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Grinding Etiquette

  • Sacadon
    Sacadon
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    Sacadon wrote: »
    > Aside from the fact that ZOS creates significant anti-social situations such as reduced XP for a groups of more than 2 combined with a new vertical progression system and no new content.

    > And regardless of whether or not you think grinding is acceptable

    > In the event you are grinding mobs with another player and another one shows up and rapidly starts tagging your pulls (leeching XP) and also jumping in front of mobs and killing them when you pull them. Several attempts are made to communicate with this player to no avail and they are clearly not just ignorant to their actions but intentionally dismissing the impact to your quality of game-play.

    Should you (poll options)?

    Defined: Griefing is the act of chronically causing consternation to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting the immersion of another player in their gameplay.

    lol....

    You would have never survived in WoW if this is considered griefing for you. WoW would have eaten you alive son.

    Edit: Although I know you did not intend it as such, I sincerely take your statement as a compliment. I consider gaming purely something for enjoyment and not a measure of anything else.

    So, environments where others more frequently put their wants at such a priority that they are willing to take from others in ways they know are negative are simply not for me. This does not include PvP which is what I enjoy most. Clear as mud right...

    Edited by Sacadon on July 6, 2015 5:38PM
  • Sacadon
    Sacadon
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    Nestor wrote: »
    I usually do not see an issue with grind spots because if someone is already there, I can' run the pattern I want anyway, so I go somewhere else. It's not so much good manners but for me, efficient grinding means killing as many mobs as I can in the least amount of time. If I can't get near max mob rate, I I don't bother.

    However the other day I was at 13.8 on my Sorcerer. I went to an area that has a large grind spot in two main areas. There was already a duo there doing a pattern covering the whole area. I camped out on one side, the smaller area and ground out the few mobs I needed to get to VR14 then I left. I did not stop them from grinding, just reduced their output some. Another time in the same area, someone invited me to group with them, so I did for a while.

    But if a grind spot is active, I tend to go find another one or come back.

    ^ Another one that gets how to help keep our game healthy.
  • Sacadon
    Sacadon
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    Ourorboros wrote: »
    I would be seriously surprised if reporting players you think are griefing, especially in this example, was taken seriously by ZOS. And just how long should someone who comes upon you grinding be expected to wait before it's 'their turn'?

    Hm, I'd be surprised if they didn't ;). If you don't know why, I'd recommend re-reading the ToS we all agreed to when we bought and installed the game, activating our accounts only after accepting. Let's check off the ways it would be judged easily as griefing in the OP's scenario...

    The OP's description of griefing is a commonly accepted and widely understood reference: "Griefing is the act of chronically causing consternation to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting another player in their gameplay."

    So, does this fit? Let's look at it:

    -Mechanic: XP, the primary goal of gameplay in this scenario, is reduced for the victim by the other player's actions.
    -Behavior: Another player repeatedly, purposefully, and persistently works to interrupt the victim's progress and annoy them.
    -Resolution attempt: The victim tries to communicate with the other player to request they stop this action, and ensure that they understand the consequences of their actions.
    -Result: The other player either insultingly, or even politely, shrugs off their disruptive behavior and continues to pester the victim.

    Yes, it absolutely does. Griefing is indeed against the ToS, to boot. The scenario the OP is outlining isn't of another player simply hitting a couple of monsters, or even doing it a bunch of times to try to earn XP themselves in normal gameplay. It is of another player continuously and with ill intent trying to harass the victim, here.

    On a personal basis? I just out-do people such as this hypothetical other player, when it's attempted on my grinding. I have yet to ever report someone to a GM for it, nor do I plan to. However, if it is escalated to rude communication and it becomes obvious that the other player is simply doing it to grief... there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone reporting them. The rules are there, because they are rules. They're not just sitting there to be annoying each time you install the game on a new computer and have to scroll past them to accept.

    ^ Very well stated...

    That is other than use of word "victim" which IMO is disempowerment... but only nit picking to jest as I know you didn't mean it that way.
  • Heruthema
    Heruthema
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    Sacadon wrote: »
    Ourorboros wrote: »
    I would be seriously surprised if reporting players you think are griefing, especially in this example, was taken seriously by ZOS. And just how long should someone who comes upon you grinding be expected to wait before it's 'their turn'?

