Tanking in 2.1 : it is possible, managable with explainations and proof.

Vaelen

The math for Templars in PvE is simple now:
Heals + Shards = Invited
No Heals or Shards = Kicked
Heals - Shards = Kicked

Templars will now be shafted into a supportbot class for PvE, that only exists to heal and throw shards down.

Personofsecrets

@Iduyenn , Thank you for going into depth. That was a really nice post. I think a tank primer could have been really useful for the discussion that we have had this past month.

The only thing that I would add for PVP in 1.6(2.0), but probably not for PVP in the future, is that tanks are around to wear the enemy down. Maybe some of us can still have this effect in 2.1. I'm not sure as I haven't PVP on PTS enough.

Trayyacakes

@Iduyenn I don't consider a tank doing 10k dps to be a hybrid. That is less than half of the dps pure dps roles can put out. What is the problem?

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

amasuriel wrote: »

I think the telling point to me, is how people who are defending the change are focused on whether its technically possible.

Was it more fun tanking with no stamina regen or less?

That is the most important question. If its hard but fun or easy and fun, then great. If its hard but boring, or easy but boring, then the change will add confusion and learning curve for no purpose.

Seems less fun to me, since the focus now (for non-trivial fights) is on stamina management, not battlefield control or adding DPS or Healing while maintaining enough mitigation to tank.

i agree, i see that >theortically< tanking is more specialized but still doable. as someone who has tanked for the last 14 years of playing MMOs i would replace "fun" with "more/less frustrating". tanks/healers tend to play the leadership role, they don't really have much options. they have to think differently than DPS. i believe i can fully adapt to the change, but that is just more frustration than its worth. this wouldn't be the first time i have had to "adapt" my character, but i think this may be the more extreme. as previously stated, good tanks have NEVER just stood and ate ***- they position mobs, focus the group on proper targets, interrupt spells, etc. this is certainly not exclusive to any one brand of MMO.

for fun i have a tank armor set (primary role) and 2 forms of DPS armor sets for caster and melee DPS. when i solo, i go from my tank set, to my melee dps set, to my caster set, as each breaks. with this change, im starting to move from tank>caster>melee, due to caster being most neglected for obvious reasons and most likely post-change. i just have my doubts on if ill be able to continue the tank role, without having to relevel and retrain using abilities i don't have time invested in, to put my self in a group as a "tank". perhaps i had bad skill choices, but as i have stated, i have already had to adapt a few times. i wouldn't be surprised if i have already leveled certain abilities, because i used them before. i have just lost track.

Sensesfail13

Possible? Manageable? Is this REALLY what we want from an archetype class???

I cant believe we're still beating this topic into the ground. People are stupid, there is nothing wrong with block casting or tank types now and this nerf is literally the dumbest nerf I have ever seen. And that is saying alot seeing as I made it through patch 1.6 and after.

olemanwinter

"Possible" and "Manageable".....with a set that has been nerfed and no longer works that way.

Anyone who has ever been a part of a group mixed with Aussies and NA players and experienced the delays KNOWS that attempting to time your blocks for the big hits, etc is just nonsense.

This blocking nerf is going to drive players from the game...in droves!

Kupoking

I just posted a video of me ta king harder content not using shards, old black rose, engine guardian and you are all still bitching?

Really I dont know what to say more now. Im on the brink of calling people idiots.

Sensesfail13

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

I just posted a video of me ta king harder content not using shards, old black rose, engine guardian and you are all still bitching?

Really I dont know what to say more now. Im on the brink of calling people idiots.

Define *taking harder content*... because I saw a load of bad tanking and no utility.... more of a hindrance than a help. That isnt taking on new/harder content and anybody that attempts to defend it, well, lets say Im not on the verge as you are.

If anything that video points to why this change should not happen but thank you for the time and effort you put into showing us how bad tanking can be in the upcoming update.

Iduyenn

Hello

@ll who say to have seen bad tanking (i.e not enough dmg etc).

I am still waiting on videos and guides of "good" tanks. What do do, and what not to do...
Lets not forget, that for the bigger part of the playerbase the next few weeks will be progress again.
Farmstatus is another story... a more offensive one.

Most tank guides include ONLY defensive skills:
For example DK Tank builds:

- Chains
- Pierce Armor
- Choking Talons
- Defensive Stance
- Dragonblood
- Warhorn
- Hardened Armor
- Inner Fire
- Razor Caltrops
- Heroic Slash
- Igneous Shield
- Magmashell

Most guides want you to wear: Footsoldier and Histbark. Period. They say nothing about "And oh yeh... your alternate bars and gears look like this...".

And with this setup, you will constantly do over 10k dps? Single target? (We are not talking about trash bosses, where you simply drop your standard and say: "oops".
We are talking about hitters, where you do heavy attacks and other stuff in between your blockings. (Or blockcasting).

