Do you agree with the ZoS putting a Cap on Champion Points per DLC?

Korah_Eaglecry · August 2015

Caspur wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Caspur wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

We don't need an elite class off grinders 2x as powerful. Folks can get more powerful with gear and skill already

Yes but, you can only get to a certain point before you get cut off and can no longer get any better. And at that point every other player can catch up to you and then you're just another ordinary player and there's nothing special about you.

What should be special about you should be you're a better player.

It's not possible to be a better player when someone else has:

1. You're exact same gear
2. Are at your exact same level
3. Same Glyphs
4. Same abilities

And this is exactly what happens with CAPS. Most top players have cookie cutter builds that they copied from Youtube videos and in these videos they tell you exactly what gear to use with what glyphs to use and what abilities to use. So you and 99% of other max level players are running around and the only difference is the class that you're using.

How are you supposed to stand out or be a better player when you're a DK and the 10 other DKs running next to you are all exact duplicates. More often than not it comes down to luck with CAPS.

If you think the top players are the ones copying and pasting builds. Then its you that is completely out of touch.

The Top Players in this game are the ones making these builds. Theyre the ones pioneering what works and what doesnt. To pretend as if they simply took the easy way to the top while you somehow struggle is disengenious. Everyone Ive ever ran into rushing to the top, exploiting bugs and copying builds are those casuals who cant spend 8 hours a day in the game. Not the other way around.

Not everyone is exploiting. Not everyone is abusing the game. Youre just green with envy.

If a player puts in the time he should be rewarded for it. This cap is nothing but an attempt to punish anyone that isnt playing in short bursts. Its their time and you should have absolutely ZERO influence on how they are affected by that time in game.

Soulshine · August 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

lance_lindbergub17_ESO wrote: »

CP is primarily a problem for PVP. There's a much easier solution than capping it for everyone, give PVP players a choice, by making a campaign that uses CP, and one that does not. Simple.

If I want CP points to count in PVP , I join the campaign that incorporates CP.
If I don't want CP points involved in PVP, I join the campaign that ignores them.

CP has an (smaller) impact on PVE. Instead of capping it for everyone, give PVE players a choice, to use CP/not for ranked content.

If I want to run VDSA using CP, I choose to do so and am ranked with others using CP
If I want to run VDSA without CP, I choose to do so, and am ranked with others ignoring CP

CP does NOT "primarily" affect PvP. It impacts every aspect of play and completely trivializes it to the point of making it irrelevant to the Godmode options it renders for players. You put in a system which allows for essentially infinite progression into all possible passives and then sit back and watch PvE challenge go completely out the window (already happened) and class balance - such as it was anyway even before CP... - totally irrelevant.

The system design at core was flawed from the get go and is not conducive to meaningful choices let alone in harmony with that concept, and in fact is a departure from it in the wost way. Considering the massive litany of rationlizations for the 5 skill action bar alone, you would think someone on the dev team would have realized that allowing for everything to get maxed for every stat, would not be a smart let alone sustainable system in an MMO.

Then the problem is not CP but lack of content scaled up to people with that much CP?

Have you ever thought that people who grinded CP might enjoy the fact that now everything is easy? Have you thought they might have done this on purpose? That they like it when their character gets stronger?

Have you ever played with a progression raiding guild? Have you ever played with a dedicated hardcore PvP guild? Have you ever thought that those people do NOT enjoying facerolling content by just lamblasting past all mechanics because the DPS, shields, blocking, etc. is so over the top? There have already been umpteen threads posted about this as far back as the earliest rounds of PTS testing of CP system.

We are also not talking about getting "stronger" here. The CP system allows for ALL stats to be completly maxed out and all possible combat passives as well -- regardless of your build, your role, or yoour skill at playing.

Players in every single MMO I have ever played also always outpace the rate at which content is delivered. You cannot put in a system like this one as just say the solution is that well we just need to have more content scaled up.

(Cliff notes/tl;dr section at the end of this post.)

I'm in a progression raiding guild now, and have played with dedicated hardcore PvP guilds, both in ESO and other games. Hoping soon to join up with a hardcore PvP one (to be continued... ) again here.

Here's the interesting thing about allowing for character strength to grow beyond the content: limit it enough so that it isn't overwhelmingly powerful to where the content is like sleepwalking, and it doesn't make it "easier" or trivialize it. It alters it. Some of the best leaderboard-scoring strategies, lately, have involved leveraging those points to do complete the Trials/Veteran Dragonstar Arena, while still killing everything, that would be difficult or impossible otherwise including concepts like split groups even mid-pull. This doesn't result in it being easier... but rather, different, and on the edge cases where it's only just above the mark of being practically possible, it actually becomes harder to pull off.

@MaximusDargo additionally brought up a pretty good point, as far as individual progression. I've posted more than a bit before, about the champion system, its power gap potential (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion), and leveling speeds between different game activities. One of the reasons I basically had stopped posting about PVP and PVE XP parity even in a thread directed at @ZOS_BrianWheeler, was that I realized something: "Maybe those mobs, in the massive Imperial City sewers I'd seen @Dominoid's datamined maps of, provide good XP, enough so that it's worth the risk to kill them for currency as well as leveling, with the risk of PVP attackers and mixing up the action in gameplay! That might be why they aren't mentioning much about really and definitely looking into raising the XP from player kills directly?"

