Arato wrote: »

You know, I've been playing as if stamina doesn't regen while holding your shield up since they announced it and it feels kinda like dark souls, I like it actually. In Dark Souls you'll deplete your stam fast if you don't drop your shield in between blocking hits, the same thing will happen here. So you just have to manage when your shield is up and when it's down to regen stam.

The only thing that may need adjusted is how much stam regen tanks need to get, and maybe stam regen numbers might need to come up depending on what they find out on the PTR, so that dropping your blocking stance lets your stam refill pretty quickly.

But you are really not. Keep in mind stam regens only every 2 seconds on a tick if you block during that tick thats 4 seconds no stam regen. That means if you block at all you cant use any stamina based attacks.

We can only hope they are changing other stuff to allow tanks to regen stamina because the traditional stam regen stat will be damn near useless to us after this.

Keep in mind tanks often need to tank 2-3 sometimes 4 or 5 hard hitting mobs that could one shot the other players. Try timing those blocks and still have your block down for a few seconds to be sure you get your stam regen tick. You cant do it. You will get hit by some heavy attack that knocks you to the ground then you are down and most likely dead unless your healer is constantly spamming heals.

My thoughts on the issue from the PVE side: I think permablocking should go, but understand the current need to permablock arises from the constant high damage incoming in end game PVE that makes dropping block unfeasible. So here is my suggestion (applicable to all levels of PVE content):

Reduce the amount of damage done by enemy "basic" attacks.

Increase the amount of damage done by blockable or interruptable attacks and AOEs.


Basic attack damage should be low enough so that it can be handled by the tank's other defences like his armour, spell resist, shield stacks or heals without too much trouble, aka the tank should be able to withstand some basic attacks even without blocking. It will hurt, but won't necessarily kill him. The damage should however be significant enough such that the healer will find it hard to keep the tank alive if he doesn't block some of these basic attacks. The tank will thus still need to block, but can take a breather during the 'basic attack" sequences that every mob/boss does in between their skills and mechanics.

To compensate, and ensure that tanks are still required, increase damage done by "special" attacks (applicable to all mobs, not just bosses). Make it such that only tanks can survive heavy attacks or big AOEs from bosses. I don't care if it takes off 90% of his health in one hit. IMO, as a tank, your job is to take the big hits, not all the hits.

Making tanks more important will hopefully move this game away from the current "burn everything down before they can do their mechanics' kind of gameplay, which is really boring imo.

Hell, give the normal mobs more skills or CC to use. Anything to make PVE less stale.

Why does everything get changed to suit pvp why cant we have different settings it ruins dungeons and vet dungeons are hard you need good tanks and healers or your dps gets stomped on

Bashev wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

[*] Stendarr: Grants increased Stamina Regeneration while wielding a Shield for the blessed and nearby group members

Is it possible that this buff can be our salvation?

Well i tgought the same, but then, this is just dataminied and we can not sure this will actually come in game

Bashev wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

[*] Stendarr: Grants increased Stamina Regeneration while wielding a Shield for the blessed and nearby group members

Is it possible that this buff can be our salvation?

I got the impression that was in the new zone only. And increasing stamina regen is often done by a percent increase. And say 30% increase of zero is still zero. So no. Not unless they change all the fights where you just cant get away with letting block drop and make this some sort of buff we can always have.

The best thing i can think of to make it work is improving the heavy armor passive that gives back stam when you are hit.

Tankqull wrote: »

Hastings88 wrote: »

Why does everything get changed to suit pvp why cant we have different settings it ruins dungeons and vet dungeons are hard you need good tanks and healers or your dps gets stomped on

its intrestng that you assume that the current playstyle of tanks in PvE was ZOS´ playstyle goal ... (have in mind that every other defense requires an active player while tanking requires just some duct tape and a automouse tool taunting the boss infront of the char every 14 sec)

Stop setting up the straw man argument that tanking is somehow easier or less compelling game play than the other roles. It is wrong headed.