So are you talking about execute abbilities? In this case, you have to be careful, because while using execute like radiant glory (as a templar) you dont block at all. Sure... you can interrupt your castings... Tbh i am not even sure if this the numbers have something to say, if your dps is based on the last 20% of the fight.
So are you talking about execute dmg?

Either, there are no indeapth guides and definitions about tanks, or it is aconspiracy! :P

So here comes the quite obvious question:

BOSS X

A. What gear sets do you use exactly in wich situations: (For example: Hist Bark, Footsoldier + Engine Guradian in defensive fights.... In offensive fights... What traits? You will most likely wear reinforced and nirnhoned heavy armor too... Dreugh King slayer, Morag Tong).

Dont make me change my gear every 5 minutes... lets just distinguish between offensive and defensive fights/groups.

B. What skills do you use to do 10k+ dps exactly. Heroic Slash + Caltrops ? No way, you will have to set all your dots and have a decent amount of Spelldmg/Weapondmg.

C. Resources; Armor, Spellresistance, Regenerations etc.
D. X Weapondamage Y Spelldamage

When i ask this question... i dont get any good answers... sometimes even "Its a secret".

To the real topic: It seems, the only difference seems to be; Bigger ressource bar, smaller regenerations (stamina). Oh wait... i do this already on live...

Looking forward to see some new guides and videos.

PS: I am a bit Advocatus Diaboli, so take my postings with a lot of sulfur

Kupoking

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

I just posted a video of me ta king harder content not using shards, old black rose, engine guardian and you are all still bitching?

Really I dont know what to say more now. Im on the brink of calling people idiots.

Define *taking harder content*... because I saw a load of bad tanking and no utility.... more of a hindrance than a help. That isnt taking on new/harder content and anybody that attempts to defend it, well, lets say Im not on the verge as you are.

If anything that video points to why this change should not happen but thank you for the time and effort you put into showing us how bad tanking can be in the upcoming update.

I wont argue with you. You minding is tainted by misconception and you show too much bad faith.

If you really watched the videos, you wouldnt say that, ESPECIALLY if you tried those dungeons.

Besides after all the content on this post if you cant understand those facts, then you lack on the intellectual capacities to understand my further explainations. Therefore I wont waste a single letter to do so. But I will waste some to tell you how stupid you are to make those comments since you want to comment my gameplay this way. All I must say is that you show no proof that you are any good so I'll assume (like most ppl reading your post telling me in private) that you are a bad player who tried to overcompensate by diminishing good players.

P.S : this post isnt about tanking with 9k DPS or tanking and main healing or what the *** you want to prove. Its about the ability of tanks to adjust to the change to stam regen. If you want to discuss something else here and look like a smartass, well you completely missed the point.

In simpler words for dum dums in here like you: This is for tank who need solutions to manage stam with new update 7 tanking.

Kupoking

Iduyenn wrote: »

Hello

@ll who say to have seen bad tanking (i.e not enough dmg etc).

I am still waiting on videos and guides of "good" tanks. What do do, and what not to do...
Lets not forget, that for the bigger part of the playerbase the next few weeks will be progress again.
Farmstatus is another story... a more offensive one.

Most tank guides include ONLY defensive skills:
For example DK Tank builds:

- Chains
- Pierce Armor
- Choking Talons
- Defensive Stance
- Dragonblood
- Warhorn
- Hardened Armor
- Inner Fire
- Razor Caltrops
- Heroic Slash
- Igneous Shield
- Magmashell

Most guides want you to wear: Footsoldier and Histbark. Period. They say nothing about "And oh yeh... your alternate bars and gears look like this...".

And with this setup, you will constantly do over 10k dps? Single target? (We are not talking about trash bosses, where you simply drop your standard and say: "oops".
We are talking about hitters, where you do heavy attacks and other stuff in between your blockings. (Or blockcasting).

So are you talking about execute abbilities? In this case, you have to be careful, because while using execute like radiant glory (as a templar) you dont block at all. Sure... you can interrupt your castings... Tbh i am not even sure if this the numbers have something to say, if your dps is based on the last 20% of the fight.
So are you talking about execute dmg?

Either, there are no indeapth guides and definitions about tanks, or it is aconspiracy! :P

So here comes the quite obvious question:

BOSS X

A. What gear sets do you use exactly in wich situations: (For example: Hist Bark, Footsoldier + Engine Guradian in defensive fights.... In offensive fights... What traits? You will most likely wear reinforced and nirnhoned heavy armor too... Dreugh King slayer, Morag Tong).

Dont make me change my gear every 5 minutes... lets just distinguish between offensive and defensive fights/groups.

B. What skills do you use to do 10k+ dps exactly. Heroic Slash + Caltrops ? No way, you will have to set all your dots and have a decent amount of Spelldmg/Weapondmg.

