@ZOS: Argonians Remain Least Competitive Race - Consolidated Arguments and Suggestions

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

First, thank you for listening to players after the initial Update 2.1 change to Argonians. It was very gratifying knowing you all were listening. However, upon further discussion the proposed tweaks still leave Argonians at the bottom of the list in terms of balance among other racial passives. Given that Argonians were passed over in 1.6 when other races received changes (in fact, the change to Argonians' potion effectiveness passive is still not in the patch notes to this day) and were negatively impacted in several ways by larger game changes in the same update, players feel like this is the best, if not the only, time to push for making our scaly brothers and sisters actually stand on even footing with other races' passive abilities. Here are the three main arguments (the same points we've been discussing for months) as to why Argonians will remain the least competitive race even with the new tweaks in this update:

Argonians are the only race to have a passive tied to a large global cooldown and your gold, both of which drastically limit usefulness of the passive. This used to be worth it when we could get the cooldown to 15-20 seconds and could increase the effectiveness of all potion effects by 15-45% depending on stacking with NB's old Catalyst passive, but not any more since Update 1.6.
With softcaps gone, +stat, +regen, +damage, and cost reduction are the most powerful racial passives in the game because they can stack directly on top of gear bonuses and Champion constellations, and provide multiple benefits at once (eg increasing DPS/HPS, damage shield scaling, and available resources).
Argonians' passives are highly situational, which greatly decreases their utility and value compared to passives that are "on" all the time and benefit any kind of encounter. This is itself not a bad thing, but the values for such passives currently do not reflect this, seemingly equating "always on" passives with those that only work in given situations or are limited by cooldowns and gold. In other words, the situational passives need higher values or other related bonuses if they are to really matter in the very specific encounters that they are meant to help with.

For your easy perusing, here is a compiled list of common suggestions on how to make Argonians more competitive with races that have objectively better passives while maintain the race's "theme" you all mentioned in the last ESO Live (note this is just a list of possibilities, not saying all of these should be implemented):

Given the large potion cooldown/gold cost and the fact that the regen effect from a potion is not as important as the initial stat replenish, the % of stat restored from a potion needs to be higher still.
In addition to restoring stats on potion use, also buff max stats by X% for the duration of the potion.
In addition to restoring stats on potion use, also include a passive that decreases potion cooldown by 5/10/15 seconds (which could then stack with Potion Speed jewelry enchants).
Further increase bonus to max health up to 9% to be on par with other races, and generally help close the gap between the two most powerful races (Imperial and Altmer) and all the others.
Further increase the amount of healing received, since it is undervalued compared to +max health, the only racial that is nerfed just by entering cyrodiil/IC, and offers less healing power than Imperials' Red Diamond passive.
Make the passive to healing received also count toward healing given.
Increase value of Poison/Disease resistance passive.
Make Disease resistance apply directly to disease abilities (eg Venom Arrow), lessening their effect by a flat amount (including meatbag catapults).
On top of swim speed bonus, allow Argonians to maintain stealth while swimming.

In addition to the above suggestions, here is a list of ideas for more dramatic changes to Argonian racials:

Replace Poison/Disease resistance with Physical and Spell Resistance
An entirely new racial passive system where players can select from various lore-based passives for their chosen race that benefit their desired playstyle

Remove potion passive in favor of several alternatives, such as:

Increase max magicka and stamina
Increase damage of DoT effects (bleed, magic, poison, etc)
A decent instant heal or HoT effect that activates at low health
A damage shield or mitigation bonus that activates at low health
Increase movement speed while stealthed.
Increased regeneration of all stats while stealthed
Increase attack damage from stealth.

Tonnopesce · August 2015

They will ignore this thread as usual...

Great job btw #ArgoniansNeedLove not just lusty maids!

Night-claw · August 2015

put my name on that list

vortexman11 · August 2015

Instead of 9% health I'd give them 5% health and 5% magicka.

I just wanted to say a quick thing on racial passives that has always baffled me.

