Major BUG: Certain abilities get PVP penalty twice, and become useless.

monkeymystic

Many abilities that have both a damage part and a healing part gets hit by the 50% PVP reduction TWICE, making the ability nerfed twice has hard as intended in PVP.

Examples are Templars Puncturing Sweep which now heals for nothing due to 50% dmg penalty AND 50% healing penalty on the heal based on damage afterwards, making the healing part get nerfed twice.

Abilities tested so far that suffer from this is BUG:

• NB: Swallowing Soul/Funnel Health (key ability and HoT is now useless due to 2x penalty), Soul Tether (needs more testing).

• Templar: Blazing Shield, Puncturing Sweep (both key abilities that become useless in dmg return and heal return, respectively)
  

• DK: Draw Essence (Now a joke), Burning Embers.
  

• Sorc: Surge.
  
• Other skills: Healing ward ++

There are still probably many more abilities affected by this.

This NEEDS to be fixed, or it screws royally over balance compared to abilities like Flame Lash, where the healing part does NOT get penalty twice because it is not factored based on damage, another factor etc.


SOLUTION TO FIX: Either fix the penalty hitting twice, or make each factor separate from each other in the abilities mentioned. Instead of for example "heal 25% of damage done", change it to a seperate factor that scales the same way (so it heals the same) but does not rely on dmg done for 2x penalties.

Etaniel

I wouldn't call it a bug, I'd call it a design failure.
It's precisely why they should have tweaked skills individually instead of applying a big fat 30% nerf to everything.

Tonnopesce

How is sap essence ? Have you test it?

Leandor

Etaniel wrote: »

I wouldn't call it a bug, I'd call it a design failure.
It's precisely why they should have tweaked skills individually instead of applying a big fat 30% nerf to everything.

Agree with your conclusion but am apprehensive with your solution. Making these skills behave differently by adjusting their specifics to compensate for the universal double 50% debuff would make them borderline for PvE. This needs to be considered for any changes.

A possible solution would be to exclude the "healing based on damage done" abilities from the healing reduction debuff, not sure if that is possible code wise.

Kulvar

It's not a design failure, but "heal based on damages" should work separately from regular damage or heal.

Saturn

monkeymystic wrote: »

Many abilities that have both a damage part and a healing part gets hit by the 50% PVP reduction TWICE, making the ability nerfed twice has hard as intended in PVP.

Examples are Templars Puncturing Sweep which now heals for nothing due to 50% dmg penalty AND 50% healing penalty on the heal based on damage afterwards, making the healing part get nerfed twice.

Other abilities tested so far that suffer from this is BUG:

NB: Swallowing soul (Key ability and HoT is now useless due to 2x penalty), Soul Tether (needs more testing).

Templar: Blazing Shield, puncturing sweep (both key abilities that become useless in dmg return and heal return, respectively)

DK: Draw essence (Now a joke)

Sorc: Not yet tested.

This NEEDS to be fixed, or it screws royally over balance compared to abilities like Flame Lash, where the healing part does NOT get penalty twice because it is not factored based on damage, another factor etc.

I haven't tested it, but this would mean Burning Embers (DK ability) gets a nerf too, "35% of damage done when effect ends heals you". I assume on players this would get the double nerf too.

Cathexis

This probably applies to surge as well.

I hate that I have to deliberately point this out and hope it doesn't get overlooked when this sort of thing gets fixed. Stam sorcs are already underdogs without a useless surge.

Hektik_V

Instead of addressing the individual abilities that needed to be fixed and nerfed ZOS applied a sweeping nerfbat to everything without thought to actual balancing.

MissBizz

Yeah, it seems my blazing shield blows up on the first hit

monkeymystic

@ZOS_AidanF @ZOS_Gideon @ZOS_GinaBruno

There is still no official response to this?

It's a terrible game design failure/bug that will mess over balance in a BIG way for PVP.

Some classes rely a lot on abilities that have 2 seperate parts like these mentioned, both for survivability and dps, and when they get screwed over with 2 penalties, these classes, and these abilities are rendered 100% useless.

This should be fixed properly before live, or there is no point paying sub for a game that just killed 20% of the skills in the game with a bad design failure giving 50% penalty twice...

Xsorus

Etaniel wrote: »

I wouldn't call it a bug, I'd call it a design failure.
It's precisely why they should have tweaked skills individually instead of applying a big fat 30% nerf to everything.

Yeap, when they first announced this silliness i point out that Mythic did this crap in Warhammer Online, and the only thing it did was unbalance things further.

Kerioko

Another ability not mentioned much that is getting the double nerf is healing ward. With the way healing is, HoTs like funnel health and mutagen are useless, making healing ward and springs the only viable heals for non-Templar healers. Ward in almost useless in the fact you only get 50% of the shield, then 50% of the nerfed shields heal.