C. Resources; Armor, Spellresistance, Regenerations etc.
D. X Weapondamage Y Spelldamage

When i ask this question... i dont get any good answers... sometimes even "Its a secret".

To the real topic: It seems, the only difference seems to be; Bigger ressource bar, smaller regenerations (stamina). Oh wait... i do this already on live...

Looking forward to see some new guides and videos.

PS: I am a bit Advocatus Diaboli, so take my postings with a lot of sulfur

Np with having people player devil's advocatus as long as its made in a comprehensive manner.

A- As of gear, I wouldn't think you would need to change to for fights to fights. At least not more often as before.

Unless you want to switch gearto deal more damage et have more sustain depending on the fights.

Although, I suggest you bring some stuff in case you need them depending on the situation:

Engine Guardian: Could be useful to bring a pair of these just in case. I see a lot of tank on PTS using these. Personally I like the Lord Warden but I would carry it in some harder and longer fights like the Inhibitor fight in vet WGT.

Hist bark: still a solid option next patch for a more defensive tank. Nothing more to add, its pretty much live last patch.

More offensive fights: To go all out offensive tank you need offensive gear. You will most likely change all your gear to get into that.

I wont tell you exactly what to use because its not my style to tell someone: use this build and youll rock ***.

But personally, I would use sets that gives me some sort of sustain in my magika. I always prefer sustain>raw dmg in case *** hits the fan.
On live I use 5x Magnus (reinfoced on chest/legs/boots/shield) 5x Warlocks (small pieces like gloves belt + 3 jewels with block cost redux x2 and 1x spell power) 2x Valkyn Skoria (Heavy because I use sweeps on my templar got crappy trait though) when I go agressive.
Of course it would differ If I wanted to dpo the same on my NB tank. My DK would be pretty similar as I would stack a whole bunch of fire dots with the Whip morph that adds damage to you other DK fire attacks.

I know a build which uses 5x elf bane Heavy armor + 4x storm knight (neck+ shield+2 armor pieces) for some DK.
For templar, 5x elf bane 5x soulshine 2x torug is also available. You can have insane hight spell power. But you sacrifice your trait slot most of the time. Sometimes you also sacrifice your monster Head/Shoulder slots. In other terms, fights better not be too long or bosses hit you too hard.

B. In terms of skills, I understand some DKs use whip and their DK dots to achieve this. But note that to get those numbers in involves a lot of CP. Nhew tanks that think of going this far in terms of dps without 25% dmg bonus and ressource sustain on their toon.

On my templar tank I can achieve 10k+ dps on some boss fights with my build listed below. That being said, it happens when I dont have to block often as sweeps is a channel ability. Pretty much using Structured entropy and spamming P. Sweep/radiant opression. As of caltrops it give good damage if you are stam based and usually there is a stam dps who'd rather use it...

As of ults I like using meteor/dawnbraker of smiting for dmg.

BUT again note that I have 360+ CP on live with 90 pts in Thaumaturge (23% spell dmg) and 30 in elfborn (10% crit dmg). So I mean, I can slap my chest as much as I want, but numbers do the job here, therefore anyone with the right sets+CP can achieve this.

C. I'm not sure of understand. You want to know which values on each stats to aim for?

I understand its hard to gice a clear answer on that. I'll give you a vague answer too so sorry

In terms of armor(refered to for physical resist here)/spell resist.
The cap in those (50% mitigation) is 32k (or might be 35k, I cant find it on my notes)
Now, you get 5.7k armor/spell resist with the correct major buff spell. Therefore you could air for reach you cap after using this ability.
BUT its not that simple. For some reason (CP being one) its much easier to get more spell resist. Therefore you might end up overcapping spell resist so you get the right value of armor. I know some tanks on live uses armor jewel glyphs to equal those values.

Reaching those caps are important if you want to achieve feats such as (for example) this: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2189199#Comment_2189199

The tank in this video had to tank in in 10th arena of vdsa, Hiath + the 4 small bosses on himself. He had some armor on his jewel glyphs to achieve said mitigation. Note that this tank on this video was known to take Serpent's cleave across the face and live though it in SO. He ran 1x block redux, 1x armor, and the last one was fire/poison/spell resis depending on the situation.

Regens:
I'm a tank who prefers high sustainability in my builds. Therefore I aim for 900+ magika regen. I always run Atronach Mundus and often like to use 2x light in gloves/belt (their armor value it really low anyways...)

As of stam regen, for update 7 I wouldn't give this one a high value... BUT block cost redux could be mentionned here.
Personally I never have less than 2x jewel enchant of these. But I know tanks who ran with only 1 of these in vDSA and SO, giving you room for Armor/Elem Resist/Damage/More magik sustain.

