Researching Traits should be more interactive.

Azurephoenix999 · July 2015

AaronLannister wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

AaronLannister wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

AaronLannister wrote: »

Azurulia wrote: »

AaronLannister wrote: »

Azurulia wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Entitlement at its best.

Xbox one? How long it has been from the launch? And you already want everything instantly?

Whenever i find a topic with "speed something up, make it faster, X takes too long" i find console player complaining that they cant get something in one day.

"Say you wanted to research every trait in the game. Even with all passives it would take over a year, purely because of the timer ZOS has slapped on there."

It takes only over a year if you want to research whole clothing inventory (light and medium). For full woodworking its half that.

Also, who tells you to research every trait in the game? Specialise if waiting a bit is too difficult to you. Be only woodcrafter or only light armor crafter.

Once again all i see is "I want everything and i want it now! give it to me! ROAR"

"Here's my idea. Instead of being forced to wait"

Noone is forced to wait. You decide if you want craft or not. You can live perfectly with 0 crafting skill and be full time warrior. You CHOOSE to research everything. And with choices comes consequences. Deal with it

"If you wish to give constructive criticism, or maybe suggest some features I haven't even thought of, then go right ahead. If your suggestion is good, I'll update the OP and credit you at the bottom."

Looks like "Club of people who only agree with me"

I laughed a few times while reading this, because this is essentially what I was thinking what reading the OP. First line says it all really.

it isn't, it's a boring mechanic that's in there to make it seem like the game and or crafting system has more content.

I don't see it like that. I see it as a time progression thing so those who have been around a while have them. Researching beyond the traits that you really need is a choice, not a requirement.

I don't see this supposed "boring mechanic" you seem to be looking for. I just see time progression, like I just said.

It's not progression it's a Time Wall similar to cell phone games. Okay so waiting 3 to a month days for research to be done is not a boring mechanic. Is Idle Gaming your favorite genre?

Because researching is the ONLY AND ABSOLUTELY ONLY things you can do in game right? The moment you press "research" you lose all the content and there is nothing else to do and game forces you to log out while it continues boring research?

That isn't the point, when it comes to CRAFTING it's a bad mechanic.
It's a boring mechanic that has a bloated Time Wall similar to cell phone games.

Makes crafting into a waiting game, there's absolutely no way around it.

Do you feel like everything in life and game should have a way around it? If yes i have to dissapoint you.... You are wrong.

It's not even about just getting around it, it's called Bad Game Design or in this case, Boring Crafting Design with time walls similar to Cell Phone games.

It IS bad game design. The only reason people seem to defend it is because it's bad game design that they've had to put up with. They think that because it was something they had to put up with, that everyone else also has to put up with it.

Azurephoenix999 · July 2015

Sharee wrote: »

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

The thing about timers is that they are absolutes - you might be able to get 10% off from buying ESO Plus, but otherwise there is no way round them.

You can't spend cash or gold to get round them, but at the same time they do not depend on random drops.

A recipe system will depend on random drops - and vending duplicate/unwanted drops.

Consider the Psijic recipe fragment drop - random in writs. You can now buy parts to compensate for not getting a drop (paying to get a capability) or you can wait on RNG (I haven't had a single drop in weeks of top level writs). To progress you either spend gold or rely on the RNG gods... it won't be long before some people start complaining "I want the Crown Shop to sell recipes".

And a problem with having "recipes" drop from bosses is that some people will say "It's not fair, it's too hard for me to kill it".

At least with a timer the crafting overhead is the same for everyone.

Read the OP, where are recipes mentioned?

I briefly talked about them in the other thread, but this idea has nothing to do with that.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I could only comment on the OP and not on any of the other comments posted here. I didn't know only you could do that...

"Sallington wrote: »
» show previous quotes

Any new traits that are introduced could use something new. Maybe a long quest line in whatever new zones they would inevitably come with, or something like that. Or a chance for the "research book" or something to drop from the last boss in a dungeon."

Your response was:

"That's also a cool idea!"

My point was that the current research mechanism does not allow for short cuts. You can't buy it, you can't get lucky on a random drop.

If you rely on random drops from bosses then you switch to a mechanism that relies on RNG or on buying research books/recipes/call them what you will.

In short, it's not a cool idea.

And I'm telling you, this thread has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with random drops! I didn't bring up random drops even once in this thread!

