PvE Tanking Future. - DO NOT GET RID OF STAM REGEN WHILE BLOCKING IN PVE

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

"High tier players" go all out weapon damage / spell damage, and you do run out of resources (atleast as stamina DPS), at which point you drink a potion, heavy attack cancel, or have a templar drop spear on you.

Not anymore, because apparently now tanks will be nomming all the spears, as per your suggestions, Mr VR14 Nightblade PVP veteran Tank specialist.

Then poor DPSes will start whining they arent grabbing spears fast enough and they are out of stamina and all the tanks will be like "we warned you months ago, you didnt listen".

Bromburak · July 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Come on guys, this is not going to be an issue. You can use synergies, potions and how about lowering your block for 1 or 2 seconds to fullfull 1 heavy attack to restore a big amount of your stamina ? You could also put a stamina absorb glyph on your weapon, maybe combined with a powered or infused trait. There are enough ways to restore stamina and then you can safely block for a very long time.

There are always opportunites, where you don't have to block for a few seconds. More than enough to get some regen ticks or executing some heavy attacks to restore stamina. Also the Templar spear synergy will become even more important and since Templars are in each good and reasonable group, they will provide you with enough stamina to block.

If this is the new guide for DSA you have a lot of humor.

Don't panic folks. Things get more challeging now for everyone and I'm excited for it. I think, tank is the easiest and most boring role of all. I just stand there and hold down my block and nothing hurst me anyway. Not it's getting more interactive and I will love using my weapon enchant and heavy attacks to restore my stamina.

You have no clue how playing a tank when its required. Thats ok, but after this statement I just hope that you never play in groups and never ask for a tank ingame because its obvious that you don't need and appreciate your team mates.

Have fun!

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Really? You need to think that again in the context of Streak, dodge roll, damage shield and healing nerfs in Cyrodill that happen in Update 7 simultaneously with the block changes.

Look at the topic. This is PvE discussion, with all respect i dont care about PVP cyrodill whines which cause situations like this, hurting all PvE players.

DDuke · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

"High tier players" go all out weapon damage / spell damage, and you do run out of resources (atleast as stamina DPS), at which point you drink a potion, heavy attack cancel, or have a templar drop spear on you.

Not anymore, because apparently now tanks will be nomming all the spears, as per your suggestions, Mr VR14 Nightblade PVP veteran Tank specialist.

Then poor DPSes will start whining they arent grabbing spears fast enough and they are out of stamina and all the tanks will be like "we warned you months ago, you didnt listen".

So we'll have to manage resources more carefully as DPS, weaving in some heavy attacks in between (or grinding more CPs), or risk the wrath of the angry tank?

I'm fine with that.

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

Yeah they are nerfing dodge roll.... making it cost a bit more to do over and over again. They are not however making stam regen stop while you are rolling. Considering resorces only regen every 2 seconds if you block during that one tick in that two seconds you have 4 seconds of not regening for a half second of blocking if you time it just long enough to block that attack thats comming. So you have a boss mob that attacks with hard attacks like every 3 seconds... Then when do you get your stam back?

And yes a tank can run out of stam!! Not every tank is a full stam build. after taunting and debuffing the damage from several mobs its quite easy to run out of stam. you just cant let it happen because when your out of stam you die.

Yes dps use pots to restore stam/magicka... heres some news for you.... so do tanks. except after this change the big part of that potion the regen that lasts until you can almost drink another one wont work anymore!

A 50% reduction in stam regen could be acceptable while blocking. But no stam regen is absurd and it is a major nerf to the tanking role. One that isnt called for or needed.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes.

Tank on the other hand?

A proper tank can take every single add in the room (or 9-10 players in PvP) and tank them without ever going below 80% stamina.

That's how broken it is currently, most tanks are even switching out of tanking gear to deal extra DPS these days.

There is no resource management, only infinite stamina and brokenness.

And no, every character does not have "infinite health". You get hit by something you shouldn't, there's a very strong possibility of that health suddenly running out.

No, good dps doesn't run out of resources. High tier players balance their resources and i question the opinions of anyone who claims otherwise.

"High tier players" go all out weapon damage / spell damage, and you do run out of resources (atleast as stamina DPS), at which point you drink a potion, heavy attack cancel, or have a templar drop spear on you.

First off running out of resources and getting low on resources, but working to restore them is not the same thing. Second, while players do stack weapon or spell damage, they also work to optimize their resource pools by, for example, rolling red guard or using a reduce spell cost enchantment. Third, what you implied with regards to champion points buffing tanks also applies to dps - players earn the right to be more powerful by earning cp and no , I'm not op with less than 200 cp.

Personofsecrets · July 2015

Plaid13ub17_ESO wrote: »

Yeah they are nerfing dodge roll.... making it cost a bit more to do over and over again. They are not however making stam regen stop while you are rolling. Considering resorces only regen every 2 seconds if you block during that one tick in that two seconds you have 4 seconds of not regening for a half second of blocking if you time it just long enough to block that attack thats comming. So you have a boss mob that attacks with hard attacks like every 3 seconds... Then when do you get your stam back?