With high CPs though, I could almost go without a single one of those enchants and go, lets say, spell dmg x3... until much much harder PvE contents comes out with bosses that would completely crush my stam/hp bar.

Weapon Damage : Meh... I never saw a high WD tank build yet...

Spell damage : unless you want to impress your groupmates with high dps meter numbers by running high dps tanking build, which has its flaws, you will not need tons of this. Personally, its my least important stats in my builds.

Conclusion: From the intro of your posts, I got that you are a bit tired of the ''normal'' tanking duties and want to try something different. But having high damage isnt the real solutions if you ask me.

Basic stuff (that most IDIOTS out there seems to be unable to realize looking as some video footage.
-Positioning of monsters vs. your group so they take less damage AND deal MORE damage like: Clumping trash of adds together to they get hit by the AOEs.
-Dropping Mitigation for allies (Nova, Veils).
-Using Protective/Restorative abilities on allies (Igneous Shield, Breath of Life, Bone Shield)
-Overall Crowd Control
-Debuffing targets (use more Pierce Armor than Inner Fire. Using Low slash)
-BURST damage (Dropping Dawnbreaker of Smiting on a bunch of daedric adds to stun/damage them for example to help you allies manage it)
-Being Self sufficient (not requiring extra healing/shards/what ever. Letting the rest of your group focus on other duties than keep you full of stam/hp)
-Buffing/Supporting allies (Repentance/Restauring aura/Shards/Imperium set/Lord Warden set/Power of the Light/Purifying Ritual)

I can give you an example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-yG6DJ4iA0

In this video at 1:15 we fight the 1st boss of vet WGT.

Overall this is what she does:
-Waves attack that deals 16k+ per hit, 32k if you are too close and get hit by 2.
-Pickup up an ally and imprison it in a cage which that person has to pick a lock to get out.
-Spawns adds that have a pretty high hp pool that use come CC attacks, which she can heal to heal herself.
-Constantly bolts are being thrown on players so everyone constantly takes damage, therefore the healer has to always heal.
-Fire rings on the ground so spamming healing springs doesnt work well.

Other than keeping aggro of the boss, here are my jobs (in priority):

-Keep the boss away from cages for allies to have room to range it so they dont eat double Waves for 32k dmg and for if an ally is trapped in a cage during waves.
-Help calling out when she turns around to wave-attack allies
-Position boss to the DK can damage it on melee range it away from fire rings.
-Be self sustained in HP and STAM because if the healer is trapped she is too far to heal. If a DPS is trapped, she must go heal him as he must pick a lock.
-When adds spawn, I try to have a Dawnbreaker of Smiting ready to help my dps aoe burst em down. The boss ends up eating those adds if they are not dealt with.
-Help with damage with Swallow Soul + build ULT.
-Support allies with Imperium set bubble + Lord Warden Circle


Those are examples. You are smart, you can figure out the rest if you theorycraft on this

Kupoking

olemanwinter wrote: »

"Possible" and "Manageable".....with a set that has been nerfed and no longer works that way.

Anyone who has ever been a part of a group mixed with Aussies and NA players and experienced the delays KNOWS that attempting to time your blocks for the big hits, etc is just nonsense.

This blocking nerf is going to drive players from the game...in droves!

It will drive away bad players more certainly... players which have kindof your attitude...

Iduyenn

@houimetub17_ESO

I certainly didn expect such an awsome answer. Thank you very much for taking the time!

I have 550+ Championpoints, so i will have some Options when IC hits in 2 days. And that will give me some possibilities (and a headache, concerning theorycrafting).
I even testet further on PTS and its quite the truth:

The best thing you can have: Lots of CP`s. But even with less, ppl, will find a way around the "stamina issue"
With the armor Master set for instance, you nearly need no traits and championpoints to hit armor and spellresistance cap.
And that means, that you will have a lot of ressources (new tri-stat-glyphs, new food and you can now use the "good" traits on armor. I had no problem to hit 30k life and 28k Stamina. (With V16 you have even more options).
---> That`s the "to the topic of this post" part.

I thank you again for the armor suggestions. That is something, i rearly hear good theories about. I admit, that altough i am a dedicated player, i have a lot to learn. For example, i never was a good pvp`er. As a healer ppl loved me anyways, but since 1 Year i am a dedicated Tank. And with IC i would like to keep my Tel`var Stones to myself
For me its hard (in pvp) to find the ballance between "pressure to your opponent"/burst and "sustain". I will definitly try out Seducer, Magnus, Warlock and Healer (or something like it).
You and others also pointed out, that magicka sustain will be/is important for your offence/sustain. So as a DK/Templar you will leave the stamina for your defense?! That would be a reason to be a Vampire and focus on spellpower (or the magicka sustain, as you wrote it).
Since elemental defender (Champion Point trait) is important, even if you are not a vampire. You could hit two birds with one stone... (pve perspective).
Up until now, i tried to be a Werewolf. I even thought of building a "Werwolf Tank" (Tanking in WW form with the Tormentor set). But it seems ridiculous.