Any player of any role can choose to not do as much as they can. I played with a sorcerer up to round 10 in vdsa and they would not weave attacks. We had to kick this person. I played with a templar healer who refused to use their solar prison ultimate on Ra Kotu so that they could use a redundant war horn. Everyone thought the guy was a fool and eventually stopped playing with them.

Maybe there are tanks who "just hold block," but block casting isn't the reason they are not interacting with enemies and are board. It is those players, who aren't doing all that they can, which are the problem.

Tankqull wrote: »

well the difference is that a dd can make you fail even a vet dungeon if hes played only rudimantary, a tank beeing played that way is absolutly viable (done so a few times when beeing "simultanious" the group tank(on my laptop) and a DD)

Now let's bring up the stories of good tanks who carried their team members to a victory when a "just hold block" tank wouldn't have.

Basing an extreme change to the game on the bare minimum of what is viable is grasping at straws. We all know that someone who is "just holding block" isn't doing what they should be doing.

That sorcerer I mentioned hadn't weaved a day in their life. Not through any vet dungeons and not even through hard mode trials that they were brought to. Sorcerers or the DPS roll shouldn't be changed because of how board that type of player must get when constantly using crushing shock and spell symmetry over and over.

Does players who want to do the bare minimum justify a massive change to the game? No.

Does just doing the same thing over and over justify a massive change to the game? No. It is often an incorrect way of viewing what players are really doing.

Tankqull wrote: »

well the difference is that a dd can make you fail even a vet dungeon if hes played only rudimantary, a tank beeing played that way is absolutly viable (done so a few times when beeing "simultanious" the group tank(on my laptop) and a DD)

Now let's bring up the stories of good tanks who carried their team members to a victory when a "just hold block" tank wouldn't have.

Basing an extreme change to the game on the bare minimum of what is viable is grasping at straws. We all know that someone who is "just holding block" isn't doing what they should be doing.

That sorcerer I mentioned hadn't weaved a day in their life. Not through any vet dungeons and not even through hard mode trials that they were brought to. Sorcerers or the DPS roll shouldn't be changed because of how board that type of player must get when constantly using crushing shock and spell symmetry over and over.

Does players who want to do the bare minimum justify a massive change to the game? No.

Does just doing the same thing over and over justify a massive change to the game? No. It is often an incorrect way of viewing what players are really doing.

So, no 'just doing the same thing over and over' and 'players who want to do the bare minimum' don't justify a massive change to the game. What justifies a massive change to the game is a frustrating mechanic the detracts from a large portion of the game experience for a large number of players.

Good tanks will adapt quickly and probably come to enjoy the change, bad tanks will wait for the good tanks to adapt and either watch youtube videos, catch up and move on or whine until their friend who has caught up brings them up to speed again. I mean really how hard is it to take shards every 15 seconds, pop synergies, use potions pop ults like magma armour or bolstering darkness and heavy attack in the insane DR you get or the same with things like ward and sunshield (when of course you're not about to be smashed for 50k with a heavy attack or something).

Give it a chance man, adapt your build change your strategies move on, have some more fun.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

well the difference is that a dd can make you fail even a vet dungeon if hes played only rudimantary, a tank beeing played that way is absolutly viable (done so a few times when beeing "simultanious" the group tank(on my laptop) and a DD)

Now let's bring up the stories of good tanks who carried their team members to a victory when a "just hold block" tank wouldn't have.

Basing an extreme change to the game on the bare minimum of what is viable is grasping at straws. We all know that someone who is "just holding block" isn't doing what they should be doing.

That sorcerer I mentioned hadn't weaved a day in their life. Not through any vet dungeons and not even through hard mode trials that they were brought to. Sorcerers or the DPS roll shouldn't be changed because of how board that type of player must get when constantly using crushing shock and spell symmetry over and over.

Does players who want to do the bare minimum justify a massive change to the game? No.

Does just doing the same thing over and over justify a massive change to the game? No. It is often an incorrect way of viewing what players are really doing.

i´m not disagreeing, but blocking is the only defensive option that does not require the slightest thinking by the user, wich is obviously not part of the active gameplay ZOS aimed for - so the statement this change is based purely on PvP issues is BS as it obviously infringes with the goal of the combat system.

