Major BUG: Certain abilities get PVP penalty twice, and become useless.

SeptimusDova · August 2015

Even My Khajiits Cuteness was affected! I am glad to see the redundancy reduction is getting looked at.

Domander · August 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just want to follow up and let you all know that we did investigate and confirmed an issue with the battle spirit buff affecting abilities that do damage and heal you based on the damage dealt; the heals are less effective than intended. We're working on fixing it, though - thanks again for the reports!

Healing ward and blazing shield are also double reduced!

Brasseurfb16_ESO · August 2015

Don't forget WW Claws of Life.

Maulkin · August 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just want to follow up and let you all know that we did investigate and confirmed an issue with the battle spirit buff affecting abilities that do damage and heal you based on the damage dealt; the heals are less effective than intended. We're working on fixing it, though - thanks again for the reports!

Is the same supposed to apply on shields or not? If heals on dmg currently have 75% nerf but 50% is the correct value shouldn't the same be for shield heals like Healing Ward?

Because last I heard HW was to be fixed and the heal to be 150% of the shield's value instead of 300%. But since the shield is already 50% of the previous size, that would make the total heal nerf 75% of the previous heal value.

So which is the correct nerf percent for HW, 50% or 75%?

monkeymystic · August 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just want to follow up and let you all know that we did investigate and confirmed an issue with the battle spirit buff affecting abilities that do damage and heal you based on the damage dealt; the heals are less effective than intended. We're working on fixing it, though - thanks again for the reports!

Is the same supposed to apply on shields or not? If heals on dmg currently have 75% nerf but 50% is the correct value shouldn't the same be for shield heals like Healing Ward?

Because last I heard HW was to be fixed and the heal to be 150% of the shield's value instead of 300%. But since the shield is already 50% of the previous size, that would make the total heal nerf 75% of the previous heal value.

So which is the correct nerf percent for HW, 50% or 75%?

This also needs to be addressed, since it's the only non-templar ability that is useful against burst damage. And it will be gimped otherwise with nothing competing against templar heals.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

technohic · August 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey all, just want to let you know that we are looking into all the abilities reported, and will let you know when we have an update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Has there been any updates on this?

Teargrants · August 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just want to follow up and let you all know that we did investigate and confirmed an issue with the battle spirit buff affecting abilities that do damage and heal you based on the damage dealt; the heals are less effective than intended. We're working on fixing it, though - thanks again for the reports!

This is a bad joke. I know it's your job to help ZOS save face, but don't for one second expect us to believe that the double nerfed heals which function from % damage done was " less effective than intended". It is functioning exactly as the blanket Battle Spirit debuff was designed, exactly as it was coded - simply a blanket decrease to all dmg/healing.

Any dmg the game parses gets a ([dmg]*0.5) modifier during calculations, and any healing gets a ([heal]*0.5) modifier. Any layman should see right away that this means heals based off dmg done looks like this: ([([dmg]*0.5)]*0.5), meaning the heal is now 75% weaker in Cyrodiil than outside of Cyrodiil. You don't code a blanket debuff into the game like this w/o understanding what it does.

Now, there are a number of workarounds to fix this:

1 - Code a new healing classification for healing based off dmg done, then add that into Battle Spirit w/ 0% debuff since dmg done is already decreased 50%.

2 - Code each individual healing based on dmg done ability to function differently in/out of Cyrodiil. Non Cyrodiil healing value stays the same, but double the heal value in Cyrodiil. That way when the healing debuff halves the heal, you end up w/ the heal maintaining it's strength relative to dmg done.

Of course I guess I shouldn't be surprised that ZOS chose the easiest way of doing nothing until forum outcries forced their hand.

david.haypreub18_ESO · August 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

But I do not understand why ZOS does keep the tension AND the frustration awake, by not being responsive a bit faster...

They're busy designing new icons for all skills, and new pets for the Crown Store.

Domander · August 2015

so... is everything still getting double hit? I've only really tested healing ward. (it is)

technohic · August 2015

Domander wrote: »

so... is everything still getting double hit? I've only really tested healing ward. (it is)

They have been quiet about it so here is how it goes. They look at it and finally realize that a blanket reduction to everything is not balance. It just makes everything weaker but the best abilities are still the bestimate except for ones that take this double effect. That is probably where we are.

Now, They cannot change the code of the abilities alone, as that would mess with PVE where these abilities are fine and untouched. They would have to code something in battle spirit for those abilities specifically which I don't think has ever been done. Probably a lot of work which flies in the face of the idea of an easy blanket nerf and something they didn't plan to invest Dev time in.

So what will happen is they will try to be quiet about it and hope the issue just becomes part of life and accepted or forgotten. After all, there are so many other abilities people can use. But they have done this so much, and in case of Templars, this affects 2 of their bread and butter abilities so much to where they are losing yet more options on a class that has become weaker and weaker in PVP. So st very least, Templars will add this to their on going complaint thread and harp on it for as long as there are Templars left. Only to eventually have ZOS finally break silence to say it's working as intended just like it does for the non-Templar abilities also being mentioned right now. As if they were not part of the initial issue when it was brought up.