The Problem are the numbers again:

For example: How much blockcostreduction does a tank need? I can put 100 points in Championpoints and have 3 glyphs on my rings/neckless. I know... no caps here, but it feels waisted.

I am a Fan of Shield Expert and to have the maximum out of it, i will reinforce my shields. Its more efficient than putting to much points in Heavy armor focus.
Concerning the problem, with the much higher spellresistance (coming from nowhere). This problem will exist in IC too and i think i will balance this (as you said) with the juwel- armor glyph.
As you said, my CP`s will give me the freedom to put offensive stuff on my rings, so it seems.

Another thing: Tristat glyphs? something like tristat food? More overall ressources?

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Conclusion: From the intro of your posts, I got that you are a bit tired of the ''normal'' tanking duties and want to try something different. But having high damage isnt the real solutions if you ask me.

Your observation is absolutely correct! But:

-Positioning of monsters vs. your group so they take less damage AND deal MORE damage like: Clumping trash of adds together to they get hit by the AOEs.
-Dropping Mitigation for allies (Nova, Veils).
-Using Protective/Restorative abilities on allies (Igneous Shield, Breath of Life, Bone Shield)
-Overall Crowd Control
-Debuffing targets (use more Pierce Armor than Inner Fire. Using Low slash)
-BURST damage (Dropping Dawnbreaker of Smiting on a bunch of daedric adds to stun/damage them for example to help you allies manage it)
-Being Self sufficient (not requiring extra healing/shards/what ever. Letting the rest of your group focus on other duties than keep you full of stam/hp)
-Buffing/Supporting allies (Repentance/Restauring aura/Shards/Imperium set/Lord Warden set/Power of the Light/Purifying Ritual)

That is exactely my definition of my tanking. That is the main reason, why i am so defensive and have 20k+ Magicka and Stamina... (to support my group, chains etc.) But i heared voices (here but also ingame), wich ask of me to do more dmg.

I think my defeinsive gear will be the armor master set (since i cant wear twice born star anymore (The second mundus stone gets lost everytime you have to change the gear... apart from that... i freakin` love this set.
Another Problem are the trinkets. Seems i am stuck with footsoldier, at least when i try to be defensive...

I will now study upon my different setups. And i will most certainly be frustraited.

Thnx again for your explanations!

MaxwellC

Yeah I'm sorry this doesn't cut it for me. If you're using damage shields in-order to mitigate damage rather than relying on blocking then that isn't good (IMO).

Sure you can minimize blocking by flooding CP into block reduction but what about others who lack a significant amount of CP?

I'm a DK and as a DK correct me if I'm wrong but we get only 1 class specific damage shield (igenous shield morph) and that in its-self is lackluster when used for mitigating damage as all bosses you fight especially at v14 will break that damage shield in 1 hit. Addition:Mobs may break it in 2 hits.
You tried to tank and that's the good part but honestly you weren't really necessary towards the end, it was pretty painful to watch.
It's gonna suck for Tanks when this goes live especially since ZoS can't fix how horrible heavy armor, and don't get me started on that 0% stam regen on blocking.

Kupoking

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Yeah I'm sorry this doesn't cut it for me. If you're using damage shields in-order to mitigate damage rather than relying on blocking then that isn't good (IMO).

Sure you can minimize blocking by flooding CP into block reduction but what about others who lack a significant amount of CP?

I'm a DK and as a DK correct me if I'm wrong but we get only 1 class specific damage shield (igenous shield morph) and that in its-self is lackluster when used for mitigating damage as all bosses you fight especially at v14 will break that damage shield in 1 hit. Addition:Mobs may break it in 2 hits.
You tried to tank and that's the good part but honestly you weren't really necessary towards the end, it was pretty painful to watch.
It's gonna suck for Tanks when this goes live especially since ZoS can't fix how horrible heavy armor, and don't get me started on that 0% stam regen on blocking.

Tanked with a NB in one of the vids I posted with no dmg shield. Perhaps you should read more than only the initial post.

As of using the dmg shields... I cant say ''im sorry'' for using the tools I have at my disposal. Its basically like asking a DK not to use Green dragon's blood or coagulating blood...

Vaelen

Got to love that FF8 Laguna Battle Remix music in the video! But honestly, try tanking 4 axes now in AA and record and show us.

Kupoking

Vaelen wrote: »

Got to love that FF8 Laguna Battle Remix music in the video! But honestly, try tanking 4 axes now in AA and record and show us.

Man, everybody thinks im crazy when I ask them to run AA hm on pts on my nb tank.