And yes a tank can run out of stam!! Not every tank is a full stam build. after taunting and debuffing the damage from several mobs its quite easy to run out of stam. you just cant let it happen because when your out of stam you die.

Yes dps use pots to restore stam/magicka... heres some news for you.... so do tanks. except after this change the big part of that potion the regen that lasts until you can almost drink another one wont work anymore!

A 50% reduction in stam regen could be acceptable while blocking. But no stam regen is absurd and it is a major nerf to the tanking role. One that isnt called for or needed.

At this point I accept no further changes that nerfs tanks. Not 0% regen, not 50%, and not 99%. The slippery slope stops here and tanks accept no nerfs.

Halfwitte · July 2015

"Yes, but infinite here means that there's a possibility of running out of stamina.

A proper tank can have every single add in the room hitting him, and still be unable to run out of stamina as it currently stands on live servers." DDuke

And We like being able to do this, because we gear ourselves accordingly and place champ points accordingly and we don't get upset because the dps doesn't run out of resources dpsing. Should we hamstring the dps because they're good at what they do? Make Snipe cost more stamina each time it is cast back to back? Let's stop stamina regen for dps every time they use a skill that uses stamina and allow it to resume once they start light or heavy attacking for a set period of time.

Not every tank has unlimited resources in the way you feel they do. Most have enough stamina regen while fighting one enemy that it supersedes the cost of blocking in most not really threatening situations. There are those that have more because they have geared that way and invested the time and CP to be an effective tank and we like what we have accomplished. CP makes much of this possible. Are we going to start thrashing tanks even more when they reach even higher amounts of CP and we feel what they're doing then is even more ridiculous? Healing themselves when they bash, and getting damage shields when they block and returning damage when they block, and mitigating 25% of all damage types period without blocking or reaching max armor and spell resist caps and all are possible with enough CP and all things most tanks would strive to reach to be a better tank. I can't seem to grasp why people in PVE wouldn't want their tank to be the gnarliest and toughest Spartan on the field to greater ensure their victory. This perplexes me greatly, because I thought we were supposed to be rooting for our tanks not tearing them down.

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

" I can't seem to grasp why people in PVE wouldn't want their tank to be the gnarliest and toughest Spartan on the field to greater ensure their victory. This perplexes me greatly, because I thought we were supposed to be rooting for our tanks not tearing them down."

Maybe you cant grasp that, because you read this discussion, where most of people who are happy with this change are PVP dps who finally will be able to 1 shot everything just as they dreamed.

Maddux · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

For an example of what majority of people I've talked to consider proper PvE content:
In vanilla WoW, did you tank Ragnaros and every single Son of Flame he summoned as a tank?

Hell no, you had Off Tank for when Main Tank got knocked back, and then you had DPS CC the summoned adds.

This was interesting, strategic PvE that almost everyone enjoyed playing. Even common trash pulls had to be coordinated, who CCs what and who tanks which mob.

Not the current repetitive, dumbed down "tank tanks everything, DPS AoEs" *** that ESO has.

Vanilla WoW was everything but not balanced and even that ESO has a lot of Bugs, it isnt that bugged as Vanilla WoW was.
You may need CC if you are running Dungeons or Raids with bad Randoms or in the early Weeks after a new Contentupdate when nobody was outgeared and knows every Mechanic. But did you ever run a Dungeon with a good Paladin Tank like, hm, me? Aggrobuff > Consecration > AOE PewPew > everything dead.
People in WoW are rushing trough Raids and Dungeons after they outgear that Content like we do it now in ESO after we outgear everything for Months and have much more CP as the Content is balanced for.

And what CC should we use in ESO and where to put them on the Bars? Dont forget that we just have 10 Slots for Skills and cant put every Skill we have on our Bars to use it if we ever will need it. Some Builds have 1 or 2 optional Slots where they can put CC in and some has none because of stupid Toggles. ESO is just a stupid DPS Race and now the DDs have to slot CC instead of Damageskills? Thats your Way to balance unbalanced Content and stupid Mechanics? A Round of Applause!

DDuke · July 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

" I can't seem to grasp why people in PVE wouldn't want their tank to be the gnarliest and toughest Spartan on the field to greater ensure their victory. This perplexes me greatly, because I thought we were supposed to be rooting for our tanks not tearing them down."

Maybe you cant grasp that, because you read this discussion, where most of people who are happy with this change are PVP dps who finally will be able to 1 shot everything just as they dreamed.

You must've missed how they nerfed damage as well, along with other things such as roll dodging & BoL/Streak.

And yes, I've known all along that this is just a veiled PvP QQ thread from permablockers who are no longer unkillable unless significantly outnumbered, hoping to attract ZOS attention by labeling it as PvE thread.

You can move along now, real PvE tanks will realize that this is a good change (for everyone) and brings more depth & strategy to the game.

