Darklord_Tiberius wrote: »> Aside from the fact that ZOS creates significant anti-social situations such as reduced XP for a groups of more than 2 combined with a new vertical progression system and no new content.
> And regardless of whether or not you think grinding is acceptable
> In the event you are grinding mobs with another player and another one shows up and rapidly starts tagging your pulls (leeching XP) and also jumping in front of mobs and killing them when you pull them. Several attempts are made to communicate with this player to no avail and they are clearly not just ignorant to their actions but intentionally dismissing the impact to your quality of game-play.
Should you (poll options)?
Defined: Griefing is the act of chronically causing consternation to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting the immersion of another player in their gameplay.
lol....
You would have never survived in WoW if this is considered griefing for you. WoW would have eaten you alive son.
I usually do not see an issue with grind spots because if someone is already there, I can' run the pattern I want anyway, so I go somewhere else. It's not so much good manners but for me, efficient grinding means killing as many mobs as I can in the least amount of time. If I can't get near max mob rate, I I don't bother.
However the other day I was at 13.8 on my Sorcerer. I went to an area that has a large grind spot in two main areas. There was already a duo there doing a pattern covering the whole area. I camped out on one side, the smaller area and ground out the few mobs I needed to get to VR14 then I left. I did not stop them from grinding, just reduced their output some. Another time in the same area, someone invited me to group with them, so I did for a while.
But if a grind spot is active, I tend to go find another one or come back.
Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »I would be seriously surprised if reporting players you think are griefing, especially in this example, was taken seriously by ZOS. And just how long should someone who comes upon you grinding be expected to wait before it's 'their turn'?
Hm, I'd be surprised if they didn't . If you don't know why, I'd recommend re-reading the ToS we all agreed to when we bought and installed the game, activating our accounts only after accepting. Let's check off the ways it would be judged easily as griefing in the OP's scenario...
The OP's description of griefing is a commonly accepted and widely understood reference: "Griefing is the act of chronically causing consternation to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting another player in their gameplay."
So, does this fit? Let's look at it:
-Mechanic: XP, the primary goal of gameplay in this scenario, is reduced for the victim by the other player's actions.
-Behavior: Another player repeatedly, purposefully, and persistently works to interrupt the victim's progress and annoy them.
-Resolution attempt: The victim tries to communicate with the other player to request they stop this action, and ensure that they understand the consequences of their actions.
-Result: The other player either insultingly, or even politely, shrugs off their disruptive behavior and continues to pester the victim.
Yes, it absolutely does. Griefing is indeed against the ToS, to boot. The scenario the OP is outlining isn't of another player simply hitting a couple of monsters, or even doing it a bunch of times to try to earn XP themselves in normal gameplay. It is of another player continuously and with ill intent trying to harass the victim, here.
On a personal basis? I just out-do people such as this hypothetical other player, when it's attempted on my grinding. I have yet to ever report someone to a GM for it, nor do I plan to. However, if it is escalated to rude communication and it becomes obvious that the other player is simply doing it to grief... there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone reporting them. The rules are there, because they are rules. They're not just sitting there to be annoying each time you install the game on a new computer and have to scroll past them to accept.
Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »I would be seriously surprised if reporting players you think are griefing, especially in this example, was taken seriously by ZOS. And just how long should someone who comes upon you grinding be expected to wait before it's 'their turn'?
Hm, I'd be surprised if they didn't . If you don't know why, I'd recommend re-reading the ToS we all agreed to when we bought and installed the game, activating our accounts only after accepting. Let's check off the ways it would be judged easily as griefing in the OP's scenario...
The OP's description of griefing is a commonly accepted and widely understood reference: "Griefing is the act of chronically causing consternation to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting another player in their gameplay."
So, does this fit? Let's look at it:
-Mechanic: XP, the primary goal of gameplay in this scenario, is reduced for the victim by the other player's actions.
-Behavior: Another player repeatedly, purposefully, and persistently works to interrupt the victim's progress and annoy them.
-Resolution attempt: The victim tries to communicate with the other player to request they stop this action, and ensure that they understand the consequences of their actions.
-Result: The other player either insultingly, or even politely, shrugs off their disruptive behavior and continues to pester the victim.
Yes, it absolutely does. Griefing is indeed against the ToS, to boot. The scenario the OP is outlining isn't of another player simply hitting a couple of monsters, or even doing it a bunch of times to try to earn XP themselves in normal gameplay. It is of another player continuously and with ill intent trying to harass the victim, here.
On a personal basis? I just out-do people such as this hypothetical other player, when it's attempted on my grinding. I have yet to ever report someone to a GM for it, nor do I plan to. However, if it is escalated to rude communication and it becomes obvious that the other player is simply doing it to grief... there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone reporting them. The rules are there, because they are rules. They're not just sitting there to be annoying each time you install the game on a new computer and have to scroll past them to accept.
^ Very well stated...
That is other than use of word "victim" which IMO is disempowerment... but only nit picking to jest as I know you didn't mean it that way.
I'd have thought all you grinders would be a little more discreet posting on the forums, especially given ZOS' track record with them. Can't imagine it would be hard to trace where your characters have been to nerf those spots too.
Frankly this is a non-issue, the game is designed to encourage sharing mobs by giving xp to any party who contributes. As I see it, it's working as intended. The problem is not a TOS violation, but rather a psychological one. You need to get it out of your head that they are stealing, because they really are not. Is it annoying? I'll give you that one, but it's all perfectly fair.
Filing reports does nothing but detract from the time the gm's have to solve real problems, and worse file too many false reports and you risk disciplinary action instead.