Patch is monday Ill try to slip into a raid, although Ill most likely be v16 then making it much easier.

trimsic_ESO

To be honest, the video shows you're not at ease during the encounter, and as you're paying attention to your stamina resource management you're forced to tank in a non-natural way. I believe the video shows the contrary of what you wanted to prove.

Kupoking

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

To be honest, the video shows you're not at ease during the encounter, and as you're paying attention to your stamina resource management you're forced to tank in a non-natural way. I believe the video shows the contrary of what you wanted to prove.

The video shows my very first time tanking in this update. So it is what it is.

Couldve also ran the same content 100x, then edit everything to give a fake feeling that I am a god tanking. No chose to show raw footage of my very 1st time tanking to prove the point that It doesnt take much to adjust.

Oh and I feel like you never even tried the content yet. Go run vWGT now and tell me if you dont struggle in your 1st run. Its easy to comment like that from the backseat.

trimsic_ESO

Hum, you should try to stand in people's shoes. You can't post a video that actually shows you're not at ease, give this post a title that says "hey look at my video, we can tank in 2.1", and expect at the same time that no one will criticize you

Furthermore, you missed the point. The question is not whether we can tank in 2.1, but whether it's fun to tank in 2.1.

Kupoking

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Hum, you should try to stand in people's shoes. You can't post a video that actually shows you're not at ease, give this post a title that says "hey look at my video, we can tank in 2.1", and expect at the same time that no one will criticize you

Furthermore, you missed the point. The question is not whether we can tank in 2.1, but whether it's fun to tank in 2.1.

Well the fun factor isnt something you can put a value that fits everyone really. I find it fun, other may not.

Inactive Account

I am going to be overly simplistic in my commet here, but... even if this turns out to be a bad " nerf " incoming, how is this any differet than any other major patch; boost or nerf?

The Op has his head in the right place. Adapt and overcome.

No matter what comes into play soon, you will need to change your play style, and unfortunately, most likely, some of your gear.

It can be frustrating, but if you wait long enough, and offer enough constructive feed back, things will change.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

the short version: the OP seems to have proved that they moved tanks from adaptive combat we are used to in ESO to the vanilla combat we see in 90% of the MMOs today. you eat crap and die- thats the life of the tank. they just pushed tanks further into the niche department with these changes imo.

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

To be honest, the video shows you're not at ease during the encounter, and as you're paying attention to your stamina resource management you're forced to tank in a non-natural way. I believe the video shows the contrary of what you wanted to prove.

The video shows my very first time tanking in this update. So it is what it is.

Couldve also ran the same content 100x, then edit everything to give a fake feeling that I am a god tanking. No chose to show raw footage of my very 1st time tanking to prove the point that It doesnt take much to adjust.

Oh and I feel like you never even tried the content yet. Go run vWGT now and tell me if you dont struggle in your 1st run. Its easy to comment like that from the backseat.

i have been tanking long enough to get what i needed out of the video. i do have my opinion about your tank, but i lack facts to back em up, so i think my opinion is moot. the video communicated the info i needed, and prefer the raw format for your stated reasons. kudos. (no that is not sarcasm its serious appreciation)

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

I am going to be overly simplistic in my commet here, but... even if this turns out to be a bad " nerf " incoming, how is this any differet than any other major patch; boost or nerf?

The Op has his head in the right place. Adapt and overcome.

No matter what comes into play soon, you will need to change your play style, and unfortunately, most likely, some of your gear.

It can be frustrating, but if you wait long enough, and offer enough constructive feed back, things will change.

there has been a large swath of constructive feed back, on this post as well as others. many hate that change, some are neutral, and some are for it. the devs in their show even stated that it was a 50-50 split for/against this change, but they will move forward with it. i mean really? is that composed of 50% of the DPS community versus the 50% of the tanker and healer community combined? or is it a mix and mash of all sum of the parts? they did internal testing through out the process, or so they claim. is that the same internal testing that brought the game up to this point? if it is, yeah they lost credibility with a fair amount of individuals there (myself included).

can i adapt? yes, proof- the video posted here. did i like what i saw in said video (not critiquing the player)? no, not really. are there much better options? lol stupid question- yes!!

based on the logic of your statement, im going to have to invest in champion points, gear, enchants, and attributes, knowing sometime in the future when ZoS pulls their lazy heads out of their asses with this odd change (especially after the constructive criticism) and truly fix the problem. then i can once again, reallocate my champion points, my attribute points, my skill points, and my gear to fit a more enjoyable method of playing..... O_O yeah..... awesome. note: this is not the first time within the YEAR of it being made live that situation has occurred. thankfully they are raising VRs so gear would have to be changed, but that doesn't hold when comparing attributes and champion points.