Rinmaethodain · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

And yes, I've known all along that this is just a veiled PvP QQ thread from permablockers who are no longer unkillable unless significantly outnumbered, hoping to attract ZOS attention by labeling it as PvE thread.

And all the QQ PvP Permablockers are crying out loud "Make it pvp only", right? No, that wouldnt make sense, they want to keep it, why they would ask to make in Cyriodiil only? Why would people in this topic ask and suggest to make it pvp only?

Maybe because.

People who are against this sick ZOS idea

Arent QQ PvP permablockers?
<shock><suprise>

Personofsecrets · July 2015

DDuke, I would like to thank you for the posts. I really need to be able to have a good discussion contrary to every single talking point that could be used to justify the nerf. This is genuine, I'm glad we can have this conversation.

"And yes, I've known all along that this is just a veiled PvP QQ thread from permablockers who are no longer unkillable unless significantly outnumbered."

As much as pve tanks have to pvp tank to get the full efficiency out of their champion points, no tanks are unkillable in pvp.

I can run footman/hist with all block cost mitigation and still get mass hysteria combod to death.

I took 19k gank hits the other night while in light armor. I switched to heavy armor tank gear and died to 17k gank hits instead.

the idea that tanks are 'unkillable' in pvp is make believe.

DDuke · July 2015

Maddux wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

For an example of what majority of people I've talked to consider proper PvE content:
In vanilla WoW, did you tank Ragnaros and every single Son of Flame he summoned as a tank?

Hell no, you had Off Tank for when Main Tank got knocked back, and then you had DPS CC the summoned adds.

This was interesting, strategic PvE that almost everyone enjoyed playing. Even common trash pulls had to be coordinated, who CCs what and who tanks which mob.

Not the current repetitive, dumbed down "tank tanks everything, DPS AoEs" *** that ESO has.

Vanilla WoW was everything but not balanced and even that ESO has a lot of Bugs, it isnt that bugged as Vanilla WoW was.
You may need CC if you are running Dungeons or Raids with bad Randoms or in the early Weeks after a new Contentupdate when nobody was outgeared and knows every Mechanic. But did you ever run a Dungeon with a good Paladin Tank like, hm, me? Aggrobuff > Consecration > AOE PewPew > everything dead.
People in WoW are rushing trough Raids and Dungeons after they outgear that Content like we do it now in ESO after we outgear everything for Months and have much more CP as the Content is balanced for.

And what CC should we use in ESO and where to put them on the Bars? Dont forget that we just have 10 Slots for Skills and cant put every Skill we have on our Bars to use it if we ever will need it. Some Builds have 1 or 2 optional Slots where they can put CC in and some has none because of stupid Toggles. ESO is just a stupid DPS Race and now the DDs have to slot CC instead of Damageskills? Thats your Way to balance unbalanced Content and stupid Mechanics? A Round of Applause!

rofl

That is not at all how vanilla WoW was. Maybe current WoW, idk, I stopped playing when they started dumbing down.
Did you even play the game? What you're saying is making zero sense.

Fact is that even the normal dungeons required planning & CC, main tanks and off tanks.

When Molten Core was at farm status, you still had to assign roles for players (who's main tank, who's off tank, who CCs what and so on).

That said, your argument is already void on the basis that all content in ESO so far, every trash pack with more than two mobs, has been "tank taunts everything, rest AoE -> repeat ad infinitum".

This has been the case, no matter how new the content.

As for your question, every class has access to CC and atleast as a stamina NB, I wouldn't find any problem in slotting a CC in either bar. You obviously wouldn't need *every* DPS to slot CC.

And lastly, are you happy that everything is a DPS race? Yes, adding CC and strategic elements is the way to fix stupid mechanics such as the Tank+AoE trash mobs, which are pretty much the only ones existing.

But hey, I would like to hear your suggestions, if CC shouldn't ever be used in PvE (since tank can just take everything)
How are we going to create content, that isn't just boring tank & spank basicly with little to no thinking involved?

DDuke · July 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I can run footman/hist with all block cost mitigation and still get mass hysteria combod to death.

I took 19k gank hits the other night while in light armor. I switched to heavy armor tank gear and died to 17k gank hits instead.

the idea that tanks are 'unkillable' in pvp is make believe.

First of all, there is a setup which allows you to run 100% of the time with CC immunity, meaning no "Mass Hysteria combos" (which do not work in 1v1 anyway against people who can react before global cooldown from fear ends).

Secondly, I should probably clarify that the unkillable refers to the "block mode", when these tanks decide to press the right mouse button and hold it.

Outside of that, you can still get instagibbed (only way to really kill a permablocker in 1v1 as it stands).

Now, ZOS are fixing both the instagibbing and the permablock issues. Fair, right? No, people still QQ.

Anyhow, I can't claim I'm surprised this conversation turned into PvP one.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2015

Yuke wrote: »

Even i, who play 80-90% of my time in pvp, think, that the nerf was a bit too much.

