrid Tank-DPS. 1 Dude has to fill out two or three roles (supporting).
I personaly dont like this. But hey... if this is the definition...

- Even if you hold all the aggro, if you don`t do more than 5-10k dps, you are a bad tank.
- If you are to squishy, but do 10k dps, you are a bad tank too.
- If you loose the aggro, but you do 10k dps, you are a very bad Tank

Wouldn`t you agree, that a good average tank should do the following:
- Aggro (Yay... no more overtaunting in IC).
- Stay alive, even when your healer is on the ground.
- Strategic combat lead; Positioning, correct movement ...
- Crowd control (Slow things down, silence, interrupt, chain, pull together, LoS...
- Support: Barrier, O-***-heals, Warhorn (Dmg buffs), Dmg reduction (Dragonclaw- morph).... Setprocs (Ebon Armor etc.) and major fracture on all targets.
- [insert more *** here]

=> So no creep rapes your group and all your pretty glasscannons can burst their ass off. Aaaand if you then have enough capacity left, you can do more than your average 2-4 k dps.

I think that would be an awsome role, and tbh in random groups you need to be this "god", because you will have tanky dps and dpsy healers. Fights will be longer (30 000 000 life? Holy!)
But yeah... there are bosses/instances, wich clearly dont need any tanks... you will have to have at least 2 speccs here. (unfair again).

I would love to find here an intersubjective but exact baseline definition: "What do tanks have to do...exactly...".

Now to the important stuff:

2. Tank strategies for PVE (PVP) Imperial City (2.1) based on role [insert definition here] and different classes

Here some rather crude strategies i heared:

- You want to hit Armor and spellresistance cap all the time ?!?
- You want to maximize Block-cost-reduction
- "What ? You dont have Engine Guardian? What kind of tank are you exactly?"
- Elemental defender
- What set to swap in for more dmg?
- As a Vampire you could improve your ultimate generation and magicka regeneration (+ You leecher!)
- As a Werewolf tank you will need: Tormentor set (Yeha.. just kidding

) (Actually... worth a thought...)

A: Go for 30k life and at least 25k+ Stamina

or

B: Go for 40/50k+ life and block even less. Regain ressources with leeching etc. (+ Vamp)

I couldnt connect to PTS very often, so i couldnt test anything. I would love to hear some theories and tactics specific to certain classes:

DK TAnks: (A > B ?)
- Fast ultimate regeneration + Battleroar

NB Tanks: (A and B works?)
- Siphoning Strikes (Changed in 2.1!) + 40k/50k+ health + Entropy ?

Sorc Tanks: (A and B?)
- Empowered Ward (Conjured Ward morph): Reduced the cost of this ability by 8.5%. This ability also no longer increases the damage done by your summoned pets, and will instead grant Minor Mending, which increases healing done while the ward is active.
- Dark Deal (Dark Exchange morph): Increased the amount of stamina restored by this ability by 50%.
Dark Exchange:
This ability now has a cast time; you can move at normal speed while casting.

Templar Tanks: (B> A?)
- Why need a shield, when you have a SHIELD?

Is there an option C?

Sets:

- Die footsoldier die?
- Ebon armor: Nice, but crappy traits)
- Hist bark: Yeah...
- Black Rose: (NERFED!) Good, but good enough?
- Phoenix Set: Be squishy and do dmg... i cant die... very often
- Armor Master: Need this, to be a true Tank ? (Option

- Twice Born Star: Yay! Mundus stones are stronger in 2.1
- Lord Warden two piece set vs. engine guardian. OR: 1 Piece Lord Warden + 1 Piece Molag Kena? Or..
- Brands of imperium.

Oh wait... and what rings/nekless?

How are you going to Tank In 2.1 (Imperial City)?

Race/Class: I have all Races on v14 imperial and high elf, although i like my dk (because of chains). Without the chains, i would prefer my templar.

Armory: I love twice born Star, but i will go with Armor Master. I am not sure about footsoldier or trinket alternatives. (And world peace... eh i mean hist bark)

How do you see your role: Be an indistructable God + be flexible... do dmg eventually

Tactic: I dont have a clue yet... perhaps... as i always did? Until now, i simply swapped my gear to my different tanks. That worked fine for me, but now, i think i have to go seperate ways, with my different classes.

I will not permablock...

Vids (not mine...):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slo2FSB1yrY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K5YFXpyxWw

NEED more Ideas, Theories