Contraptions wrote: »

The entire underlying theme of crafting after 2.1 seems to be GRIND. Grind TV stones for your mats (15000 to craft one piece of V16 armour), grind Glass chapter fragments in writs, grind the RNG when assembling your chapter, grind chests for Malachite fragments etc.

The details of the Glass motif have been rather sketchy so far as well, but if this is gonna be another RNG fest like the Undaunted shoulders, sigh...

I hate to say it, but congratulations ZOS, you even found a way to break crafting. Good job.

I'm okay with the glass/xybthwhatever sets being fragments/rare.

They present absolutely 0 benfit over other styles, other than rarity. I like it and why would I want to wear something if it could be easily obtained by any player with a hour of free time?

Tors wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

@Tors , you do realize that @DDuke is actually defending the 110-ingot requirement by saying that crafting should require more effort? The same as what you are saying?

@Leandor and @DDuke

Dammit, its far easier to argue AGAINST someone, how do I go about arguing against someone who is saying the same thing?

This internet forum battle thing is so complicated

Hey, @Tors I'm as shocked as you are to be in agreement with @DDuke on anything. It's a strange day.

I actually like this. It means pieces of armor are alot more valuable and not easy to make. Im guessing none of you guys played Aion, you need like 200 collect pieces to make 1 item.

I always thought it was silly you could go around to nodes in 10 minutes and make a full set.

Rioht wrote: »

Reading through this I was initially against the large amount of mats required.

However, after thinking about it and realizing the minimal amounf t of damage increase a vr16 item has over a vr15.

I like the design.

Please don't give in to these kids who want everything on a platter. Make them work for the best gear, otherwise they become trivial.

I like it being more rare/harder, BUT I think they went a bit too far is all.

As someone who plays support in every game, from healer to crafter to source of cash for the guild. I welcome making somethings harder to make, but I also believe that player crafted should generally be better than dropped. (off topic I know)

Crafting should have a high kudos, and it kind of does in ESO

I love the way ESO allows for so much choice for the player when it comes to armour and gear. This is healthy and we dont see much in the way of cookie cutter load outs.

Yeah there are some sets more suited to certain things, but there is still choice.

If raw material costs are indeed more expensive for the Vr16 bits n bobs, then all is good, the materials are extremely easy to get anyway

Most_Awesome wrote: »

A little question: The old crafted sets i.e Seducers sets do they need these new matts to be made v15 v16 or is it still just the old stuff

Any set, even plain white, traitless and setless sword of VR16 needs new materials.

They nerfed crafted sets by one level, too, right? So VR15 crafted gear in Update 7 is identical stats to VR14 crafted gear in Update 6? That means VR15 gear is not even better than what we currently have. So while it requires much less material, you are just running in place. To get a true improvement over Update 6, you need thousands of these new crafting materials to craft the VR16 version. Ugh. Grindy grind is grinding.

Edit: As pointed out below, dropped sets got buffed by one level, not crafted sets nerfed by 1 level. So VR15 crafted in Update 7 will be better than VR14 crafted in Update 6.

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

They nerfed crafted sets by one level, too, right? So VR15 crafted gear in Update 7 is identical stats to VR14 crafted gear in Update 6? That means VR15 gear is not even better than what we currently have. So while it requires much less material, you are just running in place. To get a true improvement over Update 6, you need thousands of these new crafting materials to craft the VR16 version. Ugh. Grindy grind is grinding.

No, they didn't nerf crafted sets. They improved dropped items to the level of crafted items.

Faulgor wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

They nerfed crafted sets by one level, too, right? So VR15 crafted gear in Update 7 is identical stats to VR14 crafted gear in Update 6? That means VR15 gear is not even better than what we currently have. So while it requires much less material, you are just running in place. To get a true improvement over Update 6, you need thousands of these new crafting materials to craft the VR16 version. Ugh. Grindy grind is grinding.

No, they didn't nerf crafted sets. They improved dropped items to the level of crafted items.

You are right. I misinterpreted the patch notes. My bad, so thanks for the correction!