    Hm, I'd be surprised if they didn't ;). If you don't know why, I'd recommend re-reading the ToS we all agreed to when we bought and installed the game, activating our accounts only after accepting. Let's check off the ways it would be judged easily as griefing in the OP's scenario...

    The OP's description of griefing is a commonly accepted and widely understood reference: "Griefing is the act of chronically causing consternation to other members of an online community, or more specifically, intentionally disrupting another player in their gameplay."

    So, does this fit? Let's look at it:

    -Mechanic: XP, the primary goal of gameplay in this scenario, is reduced for the victim by the other player's actions.
    -Behavior: Another player repeatedly, purposefully, and persistently works to interrupt the victim's progress and annoy them.
    -Resolution attempt: The victim tries to communicate with the other player to request they stop this action, and ensure that they understand the consequences of their actions.
    -Result: The other player either insultingly, or even politely, shrugs off their disruptive behavior and continues to pester the victim.

    Yes, it absolutely does. Griefing is indeed against the ToS, to boot. The scenario the OP is outlining isn't of another player simply hitting a couple of monsters, or even doing it a bunch of times to try to earn XP themselves in normal gameplay. It is of another player continuously and with ill intent trying to harass the victim, here.

    On a personal basis? I just out-do people such as this hypothetical other player, when it's attempted on my grinding. I have yet to ever report someone to a GM for it, nor do I plan to. However, if it is escalated to rude communication and it becomes obvious that the other player is simply doing it to grief... there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone reporting them. The rules are there, because they are rules. They're not just sitting there to be annoying each time you install the game on a new computer and have to scroll past them to accept.

    ^ Very well stated...

    That is other than use of word "victim" which IMO is disempowerment... but only nit picking to jest as I know you didn't mean it that way.

    Please bring back the LOL button.
    Grinders by their nature are Grievers. They have no respect for anyone doing PvE they claim areas like the own the property rights. They are even rude to other single grinders and steal as much as they can. I have met very few that are courteous.

  • seratin
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    Call on your grinding buds to out-grind them so they do nothing but waste time
    I'd have thought all you grinders would be a little more discreet posting on the forums, especially given ZOS' track record with them. Can't imagine it would be hard to trace where your characters have been to nerf those spots too.

    Frankly this is a non-issue, the game is designed to encourage sharing mobs by giving xp to any party who contributes. As I see it, it's working as intended. The problem is not a TOS violation, but rather a psychological one. You need to get it out of your head that they are stealing, because they really are not. Is it annoying? I'll give you that one, but it's all perfectly fair.

    Filing reports does nothing but detract from the time the gm's have to solve real problems, and worse file too many false reports and you risk disciplinary action instead.

    No, the more clever thing to do would be to make that spot public knowledge, then move on to another area. Let that person share xp with a few hundred players. That would be the correct thing to do.
  • Muizer
    Muizer
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    Immediately leave and do nothing more
    Leave immediately. All grinding is potentially disruptive to normal gameplay, so it's good advise to take in any circumstance.
    Please stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!
  • Sacadon
    Sacadon
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    seratin wrote: »
    I'd have thought all you grinders would be a little more discreet posting on the forums, especially given ZOS' track record with them. Can't imagine it would be hard to trace where your characters have been to nerf those spots too.

    Frankly this is a non-issue, the game is designed to encourage sharing mobs by giving xp to any party who contributes. As I see it, it's working as intended. The problem is not a TOS violation, but rather a psychological one. You need to get it out of your head that they are stealing, because they really are not. Is it annoying? I'll give you that one, but it's all perfectly fair.

    Filing reports does nothing but detract from the time the gm's have to solve real problems, and worse file too many false reports and you risk disciplinary action instead.

    No, the more clever thing to do would be to make that spot public knowledge, then move on to another area. Let that person share xp with a few hundred players. That would be the correct thing to do.

    ZOS already knows of every spot we grind. They have a BI group that feeds stats to the dev team. As you'll see, I'm always keen to never mention where I grind as a bunch of players flocking to those spots is certainly a risk.

    Wrong on the game being designed to encourage sharing... The game only gives XP to the first 2 players. Anything higher than 2 the XP is significantly reduced for all players. It's very demotivating and sets the stage for animosity between players. This just promotes isolation when players vertical progression relies solely on XP.

