Researching Traits should be more interactive.

rb2001

Yep.

Azurephoenix999

MikeyV611 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Personally, I'd like to see the following:

-Remove research times
-Upon activating any research (via the crafting table, destroying an item that has the desired trait), you're given a randomly chosen quest for that trait research. Upon completing the quest, the research is completed.

Quest possibilities:

1. Delve into an ancient ruin looking for information about the desired trait.
This would pick a random public dungeon (ayleid style) in the game world, based on your level, and you would need to find a tome or book within that dungeon, possibly guarded by a unique enemy that appears when you get close to the objective.

2. Obtain research information from an enemy.
This would give you a target, preferrably one of the zone bosses (skull&crossbones icons on the world map) appropriate for your level. You're required to kill the target and loot an item from it that finishes the quest.

3. Practice crafting to learn the trait.
You must craft 10 of the appropriate item type (whatever you're trying to research, whether it be a greatsword or a set of medium armor pants). The level of the item would match the crafter's level, so if you're veteran rank 1 you need to craft 10 calcinium greatswords or 10 topgrain hide pants to complete the quest.


These are all tasks that are reasonable for the player to undertake, and would cut down on the time investment necessary for crafting.

The issue with this is that it still needs to take time. A lot of time. Being a master crafter should be unique. If it was in this style everyone would do it fairly quickly.

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Personally, I'd like to see the following:

-Remove research times
-Upon activating any research (via the crafting table, destroying an item that has the desired trait), you're given a randomly chosen quest for that trait research. Upon completing the quest, the research is completed.

Quest possibilities:

1. Delve into an ancient ruin looking for information about the desired trait.
This would pick a random public dungeon (ayleid style) in the game world, based on your level, and you would need to find a tome or book within that dungeon, possibly guarded by a unique enemy that appears when you get close to the objective.

2. Obtain research information from an enemy.
This would give you a target, preferrably one of the zone bosses (skull&crossbones icons on the world map) appropriate for your level. You're required to kill the target and loot an item from it that finishes the quest.

3. Practice crafting to learn the trait.
You must craft 10 of the appropriate item type (whatever you're trying to research, whether it be a greatsword or a set of medium armor pants). The level of the item would match the crafter's level, so if you're veteran rank 1 you need to craft 10 calcinium greatswords or 10 topgrain hide pants to complete the quest.


These are all tasks that are reasonable for the player to undertake, and would cut down on the time investment necessary for crafting.

I wouldn't remove the timer completely, I'd just make it more bearable by allowing players to shorten it by doing daily quests.

for #1, I like that idea. That could be one of the daily quests.

#2 is essentially the same as number one, so I wouldn't go with that. Maybe you have to steal info from a well-known master crafter? You sneak into their house and steal it and it gives you more insight into the trait?

#3...I don't think that'd work. You'd just be doing the same things as before, you're not learning anything new.

MissBizz wrote: »

Reading over a couple points in this thread, yeah, maybe the percentage is a bit too high. Maybe it could also turn into a "weekly" rather than a daily though? Of course this wouldn't help with the very beginning traits much, but it would help with the long ones. As well I think a weekly would keep the quest more refreshing, as there can only be so many options.

I'd much rather it were a daily thing, but the time shaved off was shorter. That way the player needs to play every day to make the most out of it.

Azurephoenix999

Gyudan wrote: »

Say you wanted to research every trait in the game. Even with all passives it would take over a year, purely because of the timer ZOS has slapped on there.

It took exactly 388 days and that was before the 10% boost from ESO+. (P2W)
Source : Race to the Trait Research finish line

Exactly. This system would encourage people to play more regularly, and it would reduce the time needed to learn all the traits.

Everyone using the argument that "this is an MMO, not a single player game"...I know where you're coming from, but that doesn't mean the game needs to have a time sink like this.

lathbury

done the maths it would take 14 days instead of 30 without the eso plus buff with the proposed system. that is only for a 30 trait once applied across all research it would take research time down by too much trivialising crafting and devaluing gear. so yeah as i stated before all for making crafting more fun but this reduction is to much here's a link to the maths.
wolframalpha.com/share/clip?f=d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e8gjrc376o7&fb_ref=Default
maybe a 7% reduction IDK maybe lawl can step in he's a maths wiz

Sharee

jkemmery wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Are you in a hurry?

You can already reduce the research time significantly by investing in the corresponding passive skill in the crafting line. Just in case you didn't know (i did not see it mentioned in your original post)

I realise that. That "over 1 year" to research everything I put in the OP is assuming you have all the passives AND are subscribed.

Okay. I was just making sure you know about the passives.

Still, the question stands: are you in a hurry? Why is one year too long? Is there some deadline you have to meet? Why can't you take it slow, like every player since release, and just play the game while your research is ticking?