Bretons have Light Armour Affinity, and they have passives that aid in the use of magicka
Orcs have Heavy Armour Affinity, and they have passives that aid in tanking
Imperials have Shield Affinity, and they have passives that aid in tanking
Altmer have Destruction Talent, and they have passives that aid with Magicka DPS
Bosmer have Archery Expertise, and they have passives that aid in stamina regen and stealth
Khajiit have Medium Armour Expertise, and they have passives that aid in stealth crit and stealthing
Redguards have Shield Affinity, and they have passives that aid in tanking
Dunmer have Ambidexterity for dual wielding and passives that give both stamina and magicka (dual wield gives spell dmg and weapon dmg)

AND THEN

Nords have Two Handed Weapon Expertise and no passives that aid in stamina, or stamina regeneration
Argonians have Restoration Expertise but no passives that help in healing others or magicka regen

#Logic

Dekkameron · August 2015

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*deep breath*

david.haypreub18_ESO · August 2015

Great post OP. Sadly, it will most likely be ignored.

No matter how rational the arguments are, ZOS for some reason just persists in not recognizing that certain races (Argonian) and classes (Templar) are not fine and need help.

Jar_Ek · August 2015

@ThatNeonZebraAgain Nice compilation. Hopefully zos will take note.

As for making bits, I have come to a preferred solution based on zos statement that they are sticking to their passives with respect to theme. That is that drinking a potion provides 8% attribute return immediately and an 8% increase to the attribute maximums for the duration of the potion (maybe exception of health). This makes potions very effective for Argonian characters in providing a slight damage boost and allows them to be pre-drunk to get the bonuses. I think it is broadly acceptable as it would have a 45s cool down. Naturally the exact %ages would probably need tinkering with, but I believe it would make the potion passive viable.

tinythinker · August 2015

First, I ask that community managers or community reps reading please pass on thanks to Wrobel and his team for listening to feedback and making positive changes to Argonians for Update 2.1. They are very much appreciated!

Second, it is doubtful that anything from the summary of changes will be implemented until the bigger race overhaul, but for what it's worth:

I love swim speed. Each of my many suggestions over the past year plus always keep it. Please keep it. It's a nice lore thing.
No direct increase to magicka/stamina pools please, but do see this idea about adding more passives which can be used a la cart (mentioned above in the original post) and include big boosts to magicka/stamina regen and increased movement speed while stealthed. Maybe they could be bigger since they are situational. Let's give that lore friendly association with being stealthy a chance in the game.
Please keep the health/healing focus, but buff the numbers a bit more and maybe add a health regen bonus to Rapid Mending, also shown in that link.
OK, well, I would keep adding stuff, I'll just let people click and read the link to see what I think. Much simpler. And if you follow Argonian racial passive discussions on the forums, you are likely sick of reading what I think

Jar_Ek · August 2015

Never sick of reading what you think @tinythinker ... I may not agree but certainly not tired of seeing thoughtful ideas for improving / balanced ing racial passives.

tinythinker · August 2015

Oh, and I did forget the actual new thing that was supposed to be on my list above: add new skills/skill lines or modify a few existing skills (active and passive) to work off of max health. I know there used to be a passive for resto staff that did that that was replaced, and the resto skill Ward (Healing, Ally) along with the Templar's Sun Shield are stronger the more health you have. That would give higher health for Argonians more of an impact. Stam and magicka count for defense and damage, so give the health attribute a bit more value. Not way more, but something decent.

So, candidates folks? I'll get it rolling by tossing out a few in pure spitball/off the top of my head form (which likely need much tweaking)...

Backlash (templar): "Summon an expanding beam of pure sunlight to doom an enemy, storing all damage taken for 6 seconds and releasing it with a [33 / 34 / 35 / 36]% increase. Base Maximum damage of 460 scales with Max Health of caster."
Healing Ritual (templar): "Focus your spiritual devotion to heal yourself and nearby allies for [200 / 201 / 202 / 203] plus 10% of caster's Max Health. You receive 30% additional healing."
Inferno (dragonknight): "Activate an aura of flames, granting Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical by 10%. The aura also launches a fireball at the nearest enemy every [6 / 5.7 / 5.4 / 5] seconds, dealing color=purple][i]20%? 25%? of caster's Max Health as[/i][/color Flame Damage over 6 seconds.

Sloppy I know, but the examples are not meant to be great just to get the idea going.