A decreasing stamina reg down to a min. value of 20% of your max stamreg when start blocking should have been more reasonable. (maybe combined with a similar decreasing dmg output)

The thing about it is, if you are built for tanking your damage output is nerfed to begin with. To be fair there are some tanks with pretty good damage, but how much more damage would they have if they weren't tanky? There is a tradeoff here and that's the annoying thing about people complaining about Tank builds. Nothing about the One Hand Shield Skill line screams OP DPS. If the shield line is not good for tanking, and not good for dps, it might as well not even exist.

I could be wrong which is why I'm holding judgment on the whole thing til it hits PTS or Live, but on the face of it this change looks like nothing more than a dumbing down of the game which we don't need more of.

Nifty2g · July 2015

You keep bringing pvp into this, we all agree it needs fixing there. It clearly states pve in the thread title. Odd? Can we not have a pvp discussion pls

DDuke · July 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I could be wrong which is why I'm holding judgment on the whole thing til it hits PTS or Live, but on the face of it this change looks like nothing more than a dumbing down of the game which we don't need more of.

How is making resource management matter "dumbing down"?

It's the very opposite of dumbing down.

What is dumb is the current "taunt this, taunt that and taunt this one, hold block, job is done" gameplay that makes everything just "zerg in & AoE while tank taunts everything".

Dracane · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Maddux wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

For an example of what majority of people I've talked to consider proper PvE content:
In vanilla WoW, did you tank Ragnaros and every single Son of Flame he summoned as a tank?

Hell no, you had Off Tank for when Main Tank got knocked back, and then you had DPS CC the summoned adds.

This was interesting, strategic PvE that almost everyone enjoyed playing. Even common trash pulls had to be coordinated, who CCs what and who tanks which mob.

Not the current repetitive, dumbed down "tank tanks everything, DPS AoEs" *** that ESO has.

Vanilla WoW was everything but not balanced and even that ESO has a lot of Bugs, it isnt that bugged as Vanilla WoW was.
You may need CC if you are running Dungeons or Raids with bad Randoms or in the early Weeks after a new Contentupdate when nobody was outgeared and knows every Mechanic. But did you ever run a Dungeon with a good Paladin Tank like, hm, me? Aggrobuff > Consecration > AOE PewPew > everything dead.
People in WoW are rushing trough Raids and Dungeons after they outgear that Content like we do it now in ESO after we outgear everything for Months and have much more CP as the Content is balanced for.

And what CC should we use in ESO and where to put them on the Bars? Dont forget that we just have 10 Slots for Skills and cant put every Skill we have on our Bars to use it if we ever will need it. Some Builds have 1 or 2 optional Slots where they can put CC in and some has none because of stupid Toggles. ESO is just a stupid DPS Race and now the DDs have to slot CC instead of Damageskills? Thats your Way to balance unbalanced Content and stupid Mechanics? A Round of Applause!

rofl

That is not at all how vanilla WoW was. Maybe current WoW, idk, I stopped playing when they started dumbing down.
Did you even play the game? What you're saying is making zero sense.

Fact is that even the normal dungeons required planning & CC, main tanks and off tanks.

When Molten Core was at farm status, you still had to assign roles for players (who's main tank, who's off tank, who CCs what and so on).

That said, your argument is already void on the basis that all content in ESO so far, every trash pack with more than two mobs, has been "tank taunts everything, rest AoE -> repeat ad infinitum".

This has been the case, no matter how new the content.

As for your question, every class has access to CC and atleast as a stamina NB, I wouldn't find any problem in slotting a CC in either bar. You obviously wouldn't need *every* DPS to slot CC.

And lastly, are you happy that everything is a DPS race? Yes, adding CC and strategic elements is the way to fix stupid mechanics such as the Tank+AoE trash mobs, which are pretty much the only ones existing.

But hey, I would like to hear your suggestions, if CC shouldn't ever be used in PvE (since tank can just take everything)
How are we going to create content, that isn't just boring tank & spank basicly with little to no thinking involved?

I agree. Though the problem with CC in pve is, that fights are too short. You benefit more from destroying enemies fast, instead of CCing them. And enemies, where CC would be very helpfull, are immune to it.

Instead of saying: 'Hey, use rune prison or petrify against the Shadowcaster in Dragonstar arena' people say 'Focus on Shadowcaster, destroy him first' People aren't interested in CCing, they simply want to destroy as fast as possible.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

Maddux wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

For an example of what majority of people I've talked to consider proper PvE content:
In vanilla WoW, did you tank Ragnaros and every single Son of Flame he summoned as a tank?

Hell no, you had Off Tank for when Main Tank got knocked back, and then you had DPS CC the summoned adds.

This was interesting, strategic PvE that almost everyone enjoyed playing. Even common trash pulls had to be coordinated, who CCs what and who tanks which mob.

Not the current repetitive, dumbed down "tank tanks everything, DPS AoEs" *** that ESO has.