Sacadon · August 2015

technohic wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

so... is everything still getting double hit? I've only really tested healing ward. (it is)

They have been quiet about it so here is how it goes. They look at it and finally realize that a blanket reduction to everything is not balance. It just makes everything weaker but the best abilities are still the bestimate except for ones that take this double effect. That is probably where we are.

Now, They cannot change the code of the abilities alone, as that would mess with PVE where these abilities are fine and untouched. They would have to code something in battle spirit for those abilities specifically which I don't think has ever been done. Probably a lot of work which flies in the face of the idea of an easy blanket nerf and something they didn't plan to invest Dev time in.

So what will happen is they will try to be quiet about it and hope the issue just becomes part of life and accepted or forgotten. After all, there are so many other abilities people can use. But they have done this so much, and in case of Templars, this affects 2 of their bread and butter abilities so much to where they are losing yet more options on a class that has become weaker and weaker in PVP. So st very least, Templars will add this to their on going complaint thread and harp on it for as long as there are Templars left. Only to eventually have ZOS finally break silence to say it's working as intended just like it does for the non-Templar abilities also being mentioned right now. As if they were not part of the initial issue when it was brought up.

^^ yep... and! whether it's truth or not is irrelevant, as this is precisely how their non-transparency has translated for players day 1.

Rune_Relic · August 2015

balance, nerf, bodge fix, balance, nerf, bodge fix, balance, nerf, bodge fix, balance, nerf......
How much time and money have you wasted on manually balancing the game, repairing the bodged fixes and nerfing OP skills ZOS.
Would it not have been better to do it properly and do it once and automate the process to eliminate the errors ?

Is it still not better to do it properly now....and put this issue to bed.... and waste no more time and money with half arsed manual fixes ?

Would you not rather just be leisurely making new content so we can all sit back and say WOW (like we want to and is deserved in so many ways) instead of beating you over the head with a broom ?

I know you tried really hard to fix soo many of the balance issues and I generally give you a pat on the back for all the effort you have put in.
Its clear you do listen and care as much as many of us.
Yet this thread just goes to show how completely worthless all that effort was.
That's as painful for me to say it as it is for you to hear it.

Hopefully balancing PVE and PVP separately is a lesson learned as a bad idea.
KISS.
Please don't make the code ever more complex to fix issues created by previous issues and make an undecipherable mess in the process that takes months to fix let alone understand.
Please create an auto-tuning system instead of manually tuning everything and failing.
Please balance classes 1st....and NPC content after.

hrothbern · August 2015

technohic wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

so... is everything still getting double hit? I've only really tested healing ward. (it is)

They have been quiet about it so here is how it goes. They look at it and finally realize that a blanket reduction to everything is not balance. It just makes everything weaker but the best abilities are still the bestimate except for ones that take this double effect. That is probably where we are.

Now, They cannot change the code of the abilities alone, as that would mess with PVE where these abilities are fine and untouched. They would have to code something in battle spirit for those abilities specifically which I don't think has ever been done. Probably a lot of work which flies in the face of the idea of an easy blanket nerf and something they didn't plan to invest Dev time in.

So what will happen is they will try to be quiet about it and hope the issue just becomes part of life and accepted or forgotten. After all, there are so many other abilities people can use. But they have done this so much, and in case of Templars, this affects 2 of their bread and butter abilities so much to where they are losing yet more options on a class that has become weaker and weaker in PVP. So st very least, Templars will add this to their on going complaint thread and harp on it for as long as there are Templars left. Only to eventually have ZOS finally break silence to say it's working as intended just like it does for the non-Templar abilities also being mentioned right now. As if they were not part of the initial issue when it was brought up.

Just from someone who has been responsible for managing this kind of projects in his professional life, both the coding when I was young, and the rest later on....
..... This needed corrective action is not that hard to change in coding AND not that hard to manage :-)

Docmandu · August 2015

I really don't like making PvE and PvP give different damage/healing/... stats. In a game like DAoC it worked perfectly fine to have the exact same stats in PvE as PvP, why do we need all this very error-prone scaling / balancing for PvP. It's clear it's a mess to make it work.

Better lock all the combat guys in a room for a week and don't let them come out before resolving this mess.

shugg · August 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just want to follow up and let you all know that we did investigate and confirmed an issue with the battle spirit buff affecting abilities that do damage and heal you based on the damage dealt; the heals are less effective than intended. We're working on fixing it, though - thanks again for the reports!

Hi can i ask if you can do the same with the new armour sets that do damage and heal of yhe damage caused like the leeching set please, thanks

david.haypreub18_ESO · August 2015

hrothbern wrote: »

But I do not understand why ZOS does keep the tension AND the frustration awake, by not being responsive a bit faster...

They're busy designing new icons for all skills, and new pets for the Crown Store.

technohic wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

so... is everything still getting double hit? I've only really tested healing ward. (it is)

They have been quiet about it so here is how it goes. They look at it and finally realize that a blanket reduction to everything is not balance. It just makes everything weaker but the best abilities are still the bestimate except for ones that take this double effect. That is probably where we are.