I think that turned out to be the case! The sewers mobs I've been killing packs of so far, give around 1255 champion XP/regular XP without enlightenment, when not subscribed to ESO Plus but using a crafted Psijic Ambrosia drink on the Imperial City 2.1 PTS. Is that going to be enough to bridge the parity gap? Not necessarily. But, it may bring it close enough along with the whole idea of a rolling cap average as @Gidorick's been advocating for, that it overall becomes a non-issue in the practical sense when playing. Hop in a duo or trio and rampage through which makes the killing much easier and more reliable along with giving you better odds when enemy players inevitably jump on you to go for a fight, and it's a very fun & varied source of XP gain, Tel Var stones, and AP!

CLIFF NOTES: So basically, to sum up my mini-wall of text here, I'm thinking that:
-The rolling cap average idea (taking into account server processing load, it would have its effect almost entirely the same way by doing it once a day at an off-peak time, for the boost) that scales based on your current champion rank vs. the top ten or so percent's, granting you more Enlightenment on your daily tick based upon how big the difference is (remember, Enlightenment causes you to earn champion points at quadruple the speed you do when you aren't Enlightened).
-The Imperial City may have already hit the answer, if that were implemented, as far as making up the rest of the parity gap in PVE/PVP. I'm sure most people can relate: if you have Enlightenment, it really doesn't feel like it takes long to grab a champion level. Therefore, even in PVE activity that doesn't give as much insane XP as solely focusing on your earnings per hour, you still would be progressing at a nice rate then.

Well that's one opinion - long winded as usual.

I dont agree with CPs caps as a solution to the problem which the CP system has created in an already problem plagued leveling system at end game.

Temporarily capping stats by DLCs is just a band aid on a bigger issue few are willing to look at square in the face. The game was already a sleepwalk before CPs let alone now, and no amount of delays in people still being able to acquire all of them will change it. Allowing for all possible combat passives from the CP system allocation to be applied to a single build is the issue.

Well.... no, it's not. Leaderboard Trials and VDSA runs are anything but a sleepwalk, and like I said, it does open up additional strategies that result in a rolling difficulty increase in some ways, too. For solo PVE content, or daily undaunted gold key dungeons? Sure, I wouldn't disagree that they're pretty easy for a lot of people, although they likewise aren't for some as well.

The issue of Champion Ranks not ultimately allowing for customization due to eventually earning all of them, is an idea I'm already planning to speak of a solution for soon, which I hope will be pretty popular .

EDIT: Added spoiler tags around the quote, which ended up being way too big .

Again don't agree. vDSA is not difficult. Neither are trials. They are extremely simplistic, scaled down versions of a few elements from full blown raids from other games and do not in anyway provide for complex game play like the kind some of us are used to engaging.

As for your "idea" - many of us have already argued about this a year ago before this system went live, since we could see it coming to the point exactly where it is right now, including this supposedly "new" idea of theirs to season cap CPs. Its a joke.

Waffennacht · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

There are no need for caps.

Ive been PvP ing a lot to see what the veterans can do.

Im lvl 33 faced DK werewolf lvl V2, he attacked me while I was on horseback and after a few minutes of battle he ran off. Knowing he went for an advantage I disengaged and left.

Ran into a V12 i believe NB and after another timely battle he lay dead.

Then came a V9 sorceror, Im sure I would have killed him in 1v1 but half way through a group of allies came and killed him.

I was then fighting a V 12 DK and was about to kill him then an enemy archer came to his aid and killed me.

My opinion is that of course levels matter but to say you will automatically lose to these higher players is a mistake. Leave the game be I say

Jando · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

All of the effort to design, maintain, and calibrate catch-up for a never ending champion system with a seasonal cap is not worth it. It was ill conceived from the start.

The whole thing would be so much easier, more fun, and fair if they would throw out this concept of an endless system.

Oh and i disagree that the whole point of the system was to be never ending to begin with. The point of the system was to replace the Veteran System with something that was fun, engaging, and not a grind. What they came up with, and even adding seasonal caps, does not fix it.

In my opinion the answer has always been to make it a finite, closed system that's fast, powerful, and exciting.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/202989/seasonal-caps-are-not-the-best-option-to-fix-champion-system#latest

wrathofrraath · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

All that grind do not glitter,
Not all those who quest are lost;
The subs that are strong do not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the cap a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be balance that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

joshisanonymous · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

There either needs to be a cap or they need to not be account wide. Having no cap and making them account wide leads to a situation where new players will literally never be able to catch up to older players unless those older players simple stop playing for like a year.

The_Sadist · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

I'm going to say yes, but that's mostly because I'm selfish as I'm forced to take a month or two off every so often due to real life commitments and upon returning feel very discouraged at seeing how far I've lagged behind. However, I don't feel those who have already exceeded the intended limit should have their champion points temporarily reduced sort of thing. Furthermore, this would mean content needs to be pumped out at a regular pace, which is never a bad thing.