You said its a cool idea when someone else brought it up tho. Which is what @I_killed_Vivec was responding to.

In all honesty I forgot about that.

In his initial comment (the first one in this chain) he didn't quote anyone or put a name in the comment or anything. I assumed he was talking about either the OP or something I said in another thread since he didn't make it clear who he was responding to.

My response to RNG is that they already have things like that for motifs and recipes, so why not for traits too? If you think that RNG for crafting is a bad idea, then what about all the places where RNG is already involved?

AaronLannister · July 2015

Sharee wrote: »

AaronLannister wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

AaronLannister wrote: »

Azurulia wrote: »

AaronLannister wrote: »

Azurulia wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Entitlement at its best.

Xbox one? How long it has been from the launch? And you already want everything instantly?

Whenever i find a topic with "speed something up, make it faster, X takes too long" i find console player complaining that they cant get something in one day.

"Say you wanted to research every trait in the game. Even with all passives it would take over a year, purely because of the timer ZOS has slapped on there."

It takes only over a year if you want to research whole clothing inventory (light and medium). For full woodworking its half that.

Also, who tells you to research every trait in the game? Specialise if waiting a bit is too difficult to you. Be only woodcrafter or only light armor crafter.

Once again all i see is "I want everything and i want it now! give it to me! ROAR"

"Here's my idea. Instead of being forced to wait"

Noone is forced to wait. You decide if you want craft or not. You can live perfectly with 0 crafting skill and be full time warrior. You CHOOSE to research everything. And with choices comes consequences. Deal with it

"If you wish to give constructive criticism, or maybe suggest some features I haven't even thought of, then go right ahead. If your suggestion is good, I'll update the OP and credit you at the bottom."

Looks like "Club of people who only agree with me"

I laughed a few times while reading this, because this is essentially what I was thinking what reading the OP. First line says it all really.

it isn't, it's a boring mechanic that's in there to make it seem like the game and or crafting system has more content.

I don't see it like that. I see it as a time progression thing so those who have been around a while have them. Researching beyond the traits that you really need is a choice, not a requirement.

I don't see this supposed "boring mechanic" you seem to be looking for. I just see time progression, like I just said.

It's not progression it's a Time Wall similar to cell phone games. Okay so waiting 3 to a month days for research to be done is not a boring mechanic. Is Idle Gaming your favorite genre?

Because researching is the ONLY AND ABSOLUTELY ONLY things you can do in game right? The moment you press "research" you lose all the content and there is nothing else to do and game forces you to log out while it continues boring research?

That isn't the point, when it comes to CRAFTING it's a bad mechanic.
It's a boring mechanic that has a bloated Time Wall similar to cell phone games.

Makes crafting into a waiting game, there's absolutely no way around it.

The way you present it, one would think that crafting involves pressing a button and then staring at a progress bar that prevents you from doing anything else for a year... that would be boring, and a waiting game.

Truth is, you don't have to wait for it to finish. Just set it up, then forget about it while you play the rest of the game.

I'm specifically talking about Crafting, yes you can do other things, But You Won't Progress in crafting because it is behind a Time Wall. There's no super rare item in the game you can get to progress, in fact if you're determined getting a rare Gold color item would be much faster. Gold Color is also the rarest drop soooooooo...

MaxwellC · July 2015

Lol I love how people are ready to crucify someone when they give a suggestion, seriously chill out the OP just gave a suggestion yet you go ahead stating he/she is having entitlement issues.
If you don't like the OPs post then that's fine but don't go out of your way to mock someone, it just shows how childish you are.

Azurephoenix999 · July 2015

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Lol I love how people are ready to crucify someone when they give a suggestion, seriously chill out the OP just gave a suggestion yet you go ahead stating he/she is having entitlement issues.
If you don't like the OPs post then that's fine but don't go out of your way to mock someone, it just shows how childish you are.

Thanks. It's nice to see someone who doesn't have a pitchfork in their hands.

AlnilamE · July 2015

I think there are two different game systems that are being confused and interchanged in this thread, and that's not helping the discussion:

1. Time wall: Something that takes time to accomplish, but does not necessarily involve user action.
2. Time sink: Something that requires active play to accomplish and therefore makes the player have to choose between that or other play options.