Vanilla WoW was everything but not balanced and even that ESO has a lot of Bugs, it isnt that bugged as Vanilla WoW was.
You may need CC if you are running Dungeons or Raids with bad Randoms or in the early Weeks after a new Contentupdate when nobody was outgeared and knows every Mechanic. But did you ever run a Dungeon with a good Paladin Tank like, hm, me? Aggrobuff > Consecration > AOE PewPew > everything dead.
People in WoW are rushing trough Raids and Dungeons after they outgear that Content like we do it now in ESO after we outgear everything for Months and have much more CP as the Content is balanced for.

And what CC should we use in ESO and where to put them on the Bars? Dont forget that we just have 10 Slots for Skills and cant put every Skill we have on our Bars to use it if we ever will need it. Some Builds have 1 or 2 optional Slots where they can put CC in and some has none because of stupid Toggles. ESO is just a stupid DPS Race and now the DDs have to slot CC instead of Damageskills? Thats your Way to balance unbalanced Content and stupid Mechanics? A Round of Applause!

rofl

That is not at all how vanilla WoW was. Maybe current WoW, idk, I stopped playing when they started dumbing down.
Did you even play the game? What you're saying is making zero sense.

Fact is that even the normal dungeons required planning & CC, main tanks and off tanks.

When Molten Core was at farm status, you still had to assign roles for players (who's main tank, who's off tank, who CCs what and so on).

That said, your argument is already void on the basis that all content in ESO so far, every trash pack with more than two mobs, has been "tank taunts everything, rest AoE -> repeat ad infinitum".

This has been the case, no matter how new the content.

As for your question, every class has access to CC and atleast as a stamina NB, I wouldn't find any problem in slotting a CC in either bar. You obviously wouldn't need *every* DPS to slot CC.

And lastly, are you happy that everything is a DPS race? Yes, adding CC and strategic elements is the way to fix stupid mechanics such as the Tank+AoE trash mobs, which are pretty much the only ones existing.

But hey, I would like to hear your suggestions, if CC shouldn't ever be used in PvE (since tank can just take everything)
How are we going to create content, that isn't just boring tank & spank basicly with little to no thinking involved?

I never played WoW so I can't speak to that. I do think CC is a very important part of the game, but not every class has equal cc do they. That's a small issue so I'll shelve that topic though. On the whole I agree that more cc mechanics is a good thing, the problem is its not equitable. I'm very concerned now about how spammable talons is going to be in pvp, and what that's going to do for it. I concur that you can't really have this topic without pvp, even though it does very drastically affect how pve will be played. We really don't know what the end result is going to be, but lets face it with lag and such, block is being nullified, and that's 90% of being a tank. Block or Dodge. The end result as I see it is that they're going to bring up armor inimportance, which in turn will have a great possibility of severely dumbing down the game, the exact concern you're hoping they fix. Its all conjecture a this point though, I agree.

tpanisiakb16_ESO · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes.

Tank on the other hand?

A proper tank can take every single add in the room (or 9-10 players in PvP) and tank them without ever going below 80% stamina.

That's how broken it is currently, most tanks are even switching out of tanking gear to deal extra DPS these days.

There is no resource management, only infinite stamina and brokenness.

And no, every character does not have "infinite health". You get hit by something you shouldn't, there's a very strong possibility of that health suddenly running out.

So in order to make things challenging you prefer they place the burden on players themselves? That is a design flaw.

I keep trying to tell you: the content right now is easy because we've done in a lot of times, because Champion Points trivializes certain aspects of the game (like tanking vet dungeons). A brand new tank with shoddy gear is not going to have an easy time stepping into vet CoH or CoA for the first time. A first time tank to vDSA is not going to have an easy time. The content is easy for us because we've done so frequently. I know exactly the optimal times to use my ultimates in dungeons now. Should they just take ultimates out of the game to make it more challenging?

If you want more challenging gameplay then it's fine to ask for it(and FWIW I agree with you), but crippling an integral part to group play is not the answer. That's a downright lazy bandaid fix.

DDuke · July 2015

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes.

Tank on the other hand?

A proper tank can take every single add in the room (or 9-10 players in PvP) and tank them without ever going below 80% stamina.

That's how broken it is currently, most tanks are even switching out of tanking gear to deal extra DPS these days.

There is no resource management, only infinite stamina and brokenness.

And no, every character does not have "infinite health". You get hit by something you shouldn't, there's a very strong possibility of that health suddenly running out.

So in order to make things challenging you prefer they place the burden on players themselves? That is a design flaw.

I keep trying to tell you: the content right now is easy because we've done in a lot of times, because Champion Points trivializes certain aspects of the game (like tanking vet dungeons). A brand new tank with shoddy gear is not going to have an easy time stepping into vet CoH or CoA for the first time. A first time tank to vDSA is not going to have an easy time. The content is easy for us because we've done so frequently. I know exactly the optimal times to use my ultimates in dungeons now. Should they just take ultimates out of the game to make it more challenging?

If you want more challenging gameplay then it's fine to ask for it(and FWIW I agree with you), but crippling an integral part to group play is not the answer. That's a downright lazy bandaid fix.

It's easy now, and it's always been easy.