Rex-Umbra · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

I also believe this poll is not accurate as casual players who this favors the most do not use the forums.

washlov · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

poor CP farmers there have to be a cap, or something else, or the game will slowly die

THINK!!!!!

Ffastyl · August 2015

Kinda, If you can still earn CP even-though you wont be able to always to use all of them.

I want to be able to progress, to work for something at all times. Installing a cap would aid the balance issues, but if it prevents continual progression I will have nothing to strive for once I reach the apex.
If I can continually earn CP but be unable to allocate them until the cap is raised, I will be fine with that. I can still progress.
The power up can wait.

J2JMC · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

Waffennacht wrote: »

There are no need for caps.

Ive been PvP ing a lot to see what the veterans can do.

Im lvl 33 faced DK werewolf lvl V2, he attacked me while I was on horseback and after a few minutes of battle he ran off. Knowing he went for an advantage I disengaged and left.

Ran into a V12 i believe NB and after another timely battle he lay dead.

Then came a V9 sorceror, Im sure I would have killed him in 1v1 but half way through a group of allies came and killed him.

I was then fighting a V 12 DK and was about to kill him then an enemy archer came to his aid and killed me.

My opinion is that of course levels matter but to say you will automatically lose to these higher players is a mistake. Leave the game be I say

Not for nothing, that v9 sorc would've one shot you with crystal frags if you weren't battle leveled. So to downplay leveling is a mistake when you were already artificially leveled. My level 49 character was objectively stronger than my vet 1 character.

Anyway, the issue I see with cp is the amount of resource management it took away from the game. The amount of damage a person can do is irrelevant if you can drain their resources. If you design a build around maintaining resources and you use it properly, you definitely deserve infinite resources. However, being able to go for really high damage knowing you can collect resource management afterwards for free is an issue. The same applies vice versa of course. I'm curious as to what the game would be like with no cp's in any of the trees that provide resource regeneration or cost reduction.* I'd like to see if some of these recent changes (dodge roll, blocking, be nerf) would even occur without the influence of cp.

*I'm aware there was a point in time when the game had no cps but, but a lot of changes were implemented alongside the cp system. To be clear, I would like to see the game in it's current state without any cps that influence resource regeneration or cost reduction. Basically removing the entire tower and lover trees, tumbling, shade, and block expertise.

tplink3r1 · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

btw, im still at 185 CP.

Hypertionb14_ESO · August 2015

Kinda, If you can still earn CP even-though you wont be able to always to use all of them.

i have played plenty of games with limited "minor boosting" systems beyond inital leveling, one of which was also a MMO.

all of those games the limit was quite small generally compaired to our current system and honestly at this point in the games cycle no one should be sporting much more than 300-400.

there are some with 1.6k, a number which quite frankly is not only excessive but gives them such a severe advantage that its not really sensible or feasible given the current state of the game overall.

Attorneyatlawl · August 2015

Soulshine wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

lance_lindbergub17_ESO wrote: »

CP is primarily a problem for PVP. There's a much easier solution than capping it for everyone, give PVP players a choice, by making a campaign that uses CP, and one that does not. Simple.

If I want CP points to count in PVP , I join the campaign that incorporates CP.
If I don't want CP points involved in PVP, I join the campaign that ignores them.

CP has an (smaller) impact on PVE. Instead of capping it for everyone, give PVE players a choice, to use CP/not for ranked content.

If I want to run VDSA using CP, I choose to do so and am ranked with others using CP
If I want to run VDSA without CP, I choose to do so, and am ranked with others ignoring CP

CP does NOT "primarily" affect PvP. It impacts every aspect of play and completely trivializes it to the point of making it irrelevant to the Godmode options it renders for players. You put in a system which allows for essentially infinite progression into all possible passives and then sit back and watch PvE challenge go completely out the window (already happened) and class balance - such as it was anyway even before CP... - totally irrelevant.

The system design at core was flawed from the get go and is not conducive to meaningful choices let alone in harmony with that concept, and in fact is a departure from it in the wost way. Considering the massive litany of rationlizations for the 5 skill action bar alone, you would think someone on the dev team would have realized that allowing for everything to get maxed for every stat, would not be a smart let alone sustainable system in an MMO.

Then the problem is not CP but lack of content scaled up to people with that much CP?

Have you ever thought that people who grinded CP might enjoy the fact that now everything is easy? Have you thought they might have done this on purpose? That they like it when their character gets stronger?

Have you ever played with a progression raiding guild? Have you ever played with a dedicated hardcore PvP guild? Have you ever thought that those people do NOT enjoying facerolling content by just lamblasting past all mechanics because the DPS, shields, blocking, etc. is so over the top? There have already been umpteen threads posted about this as far back as the earliest rounds of PTS testing of CP system.

We are also not talking about getting "stronger" here. The CP system allows for ALL stats to be completly maxed out and all possible combat passives as well -- regardless of your build, your role, or yoour skill at playing.

Players in every single MMO I have ever played also always outpace the rate at which content is delivered. You cannot put in a system like this one as just say the solution is that well we just need to have more content scaled up.