You should either get 100% shield with 50% heal, or 50% shield with 100% heal. As a NB healer, I can heal any content currently on live with funnel, mutegen, ward, and springs. Now with the way the new patch is, 2 of my 4 primary heals are double nerfed, and my half decent HoT is pretty much useless!

lathbury

Kerioko wrote: »

Another ability not mentioned much that is getting the double nerf is healing ward. With the way healing is, HoTs like funnel health and mutagen are useless, making healing ward and springs the only viable heals for non-Templar healers. Ward in almost useless in the fact you only get 50% of the shield, then 50% of the nerfed shields heal.

You should either get 100% shield with 50% heal, or 50% shield with 100% heal. As a NB healer, I can heal any content currently on live with funnel, mutegen, ward, and springs. Now with the way the new patch is, 2 of my 4 primary heals are double nerfed, and my half decent HoT is pretty much useless!

this unless there are changes nb healers are no longer a thing

Stikato

Unfortunately, this is what happens when simplistic changes such as Update 7 are introduced. As others have stated, rather than addressing the root causes of too much damage / healing / etc (hint: it was removing soft caps) they are just attempting to fix the symptoms.

monkeymystic

Kerioko wrote: »

Another ability not mentioned much that is getting the double nerf is healing ward. With the way healing is, HoTs like funnel health and mutagen are useless, making healing ward and springs the only viable heals for non-Templar healers. Ward in almost useless in the fact you only get 50% of the shield, then 50% of the nerfed shields heal.

You should either get 100% shield with 50% heal, or 50% shield with 100% heal. As a NB healer, I can heal any content currently on live with funnel, mutegen, ward, and springs. Now with the way the new patch is, 2 of my 4 primary heals are double nerfed, and my half decent HoT is pretty much useless!

This. @ZOS_GinaBruno still no response??

I can't believe ZOS might actually send this mess live.

They are just going to make it even more imbalanced, and they are seriously screwing over tons of skills with this programming fail.

ZOS, you do realise that with this nonsense, there are tons of examples, like you are making healing ward useless since 50% penalty kicks in TWICE = non templars will suck even more at healing in pvp. And balance is even worse.
Or NB healers which get *all* of their healing nerfed twice..(they rely on funnel health and healing ward, and both get 2x penalties with this design failure).

Jesus what a mess this patch will be if they send this joke live. I see many subs going to quit if they kill their own game lile this (and just like mythic did with warhammer and idiotic changes like this)

Domander

Something needs to be added to allow these abilities to function without getting double nerfed.

Cinbri

Same thing with Radiant Glory - healing ticks in execute mode lower than enemy light attacks.

hrothbern

I did test Funnel Health just now in PTS (NB, Vet 14, Mag Stat at 25k, no spell damage, no buffs-debuffs)
DESHAAN: My damage against Giant Snake in Ghost Snake Vale was 3164 and the heal 1102 (no crit damage, no crit heal)
CYRODIIL: My damage against Imperial Sergeant was 2933 and the heal was 544 (no crit damage, no crit heal)

My tooltip was in Deschaan and Cyrodill the same: Damage 3484 and heal 27%.

This is so incomprehendible...... that I do not speculate what the coding crew did perhaps wrong.... or what intentions where glitched... or not well enough thought through....

No clue at all.... but i just guesss... that this outcome was not intended... please ZOS say something about this :-)

Anazasi

The fix is pretty easy roll stamina build use stamina abilities and you can have massive damage. (sarcasm)

I really don't know how they are going to fix this, I don't think they know how they are going to fix this. I think I'm just shelfing my Templar and playing either DK or Sorc for now. Till something better comes along. Either that or just not play in Cryodiil.

Tankqull

it becomes pretty obvious no one at ZOS has passed a math class beyond the 5th class
with how unable they are to emmulate even a simple thing like a 50% reduction to healing wards shield value.

Tankqull

Anazasi wrote: »

The fix is pretty easy roll stamina build use stamina abilities and you can have massive damage. (sarcasm)

I really don't know how they are going to fix this, I don't think they know how they are going to fix this. I think I'm just shelfing my Templar and playing either DK or Sorc for now. Till something better comes along. Either that or just not play in Cryodiil.

Anazasi wrote: »

The fix is pretty easy roll stamina build use stamina abilities and you can have massive damage. (sarcasm)

I really don't know how they are going to fix this, I don't think they know how they are going to fix this. I think I'm just shelfing my Templar and playing either DK or Sorc for now. Till something better comes along. Either that or just not play in Cryodiil.

its easy seperate the calculations from each other
1st calculate base dmg based on spelldmg and maxmagica
2nd calculate PvP-dmg = basdamge * 0.5
3rd calculate PvP-healvalue = basedamge * 0.5 *healingvalue

Snit

More a design oversight than a bug, but it should be addressed. The math is pretty easy, so it shouldn't be hard to fix if the combat team wishes to do so.

Erondil

hrothbern wrote: »

I did test Funnel Health just now in PTS (NB, Vet 14, Mag Stat at 25k, no spell damage, no buffs-debuffs)
DESHAAN: My damage against Giant Snake in Ghost Snake Vale was 3164 and the heal 1102 (no crit damage, no crit heal)
CYRODIIL: My damage against Imperial Sergeant was 2933 and the heal was 544 (no crit damage, no crit heal)

My tooltip was in Deschaan and Cyrodill the same: Damage 3484 and heal 27%.