You have proposed a solution to a problem i am not convinced is a problem in the firstplace. I tend to agree with post #4 - it does sounds like a mild case of entitlement.

Sorry, but A) there is no way that the OP is in any shape or form "entitlement". Please look up the word.

"I don't want to wait, i deserve to have it faster!" for no other reason than 'because i think it takes too long'- that would be entitlement. Granted, the OP did not use quite that tone, but the post contained that message to some degree.

jkemmery wrote: »

And B ) if it takes over a year to research abilities to craft armor IN A GAME then it's an intentional time sink, nothing more, nothing less, and is a SERIOUS reason to quit playing.

According to what measure? Where is it defined that X time in a game is okay, but X+1 is already a timesink?

(Also, it does not take a year to research abilities to craft armor, you can craft perfectly fine armor long before that. It only takes that long to reseach every single trait.)

Azurephoenix999

lathbury wrote: »

done the maths it would take 14 days instead of 30 without the eso plus buff with the proposed system. that is only for a 30 trait once applied across all research it would take research time down by too much trivialising crafting and devaluing gear. so yeah as i stated before all for making crafting more fun but this reduction is to much here's a link to the maths.
wolframalpha.com/share/clip?f=d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e8gjrc376o7&fb_ref=Default

So, we need to change the amount it's reduced by. say...7.5% each time? Hold on, Ima make a spreadsheet.

lathbury

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

done the maths it would take 14 days instead of 30 without the eso plus buff with the proposed system. that is only for a 30 trait once applied across all research it would take research time down by too much trivialising crafting and devaluing gear. so yeah as i stated before all for making crafting more fun but this reduction is to much here's a link to the maths.
wolframalpha.com/share/clip?f=d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e8gjrc376o7&fb_ref=Default

So, we need to change the amount it's reduced by. say...7.5% each time? Hold on, Ima make a spreadsheet.

yeah somewhere around that that way it rewards crafters for doing more than waiting around but doesnt make it p2w and adds something new to do also enables them to maybe add further traits in the future without the forums exploding.

doggie

The change I would like to see is that it's harder to get the research item. For example you could only research a looted BOP version and not the crafted Boe one.

That way players would be more split up, and it didn't have to take so long to research, max 2-3 days for example.

30 days waiting time to finish a trait just seems pointless to me.

BlueGreenMikey

I definitely like any sentiment where "do something = reward", so this is definitely an ample enhancement to the crafting system.

The trait/research system is fairly strange from a storytelling standpoint. So you start researching, and research is REALLY easy! It only takes a few minutes! So you should be better at researching. But you're not, you're actually worse. Exponentially worse. Every single time you craft. And it's not like I'm researching harder, more difficult things.

I can research powered on a sword today, and it takes a day, and then I can research powered on a greatsword tomorrow, and it can take two weeks. That just doesn't really make any sense. Breaks the fourth wall a bit for me (and makes sense from the posters who discuss the subscription aspect). Or, an even more ridiculous perspective: I have two swords, powered and sharpened, say. And I can choose either one right now to research, and I'll be done with my research in a day. Great! So I pick powered. And all of a sudden, when I go to research sharpened tomorrow, now it takes me 3 days? Weird.

Not that I need my video game to be ultra-realistic or anything, but it's just funky from a narrative perspective. So I like "You go do something to learn it, and if you do something more or better, you learn it faster" proposals.

Azurephoenix999

BlueGreenMikey wrote: »

I definitely like any sentiment where "do something = reward", so this is definitely an ample enhancement to the crafting system.

The trait/research system is fairly strange from a storytelling standpoint. So you start researching, and research is REALLY easy! It only takes a few minutes! So you should be better at researching. But you're not, you're actually worse. Exponentially worse. Every single time you craft. And it's not like I'm researching harder, more difficult things.

I can research powered on a sword today, and it takes a day, and then I can research powered on a greatsword tomorrow, and it can take two weeks. That just doesn't really make any sense. Breaks the fourth wall a bit for me (and makes sense from the posters who discuss the subscription aspect). Or, an even more ridiculous perspective: I have two swords, powered and sharpened, say. And I can choose either one right now to research, and I'll be done with my research in a day. Great! So I pick powered. And all of a sudden, when I go to research sharpened tomorrow, now it takes me 3 days? Weird.

Not that I need my video game to be ultra-realistic or anything, but it's just funky from a narrative perspective. So I like "You go do something to learn it, and if you do something more or better, you learn it faster" proposals.

This is also something that I find strange about the current research system.

Rinmaethodain

The researching is like getting something out of nowhere.

You get a sword and it has unique ability. You study it and find out what made it so special. Thus you 'only think' you just mastered swords.