they could have just put soft-caps back in, which could have made things a bit more balanced, and addressed the concerns of the people complaining about the CP imbalance in PVP. sure you can stack to 100% crit, but you neglect the other stats and begin to receive diminished returns etc. the champion system will help you get to the soft caps, but then you have to start focusing in on the other stats or take the diminished returns. this should also allow more casual players to address a lack of gear, with a surplus of points. while there will still be a group that completely out gears/points the more casuals, soft-caps keep out the potential for god-mode and one hit wonders to a minimum. yes, this does nullify your thousands of points, but for the short term. it sure as hell beats their seasonal cap idea. you can play and acquire beyond the point of the soft-cap requirement now, and later when the soft-caps are adjusted with the VR/levels (they always are) then you still have the same over all edge.

they could have also gone with, block = 70% reduction in damage received AND a 70% damage reduction with damage dealt. if their mission is to make tanking more "fun and dynamic" then having to choose between kill and be killed, what skill when (with block up, or block down), keep people from block-casting spells with high mitigations and high DPS, and it maintains a point to having tanks in PVP- they serve as an unkillible distraction, but not a major source of DPS unless said tank is skilled and knowledgeable in their role (knows when to block and not to, knows which skill is best for block and which aren't).

the OP proved the point- it is doable and manageable, but i also saw situations that didn't at all seem more fun or dynamic, compared to how i play now. i don't know if this is an example of "a good tank tanking" and don't really know if i care. if they are an "average player" this is what an average player could expect; if this is a hardcore raider with gear and points out the ass, then we are probably ***. either way, the block/dodge roll nerfs probably wasn't the BEST option.

note: im still on the fence with regard to dodge roll. i can't say i have had a ton of experience with a large need to spam it, so not sure if that is worth worrying about. ill listen to other players input with that regard.

Inactive Account

Well that was more feed back than I had expected from my simplistic post.

Unfortunately, as with this post, my message can only truly be considered anecdotal.


I can see and understand many of your points expressed in your post, and it would be hard for me to disagree with them with the information that I have on hand ( no hard data to support my thoughts ).

From what I have gathered, from the forums, here and elsewhere, The Dedicated Tank, has been quite possible removed from game play; as we have been accustomed to. ( for how long? we will have to see.)

With all the controversial changes being implemented tomorrow when the patch goes live, Groups in PvE and PvP will have to adapt, and not just the Tank rolled player. If you are a dedicated Tank, and want to be focused on that role and nothing else, it does look like this patch is about to serve you a large mug of grief.
I can remember from Beta, and early release, the sometimes heated and in depth threads, on these forums, on the topics of the MMO Trinity (the Tank, the Healer, and the Damage Dealers)and it's place in ESO.
Just maybe this topic is going to be resurrected.

The other members of any group content, the DDs, and the Healers will most likely have to adapt their builds as well to play a more diverse roll.

I am simply pulling this out of my ass here, but this change, if kept for long, will bring about more Hybrid builds, Most notable in regards to the Tanking role. ( with Healers, looking to be affected in large part as well).

I could not even guess, if this was, in any way, a part of the plan. Maybe there is a plan to try and expand the class diversity?
Who knows?

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

Well that was more feed back than I had expected from my simplistic post.

Unfortunately, as with this post, my message can only truly be considered anecdotal.


I can see and understand many of your points expressed in your post, and it would be hard for me to disagree with them with the information that I have on hand ( no hard data to support my thoughts ).

From what I have gathered, from the forums, here and elsewhere, The Dedicated Tank, has been quite possible removed from game play; as we have been accustomed to. ( for how long? we will have to see.)

With all the controversial changes being implemented tomorrow when the patch goes live, Groups in PvE and PvP will have to adapt, and not just the Tank rolled player. If you are a dedicated Tank, and want to be focused on that role and nothing else, it does look like this patch is about to serve you a large mug of grief.
I can remember from Beta, and early release, the sometimes heated and in depth threads, on these forums, on the topics of the MMO Trinity (the Tank, the Healer, and the Damage Dealers)and it's place in ESO.
Just maybe this topic is going to be resurrected.

The other members of any group content, the DDs, and the Healers will most likely have to adapt their builds as well to play a more diverse roll.

I am simply pulling this out of my ass here, but this change, if kept for long, will bring about more Hybrid builds, Most notable in regards to the Tanking role. ( with Healers, looking to be affected in large part as well).