When hasn't PvE in this game (apart from certain boss fights) been simply "tank & AoE"?

Whether your team has good enough builds, DPS or rotations or not is a different matter, but the content itself has always been dumb & easy, especially when it comes to trash mobs.

Also, a first time tank probably shouldn't jump straight into DSAV or SO hardmode, but do the easier stuff first to learn how to play as tank.

So far, none of the "omg this is going to ruin PvE" doomsayers has been able to explain why they think it will ruin PvE. None of the people here has tested the content with all the new changes either, yet we're already QQing about what could very well be the best change since the launch of this game (for both PvP & PvE).

criscal · July 2015

Well, as a tank in PvE end-game, I don't like the idea of this change at all as it implies paying twice for blocking. I don't care about PvP in Lagodil.
Axes in the archive will become much harder to control and without your personal ammunition belt in shape of a templar this looks impossible in prospect. Without 100% reliable internet connection it will suck to not put up the block in time. Even a weapon swap at the wrong time can kill you at the Mantikora in Sanctum Ophidia when it comes delayed too, just as a more extreme example.
I hope they make up their mind about it and soften the impact of what I perceive as a PvP fix breaking PvE endgame content. One way I suggest is to retain - at least partially - stamina regeneration with at set of at least 5 heavy armor items. Could be even a passive in the heavy armor skills line.
Of course it would suck as well, if the Green Dragon Blood and the Blood Spawn Set would be utterly useless in block position - and that's how it looks like to me with the brief announcement.

Nifty2g · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes.

Tank on the other hand?

A proper tank can take every single add in the room (or 9-10 players in PvP) and tank them without ever going below 80% stamina.

That's how broken it is currently, most tanks are even switching out of tanking gear to deal extra DPS these days.

There is no resource management, only infinite stamina and brokenness.

And no, every character does not have "infinite health". You get hit by something you shouldn't, there's a very strong possibility of that health suddenly running out.

So in order to make things challenging you prefer they place the burden on players themselves? That is a design flaw.

I keep trying to tell you: the content right now is easy because we've done in a lot of times, because Champion Points trivializes certain aspects of the game (like tanking vet dungeons). A brand new tank with shoddy gear is not going to have an easy time stepping into vet CoH or CoA for the first time. A first time tank to vDSA is not going to have an easy time. The content is easy for us because we've done so frequently. I know exactly the optimal times to use my ultimates in dungeons now. Should they just take ultimates out of the game to make it more challenging?

If you want more challenging gameplay then it's fine to ask for it(and FWIW I agree with you), but crippling an integral part to group play is not the answer. That's a downright lazy bandaid fix.

It's easy now, and it's always been easy.

When hasn't PvE in this game (apart from certain boss fights) been simply "tank & AoE"?

Whether your team has good enough builds, DPS or rotations or not is a different matter, but the content itself has always been dumb & easy, especially when it comes to trash mobs.

Also, a first time tank probably shouldn't jump straight into DSAV or SO hardmode, but do the easier stuff first to learn how to play as tank.

So far, none of the "omg this is going to ruin PvE" doomsayers has been able to explain why they think it will ruin PvE. None of the people here has tested the content with all the new changes either, yet we're already QQing about what could very well be the best change since the launch of this game (for both PvP & PvE).

Not everyone in this game is as good as the top 1% bruh. A lot struggle to your surprise

DschiPeunt · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes.

Tank on the other hand?

A proper tank can take every single add in the room (or 9-10 players in PvP) and tank them without ever going below 80% stamina.

That's how broken it is currently, most tanks are even switching out of tanking gear to deal extra DPS these days.

There is no resource management, only infinite stamina and brokenness.

And no, every character does not have "infinite health". You get hit by something you shouldn't, there's a very strong possibility of that health suddenly running out.

So in order to make things challenging you prefer they place the burden on players themselves? That is a design flaw.

I keep trying to tell you: the content right now is easy because we've done in a lot of times, because Champion Points trivializes certain aspects of the game (like tanking vet dungeons). A brand new tank with shoddy gear is not going to have an easy time stepping into vet CoH or CoA for the first time. A first time tank to vDSA is not going to have an easy time. The content is easy for us because we've done so frequently. I know exactly the optimal times to use my ultimates in dungeons now. Should they just take ultimates out of the game to make it more challenging?

If you want more challenging gameplay then it's fine to ask for it(and FWIW I agree with you), but crippling an integral part to group play is not the answer. That's a downright lazy bandaid fix.

It's easy now, and it's always been easy.

When hasn't PvE in this game (apart from certain boss fights) been simply "tank & AoE"?

Whether your team has good enough builds, DPS or rotations or not is a different matter, but the content itself has always been dumb & easy, especially when it comes to trash mobs.

Also, a first time tank probably shouldn't jump straight into DSAV or SO hardmode, but do the easier stuff first to learn how to play as tank.