And then boom. You thought you know everything about swords yet you get a piece of sword with something new. You didnt expect that. You obviously missed something last time if there is still something to learn from a simple sword. You better spend twice the time examining it.

This is how it works.

Azurephoenix999

MaximusDargus wrote: »

The researching is like getting something out of nowhere.

You get a sword and it has unique ability. You study it and find out what made it so special. Thus you 'only think' you just mastered swords.

And then boom. You thought you know everything about swords yet you get a piece of sword with something new. You didnt expect that. You obviously missed something last time if there is still something to learn from a simple sword. You better spend twice the time examining it.

This is how it works.

That is a good way of explaining it.

Nergie4242

Long training queues pffff try playing eve.

Azurephoenix999

Nergie4242 wrote: »

Long training queues pffff try playing eve.

I...don't even know what to say to that.

Azurephoenix999

Comment from the previous thread that I believe is relevant:

Ourorboros wrote: »

As one of the first in game to have legitimately learned all traits on one character, which took just over a year, I gotta weigh in on this thread. Just the fact that it is 6 pages and growing from a post this morning indicates how polarizing this topic is. I am flat out against ANY crown store option to shorten research times. However, I am not against finding creative ways in the game to reduce the timers. I put the time in because I wanted to get all the traits researched, and there was NO OTHER OPTION but to wait. Other than acquiring all the nirnhone items, there is NOTHING hard about researching traits. Anyone with a watch and calendar can do it. Crafting in this game is pretty boring. Adding challenges or quests is bound to make crafting more fun. While part of me doesn't want to see change to research times because of the time I put in, we have already seen this kind of change in the game without disastrous effect. Everyone whinged so hard about enchanting that it's requirements were reduced. Those, like me, who had already maxed enchanting were not pleased by this. But the new enchanting model hasn't hurt the game...or stopped people complaining about how hard it is (still). I could really understand resistance to changing research times if the 8/9 trait sets were actually useful to the game, but the truth is those sets are a running joke. If some new player can get to 9 traits in 6 months, it will not diminish my sense of accomplishment that I did it first under a different set of rules. The focus should not be on what was required in the past, but on how to improve the game going forward.

Ourorboros

I have already learned all traits on one character on PC, and was one of the first to do so. It took me over a year to get it done. Glad I did it, not for the value it offers me as a crafter (practically none), but for a sense of accomplishment in my first MMO. You might think I'd be against reducing research times, but I support OP. I did it because there were no other options, not because I thought it was a great system. I will not be diminished if a new player can achieve what I did in only six months under different rules. Crafting is one big Fn grind. Adding quests or challenges to make crafting more engaging is something many have been asking for. I see no reason to exclude research times from new changes. Let's look forward to game improvements and not hold onto a *** system just because we had to endure it.

Azurephoenix999

Ourorboros wrote: »

I have already learned all traits on one character on PC, and was one of the first to do so. It took me over a year to get it done. Glad I did it, not for the value it offers me as a crafter (practically none), but for a sense of accomplishment in my first MMO. You might think I'd be against reducing research times, but I support OP. I did it because there were no other options, not because I thought it was a great system. I will not be diminished if a new player can achieve what I did in only six months under different rules. Crafting is one big Fn grind. Adding quests or challenges to make crafting more engaging is something many have been asking for. I see no reason to exclude research times from new changes. Let's look forward to game improvements and not hold onto a *** system just because we had to endure it.

I saw your comment in the other thread (look right above the comment you just made).

Zusia211

Instead of thinking of lowering research times just give me an extra bank for only researching. Or at the very least let us sort so all the daggers are next to each other instead of having to go down the list to see if you have each one researched and popping back up to see if you already have an item for that research.

doggie

If we could start over and had to use the trait system what I would have done is this:

Green items have 3 traits
Blue Items have 6 traits
Epic Items have 9 traits

Only dropped items have traits when you craft you just apply say +Ctritical Strike to the weapon not a trait, so it's easy to see the difference if someone is looking for a item with a trait on trader.

Researching wouldn't need to have to take more than 3 days, but don't need to have more than 1 research slot, not 3 like today.

The difficulty for the player would be to get hold of the traits that only exist on blue and epic gear. Players would then do more dungeons, more dolmens etc.

Then there would exist crafters who have collected and worked for their craft, not just waited.

Ourorboros

Zusia211 wrote: »

Instead of thinking of lowering research times just give me an extra bank for only researching. Or at the very least let us sort so all the daggers are next to each other instead of having to go down the list to see if you have each one researched and popping back up to see if you already have an item for that research.

LOL, my friend if you played on PC, you would have all those.

