SkylarkAU wrote: »

You guys kinda forget that the classic perma block classes (DK, Temp) both have excellent heal/sustain abilities even without block. Sorcs (the classic shield class) don't..

It's funny how qq and logic don't usually mix.

And sorcs kinda forget that they still slot a better heal than tempars and DKs get

As a sorc, I just want to say that this nerf (as well as the roll dodge nerf) is bad for us also. It arguably impacts us more, because our stsmina resource pool and regeneration is considerably smaller than that of your traditional stamina / tank build. Any good sorc (or mana user, but I say sorcs because this thread is most relevant to that class...) will be against this change as much as you are - so looking to punish us because of ZOS' heavy handed nerf is not exactly fair. We should be looking at ways we can improve game balance without the ridiculous nerfs to defence. Further nerfs to defensive abilities is a terrible idea.

well this discussion is going well ^_^

Draehl wrote: »

The core issue is that regen is too high in PvP. Period. Not while shields/heals are being spammed. Not NBs spamming shadow cloak. Not while tanks are blocking. OP CC skills being used constantly. Medium builds dodging, etc. All these high cost skills/effects are still easily spammable with little regard given to efficiency or intelligent use. The actual strength of these effects are not the problem, their sustainability is.

Battle Spirit needs to be reduce all in-combat regen AND resource return (potion, power attacks, siphoning attacks, etc) by 30-50%

This would execute all players who don't build for regen. They barely have any regen now and would be dead if they did what you suggested. Reducing the strenght of regen drinks and certain... passives could help.

Dracane wrote: »

Draehl wrote: »

The core issue is that regen is too high in PvP. Period. Not while shields/heals are being spammed. Not NBs spamming shadow cloak. Not while tanks are blocking. OP CC skills being used constantly. Medium builds dodging, etc. All these high cost skills/effects are still easily spammable with little regard given to efficiency or intelligent use. The actual strength of these effects are not the problem, their sustainability is.

Battle Spirit needs to be reduce all in-combat regen AND resource return (potion, power attacks, siphoning attacks, etc) by 30-50%

This would execute all players who don't build for regen. They barely have any regen now and would be dead if they did what you suggested. Reducing the strenght of regen drinks and certain... passives could help.

TBH glass cannon (or dagger, as it were) builds I feel have more regen than they probably should. Sorcs & NBs are probably the worst offenders here, but stacking spell/weapon damage at the expense of everything else they still have much more longevity than such a focused character should. That's why the damage penalty with 2.1 had to be increased.

It would be far more appropriate to roll back many of the 2.1 changes (dodge, block, ball lightning, battle spirit affecting shields, etc.) and instead hit the core issue of regen- making players actually think not just about whether a skill might benefit them at a given moment, but rather if it benefits them enough to warrant the resource cost... It's not such a pill to swallow that burst builds can kill people so quickly at least with the knowledge that they're playing a one trick pony of a build that is OOM/OOS and can't carry on at full strength with the fight that follows. There would be a legit tradeoff for playing a one-dimensional burst build- sacrificing regen/cost reduction enchants, efficient skills, etc.

olsborg wrote: »

The resource game should make a comeback, like it was in 1.2 etc. If you managed your resources best, you won.

It shouldn't swing too far in either direction. Just that different playstyles have legit strengths and weaknesses. Currently having low resource regen isn't a true weakness for anyone. Dedicated burst builds should be strong, but with the caveat that if you fail to blow up your target you should be at a distinct disadvantage for the fight that follows. Likewise, slotting efficienct skills or building for sustain should also be viable in that you may continue on much longer than the burst build, but still not indefinitely.

Draehl wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

The resource game should make a comeback, like it was in 1.2 etc. If you managed your resources best, you won.

It shouldn't swing too far in either direction. Just that difference playstyles have legit strengths and weaknesses. Currently having low resource regen isn't a legit weakness for anyone.

It is a weakness. I'm running a low regen build (not on purpose, it's just a result) and I run out of ressources very fast and I'm not wasting my Magicka, it still happens because recasting shields eats up my Magicka.

It's not that I'm unexperienced, I can manage it quite well most of the time. But in a real scenario, a sustained build will always outsustain me. Regen Builds win in the end if played right, I've seen it often when I was in a 1v1 guild. What do you have to fear, if you never run out of ressources ? Nothing, only mistakes will kill you and we all know, that with the recent update, mistakes won't kill you anymore thanks to the damage reduction.

Regen builds rule

Dracane wrote: »

Draehl wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

The resource game should make a comeback, like it was in 1.2 etc. If you managed your resources best, you won.

It shouldn't swing too far in either direction. Just that difference playstyles have legit strengths and weaknesses. Currently having low resource regen isn't a legit weakness for anyone.

What do you have to fear, if you never run out of ressources ? Nothing, only mistakes will kill you and we all know, that with the recent update, mistakes won't kill you anymore thanks to the damage reduction.

Right, and what I'm saying is let the burst builds continue like they are on live, but with everyone having lower regen bursty builds would ideally run out very quickly, with regen builds still eventually running out. I realize that is much easier said than done, but it's what is making heals/shields still so much stronger on PTS- that "mistake" factor you mention is no longer there, and it should be to make the game exciting.

It's really a tricky proposition to get burst damage, sustained damage, healers, hybrids, and tanks all in a good spot at the same time. I don't blame ZOS for not getting it right- I only blame them for not turning more "knobs" (they already have access to but are not utilizing) in order to properly tune their game. For the record I believe all serious MMOs needs an economist in charge of big picture balance philosophies such as the current topic- most devs are former programmers/artists that while fine in most cases probably aren't best suited to this particular portion of game balance.

I would say as a light taste of what blocking has been dealt the following.

when you activate any damage shield your magicka tick is reset to 2 seconds.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Blazing Shield used to be that way. 0 magicka regeneration while the shield was active. Nobody used it because it was such a harsh penalty. I

Some will claim that it could be used as a counter to an incoming burst, but the fact is it was simply better to just block that one big hit and continue on your way.

I would support shields becoming far more expensive, so stacking them would be an expensive endeavor, but 0 magicka regeneration will just make them useless, and essentially a death sentence upon cast.

This change is good for the long term health of the game. People will just have to change their ways of thinking about their play style.

Or just play a game with CD's instead of one with weird side-rules and conditions that are unintuitive and convoluted.

I think ZoS has done a terrible job of balancing magicka/stamina costs in relation to the strength of a skill. They may want to visit that area first before throwing in more cockeyed rule sets.

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

used to be the case with blazing shield. ppl were still using it.

You and I remember differently.

I am sure there were some people still using it. But most did not. And the consensus was that the lack of regen while it was up made it extremely cumbersome to use.

nordsavage wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/201148/an-idea-on-blocking-for-staff-wielders#latest Here is a solution that would give staff users a taste of what stamina builds face.

Actually this is very interesting..