I just want to point something out. Tanks do more than Hold up Block. They avoid red circles that bosses drop everywhere. In fact they also try to herd the boss in such a way that those red circles don't mess up their team mates, among other things. They CC mobs and grab attention. They interrupt. One reason I enjoy tanking is that it requires a lot MORE thinking than ***-hum spamming a few dps abilities that I could easily macro on a Logitech keyboard or mouse (or really any gaming keyboard or mouse). Does that sound insulting to dps players? Yes. Its meant to make players feel a little uncomfortable about mocking a tank for using his shield, and yes it is an oversimplification about playing DPS. The truth remains that playing as a Tank is fun in large part because it is about herding the tempo of the battle to make it go smoothly for your team mates. Its insulting to sum it up as 'hold block and yay job done'.

Right, and a player who is doing all those things can't be holding block all the time, which means removal of stamina regen while blocking isn't going to affect them much.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

well the difference is that a dd can make you fail even a vet dungeon if hes played only rudimantary, a tank beeing played that way is absolutly viable (done so a few times when beeing "simultanious" the group tank(on my laptop) and a DD)

Now let's bring up the stories of good tanks who carried their team members to a victory when a "just hold block" tank wouldn't have.

Basing an extreme change to the game on the bare minimum of what is viable is grasping at straws. We all know that someone who is "just holding block" isn't doing what they should be doing.

That sorcerer I mentioned hadn't weaved a day in their life. Not through any vet dungeons and not even through hard mode trials that they were brought to. Sorcerers or the DPS roll shouldn't be changed because of how board that type of player must get when constantly using crushing shock and spell symmetry over and over.

Does players who want to do the bare minimum justify a massive change to the game? No.

Does just doing the same thing over and over justify a massive change to the game? No. It is often an incorrect way of viewing what players are really doing.

i´m not disagreeing, but blocking is the only defensive option that does not require the slightest thinking by the user, wich is obviously not part of the active gameplay ZOS aimed for - so the statement this change is based purely on PvP issues is BS as it obviously infringes with the goal of the combat system.

I just want to point something out. Tanks do more than Hold up Block. They avoid red circles that bosses drop everywhere. In fact they also try to herd the boss in such a way that those red circles don't mess up their team mates, among other things. They CC mobs and grab attention. They interrupt. One reason I enjoy tanking is that it requires a lot MORE thinking than ***-hum spamming a few dps abilities that I could easily macro on a Logitech keyboard or mouse (or really any gaming keyboard or mouse). Does that sound insulting to dps players? Yes. Its meant to make players feel a little uncomfortable about mocking a tank for using his shield, and yes it is an oversimplification about playing DPS. The truth remains that playing as a Tank is fun in large part because it is about herding the tempo of the battle to make it go smoothly for your team mates. Its insulting to sum it up as 'hold block and yay job done'.

Not to mention they are usually people who are capable of withstanding damage for long time so they can be often last change of survival when whole party is down and last stand tank gets to res everyone.

Enodoc wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

well the difference is that a dd can make you fail even a vet dungeon if hes played only rudimantary, a tank beeing played that way is absolutly viable (done so a few times when beeing "simultanious" the group tank(on my laptop) and a DD)

Now let's bring up the stories of good tanks who carried their team members to a victory when a "just hold block" tank wouldn't have.

Basing an extreme change to the game on the bare minimum of what is viable is grasping at straws. We all know that someone who is "just holding block" isn't doing what they should be doing.

That sorcerer I mentioned hadn't weaved a day in their life. Not through any vet dungeons and not even through hard mode trials that they were brought to. Sorcerers or the DPS roll shouldn't be changed because of how board that type of player must get when constantly using crushing shock and spell symmetry over and over.

Does players who want to do the bare minimum justify a massive change to the game? No.