The current system (set-it-and-forget-it) is a Time Wall, particularly later when you don't have to think about starting a new research for days on end. While it requires patience, it also frees you to do other stuff while your items are researching.

What the OP is proposing would convert at least part of the Time wall into a Time sink. Rather than just let the research run down on its own, one would have to actively play to reduce it. This would distract from other play options like questing, running dungeons or doing PvP, as well as the crafting writs.

I don't think that's a good idea because there are already enough things in the game that you can do on a daily basis that take time. I do the provisioning writs on 7 toons per day. It would be very annoying to have to do an additional quest to speed up research time when I could be wrapping up a zone with one of my alts or running the pledges or doing some PvP.

But I would do it, because I'm a crafter and I want to know how to make everything (my provisioner is 5 recipes short of completion). And I would dislike it. A lot.

So I do hope that ZOS don't waste any development time on something like that.

Azurulia · July 2015

AaronLannister wrote: »

<Snip>

It's not even about just getting around it, it's called Bad Game Design or in this case, Boring Crafting Design with time walls similar to Cell Phone games.

it sounds to me, you think it's bad game design and boring crafting design. While some may agree with you, others still disagree and are perfectly fine with it. What makes your opinion and thoughts so much better? Since when did you become an expert critic that can claim if something is so horrible?

As an old school mmo gaming vet from the late 90's, your argument (along with many others in here) reeks of lazy, spoiled entitlement. "But I want it nooow! If I can't have it sooner rather than later, it's bad game design!" Because honestly, that's all I am hearing from this.

Nobody is forcing you to sit and twiddle your thumbs as the research progresses. It's just something that ticks away while you are playing the game. It's just an extra something that progresses over time while you are doing whatever it is you were already doing before you started it.

Call it time walled, boring, a bad mechanic, or whatever have you. I say makes perfect sense. is it perfect? No. However it's not that bad either. There are other possibilities to expand on researcher rather than simply making it "go faster."

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

<snip>

It IS bad game design. The only reason people seem to defend it is because it's bad game design that they've had to put up with. They think that because it was something they had to put up with, that everyone else also has to put up with it.

I'm a new player at just 2 weeks. The research times are just now starting to really pick up, and I'm perfectly okay with that. I accept that it will be a long time until I have some of the stuff researched, however I already have all the traits that I'm actually going to use, as well as having unlocked the sets myself and friends are going to use as well.

From here, I'm just doing the research incase later down the road I can make soemthign for someone else if they need it. "Yeah, I have that. I can make it for you."

So it's not just all the older players arguing against the shorter times. there are newer ones like myself that are okay with it.

lathbury · July 2015

Hopefully @Attorneyatlawl can weigh in and work out the maths for a 7.5% reduction i think it would take it down to around 19-21 days for 8th and 9th provided you completed the associated quest each day.
I would like to know the possible time reduction from 0 traits known to all of them but I think having the option of reeducing the time by 9-10 days is fine and rewards those dedicated to crafting.

helediron · July 2015

We have writs. Finishing a writ could snip some hours away from research time. For ninth trait e.g. four hours would cumulate to several days shorter research time.

ZOS_Racheal · July 2015

Greetings everyone,

This thread has been moved from the General forum to the Crafting forum. Additionally, please remember to keep your comments respectful at all times on our forums, even when you disagree with others. Insults or other disruptive behavior do not help further discussion and can move a thread off topic quickly. We encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they are constructively stated when doing so, as this will help keep the discussion on track. Thank you!

Azurephoenix999 · July 2015

The reason having more traits is better is because it gives you a wider selection when crafting.

It opens up more possibilities for you, that's why it's better.
If you already know exactly what armor traits you want when you start, you can get them much faster.

As for how long it takes to get all the traits on one character (thus enabling you to craft anything) I think it's ridiculous.
Waiting is the only way to get traits in this game and there's nothing you can do to get them faster.

I wouldn't ask for any option that instantly awards traits, but I do think there should be a way to get them faster.

My idea revolves solely on allowing people to learn traits faster by putting effort in. HOW THE *** IS THIS A BAD THING!? It's not luck based, nor does it require people to pay real or in-game money!

I got a TON of hate for suggesting this, all because PC are allergic to change and view suggestions like mine as "wanting something now" and being "entitled".