Rioht wrote: »

Contraptions wrote: »

The entire underlying theme of crafting after 2.1 seems to be GRIND. Grind TV stones for your mats (15000 to craft one piece of V16 armour), grind Glass chapter fragments in writs, grind the RNG when assembling your chapter, grind chests for Malachite fragments etc.

The details of the Glass motif have been rather sketchy so far as well, but if this is gonna be another RNG fest like the Undaunted shoulders, sigh...

I hate to say it, but congratulations ZOS, you even found a way to break crafting. Good job.

I'm okay with the glass/xybthwhatever sets being fragments/rare.

They present absolutely 0 benfit over other styles, other than rarity. I like it and why would I want to wear something if it could be easily obtained by any player with a hour of free time?

I fully understand the desire to "earn" your gear through gameplay, but there is a fine line between "challenging"/"tedious" and "earning"/"grinding". IMO the current system is too much of a grind, and I'm going to explain why with reference to another systems they implemented: The Dwemer motif. I never complained when the first one came out, and here's why:

The Dwemer motif came in 15 chapters, with the chance of finding the whole book if you were lucky. As a player I only needed to beat the RNG 15 times minimum, and the number of "tries" at the RNG is limited by how much time I want to spend opening urns. I am in relatively good control how fast or slow I get the Dwemer motif.

Not so for Glass. I am limited off the bat by the number of writs I can do a day, and thus the number of "tries" (24 max assuming you have all 8 chars maxed). After the initial layer of RNG when opening writ boxes, there is another layer of RNG and cost (Resin) just to assemble the fragments into one chapter. So if I want to get the full motif, assuming there are 15 chapters, I need to beat the first RNG 150 times, beat the second one 15 times, and pay for 15 Resins (25000 * 15 = 375000 gold) as well. Why the huge disparity between the two? Aren't they both cosmetic? And this isn't even counting the third layer of RNG involved when getting the Malachite fragments. The amount of luck and time involved in getting even one piece of Glass armour compared to Dwemer is so large, with no good reason for it. If you're the kind of player who likes these kinds of luck-based systems, good for you. But I personally find them boring. I don't have the hard numbers for drop rates yet, but if we use Dwemer chapter rates for the Glass fragments, it could be a very long time before the average player even gets to see a single piece of Glass gear. I also heard rumours that full Malachite pieces and the full Glass Motif may be sold in the Crown store (how convenient), so yeah. I know nothing is final yet, but this isn't looking good to me now.

I can't comment on the Xivkyn and Shriven Chests much, since I haven't paid much attention to it yet, but in game I think you have to gather 60 Aether Fragments (RNG layer one) or whatever that only drops occasionally from the roaming IC bosses for a chance at opening the chests (RNG layer two). Again, layers upon layers of RNG, but at least this one can be actively "farmed" to an extent.

Lastly, about the new V15 vs V16 gear, I think having to put in 10X the effort for so little benefit is silly, but it appeals to hardcore farmers/ minmaxers. I for sure won't bother with it, on the off chance that all my effort could be wasted with yet another level cap increase when Orsinium comes out. Oh well.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

There is no logic or sense whatsoever in suddenly making item one lvl higher cost 10 times more resources.

What is wrong with VR16 sword? Is it make of black hole of infinite density?
You put in 10 times more materials and get a sword of the same volume just like VR14 version?

It makes perfect sense... vr16 is a minor power increase for the equipment compared to vr14 of the same. Crafting is already trivial, so it's nice to see something in it that's tougher but also more powerful. Vr14 vs vr16 weapons will be a whopping (/sarcasm) 36-44 power higher than now (1132). It's not a need. It's a want. Having nothing to be working towards is one of the issues that's plagued ESO at some times, where you got the absolute best much too quickly, or so close it didn't matter. That's a bad design for an online RPG. The idea is to make these items slightly scarcer, which also fosters the economy in-game.