    See, my point is exactly your last statement.. To recommend causing issues for others, just to better your own situation... So what happens next is the other group retaliates and it becomes a viscous cycle of creating pain for others just so you can have what you want. Then players flock to the forums and expect mom and dad (aka ZOS) to fix the problems that they willingly created, but want to play no part in resolving. No, not clever.




  • seratin
    seratin
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    Call on your grinding buds to out-grind them so they do nothing but waste time
    Sacadon wrote: »
    ZOS already knows of every spot we grind. They have a BI group that feeds stats to the dev team. As you'll see, I'm always keen to never mention where I grind as a bunch of players flocking to those spots is certainly a risk.

    This wouldn't be an issue if other players weren't already flocking to your location.
    Sacadon wrote: »
    Wrong on the game being designed to encourage sharing... The game only gives XP to the first 2 players. Anything higher than 2 the XP is significantly reduced for all players. It's very demotivating and sets the stage for animosity between players. This just promotes isolation when players vertical progression relies solely on XP.

    Except I'm not wrong, the xp definitely gets divided amongst all that contribute. Is it less then you'd get alone, of course that's how division works. But the time to kill goes down as well. Could the formula be adjusted, sure, but that's a matter for another thread. The fact is everyone who contributes gets xp.

    Sacadon wrote: »
    See, my point is exactly your last statement.. To recommend causing issues for others, just to better your own situation... So what happens next is the other group retaliates and it becomes a viscous cycle of creating pain for others just so you can have what you want. Then players flock to the forums and expect mom and dad (aka ZOS) to fix the problems that they willingly created, but want to play no part in resolving. No, not clever.

    So filing a false report on someone is ok but sharing a grinding location isn't? Seems my solution is the lesser of the two evils
    Edited by seratin on July 6, 2015 6:39PM
  • Sacadon
    Sacadon
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    seratin wrote: »
    Sacadon wrote: »
    ZOS already knows of every spot we grind. They have a BI group that feeds stats to the dev team. As you'll see, I'm always keen to never mention where I grind as a bunch of players flocking to those spots is certainly a risk.

    This wouldn't be an issue if other players weren't already flocking to your location.
    Sacadon wrote: »
    Wrong on the game being designed to encourage sharing... The game only gives XP to the first 2 players. Anything higher than 2 the XP is significantly reduced for all players. It's very demotivating and sets the stage for animosity between players. This just promotes isolation when players vertical progression relies solely on XP.

    Except I'm not wrong, the xp definitely gets divided amongst all that contribute. Is it less then you'd get alone, of course that's how division works. But the time to kill goes down as well. Could the formula be adjusted, sure, but that's a matter for another thread. The fact is everyone who contributes gets xp.

    Fair enough, all gets XP yes. But that's not the point of this thread. The point is, when others knowingly take your XP and it's clear without doubt they know they are. BTW, the TTK math doesn't workout for large groups. It's better to farm lower XP areas solo than group at reduced rates. Craglorn pre-nerf was the exception to this.
    seratin wrote: »
    Sacadon wrote: »
    See, my point is exactly your last statement.. To recommend causing issues for others, just to better your own situation... So what happens next is the other group retaliates and it becomes a viscous cycle of creating pain for others just so you can have what you want. Then players flock to the forums and expect mom and dad (aka ZOS) to fix the problems that they willingly created, but want to play no part in resolving. No, not clever.

    So filing a false report on someone is ok but sharing a grinding location isn't? Seems my solution is the lesser of the two evils

    As you'll see, I don't condone filing a report... Just leaving after failed attempts to reach a solution. Which is lesser, no evil required.



  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    Uh there are always other grinding spots. Most grinders are the laziest players I know....they don't research anything, they just come here or ask in game for grinding spots, they get one answer and then go right at it. This way 100s of players go to the same spot and that is where the problem lies.

    I have traveled almost every inch of every zone and have 10+ grinding spots to go to at any one time. If someone chooses to invade an area for whatever reason (grinder or quester) I don't get my panties in a bunch, I just go to another spot that's open.

    The answer to this issue is giving us grinders a place to grind that is instanced. Much like the FG and skyreach grinds. That way we're given our own area with no possibility of grief from questers or leechers. Make it soloable but with better rewards for two ppl. And make it on par with other current grinds so as not to be exploitable or game breaking.