I did calculations, and if 5% of the remaining time was taken off each time the daily task was completed, it would enable the 9th trait to be completed in approx. 20 days instead of 30 (assuming the task was done every day).

To be able to shed 1/3 off the time by putting effort in. One guy who didn't like this idea said that by having the option there, he'd be forced to do menial tasks every day...No. Just no.
Having the OPTION there would not force him to do anything. Anything he did would be his decision only. This idea would be for rewarding people who were willing to put the effort in each day.
If he truly thinks having the option there would force him into doing it then that's his problem and his alone.

Sharee · July 2015

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

My idea revolves solely on allowing people to learn traits faster by putting effort in. HOW THE *** IS THIS A BAD THING!? It's not luck based, nor does it require people to pay real or in-game money!

I got a TON of hate for suggesting this, all because PC are allergic to change and view suggestions like mine as "wanting something now" and being "entitled".

The thing is, you did not give any better reason for why the research should be faster except for 'OMG it takes so long' and 'i want it to be faster'.

Yes, researching all traits takes long, but that's okay, because it does not block your progress, you can become a competent crafter after researching just a couple of traits that you really want, you can even start crafting set items with as few as two traits researched, that's what - three weeks? So why should it be faster? No reason except impatience. That rubs some people the wrong way, thus the reactions you got.

PsychoKRATOS1 · July 2015

I'm lucky enough to own an item with every trait left to research. Metal equipment to wooden weps and lighter armour. (Except for nirnhoned) I discovered that once I research all 8 readily available traits nirnhoned will take an additional 48 days with the 3/3 research passive.

It's just a waiting game... there's no skill or effort involved in getting the traits. Just time. Why make it so you wait so long for the final stages of research in the first place?

I get they want to promote long term commitment to the game and to make it so to get the *best* (subjective) sets you HAVE to *earn it* (twiddle your thumbs until research finishes)

But 48 days for the final trait? For up to only 3 traits at once. If all other traits are researched... for nirnhoned (assuming that's last for you) that's just over an 8th of the year. Over 5/8th's (240 days) of the year for all 14 smithing items. and that's just for the last trait only.

Some of the only things I believe you should earn is the gold for horse upgrades and the motifs, personal opinion, simply because you have the option to buy with $€£.

I do however like the idea of certain actions reducing research time... like in real life certain aspects of research and development would gradually speed up because of improvements in technology. Implement that in the research feature.

I'm not getting impeded by waiting, I understand this, and I believe that people who have already got all traits, if there was a reduction in research time implemented, should get a reward for doing so, like a title or an xp boost for a new character (might stop people feeling hard done by). I can still go about my day slaying away stabbing enemies and the occasional quest while it's all being researched. However I see no fathomable reason, other than the game developers trying to implement an unecessary amount of realism, why pixels need so long to manifest themselves as -in game trait knowledge- to enable you to make other pixels with the same attributes as the pixels you researched.

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

The point is you are trying to force something into game that is absolutely not needed.

Everyone respect timers on researching traits. There is no need to change them.

1st rule of developement:

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Also if just the time wall is enough to limit access to all traits for only those who are really dedicated then there is no need for more fireworks. Ockham's razor, the most simple solution is the best one.

Azurephoenix999 · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

The point is you are trying to force something into game that is absolutely not needed.

Everyone respect timers on researching traits. There is no need to change them.

1st rule of developement:

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Also if just the time wall is enough to limit access to all traits for only those who are really dedicated then there is no need for more fireworks. Ockham's razor, the most simple solution is the best one.

I'm not trying to force anything into the game!
I made a ***-ing suggestion! There's a difference!

PsychoKRATOS1 · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

The point is you are trying to force something into game that is absolutely not needed.

Everyone respect timers on researching traits. There is no need to change them.

1st rule of developement:

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Also if just the time wall is enough to limit access to all traits for only those who are really dedicated then there is no need for more fireworks. Ockham's razor, the most simple solution is the best one.

Lots of updates developers put out there are unnecessary. This would be welcomed.

1st rule of development in my book is avoid complexity until you have a solid foundation to work upon. They have that.
I will be dedicated to this game, it's fun, immersive and I am a great fan of elder scrolls lore and the elder scrolls series in general, from arena to daggerfall, morrowind to skyrim.

Ockham's razor, if you mean that the most simple way forward is to maintain what it's like now as being the simplest most logical path, as this thread proves, that is debatable.