This is so incomprehendible...... that I do not speculate what the coding crew did perhaps wrong.... or what intentions where glitched... or not well enough thought through....

No clue at all.... but i just guesss... that this outcome was not intended... please ZOS say something about this :-)

This isnt even double reduced because a cyrodiil's mob doesnt have the damage reduction... if you test it on a player who got the same spell res than this imperial sergeant, it will hit for 1.4k and heal for 350...

hrothbern

@Erondil

Thanks for THE explanation

Xeniph

Erondil wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

I did test Funnel Health just now in PTS (NB, Vet 14, Mag Stat at 25k, no spell damage, no buffs-debuffs)
DESHAAN: My damage against Giant Snake in Ghost Snake Vale was 3164 and the heal 1102 (no crit damage, no crit heal)
CYRODIIL: My damage against Imperial Sergeant was 2933 and the heal was 544 (no crit damage, no crit heal)

My tooltip was in Deschaan and Cyrodill the same: Damage 3484 and heal 27%.

This is so incomprehendible...... that I do not speculate what the coding crew did perhaps wrong.... or what intentions where glitched... or not well enough thought through....

No clue at all.... but i just guesss... that this outcome was not intended... please ZOS say something about this :-)

This isnt even double reduced because a cyrodiil's mob doesnt have the damage reduction... if you test it on a player who got the same spell res than this imperial sergeant, it will hit for 1.4k and heal for 350...

Not only that, with 2400 spell power the health return on a blocking target is 7. LOL

Draehl

lathbury wrote: »

this unless there are changes nb healers are no longer a thing

I've been an off-healer since launch. Rapid Regen and Ward. It won't keep someone up against focus fire, but can turn the tide of a close fight and temporarily save someone from death.

EDIT: Any yes, this general issue really needs to be looked at so the penalty doesn't apply twice.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please read this thread!

david.haypreub18_ESO

Etaniel wrote: »

I wouldn't call it a bug, I'd call it a design failure.
It's precisely why they should have tweaked skills individually instead of applying a big fat 30% nerf to everything.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Xexpo

I have a well thought out response disguised as a bump.

Rune_Relic

lmao.

Mitigation uses stamina ... DPS uses stamina
Mitigation uses magicka ... DPS uses magicka

That's the problem.
You will never balance the game as you cant isolate them and ZOS cant resist combining them.
The players wont sacrifice the ability to be both at the same time.

Magicka for scaling Spell Damage and resource
Stamina for scaling weapon damage and resource
Health for scaling mitigation and healing and resource.
Now try shield stacking and DPS, perma blocking and DPS or infinte resources at the same time.

Nothing else will fix it and its too much for ZOS to fix.
I'm out.

Erondil

Rune_Relic wrote: »

lmao.

Mitigation uses stamina ... DPS uses stamina
Mitigation uses magicka ... DPS uses magicka

That's the problem.
You will never balance the game as you cant isolate them and ZOS cant resist combining them.
The players wont sacrifice the ability to be both at the same time.

Magicka for scaling Spell Damage and resource
Stamina for scaling weapon damage and resource
Health for scaling mitigation and healing and resource.
Now try shield stacking and DPS, perma blocking and DPS or infinte resources at the same time.

Nothing else will fix it and its too much for ZOS to fix.
I'm out.

Did you read the OP lol

Morvul

Erondil wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

I did test Funnel Health just now in PTS (NB, Vet 14, Mag Stat at 25k, no spell damage, no buffs-debuffs)
DESHAAN: My damage against Giant Snake in Ghost Snake Vale was 3164 and the heal 1102 (no crit damage, no crit heal)
CYRODIIL: My damage against Imperial Sergeant was 2933 and the heal was 544 (no crit damage, no crit heal)

My tooltip was in Deschaan and Cyrodill the same: Damage 3484 and heal 27%.

This is so incomprehendible...... that I do not speculate what the coding crew did perhaps wrong.... or what intentions where glitched... or not well enough thought through....

No clue at all.... but i just guesss... that this outcome was not intended... please ZOS say something about this :-)

This isnt even double reduced because a cyrodiil's mob doesnt have the damage reduction... if you test it on a player who got the same spell res than this imperial sergeant, it will hit for 1.4k and heal for 350...

irony alert:
you just (correctly) told someone that they did not even see the double-penalty in their example - and promptly forgot about the double penalty in your own example

if funnel health hits for 3000 in pve land, it heals for 3000*0.27=810 (before any champion points which boost healing)
if the same 3k funnel health hits a PvE mob in cyrodiil, it only heals for 3000*0.27*0.5= 405

but, if the same 3k funnel health is used against a player in cyrodiil, it only hits for 3000*0.5=1500
therefore the same 3k base funnel health used against a player only heals for 3000*0,5*0,27*0,5= 203

...

epic healz!