Ans thanks @Jar_Ek. I am not 100% against boosting magicka or stam, just think it would be cool to make it unique for Argonians (hence the suggestion for a 20% regen boost for both, or maybe higher, when stealthed).

Stinkur · August 2015

shameless bump as I play an Argonian Templar as main healer in pvp and dps at times. (but wish I would have chose dark elf or something else more beneficial)

Stalwart385 · August 2015

I though it was elder scolls tradition to have argonians as the weakest race. =P

Night-claw · August 2015

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I though it was elder scolls tradition to have argonians as the weakest race. =P

I do not find this funny

Stalwart385 · August 2015

Night-claw wrote: »

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I though it was elder scolls tradition to have argonians as the weakest race. =P

I do not find this funny

Sorry had too lol, but I empathize.

Junkogen · August 2015

This is tremendous! Thanks @ThatNeonZebraAgain ! That's a great summary of our grievances. You're a true warrior for the cause. Hopefully the devs will hear our pleas.

The potion passive is ridiculous. Just give us the straight stat regen or a max stat increase like magicka or stamina. The developers forget that abilities don't always activate upon pushing the keys. Lag happens. Delay happens. No other race has to worry about popping a consumable or something similar to keep a passive active.

Yeah, they should redesign the passives. I just think that's the only real way to fix them.

Junkogen · August 2015

Stalwart385 wrote: »

I though it was elder scolls tradition to have argonians as the weakest race. =P

"You die! You go to hell and you die!"

VincentBlanquin · August 2015

problem is, devs stated directly at last liveshow, they want to have argonian passives as they are now. and ask for stop bitching about them (of sort)

Jar_Ek · August 2015

Oh well if the devs say they are fine, then I guess we'll all have to believe them...

Or maybe inform them they are mistaken and they need to rethink.
I think I'll do the latter.

tinythinker · August 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Oh well if the devs say they are fine, then I guess we'll all have to believe them...

/close thread

Jar_Ek · August 2015

Lol, don't even joke about it.

MorHawk · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

First, thank you for listening to players

Couldn't get any further with a straight face. They drop a token gesture that still leaves Argos at the bottom of the pile, and that counts as listening? Then it counts as exercise when I sit up to get out of bed.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · August 2015

MorHawk wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

First, thank you for listening to players

Couldn't get any further with a straight face. They drop a token gesture that still leaves Argos at the bottom of the pile, and that counts as listening? Then it counts as exercise when I sit up to get out of bed.

You're not wrong, but it's better than the complete snub they got in 1.6, and lack of responses received from the myriad threads about Argonians in the OP.

Nifty2g · August 2015

Lore wise they should have made Argonians Thieves and Ranged Stamina users. No idea why they put some healing and potions for them, they should have done

Bow Expertise: Increase experience gained with Bows
Light Fingers: Increases your chances of successfully pickpocketing by x% and increases your chances of forcing locks by x%
Adrenaline Rush: Increases your Stamina Regeneration while in combat by x%
Shadowscale: increases your damage with bows by x%

Junkogen · August 2015

One of the main things working against us is that Argonians are unique and look cool. If they put these kinds of passives on a human race no one would play them.

Junkogen · August 2015

Also, I don't know, ladies and gents...I just don't think the devs give a crap. They keep tweaking and changing class abilities. Maybe one day I'll log on and the proud Argonian people will have the passives they deserve.

Until then, I feel like I should join the mob and reroll an Imperial.

Is this surrender? Defeat...

MorHawk · August 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

First, thank you for listening to players

Couldn't get any further with a straight face. They drop a token gesture that still leaves Argos at the bottom of the pile, and that counts as listening? Then it counts as exercise when I sit up to get out of bed.

You're not wrong, but it's better than the complete snub they got in 1.6, and lack of responses received from the myriad threads about Argonians in the OP.

That's like the logic I just saw that we should be grateful for Rich's deal where he posts '/lurk' in threads. This isn't Dickensian London, and we ain't Oliver. Let's try and stop saying thanks for gruel.