I would be disgusted if they added a way to buy traits with crowns. Probably what people are most worried about, where real world situations impact an online characters development, more so than it already does.
But as OP thought. Making research times get a reduction via an activity, makes researching interactive. Would probably give the feeling that you earned your traits. I believe eso+ has a reduction on research times.

Basically argued against by people who are against others getting an easier ride than they did. The "I didn't get this help so why should they" mentality, I listen (read) all opinions and I understand people's viewpoints, just in this case I take a contradictory stance to people arguing the "no research changes", understanding in this sense not manifesting into agreement. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't complain if they added a way to make the research more interactive or in a completely different subject give us all another way to earn experience faster. No one I've seen so far, on another subject matter entirely, has a valid argument against reducing the xp required for certain things (IE Champion points), so why would this subject, something that would be mutually beneficial for everyone, potentially, get so much debate?

-

PsychoKRATOS1 · July 2015

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

The point is you are trying to force something into game that is absolutely not needed.

Everyone respect timers on researching traits. There is no need to change them.

1st rule of developement:

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Also if just the time wall is enough to limit access to all traits for only those who are really dedicated then there is no need for more fireworks. Ockham's razor, the most simple solution is the best one.

I'm not trying to force anything into the game!
I made a ***-ing suggestion! There's a difference!

I preferred my response :-p

Azurephoenix999 · July 2015

PsychoKRATOS1 wrote: »

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

The point is you are trying to force something into game that is absolutely not needed.

Everyone respect timers on researching traits. There is no need to change them.

1st rule of developement:

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Also if just the time wall is enough to limit access to all traits for only those who are really dedicated then there is no need for more fireworks. Ockham's razor, the most simple solution is the best one.

I'm not trying to force anything into the game!
I made a ***-ing suggestion! There's a difference!

I preferred my response :-p

I preferred your response too. I had a much longer response typed out stating that just because something isn't horribly broken that doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved upon (listed several in-game examples). I erased it because it was too complicated and knew he'd just say something along the lines of "you''re just being lazy".

PsychoKRATOS1 · July 2015

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

PsychoKRATOS1 wrote: »

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

The point is you are trying to force something into game that is absolutely not needed.

Everyone respect timers on researching traits. There is no need to change them.

1st rule of developement:

If it aint broken, dont fix it.

Also if just the time wall is enough to limit access to all traits for only those who are really dedicated then there is no need for more fireworks. Ockham's razor, the most simple solution is the best one.

I'm not trying to force anything into the game!
I made a ***-ing suggestion! There's a difference!

I preferred my response :-p

I preferred your response too. I had a much longer response typed out stating that just because something isn't horribly broken that doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved upon (listed several in-game examples). I erased it because it was too complicated and knew he'd just say something along the lines of "you''re just being lazy".

Wanting something faster isn't laziness. Technology isn't developed to make things slower and harder (obviously) We won't regress to a state where sending a message takes weeks, like it once did, as opposed to now where it can take seconds via the numerous mediums we have at our disposal. Making things faster, easier, more accessible and "as soon as can be possibly accomplished", efficiency permitting, is how humans live.

Arguing against making something easier/shorter seems counter productive to me. Arguing against our very nature.

Which is mainly why I agree with your idea.

helediron · July 2015

While i was swaggering trough Rawk'kha in my white-purple armour taking orders from left and right, some things have happened in the game:
- The early difficulty of finding some rare but ordinary traits have vanished. There is no longer any difficulty to get traits. Just buy them or ask your guild crafter.
- All nirncrux items are available. The early networking and hunt for seed items is gone. It's now like other traits except you need to provide your crux.
- There are more "master crafters" every day. I am making less and less trait items simply because in my guilds there are ever increasing number of people who also can make them.

So i understand that for new players trait research is just time gate because there is nothing else left but the time gate. In early game getting traits was an effort needing alot of exploration and looting. After every quest or delve i carefully checked the loot for new traits. I got almost all traits from my own loot and few were exchanged in guild. Nirn traits were exchanged is small circles. That trait hunt is gone.

This is why i think adding a feature of actively speeding up research is good. My own proposal is that finishing a writ shaves off few hours from every active research of that profession. First it would be cheap to do and secondly it would be a catch-up mechanism for new players. Thirdly it rewards active playing.