(Cliff notes/tl;dr section at the end of this post.)

I'm in a progression raiding guild now, and have played with dedicated hardcore PvP guilds, both in ESO and other games. Hoping soon to join up with a hardcore PvP one (to be continued... ) again here.

Here's the interesting thing about allowing for character strength to grow beyond the content: limit it enough so that it isn't overwhelmingly powerful to where the content is like sleepwalking, and it doesn't make it "easier" or trivialize it. It alters it. Some of the best leaderboard-scoring strategies, lately, have involved leveraging those points to do complete the Trials/Veteran Dragonstar Arena, while still killing everything, that would be difficult or impossible otherwise including concepts like split groups even mid-pull. This doesn't result in it being easier... but rather, different, and on the edge cases where it's only just above the mark of being practically possible, it actually becomes harder to pull off.

@MaximusDargo additionally brought up a pretty good point, as far as individual progression. I've posted more than a bit before, about the champion system, its power gap potential (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion), and leveling speeds between different game activities. One of the reasons I basically had stopped posting about PVP and PVE XP parity even in a thread directed at @ZOS_BrianWheeler, was that I realized something: "Maybe those mobs, in the massive Imperial City sewers I'd seen @Dominoid's datamined maps of, provide good XP, enough so that it's worth the risk to kill them for currency as well as leveling, with the risk of PVP attackers and mixing up the action in gameplay! That might be why they aren't mentioning much about really and definitely looking into raising the XP from player kills directly?"

I think that turned out to be the case! The sewers mobs I've been killing packs of so far, give around 1255 champion XP/regular XP without enlightenment, when not subscribed to ESO Plus but using a crafted Psijic Ambrosia drink on the Imperial City 2.1 PTS. Is that going to be enough to bridge the parity gap? Not necessarily. But, it may bring it close enough along with the whole idea of a rolling cap average as @Gidorick's been advocating for, that it overall becomes a non-issue in the practical sense when playing. Hop in a duo or trio and rampage through which makes the killing much easier and more reliable along with giving you better odds when enemy players inevitably jump on you to go for a fight, and it's a very fun & varied source of XP gain, Tel Var stones, and AP!

CLIFF NOTES: So basically, to sum up my mini-wall of text here, I'm thinking that:
-The rolling cap average idea (taking into account server processing load, it would have its effect almost entirely the same way by doing it once a day at an off-peak time, for the boost) that scales based on your current champion rank vs. the top ten or so percent's, granting you more Enlightenment on your daily tick based upon how big the difference is (remember, Enlightenment causes you to earn champion points at quadruple the speed you do when you aren't Enlightened).
-The Imperial City may have already hit the answer, if that were implemented, as far as making up the rest of the parity gap in PVE/PVP. I'm sure most people can relate: if you have Enlightenment, it really doesn't feel like it takes long to grab a champion level. Therefore, even in PVE activity that doesn't give as much insane XP as solely focusing on your earnings per hour, you still would be progressing at a nice rate then.

Well that's one opinion - long winded as usual.

I dont agree with CPs caps as a solution to the problem which the CP system has created in an already problem plagued leveling system at end game.

Temporarily capping stats by DLCs is just a band aid on a bigger issue few are willing to look at square in the face. The game was already a sleepwalk before CPs let alone now, and no amount of delays in people still being able to acquire all of them will change it. Allowing for all possible combat passives from the CP system allocation to be applied to a single build is the issue.

Well.... no, it's not. Leaderboard Trials and VDSA runs are anything but a sleepwalk, and like I said, it does open up additional strategies that result in a rolling difficulty increase in some ways, too. For solo PVE content, or daily undaunted gold key dungeons? Sure, I wouldn't disagree that they're pretty easy for a lot of people, although they likewise aren't for some as well.

The issue of Champion Ranks not ultimately allowing for customization due to eventually earning all of them, is an idea I'm already planning to speak of a solution for soon, which I hope will be pretty popular .

EDIT: Added spoiler tags around the quote, which ended up being way too big .

Again don't agree. vDSA is not difficult. Neither are trials. They are extremely simplistic, scaled down versions of a few elements from full blown raids from other games and do not in anyway provide for complex game play like the kind some of us are used to engaging.

As for your "idea" - many of us have already argued about this a year ago before this system went live, since we could see it coming to the point exactly where it is right now, including this supposedly "new" idea of theirs to season cap CPs. Its a joke.

Yeah, I'm not new to MMO's either... I said leaderboard runs, though. Depending on who you're running with, just completing the trials can range from "really simple " to "OMG I JUST GOT THE ACHEIEVEMENT GUYS!" tough in terms of how you feel afterwards

. And for many, the latter is something they'd not only say, but be proud to. That's great! I've long advocated here for options, going from the UI on up. That doesn't just mean difficulty in options, but also ease for newer or, completely legitimately a playstyle, more casual players. Going for the top few spots on the boards is an entirely different animal, and is what I meant when I said "leaderboard runs for trials and vdsa".