"Having nothing to be working towards" is the mentality that has been poluting MMOs for decades now. A game is game, you play it to have fun and should enjoy it for its gameplay and/or content. When you constantly need to work toward something to keep sticking in a game, it means the content/gameplay isn't fit for you anymore and you should probably look for another game because you tire of it.

Double-checked in-game: it's 13 ingots to craft a metal item of vr15... and 130 for a vr16, which is just half of the power jump from vr12 to vr14 gear. It follows the exact same scaling. Here's a v15 epic set bonus (minimal material cost) vs a v16 one (much higher material cost):



I know everyone's excited to dig into the PTS... I am, too... but at least check the facts and give them some time to settle and test before demanding immediate changes. I could probably have written a novel about the minor bits I might have reacted to with quibbles in the patch notes... thankfully, not everyone is so quick to run to the forums without even trying it out much, if at all, first.

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

There is no logic or sense whatsoever in suddenly making item one lvl higher cost 10 times more resources.

What is wrong with VR16 sword? Is it make of black hole of infinite density?
You put in 10 times more materials and get a sword of the same volume just like VR14 version?

It makes perfect sense... vr16 is a minor power increase for the equipment compared to vr14 of the same. Crafting is already trivial, so it's nice to see something in it that's tougher but also more powerful. Vr14 vs vr16 weapons will be a whopping (/sarcasm) 36-44 power higher than now (1132). It's not a need. It's a want. Having nothing to be working towards is one of the issues that's plagued ESO at some times, where you got the absolute best much too quickly, or so close it didn't matter. That's a bad design for an online RPG. The idea is to make these items slightly scarcer, which also fosters the economy in-game.

"Having nothing to be working towards" is the mentality that has been poluting MMOs for decades now. A game is game, you play it to have fun and should enjoy it for its gameplay and/or content. When you constantly need to work toward something to keep sticking in a game, it means the content/gameplay isn't fit for you anymore and you should probably look for another game because you tire of it.

That point would be great, if this were a single-player game. This is an MMORPG, and the power difference is so incredibly miniscule that it's something you would just save towards incidentally over time rather than run right out and try to grab it as soon as possible. Games get boring if there's nothing to even mark as a milestone: imagine counter-strike without scoreboards or clans . If you feel compelled to grind your heart out for such a small change (in this set's case, it is mathematically under one tenth of a single percent to your overall character), that's not a game flaw. They made it extremely tiny and more of a prestige thing than anything.

Dislcaimer: I haven't downloaded the PTS yet, but I plan to and test. What I'm about to say is just based on the previous responses and screenshots.

I've got two minds on this. When it comes to making v16 hard to make, I sort of get it. It takes a long time to gather the mats and craft, and perhaps that instills a sense of accomplishment in those that choose to do it. There's also the notion that inflating the cost by 10-fold provides some longevity to crafting (i.e. people won't have v16 within a week of PTS going live). Also, as has been stated, the power and stat increase for going from v15 to v16 is small. And because the cost to craft v15 scales normally, it stands to reason that anyone wanting a power jump could simply stick with v15 for now, knowing that v16 is not significantly better. Crafting v16 is for the prestige.

Ok, so what about the other end of the argument then? One could say, "Be satisfied with v15 because v16 isn't much better." But one could also say, "Why should I craft v16 at all when v15 is essentially the same at a tenth of the cost?" Certainly, I'd like a better reason to craft v16 than prestige, since in order to have that, I'd essentially need to broadcast to everyone that I'm wearing v16 (unless there's a visual difference). I'd feel more satisfied crafting glass v15 armor, since people could simply look at me and know how much time and effort went into making my armor and weapons. And if longevity is an issue, I do believe the new motifs all on their own are going to take a hefty amount of time to make for the vast majority of players.

Honestly, I'm on the fence because I can see this as good and bad. Really, I'd like confirmation or denial from ZOS that the 10x cost increase is correct. As it stands now, I will personally try to get v16 gear, because it is something to work at. Yet, when I obtain a full set, I know I will be disappointed in the imbalance between the time I spent and paltry stat increase.

Because within two weeks after the update hit the live server, we will have crafting mats in the crown store...