    Right now we have dsa which is actually one of the best places to grind CPs atm. Some of us are even able to solo it B)
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • Attorneyatlawl
    Attorneyatlawl
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    Report them for griefing and leave
    Heruthema wrote: »
    Please bring back the LOL button.
    Grinders by their nature are Grievers. They have no respect for anyone doing PvE they claim areas like the own the property rights. They are even rude to other single grinders and steal as much as they can. I have met very few that are courteous.

    Hrm... if I've got this right, you're saying that someone going into an already-occupied and public space in-game, knowing full well that it not only reduces your own XP gains, but actively hurts others' to boot, is not being rude, but rather that the people who were there first and already playing, trying to carry on with what they were already doing and even possibly asking that you respect the area and don't slow down both them and yourself, is rude? Correct me of course if I'm wrong :).
    Edited by Attorneyatlawl on July 6, 2015 7:30PM
    -First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
    Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!

    -Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
    ________________
    -In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
    eventide03b14a_ESO
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    How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
    :trollin:
  • Sacadon
    Sacadon
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    How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
    You've helped reinforce what I am hoping to highlight and discuss with players... The situations that this concerns is when I've attempted to add the newly arrived player as last resort in many cases (prior to me leaving so that only 2 remain) and in these scenarios, the group attempt is ignored. So, the point is... I want those that are in fact as you mentioned to try to be more thoughtful of others.



  • Attorneyatlawl
    Attorneyatlawl
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    Report them for griefing and leave
    How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
    Sacadon wrote: »
    How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
    You've helped reinforce what I am hoping to highlight and discuss with players... The situations that this concerns is when I've attempted to add the newly arrived player as last resort in many cases (prior to me leaving so that only 2 remain) and in these scenarios, the group attempt is ignored. So, the point is... I want those that are in fact as you mentioned to try to be more thoughtful of others.

    Approaching people not wanting to, for absolutely no benefit to themselves, lose a full third (33%) of the EXP they're earning when they already were there in the first place and do not need you for any reason, and demanding that they group you or be thought of as... well, what you just referred to them as.... does that not essentially mean you're actually acting the way you're saying you don't want other people to act? In this situation, you're asking them for a favor. You aren't asking, if you demand it.
    -First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
    Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!

    -Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
    ________________
    -In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.
  • IrishGirlGamer
    IrishGirlGamer
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    I've never experienced any problem with grinders in the game. In fact, I probably didn't even notice them - until this weekend.

    While running through some quests on EP, someone whispered and asked if I was grinding. When I explained what I was doing, they said they were grinding and would wait for me to play through. They were considerate, and I thanked them, end of story.

    Then I saw this thread.

    All debate aside, what is considered etiquette in a game where (1) you are often asked to kill 5 or 8 mobs to complete a quest and (2) delaying completion of the quest means you're now over-leveled and won't get the drops?

    Someone that's seriously trying to grind, even at a low level (for example, at Vivec's Antlers) is going to run into to players trying to complete the quests that center on that area. It's not fun to play into an area and have a group kill all your mobs. It's not fun for either party to try and fight through that.

    I guess I see this as a design problem and not a player problem. This is the genius of the mega-server.

    Valar Morghulis.

    Someday I'm going to put a sword through your eye and out the back of your skull. Arya Stark

    You're going to die tomorrow, Lord Bolton. Sleep well. Sansa Stark

    If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. Desmond Tutu
  • Cuyler
    Cuyler
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    Someone that's seriously trying to grind, even at a low level (for example, at Vivec's Antlers) is going to run into to players trying to complete the quests that center on that area. It's not fun to play into an area and have a group kill all your mobs. It's not fun for either party to try and fight through that.

    I guess I see this as a design problem and not a player problem.

    You're right, It is a design problem. Forcing grinders into overland areas is the root of it. If xp we're comparable in say, instances....these problems wouldn't exist. Everyone would have they're own mobs to do with whatever they like.

    dsa is probably the only place I know atm that is an instanced, decent grind that hasn't been nerfed. Currently it's keeping 100s if not 1000s of players out of overland areas where they would normally be grinding. This is a very good thing for everyone.
    Guild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
    CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
    "How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]
  • Cernow
    Cernow
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    Sacadon wrote: »
    Yes mobs are for everyone, no one owns them yadda yadda... Please say it again though as if you're actually informing me or others of something new. Full of entertainment. The point here is that grinding is a form of game-play, just like questing. No the mobs are not owned, neither are quest NPC's, but the enjoyment for others can be interfered with just the same.