Eso's trials aren't quite intended to be what many people's World of Wombats careers might have lead them to think of them as, if you played it? They're meant as shorter excursions you repeat more quickly to improve and aim for the top, if looking for a challenge, instead of three hour long 25-40-man required to even go "raids". Wow wasn't the first MMO, and it wasn't the only one to ever have a raid

. That game's one take on it of many. If you participate in the PTS for very long, you'll find out the content direction. Spoiler alert: easier to complete on normal mode dungeons and trials that are mechanics-focused after a moderate boss to make sure your group can do it between damage, healing, and coordination, and then fun. The veteran modes of those two Imperial City DLC dungeons are a nice challenge.

On your last remark, I've yet to see another post outlining how to change champion system progression quite how my idea was, so I think it's pretty much new to at least most people. But that isn't what I had referred to in the first place, even. "Champion point customization" is, not champion point progression as you followed up with.

Lito · August 2015

Kinda, If you can still earn CP even-though you wont be able to always to use all of them.

Well obviously if you don't put a cap botters and no-lifers will pretty much grind to unbeliable levels while the rest of the population won't be even close to it. That's a fact. Now, if this fact is breaking the game to a point where it becomes a serious problem, a cap is needed. That's on the dev's to decide. If an action is needed, I'd say either put a hard cap or let players "store" some points after reaching the cap, so if they take a break and return later they will be greeted with some progress made from the past.

From a players perspective, yes, it sucks having grinded for 1000 CP and discover now you can only use 300. But that's how online mmorpgs work. It's expected. Every mmo or online gaming player learns this sooner or later.

k2blader · August 2015

Waffennacht wrote: »

There are no need for caps.

Ive been PvP ing a lot to see what the veterans can do.

Im lvl 33 faced DK werewolf lvl V2, he attacked me while I was on horseback and after a few minutes of battle he ran off. Knowing he went for an advantage I disengaged and left.

Ran into a V12 i believe NB and after another timely battle he lay dead.

Then came a V9 sorceror, Im sure I would have killed him in 1v1 but half way through a group of allies came and killed him.

I was then fighting a V 12 DK and was about to kill him then an enemy archer came to his aid and killed me.

My opinion is that of course levels matter but to say you will automatically lose to these higher players is a mistake. Leave the game be I say

Why do people always want to give these little stories about, "Oh as a much lower level player I beat ( much higher level / much higher rank /much better geared / better looking / blah blah player." No one really gives a crap about your little tales you can embellish any way you want. Any more skilled player-- which is about half the playerbase-- will beat your embellished behind.

Soulshine · August 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

lance_lindbergub17_ESO wrote: »

CP is primarily a problem for PVP. There's a much easier solution than capping it for everyone, give PVP players a choice, by making a campaign that uses CP, and one that does not. Simple.

If I want CP points to count in PVP , I join the campaign that incorporates CP.
If I don't want CP points involved in PVP, I join the campaign that ignores them.

CP has an (smaller) impact on PVE. Instead of capping it for everyone, give PVE players a choice, to use CP/not for ranked content.

If I want to run VDSA using CP, I choose to do so and am ranked with others using CP
If I want to run VDSA without CP, I choose to do so, and am ranked with others ignoring CP

CP does NOT "primarily" affect PvP. It impacts every aspect of play and completely trivializes it to the point of making it irrelevant to the Godmode options it renders for players. You put in a system which allows for essentially infinite progression into all possible passives and then sit back and watch PvE challenge go completely out the window (already happened) and class balance - such as it was anyway even before CP... - totally irrelevant.

The system design at core was flawed from the get go and is not conducive to meaningful choices let alone in harmony with that concept, and in fact is a departure from it in the wost way. Considering the massive litany of rationlizations for the 5 skill action bar alone, you would think someone on the dev team would have realized that allowing for everything to get maxed for every stat, would not be a smart let alone sustainable system in an MMO.

Then the problem is not CP but lack of content scaled up to people with that much CP?

Have you ever thought that people who grinded CP might enjoy the fact that now everything is easy? Have you thought they might have done this on purpose? That they like it when their character gets stronger?

Have you ever played with a progression raiding guild? Have you ever played with a dedicated hardcore PvP guild? Have you ever thought that those people do NOT enjoying facerolling content by just lamblasting past all mechanics because the DPS, shields, blocking, etc. is so over the top? There have already been umpteen threads posted about this as far back as the earliest rounds of PTS testing of CP system.

We are also not talking about getting "stronger" here. The CP system allows for ALL stats to be completly maxed out and all possible combat passives as well -- regardless of your build, your role, or yoour skill at playing.

Players in every single MMO I have ever played also always outpace the rate at which content is delivered. You cannot put in a system like this one as just say the solution is that well we just need to have more content scaled up.

(Cliff notes/tl;dr section at the end of this post.)

I'm in a progression raiding guild now, and have played with dedicated hardcore PvP guilds, both in ESO and other games. Hoping soon to join up with a hardcore PvP one (to be continued... ) again here.