So far, none of the "omg this is going to ruin PvE" doomsayers has been able to explain why they think it will ruin PvE. None of the people here has tested the content with all the new changes either, yet we're already QQing about what could very well be the best change since the launch of this game (for both PvP & PvE).

Really? This could be the best change in the game for you? I assume that is only the case, because ZOS hasn't been able to put some really good changes to the game.

And as I have said before: the 1% is going to adjust with ease, but not everyone is as good as those players. I don't think everyone has to be able to complete every piece of content, no matter how bad they play.
BUT: some still struggle with completing veteran dungeons. Some need months for their 1st manticora kill. This will make it even harder for those players. It's not going to be as much of a game-changer for the top players, as you say it is. I will throw my spears like I always do and my tank will just pick them up more often. End of story.

Few months ago I was asked by some guild members of a casual guild I joined on the day ESO launched, if I could help them with Darkshade Caverns. I brought a friend of mine, who was tanking. The last boss fight took nearly 7 minutes. The DPS was horrible and we just didn't wipe, because the tank and me (as the healer) were doing a good job. I like to do those runs to keep in mind, what skill levels others have. And those players are going to suffer. Not me, not you.

DDuke · July 2015

DschiPeunt wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes.

Tank on the other hand?

A proper tank can take every single add in the room (or 9-10 players in PvP) and tank them without ever going below 80% stamina.

That's how broken it is currently, most tanks are even switching out of tanking gear to deal extra DPS these days.

There is no resource management, only infinite stamina and brokenness.

And no, every character does not have "infinite health". You get hit by something you shouldn't, there's a very strong possibility of that health suddenly running out.

So in order to make things challenging you prefer they place the burden on players themselves? That is a design flaw.

I keep trying to tell you: the content right now is easy because we've done in a lot of times, because Champion Points trivializes certain aspects of the game (like tanking vet dungeons). A brand new tank with shoddy gear is not going to have an easy time stepping into vet CoH or CoA for the first time. A first time tank to vDSA is not going to have an easy time. The content is easy for us because we've done so frequently. I know exactly the optimal times to use my ultimates in dungeons now. Should they just take ultimates out of the game to make it more challenging?

If you want more challenging gameplay then it's fine to ask for it(and FWIW I agree with you), but crippling an integral part to group play is not the answer. That's a downright lazy bandaid fix.

It's easy now, and it's always been easy.

When hasn't PvE in this game (apart from certain boss fights) been simply "tank & AoE"?

Whether your team has good enough builds, DPS or rotations or not is a different matter, but the content itself has always been dumb & easy, especially when it comes to trash mobs.

Also, a first time tank probably shouldn't jump straight into DSAV or SO hardmode, but do the easier stuff first to learn how to play as tank.

So far, none of the "omg this is going to ruin PvE" doomsayers has been able to explain why they think it will ruin PvE. None of the people here has tested the content with all the new changes either, yet we're already QQing about what could very well be the best change since the launch of this game (for both PvP & PvE).

Really? This could be the best change in the game for you? I assume that is only the case, because ZOS hasn't been able to put some really good changes to the game.

And as I have said before: the 1% is going to adjust with ease, but not everyone is as good as those players. I don't think everyone has to be able to complete every piece of content, no matter how bad they play.
BUT: some still struggle with completing veteran dungeons. Some need months for their 1st manticora kill. This will make it even harder for those players. It's not going to be as much of a game-changer for the top players, as you say it is. I will throw my spears like I always do and my tank will just pick them up more often. End of story.

Few months ago I was asked by some guild members of a casual guild I joined on the day ESO launched, if I could help them with Darkshade Caverns. I brought a friend of mine, who was tanking. The last boss fight took nearly 7 minutes. The DPS was horrible and we just didn't wipe, because the tank and me (as the healer) were doing a good job. I like to do those runs to keep in mind, what skill levels others have. And those players are going to suffer. Not me, not you.

It's too early to say how this will work out before testing it on PTS. We don't even know the patch notes yet and what else gets added.

Even in the worst scenario, I don't think it's the tank who is going to suffer.

Tank will simply take less mobs, and DPS will deal with those (with CC or otherwise) and boss fights shouldn't be a problem stamina wise even without regeneration while blocking (again, this is why we have PTS).

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

DDuke wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

tpanisiakb16_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes.

Tank on the other hand?

A proper tank can take every single add in the room (or 9-10 players in PvP) and tank them without ever going below 80% stamina.

That's how broken it is currently, most tanks are even switching out of tanking gear to deal extra DPS these days.

There is no resource management, only infinite stamina and brokenness.

And no, every character does not have "infinite health". You get hit by something you shouldn't, there's a very strong possibility of that health suddenly running out.

So in order to make things challenging you prefer they place the burden on players themselves? That is a design flaw.

I keep trying to tell you: the content right now is easy because we've done in a lot of times, because Champion Points trivializes certain aspects of the game (like tanking vet dungeons). A brand new tank with shoddy gear is not going to have an easy time stepping into vet CoH or CoA for the first time. A first time tank to vDSA is not going to have an easy time. The content is easy for us because we've done so frequently. I know exactly the optimal times to use my ultimates in dungeons now. Should they just take ultimates out of the game to make it more challenging?