Junkogen · August 2015

MorHawk wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

MorHawk wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

First, thank you for listening to players

Couldn't get any further with a straight face. They drop a token gesture that still leaves Argos at the bottom of the pile, and that counts as listening? Then it counts as exercise when I sit up to get out of bed.

You're not wrong, but it's better than the complete snub they got in 1.6, and lack of responses received from the myriad threads about Argonians in the OP.

That's like the logic I just saw that we should be grateful for Rich's deal where he posts '/lurk' in threads. This isn't Dickensian London, and we ain't Oliver. Let's try and stop saying thanks for gruel.

You're right. It's like what William Wallace said in Braveheart, we're so busy squabbling over the scraps at the developers' table that we've missed our Sithis-given right to something better.

If only we could lay siege to ZOS and correct this injustice.

Junkogen · August 2015

Maybe we should try to get some ESO celebrity support to strengthen our cause.

@Deltia and @Sypher,

Will you support our campaign or at least weigh in on our cause? Maybe they'll listen to you guys. They can't say that you guys don't know what you're talking about when it comes to builds.

Junkogen · August 2015

@omfgitsbatman

You belong in this fight, sir.

omfgitsbatman · August 2015

@Junkogen
Thank you for alerting me to this post

@ThatNeonZebraAgain
Very well thought out and crafted post. You have echoed almost every single one of my thoughts.

Some things I would like to add:
People build their characters around the racial passives quite frequently. As large a change as 1.6 had on the racial passives warrants a race change either free or paid. It is completely unfair to have a change as big as 1.6 was without offering a race change.

Let's tell a story of character:
For the sake of simplicity, we'll call this character Ticktick. Ticktick was brought into Tamriel with a purpose. That purpose was to be way different than the average cookie cutter character, but be insanely effective at being different. Ticktick was the Master of everything related to the skill of Alchemy. Ticktick PASSIVELY aquired a great set of abilities in alchemy that would remain in pieces for the rest of the citizens in Tamriel. Ticktick even enchanted his magickal jewelery to aid in his alchemy specific abilities. Ticktick was very pleased with how well his alchemy skills tied into all of the combat skills he was learning in his nightblade training.
One tragic day, everything changed. The earth shook and something large fell on Ticktick's head. Ticktick's thoughts all became jumbled. He still had a vast array of Alchemy skills, but they just didn't seem to work together anymore. Each potion that he made seemed to be less effective than it once was at the purpose he intended it for. Each potion did seem to give him a few other positive effects though, but it seemed like they never had anything to do with what he meant to get out of the potion.
This frustrated Ticktick to no end. Ticktick eventually gave up alchemy and picked up the art of philosophy. Ticktick wakes up every morning and contemplates these questions: "Why are Argonians freed from slavery if we're still going to be treated like the lowest of the low? Why was I born Argonian? Wouldn't things be easier if I were a Breton?"

In comparison to the other races Argonian passives are now useless for all roles except for tanks. This is even stretching it a bit compared to how good races like Imperial have it.
There are a ton of ways that the passives could be changed to improve the racials -most of which were covered by OP. The 2% to the potion passive does not even come close to making Argonian a viable race to chose.
My favorite idea is to make the healing recieved into healing done/recieved.

omfgitsbatman · August 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

Instead of 9% health I'd give them 5% health and 5% magicka.

I just wanted to say a quick thing on racial passives that has always baffled me.

Bretons have Light Armour Affinity, and they have passives that aid in the use of magicka
Orcs have Heavy Armour Affinity, and they have passives that aid in tanking
Imperials have Shield Affinity, and they have passives that aid in tanking
Altmer have Destruction Talent, and they have passives that aid with Magicka DPS
Bosmer have Archery Expertise, and they have passives that aid in stamina regen and stealth
Khajiit have Medium Armour Expertise, and they have passives that aid in stealth crit and stealthing
Redguards have Shield Affinity, and they have passives that aid in tanking
Dunmer have Ambidexterity for dual wielding and passives that give both stamina and magicka (dual wield gives spell dmg and weapon dmg)

AND THEN

Nords have Two Handed Weapon Expertise and no passives that aid in stamina, or stamina regeneration
Argonians have Restoration Expertise but no passives that help in healing others or magicka regen

#Logic

Also... This ^