Here's the interesting thing about allowing for character strength to grow beyond the content: limit it enough so that it isn't overwhelmingly powerful to where the content is like sleepwalking, and it doesn't make it "easier" or trivialize it. It alters it. Some of the best leaderboard-scoring strategies, lately, have involved leveraging those points to do complete the Trials/Veteran Dragonstar Arena, while still killing everything, that would be difficult or impossible otherwise including concepts like split groups even mid-pull. This doesn't result in it being easier... but rather, different, and on the edge cases where it's only just above the mark of being practically possible, it actually becomes harder to pull off.

@MaximusDargo additionally brought up a pretty good point, as far as individual progression. I've posted more than a bit before, about the champion system, its power gap potential (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion), and leveling speeds between different game activities. One of the reasons I basically had stopped posting about PVP and PVE XP parity even in a thread directed at @ZOS_BrianWheeler, was that I realized something: "Maybe those mobs, in the massive Imperial City sewers I'd seen @Dominoid's datamined maps of, provide good XP, enough so that it's worth the risk to kill them for currency as well as leveling, with the risk of PVP attackers and mixing up the action in gameplay! That might be why they aren't mentioning much about really and definitely looking into raising the XP from player kills directly?"

I think that turned out to be the case! The sewers mobs I've been killing packs of so far, give around 1255 champion XP/regular XP without enlightenment, when not subscribed to ESO Plus but using a crafted Psijic Ambrosia drink on the Imperial City 2.1 PTS. Is that going to be enough to bridge the parity gap? Not necessarily. But, it may bring it close enough along with the whole idea of a rolling cap average as @Gidorick's been advocating for, that it overall becomes a non-issue in the practical sense when playing. Hop in a duo or trio and rampage through which makes the killing much easier and more reliable along with giving you better odds when enemy players inevitably jump on you to go for a fight, and it's a very fun & varied source of XP gain, Tel Var stones, and AP!

CLIFF NOTES: So basically, to sum up my mini-wall of text here, I'm thinking that:
-The rolling cap average idea (taking into account server processing load, it would have its effect almost entirely the same way by doing it once a day at an off-peak time, for the boost) that scales based on your current champion rank vs. the top ten or so percent's, granting you more Enlightenment on your daily tick based upon how big the difference is (remember, Enlightenment causes you to earn champion points at quadruple the speed you do when you aren't Enlightened).
-The Imperial City may have already hit the answer, if that were implemented, as far as making up the rest of the parity gap in PVE/PVP. I'm sure most people can relate: if you have Enlightenment, it really doesn't feel like it takes long to grab a champion level. Therefore, even in PVE activity that doesn't give as much insane XP as solely focusing on your earnings per hour, you still would be progressing at a nice rate then.

Well that's one opinion - long winded as usual.

I dont agree with CPs caps as a solution to the problem which the CP system has created in an already problem plagued leveling system at end game.

Temporarily capping stats by DLCs is just a band aid on a bigger issue few are willing to look at square in the face. The game was already a sleepwalk before CPs let alone now, and no amount of delays in people still being able to acquire all of them will change it. Allowing for all possible combat passives from the CP system allocation to be applied to a single build is the issue.

Well.... no, it's not. Leaderboard Trials and VDSA runs are anything but a sleepwalk, and like I said, it does open up additional strategies that result in a rolling difficulty increase in some ways, too. For solo PVE content, or daily undaunted gold key dungeons? Sure, I wouldn't disagree that they're pretty easy for a lot of people, although they likewise aren't for some as well.

The issue of Champion Ranks not ultimately allowing for customization due to eventually earning all of them, is an idea I'm already planning to speak of a solution for soon, which I hope will be pretty popular .

EDIT: Added spoiler tags around the quote, which ended up being way too big .

Again don't agree. vDSA is not difficult. Neither are trials. They are extremely simplistic, scaled down versions of a few elements from full blown raids from other games and do not in anyway provide for complex game play like the kind some of us are used to engaging.

As for your "idea" - many of us have already argued about this a year ago before this system went live, since we could see it coming to the point exactly where it is right now, including this supposedly "new" idea of theirs to season cap CPs. Its a joke.

Yeah, I'm not new to MMO's either... I said leaderboard runs, though. Depending on who you're running with, just completing the trials can range from "really simple " to "OMG I JUST GOT THE ACHEIEVEMENT GUYS!" tough in terms of how you feel afterwards . And for many, the latter is something they'd not only say, but be proud to. That's great! I've long advocated here for options, going from the UI on up. That doesn't just mean difficulty in options, but also ease for newer or, completely legitimately a playstyle, more casual players. Going for the top few spots on the boards is an entirely different animal, and is what I meant when I said "leaderboard runs for trials and vdsa".

Eso's trials aren't quite intended to be what many people's World of Wombats careers might have lead them to think of them as, if you played it? They're meant as shorter excursions you repeat more quickly to improve and aim for the top, if looking for a challenge, instead of three hour long 25-40-man required to even go "raids". Wow wasn't the first MMO, and it wasn't the only one to ever have a raid . That game's one take on it of many. If you participate in the PTS for very long, you'll find out the content direction. Spoiler alert: easier to complete on normal mode dungeons and trials that are mechanics-focused after a moderate boss to make sure your group can do it between damage, healing, and coordination, and then fun. The veteran modes of those two Imperial City DLC dungeons are a nice challenge.