I could not even guess, if this was, in any way, a part of the plan. Maybe there is a plan to try and expand the class diversity?
Who knows?

i tried to bold the points, which are more in hopes that ZoS sees than anyone else. this is specifically what a PTS is for, in the MMO industry- free thinking promotes diverse ideas to reach a solution.

short version: the change impacts everyone greatly, completely changes tanking, and all for what seems to be a niche fighter- the permablocker/block caster in PVP (some argue in PVE as well). this will probably be overall a greater detriment than a benefit, at least for short term, if not long term (my guess they will change everything again with the next DLC).

longer version:

the dedicated tank: from what i am seeing is that this is now what has been made. if you want to have mitigations/survivibilty you must now focus hard on it. which brings up the flaw- they didn't exactly get rid of blockcaster/permablockers they just have to really focus on that. for me its less about being accustomed to it, than simply having to once again, within the course of a year (with no new content since i don't PVP) rebuild my character, to suit no new content. its not like an expansion (not some DLC as its typically smaller in scale) where a whole slew of new game mechanics are introduced. its just one small aspect of the game that gets something new. before the change to armor passives and the removal of hard caps, tanks ranged from all sorts of armor combinations. i had been playing with 3 heavy 2 medium and 2 light, and was weighing pros and cons of various armors for mitigations, damage, and resource management, as i had a mix of stamina and magicka abilities. with the removal of hard caps and the change of passives, all players were pretty well forced into the "holy trinity" based on resource use- light for magicka; medium for stamina; heavy for survivibility. i currently have 5 heavy 1 light, 1 medium, and im pretty damn sure, ill have to go with 5 heavy 2 medium (killing diversity they claim they seek). then i have to look at the abilities and adjust those- which will probably further kill diversity, then my attributes, champion points, blah blah blah and so on. all so i can shift from my hybrid to my "full, fledged, tank from HELLLLLLLLLL" .... that can't hit anything for ***. since i play with abilities, i may have most of them pretty well where i need them to be, but anything i didn't level (because i didn't realize i had to level everything...) is going to have to be leveled/morphed and theorycrafted, then tested, rinse and repeat.

everyone else has to adapt: so about 75% of the population may have to change for what? 10%? 25%? how far reaching was this issue?. i had no clue with this being an issue.... from people's complaints, it now looks like PVP is just a large to small scale DPS race with each other. that really won't help the situation there. so instead of worrying about blocking/permablocking/block casting in PVP, they are worried about the same stats to burn down targets. i don't see that it changed anything except now everyone has the "block" aspect. healers will now have to over build healing, melee DPS stamina, well i would mention tanks but ya know..... and same with the rest. its ridiculous.

the hybrids: i could easily be wrong, but fundamentally, to be a tank you must now build to tank. you don't get to pick and choose abilities as freely now, because you are potentially be forced into, 1 taunt, 4 stamina enhancer abilities. or you have to go with 1 taunt and 4 magicka abilities. ironically i just finished playing with a DK aoe tank skill set and its fun, but with the changes ill have to drop the 2h weapon for a S&B at the least. no biggie, i can still have a grinder/farmer medium set for those activities, but i already had that. now to be a tank, i may end up being built more for a tank and less for a melee based DPS, due to attribute and champion point distribution. so now i either suck it up for what it is, or play more to grind out what i need.

hell, reading my post, it kinda got me to thinking..... none of this has anything to do with blocking. sounds more like a large time sink ALL players will now have to deal with-new abilites, more champion points needed, different armor sets, potentially relearning/transitioning to different roles...... that all takes time, even if you use the "cookie-cutter" builds, since you still have to work at them, and for them to be successful. yeah, you will save time with the cookie-cutter builds, but it will take time over just continuing your current role and current builds.

felinith66

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

I just posted a video of me ta king harder content not using shards, old black rose, engine guardian and you are all still bitching?

Really I dont know what to say more now. Im on the brink of calling people idiots.

why didn't you use your templar tank for that example? Why did you use a Nightblade instead? Were you not able to it with your templar? Just curious. As I usually run w/ a templar tank and our healer is a NB. We have no other templar on our group. If a templar tank cannot do it without shards and EG, they might end up switching roles.

Kupoking

felinith66 wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

I just posted a video of me ta king harder content not using shards, old black rose, engine guardian and you are all still bitching?

Really I dont know what to say more now. Im on the brink of calling people idiots.

why didn't you use your templar tank for that example? Why did you use a Nightblade instead? Were you not able to it with your templar? Just curious. As I usually run w/ a templar tank and our healer is a NB. We have no other templar on our group. If a templar tank cannot do it without shards and EG, they might end up switching roles.

Because someone here requested that I try it with NB.

Surprisingly enough, the group went 'better' when I was on my templar than on my DK as we were barely able to get through the 1st boss with pretty much the same grp.

Only thing more difficult on templar tanks is gettng stam while blocking. You must bubble then use heavy attack.

But their magika sustain go high if you use the rune focus that you can pretty much offheal. They got blocking passives in aedric spear, which nb dont.

Oh and they lack in the dmg department, unless you know how puncture sweep without being rocked by hard hitting attacks.

I will still run engine guardian on my templar tough for now.

olemanwinter

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

It will drive away bad players more certainly... players which have kindof your attitude...

I'm such a bad player. Seriously. I'm really bad. Could you teach me to play? Thanks.