If you want more challenging gameplay then it's fine to ask for it(and FWIW I agree with you), but crippling an integral part to group play is not the answer. That's a downright lazy bandaid fix.

It's easy now, and it's always been easy.

When hasn't PvE in this game (apart from certain boss fights) been simply "tank & AoE"?

Whether your team has good enough builds, DPS or rotations or not is a different matter, but the content itself has always been dumb & easy, especially when it comes to trash mobs.

Also, a first time tank probably shouldn't jump straight into DSAV or SO hardmode, but do the easier stuff first to learn how to play as tank.

So far, none of the "omg this is going to ruin PvE" doomsayers has been able to explain why they think it will ruin PvE. None of the people here has tested the content with all the new changes either, yet we're already QQing about what could very well be the best change since the launch of this game (for both PvP & PvE).

Really? This could be the best change in the game for you? I assume that is only the case, because ZOS hasn't been able to put some really good changes to the game.

And as I have said before: the 1% is going to adjust with ease, but not everyone is as good as those players. I don't think everyone has to be able to complete every piece of content, no matter how bad they play.
BUT: some still struggle with completing veteran dungeons. Some need months for their 1st manticora kill. This will make it even harder for those players. It's not going to be as much of a game-changer for the top players, as you say it is. I will throw my spears like I always do and my tank will just pick them up more often. End of story.

Few months ago I was asked by some guild members of a casual guild I joined on the day ESO launched, if I could help them with Darkshade Caverns. I brought a friend of mine, who was tanking. The last boss fight took nearly 7 minutes. The DPS was horrible and we just didn't wipe, because the tank and me (as the healer) were doing a good job. I like to do those runs to keep in mind, what skill levels others have. And those players are going to suffer. Not me, not you.

It's too early to say how this will work out before testing it on PTS. We don't even know the patch notes yet and what else gets added.

Even in the worst scenario, I don't think it's the tank who is going to suffer.

Tank will simply take less mobs, and DPS will deal with those (with CC or otherwise) and boss fights shouldn't be a problem stamina wise even without regeneration while blocking.

Keep in mind stamina regens every 2 seconds not constantly so if you block for that tick thats 4 seconds with no stam regen. If you do this to block heavy attacks every few seconds you will never have stam regen. Would be different if stam regened constantly and not in ticks every couple seconds. But that is not the case.

Halfwitte · July 2015

Hopefully Zenimax knows there is more to tanking than just hitting the taunt button and holding block and it is instant win.
As a templar tank I fill the role of the tank and the healer. I fall and the party is over most of the time. Everyone else in the party is a dps. Sometimes I play more of a healing role than a tank in vDSA when we start getting overwhelmed by adds. Sometimes its all I can do to hold the boss avoid their ultimates. Shoot doesn't even have to be an ultimate it could just be a ground based fire attack from the mage boss in round 9. And you still work to try and pull the really nasty adds off the squishys to keep them from dying. Missed heal or a missed taunt or I let that Gargoyle run free for too long and suddenly I'm last man standing.

Regenerating Stamina while blocking is a fundamental part of what it means to be a tank and not having to worry about your stamina being there, because you made all the necessary preparations to make sure it was sufficient to allow you to focus on healing team mates, casting purges, debuffing and slowing targets, interrupting casters, reflecting spells, repenting corpses, dropping novas, popping synergies, taunting bosses and the cronies and rezzing team mates. It would be a great disservice to your tank if all you thought they did was walk around holding block.

Plaid13ub17_ESO · July 2015

Halfwitte wrote: »

Hopefully Zenimax knows there is more to tanking than just hitting the taunt button and holding block and it is instant win.
As a templar tank I fill the role of the tank and the healer. I fall and the party is over most of the time. Everyone else in the party is a dps. Sometimes I play more of a healing role than a tank in vDSA when we start getting overwhelmed by adds. Sometimes its all I can do to hold the boss avoid their ultimates. Shoot doesn't even have to be an ultimate it could just be a ground based fire attack from the mage boss in round 9. And you still work to try and pull the really nasty adds off the squishys to keep them from dying. Missed heal or a missed taunt or I let that Gargoyle run free for too long and suddenly I'm last man standing.

Regenerating Stamina while blocking is a fundamental part of what it means to be a tank and not having to worry about your stamina being there, because you made all the necessary preparations to make sure it was sufficient to allow you to focus on healing team mates, casting purges, debuffing and slowing targets, interrupting casters, reflecting spells, repenting corpses, dropping novas, popping synergies, taunting bosses and the cronies and rezzing team mates. It would be a great disservice to your tank if all you thought they did was walk around holding block.

Exactly! I love my templar magicka tank build. But not sure how it will work if i have to focus on getting in heavy attacks all the time just to be able to block.

Xjcon · July 2015

The challenge of tanking will be fun, the sky is not falling, great players will know what to do to make this work for them, gg ZOS.