Does just doing the same thing over and over justify a massive change to the game? No. It is often an incorrect way of viewing what players are really doing.

i´m not disagreeing, but blocking is the only defensive option that does not require the slightest thinking by the user, wich is obviously not part of the active gameplay ZOS aimed for - so the statement this change is based purely on PvP issues is BS as it obviously infringes with the goal of the combat system.

I just want to point something out. Tanks do more than Hold up Block. They avoid red circles that bosses drop everywhere. In fact they also try to herd the boss in such a way that those red circles don't mess up their team mates, among other things. They CC mobs and grab attention. They interrupt. One reason I enjoy tanking is that it requires a lot MORE thinking than ***-hum spamming a few dps abilities that I could easily macro on a Logitech keyboard or mouse (or really any gaming keyboard or mouse). Does that sound insulting to dps players? Yes. Its meant to make players feel a little uncomfortable about mocking a tank for using his shield, and yes it is an oversimplification about playing DPS. The truth remains that playing as a Tank is fun in large part because it is about herding the tempo of the battle to make it go smoothly for your team mates. Its insulting to sum it up as 'hold block and yay job done'.

Right, and a player who is doing all those things can't be holding block all the time, which means removal of stamina regen while blocking isn't going to affect them much.

Not affecting at all?

After "0 stamina regen while blocking" *** nerf cus of PVP whiners:

- blocking cost stamina, tanks drained of stamina
- synergies? heavy attacks? drop shield in wrong momnent because of ESO lags, PVP whiners are spamming server for some silly war, or tank is blocking several monsters at same time with every hitting him in different moment

And for all those "hurr durr tanking is just spam blocking". Just like mentioned above:
- avoiding red circles; sprinting cost stamina, rolling cost stamina
- grab attention cost stamina
- interrupt mostly with bash cost stamina
- team is down? gotta res someone? tank with most defense is last man standing and gotta save party? Running, avoiding cost stamina

TOO BAD that after blocking which is tanks job, they wont have ANY OF RESOURCES to do all of these above.

It affects tanks in every possible way, it will PREVENT them from doing anything else than just blocking and taunting because they wont have resources to do it.

Removing stamina regeneration while blocking will make tanking boring and will dumb things down. Completly opposite of what it is now.

I've been playing around in pledges, dsa, trials with my tank, experimenting with less blocking. It's definitely doable, especially if you have the right team to support you. Did i read somewhere that they were removing over-taunting from the game, would allow me to get more from my master 1H sword. Some instances like the axes in AA are definitely a challenge, but I've had decent (not guaranteed) success combining various methods of defense to lessen the burden of block.

I've changed up my build for this type of play-style, it's definitely more engaging (more "fun") so i will wait to see how it works on PTS before judging.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

What justifies a massive change to the game is a frustrating mechanic the detracts from a large portion of the game experience for a large number of players.

You are saying that holding block is a frustrating mechanic that detracts from a large portion of the game experiences for a large number of players.

You are implying that having to release block and then block isn't going to be a frustrating mechanic that detracts from a large portion of the game experience for a large number of players.

You are incorrect on both accounts.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

What justifies a massive change to the game is a frustrating mechanic the detracts from a large portion of the game experience for a large number of players.

You are saying that holding block is a frustrating mechanic that detracts from a large portion of the game experiences for a large number of players.

You are implying that having to release block and then block isn't going to be a frustrating mechanic that detracts from a large portion of the game experience for a large number of players.

You are incorrect on both accounts.

Block casting is still currently a problem in PVP and does make bringing some people down a nightmare (especially given their relative damage output)<THE BRACKETS ARE IMPORTANT HERE. As for having to release block, there's only two instances I know of personally where that could even pose a slight problem (axes and VDSA) and the answer to that is simple > pop magma armour or bolstering darkness or stack shields and heavy attack for as long as you have the massive DR.

Block change is a good idea for pve and pvp - tanking should require more player skill then holding block constantly and casting taunts in pve. More player skill involved = good, timing of boss attacks for vdsa and trials should be adjusted where needed to acommodate timed blocking.

AngryNord wrote: »

You guys know you can send /feedback in-game, right?

Consoles can't.