No, the more clever thing to do would be to make that spot public knowledge, then move on to another area. Let that person share xp with a few hundred players. That would be the correct thing to do.
ZOS already knows of every spot we grind. They have a BI group that feeds stats to the dev team. As you'll see, I'm always keen to never mention where I grind as a bunch of players flocking to those spots is certainly a risk.
Wrong on the game being designed to encourage sharing... The game only gives XP to the first 2 players. Anything higher than 2 the XP is significantly reduced for all players. It's very demotivating and sets the stage for animosity between players. This just promotes isolation when players vertical progression relies solely on XP.
See, my point is exactly your last statement.. To recommend causing issues for others, just to better your own situation... So what happens next is the other group retaliates and it becomes a viscous cycle of creating pain for others just so you can have what you want. Then players flock to the forums and expect mom and dad (aka ZOS) to fix the problems that they willingly created, but want to play no part in resolving. No, not clever.
ZOS already knows of every spot we grind. They have a BI group that feeds stats to the dev team. As you'll see, I'm always keen to never mention where I grind as a bunch of players flocking to those spots is certainly a risk.
This wouldn't be an issue if other players weren't already flocking to your location.Wrong on the game being designed to encourage sharing... The game only gives XP to the first 2 players. Anything higher than 2 the XP is significantly reduced for all players. It's very demotivating and sets the stage for animosity between players. This just promotes isolation when players vertical progression relies solely on XP.
Except I'm not wrong, the xp definitely gets divided amongst all that contribute. Is it less then you'd get alone, of course that's how division works. But the time to kill goes down as well. Could the formula be adjusted, sure, but that's a matter for another thread. The fact is everyone who contributes gets xp.
See, my point is exactly your last statement.. To recommend causing issues for others, just to better your own situation... So what happens next is the other group retaliates and it becomes a viscous cycle of creating pain for others just so you can have what you want. Then players flock to the forums and expect mom and dad (aka ZOS) to fix the problems that they willingly created, but want to play no part in resolving. No, not clever.
So filing a false report on someone is ok but sharing a grinding location isn't? Seems my solution is the lesser of the two evils
Please bring back the LOL button.
Grinders by their nature are Grievers. They have no respect for anyone doing PvE they claim areas like the own the property rights. They are even rude to other single grinders and steal as much as they can. I have met very few that are courteous.
You've helped reinforce what I am hoping to highlight and discuss with players... The situations that this concerns is when I've attempted to add the newly arrived player as last resort in many cases (prior to me leaving so that only 2 remain) and in these scenarios, the group attempt is ignored. So, the point is... I want those that are in fact as you mentioned to try to be more thoughtful of others.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
You've helped reinforce what I am hoping to highlight and discuss with players... The situations that this concerns is when I've attempted to add the newly arrived player as last resort in many cases (prior to me leaving so that only 2 remain) and in these scenarios, the group attempt is ignored. So, the point is... I want those that are in fact as you mentioned to try to be more thoughtful of others.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
IrishGirlGamer wrote: »Someone that's seriously trying to grind, even at a low level (for example, at Vivec's Antlers) is going to run into to players trying to complete the quests that center on that area. It's not fun to play into an area and have a group kill all your mobs. It's not fun for either party to try and fight through that.
I guess I see this as a design problem and not a player problem.
Yes mobs are for everyone, no one owns them yadda yadda... Please say it again though as if you're actually informing me or others of something new. Full of entertainment. The point here is that grinding is a form of game-play, just like questing. No the mobs are not owned, neither are quest NPC's, but the enjoyment for others can be interfered with just the same.
Attorneyatlawl wrote: »eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.You've helped reinforce what I am hoping to highlight and discuss with players... The situations that this concerns is when I've attempted to add the newly arrived player as last resort in many cases (prior to me leaving so that only 2 remain) and in these scenarios, the group attempt is ignored. So, the point is... I want those that are in fact as you mentioned to try to be more thoughtful of others.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
Approaching people not wanting to, for absolutely no benefit to themselves, lose a full third (33%) of the EXP they're earning when they already were there in the first place and do not need you for any reason, and demanding that they group you or be thought of as... well, what you just referred to them as.... does that not essentially mean you're actually acting the way you're saying you don't want other people to act? In this situation, you're asking them for a favor. You aren't asking, if you demand it.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Grinders are the one responsible for re-balances and adjustments that screw up things for all others who play the game the way it is intended to be played (questing, discovery, story, combat tactics).
Grinders are responsible for great content being so XP-nerfed that it has become useless to play for everyone (Craglorn).
Grinders are responsible for breaking regular players' immersion.
Grinders are responsible for leaving regular players waiting to get their "normal quest boss" respawning.
And so on...
And now grinders want an "etiquette" to be able to do even more damage quietly ?
I'm speechless.
Now the OP specifically mentions that it depends on the "intend" of the so-called "invader". Problem is, how do you read other people's minds and specific intention ? At best, they just want to do exactly the same thing as you do. With a minimum self-honesty, it should make you realize how disturbing your own behaviour is to others.
If you wanna grind they're not much ZOS or other players can do about it, but grinders imho should have the lowest priority on anything - after questers, after RPers, after anything really. So asking for "territory priority" or "mob property" is wayyy out of line.
How do you think I feel when I am quietly practicing a new rotation on mammoths and giants in The Rift (VR10 for me, only proper solo training-targets since we have no dummies in game) and grinders arrive and destroy the entire place for HOURS ???
Just my opinion and experience.