Now, They cannot change the code of the abilities alone, as that would mess with PVE where these abilities are fine and untouched. They would have to code something in battle spirit for those abilities specifically which I don't think has ever been done. Probably a lot of work which flies in the face of the idea of an easy blanket nerf and something they didn't plan to invest Dev time in.

So what will happen is they will try to be quiet about it and hope the issue just becomes part of life and accepted or forgotten. After all, there are so many other abilities people can use. But they have done this so much, and in case of Templars, this affects 2 of their bread and butter abilities so much to where they are losing yet more options on a class that has become weaker and weaker in PVP. So st very least, Templars will add this to their on going complaint thread and harp on it for as long as there are Templars left. Only to eventually have ZOS finally break silence to say it's working as intended just like it does for the non-Templar abilities also being mentioned right now. As if they were not part of the initial issue when it was brought up.

This is exactly what will happen.

monkeymystic · August 2015

technohic wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

so... is everything still getting double hit? I've only really tested healing ward. (it is)

They have been quiet about it so here is how it goes. They look at it and finally realize that a blanket reduction to everything is not balance. It just makes everything weaker but the best abilities are still the bestimate except for ones that take this double effect. That is probably where we are.

Now, They cannot change the code of the abilities alone, as that would mess with PVE where these abilities are fine and untouched. They would have to code something in battle spirit for those abilities specifically which I don't think has ever been done. Probably a lot of work which flies in the face of the idea of an easy blanket nerf and something they didn't plan to invest Dev time in.

So what will happen is they will try to be quiet about it and hope the issue just becomes part of life and accepted or forgotten. After all, there are so many other abilities people can use. But they have done this so much, and in case of Templars, this affects 2 of their bread and butter abilities so much to where they are losing yet more options on a class that has become weaker and weaker in PVP. So st very least, Templars will add this to their on going complaint thread and harp on it for as long as there are Templars left. Only to eventually have ZOS finally break silence to say it's working as intended just like it does for the non-Templar abilities also being mentioned right now. As if they were not part of the initial issue when it was brought up.

If they don't fix this now, they might as well pack their bags and shut down their servers.
Because ignoring issues like these is a really bad move. It will just send a huge signal that they don't care about fixing their game, or the balance of the game in the long run, and that we should not pay a sub.

Developers that send a signal that they don't take issues like these seriously, will just end their game early. Hopefully ZOS is not that stupid to let that happen.

Radburn · August 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey all, just want to let you know that we are looking into all the abilities reported, and will let you know when we have an update.

Thank you for acknowledging the problem.

In the case of Blazing Shield, it will need more than a review of its x2 nerf to damage. The Battle spirit changes have turned one of the Templar's class defining skills into an ability that now handicaps the player in PvP. The Damage shield is not worth the high cost of magcika or the 1 second Global cooldown it takes to cast it.

Teargrants · August 2015

monkeymystic wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Domander wrote: »

so... is everything still getting double hit? I've only really tested healing ward. (it is)

They have been quiet about it so here is how it goes. They look at it and finally realize that a blanket reduction to everything is not balance. It just makes everything weaker but the best abilities are still the bestimate except for ones that take this double effect. That is probably where we are.

Now, They cannot change the code of the abilities alone, as that would mess with PVE where these abilities are fine and untouched. They would have to code something in battle spirit for those abilities specifically which I don't think has ever been done. Probably a lot of work which flies in the face of the idea of an easy blanket nerf and something they didn't plan to invest Dev time in.

So what will happen is they will try to be quiet about it and hope the issue just becomes part of life and accepted or forgotten. After all, there are so many other abilities people can use. But they have done this so much, and in case of Templars, this affects 2 of their bread and butter abilities so much to where they are losing yet more options on a class that has become weaker and weaker in PVP. So st very least, Templars will add this to their on going complaint thread and harp on it for as long as there are Templars left. Only to eventually have ZOS finally break silence to say it's working as intended just like it does for the non-Templar abilities also being mentioned right now. As if they were not part of the initial issue when it was brought up.

If they don't fix this now, they might as well pack their bags and shut down their servers.
Because ignoring issues like these is a really bad move. It will just send a huge signal that they don't care about fixing their game, or the balance of the game in the long run, and that we should not pay a sub.

Developers that send a signal that they don't take issues like these seriously, will just end their game early. Hopefully ZOS is not that stupid to let that happen.

I see your "optimism in ZOS's commitment to balance" and raise you one "Cyrodiil lagged to hell with no measurable improvement for over a year".

Yeah...

technohic · August 2015

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey all, just want to let you know that we are looking into all the abilities reported, and will let you know when we have an update.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Any more updates?

technohic · August 2015

Looks like it is in the patch notes if people want to test and see for sure or if any abilities were missed.

Several abilities which have damage, damage shield, or healing components that scale off each other will no longer be hit multiple times by Battle Spirit’s reductions. This includes the following abilities:
Nightblade: Strife (and morphs), Soul Tether
Templar: Puncturing Sweep, Blazing Shield, Radiant Glory
Dragonknight: Inhale, Burning Embers
Sorcerer: Surge
Mages Guild: Degeneration
Restoration Staff: Healing Ward