On your last remark, I've yet to see another post outlining how to change champion system progression quite how my idea was, so I think it's pretty much new to at least most people. But that isn't what I had referred to in the first place, even. "Champion point customization" is, not champion point progression as you followed up with.

Content for more casual playstyles abounds in the game.

Leaderboard spots in PvE are presently a complete farce, given PvP buffs for starters, exploits and bypassing content for another.

I am well aware of for what Trials in ESO are intended. They still do not represent a challenge for a large number of people I know and have played with, which is why many have left the game.

I have not ever nor will I play WoW. Most of the people I am referring to did not either.

I have been on PTS many times and have contributed my share of information where appropriate via the correct channels.

If you have not read any posts from other people last year discussing why the CP system could not work as designed, you must have been living under a rock or on vacation from your career as a lecturer on the forums.

As is, there are several people who are now banned from posting here since that time, and have continued the discussion of it elsewhere on Reddit and on TF. Choose to think your view on that is unique all you want. There are also plenty of people talking about this in game while never posting here.

My point earlier about the CP system has never been about point progression.

My statement was a simple one. The CP system is flawed and not sustainable because it continues to allow for complete application of all possible combat passives in one build.

THAT has nothing whatsoever to do with HOW you progress through the CP system or at what rate you earn the points, but rather with the failure of the system to adhere to already established norms in the game regarding the importance of choices and consequences for them, for everything from armor, to weapons, to every skill line and its respective morphs, to the 5 skill action bar, to name but a few.

CP caps will not change what is an inherent mess in the system's design.

Nebthet78 · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

Yes.

I would do it as follows:

500 CP cap with the release of IC.
750CP cap with release of Orsinium
1000cp cap with release of thieves or dark brotherhood, whichever comes first.
1250cp for the next
1500 for the one after

You see where this is going.. that means you can earn 500cp pretty close to every six moths which I feel is reasonable and makes you take a few years to actually reach the max 3600,

GOREKIN · August 2015

Kinda, If you can still earn CP even-though you wont be able to always to use all of them.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Yes.

I would do it as follows:

500 CP cap with the release of IC.
750CP cap with release of Orsinium
1000cp cap with release of thieves or dark brotherhood, whichever comes first.
1250cp for the next
1500 for the one after

You see where this is going.. that means you can earn 500cp pretty close to every six moths which I feel is reasonable and makes you take a few years to actually reach the max 3600,

The above is not too bad...if it was that I be happy and would change my vote.....

ginoboehm · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Yes.

I would do it as follows:

500 CP cap with the release of IC.
750CP cap with release of Orsinium
1000cp cap with release of thieves or dark brotherhood, whichever comes first.
1250cp for the next
1500 for the one after

You see where this is going.. that means you can earn 500cp pretty close to every six moths which I feel is reasonable and makes you take a few years to actually reach the max 3600,

yeah seems very resonable. and perhaps let be people that are one step behind be permanent enlighted. so from 1-500 after the release of ic you are enlighted after orsinium from 1-750 and so on.

Sandmanninja · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

A cap is the simplest and most logical way to fix the grinding issue.
CPs were designed to be earned at a reasonable rate. More of a 'hey! you're doing normal game stuff, questing, dungeons, etc. Have a small buff to your passives".

BUT there are many people who obsess over grinding CPs for hours and hours and days and weeks at a time. non-stop. To me, that's abusing the intent of the CP system.

Rather than nerfing already small buffs (when you get to 200+ CPs, the returns are already pretty small), they decided to limit how many you can earn at a time.

I had often thought this would be the most elegant solution.

Honestly, the only people complaining are the ones that were abusing it.

Sandmanninja · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

If ZOS starts reneging on the Champion System when people have invested hundreds of hours grinding CP... this will be the end of their credibility.

don't frickin' grind!

Just play the game. Quest. Explore. Do dungeons and trials. To mindlessly kill mobs, over and over, for the sake of exploiting the rewards at end game.... how can that be fun? Just reinforces my statement that the only people complaining are the people who are exploiting it.

Sandmanninja · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

This game just got stupid.
We are going to remove the vet levels by adding vet levels which will be replaced by champion points, which can be ground to replace lack of endgame. It will take a long time to get these points to a level that really matters.... Hold on, my phones ringing. ..... What? People are getting an advantage with the new system, and have already gotten more points than we thought possible? Well, let's give the players double xp potions to catch up to those players.....there that's fixed. As I was saying. .. Hold on... Phone again.. . What? Now the people that already have a massive lead in champion points are using the xp potions to get an even bigger lead? Well, put a cap on the points gained, yeah, make it so they can't gain anymore untill the next dlc is released. That will fix it... Wait, what was I doing in the first place, oh yeah, removing something... Uh.

Taking a page from a 10-year-old MMO... put a weekly cap on how many you can earn. Period. Let the grinders grind and after they've reached their weekly cap, they can do dungeons or bugger off and do something else. Exploiters are gonna exploit. Limit their ability to exploit and problem solved.