Azurephoenix999

Zusia211 wrote: »

Instead of thinking of lowering research times just give me an extra bank for only researching. Or at the very least let us sort so all the daggers are next to each other instead of having to go down the list to see if you have each one researched and popping back up to see if you already have an item for that research.

I still think the times are unnecessarily long, but that IS a huge problem you've pointed out.

I think that when you're looking to deconstruct something, there should be an icon next to items with a trait you have yet to research, to prevent you from taking them apart by accident.

That or you should be able to flag certain items in your inventory (e.g. flag stuff so you can differentiate between deconstruct and research).

lathbury

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

Zusia211 wrote: »

Instead of thinking of lowering research times just give me an extra bank for only researching. Or at the very least let us sort so all the daggers are next to each other instead of having to go down the list to see if you have each one researched and popping back up to see if you already have an item for that research.

I still think the times are unnecessarily long, but that IS a huge problem you've pointed out.

I think that when you're looking to deconstruct something, there should be an icon next to items with a trait you have yet to research, to prevent you from taking them apart by accident.

That or you should be able to flag certain items in your inventory (e.g. flag stuff so you can differentiate between deconstruct and research).

this is an add on we have available on pc feel sorry for you console folk without it

Azurephoenix999

lathbury wrote: »

Azurephoenix999 wrote: »

Zusia211 wrote: »

Instead of thinking of lowering research times just give me an extra bank for only researching. Or at the very least let us sort so all the daggers are next to each other instead of having to go down the list to see if you have each one researched and popping back up to see if you already have an item for that research.

I still think the times are unnecessarily long, but that IS a huge problem you've pointed out.

I think that when you're looking to deconstruct something, there should be an icon next to items with a trait you have yet to research, to prevent you from taking them apart by accident.

That or you should be able to flag certain items in your inventory (e.g. flag stuff so you can differentiate between deconstruct and research).

this is an add on we have available on pc feel sorry for you console folk without it

Yeah...I dunno about PS4, but Microsoft is allergic to that kind of stuff.

lathbury

hows the spread sheet coming along whats the maths look like with 7.5%?

Violynne

My only complaint with the system is storing my weapons I want to research only to have them thrown into the list as I break down other weapons.

I'm okay with MATERIALS being used from the bank, but weapons? Oh, and I just figured this out recently because I know I put a bow in the bank I specifically wanted to wait to break down, and felt "lucky" to have found another I could break down for the Turpin.

A "lock from use" option would be helpful, because now, I have absolutely no clue where to put these items without having to remember "Was this the one I wanted to keep?" while waiting another 8 days to pass.

I'm not upset at the time. I'm upset there's no better way to manage this stuff.

Azurephoenix999

lathbury wrote: »

hows the spread sheet coming along whats the maths look like with 7.5%?

I'm trying, but the formula I'm using doesn't seem to be working for some reason...

Sharee

Violynne wrote: »

My only complaint with the system is storing my weapons I want to research only to have them thrown into the list as I break down other weapons.

I'm okay with MATERIALS being used from the bank, but weapons? Oh, and I just figured this out recently because I know I put a bow in the bank I specifically wanted to wait to break down, and felt "lucky" to have found another I could break down for the Turpin.

A "lock from use" option would be helpful, because now, I have absolutely no clue where to put these items without having to remember "Was this the one I wanted to keep?" while waiting another 8 days to pass.

I'm not upset at the time. I'm upset there's no better way to manage this stuff.

Make an alt for holding the items you are saving for research, that way you won't accidentally disassemble them.

Xendyn

lathbury wrote: »

done the maths it would take 14 days instead of 30 without the eso plus buff with the proposed system. that is only for a 30 trait once applied across all research it would take research time down by too much trivialising crafting and devaluing gear. so yeah as i stated before all for making crafting more fun but this reduction is to much here's a link to the maths.
wolframalpha.com/share/clip?f=d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e8gjrc376o7&fb_ref=Default
maybe a 7% reduction IDK maybe lawl can step in he's a maths wiz

Good idea @Attorneyatlawl have a look at all this?

jkemmery

Nergie4242 wrote: »

Long training queues pffff try playing eve.

But in EVE it makes sense because the research expands on previous research. Not so with traits. Also, you can research many things in EVE and have things queued up for months out. The items needed for research do not need to be in your carrying capacity either, prior to beginning research.

Azurephoenix999

lathbury wrote: »

hows the spread sheet coming along whats the maths look like with 7.5%?

At 7.5% it reduces the time to about 16 days...but if we reduced it to taking 5% off each time then it'd reduce it to about 18-19 days.
Does 18-19 days sound reasonable? You know, considering they'd need to do the activity every day.

EDIT: Those with subscriptions could get it done in 17-18 days (if the spreadsheet is showing me this correctly...probably not).

I don't suppose there's anyone that can confirm this?