    If you want to play the "tell me something new" card, it's not like this sort of discussion over grinding etiquette is some new MMO phenomenon. Competition for grinding spots has been going on since MMOs first started and was actually worse in a lot of older titles where leveling relied almost exclusively on grinding mobs and camping certain spawns, rather than questing.

    But the vast majority of players in those older titles found a way to deal with it without getting into fights or escalating things to the GMs. Communcation, compromise and community, not throwing around accusations of griefing and filing harassment reports. But those older titles had a genuine community where a player could gain a bad reputation that would follow them and might prevent them joining groups and guilds etc. On a megaserver it's all rather more anonymous and easier for players to get away with rude and selfish behaviour.


  • Sacadon
    Sacadon
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    How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
    Sacadon wrote: »
    How about you just invite them into your group? Maybe you shouldn't be playing an MMO if you want to be an antisocial ***.
    You've helped reinforce what I am hoping to highlight and discuss with players... The situations that this concerns is when I've attempted to add the newly arrived player as last resort in many cases (prior to me leaving so that only 2 remain) and in these scenarios, the group attempt is ignored. So, the point is... I want those that are in fact as you mentioned to try to be more thoughtful of others.

    Approaching people not wanting to, for absolutely no benefit to themselves, lose a full third (33%) of the EXP they're earning when they already were there in the first place and do not need you for any reason, and demanding that they group you or be thought of as... well, what you just referred to them as.... does that not essentially mean you're actually acting the way you're saying you don't want other people to act? In this situation, you're asking them for a favor. You aren't asking, if you demand it.

    Not sure if that's for me or not... In case you are... Agreed in that I don't expect them to join given the XP drop and is why if it doesn't work then I leave, if it does work and they join, I still leave. I certainly don't demand it... That would be silly.


  • Grunim
    Grunim
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    Grinders are the one responsible for re-balances and adjustments that screw up things for all others who play the game the way it is intended to be played (questing, discovery, story, combat tactics).
    Grinders are responsible for great content being so XP-nerfed that it has become useless to play for everyone (Craglorn).
    Grinders are responsible for breaking regular players' immersion.
    Grinders are responsible for leaving regular players waiting to get their "normal quest boss" respawning.
    And so on...

    And now grinders want an "etiquette" to be able to do even more damage quietly ?

    I'm speechless.

    Now the OP specifically mentions that it depends on the "intend" of the so-called "invader". Problem is, how do you read other people's minds and specific intention ? At best, they just want to do exactly the same thing as you do. With a minimum self-honesty, it should make you realize how disturbing your own behaviour is to others.

    If you wanna grind they're not much ZOS or other players can do about it, but grinders imho should have the lowest priority on anything - after questers, after RPers, after anything really. So asking for "territory priority" or "mob property" is wayyy out of line.

    How do you think I feel when I am quietly practicing a new rotation on mammoths and giants in The Rift (VR10 for me, only proper solo training-targets since we have no dummies in game) and grinders arrive and destroy the entire place for HOURS ???

    Just my opinion and experience.

    BTW, if you are looking for giants, there is a Giant Camp just north of Bleakers Outpost in Cyrodiil. They are V12 currently and it's a good spot to get the Humanoid Slayer achievement.

    Am a whimsical Generation Jones gamer. Online RPGs hooked me since '94 and no sign of stopping soon...


  • LordBurl
    LordBurl
    Soul Shriven
    Immediately leave and do nothing more
    I thought ESO was going to have it set up so that all players got the same XP, in order to avoid this exact situation??? On topic, I would just move on, as it is not a big deal to me.
  • Lisbette
    Lisbette
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    This is an MMO. No one has claims over grinding mobs, and it is not "your" grinding spot. It can be anyone's. So when I see someone grinding where I'm grinding, I leave and come back after about an hour.

    No, I don't "politely ask someone to leave", because there's no such thing as leeching XP. It's just an MMO, get used to it. It's not "griefing" when someone is killing the mobs you're grinding. You're not the only person that grinds in this game.
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