Sandmanninja · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

I see so many mentions of "Campaigns" in this thread.
Which tells me the CP grinders are PvPers who feel so unloved that they want every ounce of gankability so that have an upper hand on others on the battlefield.

Sandmanninja · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

SourishWhale wrote: »

@Sausage

Yes, but even with the catch up mechanic, you don't have a choice on how to play.

Say Im a PVPer and I want to PVP all the time and actually be able to compete and enjoy it, I have to grind mobs or quest for several hours in order to do so. For most of the PVPers, this is not enjoyable at all, and takes much of the fun away from playing the game.

I like PVP, and I want to play PVP as much as I can. I shouldn't have to spend the first month of the DLC period grinding to cap, just so I can do what I want when I play ESO.

Any player of any level should be able to jump in to a PVP server and compete against similar leveled players.

Even with a cap, you still would be expected to grind/quest a lot of hours each DLC period in order to play competitively.

Even with a great catch-up mechanic, I still have no desire to grind XP. Regardless of how much fast it is. A minute of mob grinding is a minute I would rather be doing something better with my time. And I'd probably not even log on if that was the case.

This is the problem. Catch up is fine if you have high and mighty goals of one day becoming the top tier pvper. So I think that is certainly something that needs to be implemented, to cater to those who want it.

However, some people are happy playing in a 100 CP cap for PVP forever. They don't NEED to catch up. They just want a level playing field to enjoy the game with friends.

*** your PvP. Honestly. Bet you're also hoping for a way to trick players into flagging so you can gank them in towns, too. You know, so you feel better than them.

technohic · August 2015

No, I earned all my CP and want to use them

ginoboehm wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Yes.

I would do it as follows:

500 CP cap with the release of IC.
750CP cap with release of Orsinium
1000cp cap with release of thieves or dark brotherhood, whichever comes first.
1250cp for the next
1500 for the one after

You see where this is going.. that means you can earn 500cp pretty close to every six moths which I feel is reasonable and makes you take a few years to actually reach the max 3600,

yeah seems very resonable. and perhaps let be people that are one step behind be permanent enlighted. so from 1-500 after the release of ic you are enlighted after orsinium from 1-750 and so on.

See; I'm not sure cause I am already permanently enlightened. I have to travel for work pretty often, usually for a work week. When I get back, I have 5 levels stored. I don't want to grind that out when I do get time, I'd rather be playing the game where I would want to, which would be in PvP, so I am likely not going to make up that 5 levels of enlightenment unless I grind.

I tried to do that after the first and second time I traveled since the CS launched and at some point I realised that here I am grinding rather than PvPing. So I quit playing out of frustration of how often in this game I have found it pushing me to not do what I want to do. Then once you quit for a while; you come back to even more piled up enlightenment that really isn't going to do you much good and more of a push to do what you don't want when you realize you are further behind.

The obvious answer is maybe this game isn't for me, even for all the parts of it I like. That's fine. If they see their market being someone else, then they need to move on to that. I don't think capping does that. Its more like they want to favor the ones that had a lot of time, just not as much as some others.

Sandmanninja · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

Caspur wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I know if I had nothing left to strive for in on online game, I would stop playing and probably never come back as a new game would fit my fancy.

If im down to PvP only, ill play CoD.

So what if there is a small percentage of players you can't reach? Oh no you died! The world isn't over, go to a different location.

Finally a game is created that has just about everything I want and everyone wants to turn it into another common game.

I couldn't agree more. Everyone wants this to be another cookie cutter MMO. There are literally hundreds of other games out there where you can be exactly as good as every other player when you reach the CAP.

I, like you, would lose all incentive to play if/when I hit the caps if they were ever implemented.

I hope ZOS aren't even considering this.

You.. you grind and grind, get an uber amount of CPs, camp the choice spots, one-shot everyone else, and tell people to "go someplace else" if they keep getting one-shotted.

Dude - PLEASE go to CoD or some other masterbation-fest of headshots.

Uncle_Voodoo · August 2015

I wonder why they dont just make the CP active in PvE only. That way it can stay account bound and you have the gratification of earning CP, but it will make PvP less unbalanced.

Korah_Eaglecry · August 2015

Sandmanninja wrote: »

Caspur wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I know if I had nothing left to strive for in on online game, I would stop playing and probably never come back as a new game would fit my fancy.

If im down to PvP only, ill play CoD.

So what if there is a small percentage of players you can't reach? Oh no you died! The world isn't over, go to a different location.

Finally a game is created that has just about everything I want and everyone wants to turn it into another common game.

I couldn't agree more. Everyone wants this to be another cookie cutter MMO. There are literally hundreds of other games out there where you can be exactly as good as every other player when you reach the CAP.

I, like you, would lose all incentive to play if/when I hit the caps if they were ever implemented.

I hope ZOS aren't even considering this.

You.. you grind and grind, get an uber amount of CPs, camp the choice spots, one-shot everyone else, and tell people to "go someplace else" if they keep getting one-shotted.

Dude - PLEASE go to CoD or some other masterbation-fest of headshots.

You sound angry. Maybe this video game isnt for you.

JD2013 · August 2015

Yes, It will allow others to catch up.

I vote yes for the cap.

Just because.