Alphashado wrote: »

Just another in many examples of how asking for nerfs in PvP negatively effects PvE.

playing the advocatus diaboli - what about the assumption that ZOS was unhappy with the static tank gameplay (ignoring wishes of the pvp community as they do all the time anyway)?

tplink3r1 wrote: »

Why don't they just nerf damage done while blocking? That would be much better.

it's already nerfd damage when comparing it to the one shot builds that aren't perma blocking

Personofsecrets wrote: »

So I tried timing my blocks last night. Sure enough, not every single one was correct and it seemed like a finicky thing to be doing. I also tried not perma holding block against big groups of trash. I can't imagine being able to not block against those big groups while using stamina abilities such as pierce armor, deep slash, rapid maneuvers, and caltrops.

FYI Mantikora can 1 shot with an unblocked light attack around the 25k hp mark. You already have many players who are never going to get a sanctum run under their belt.

If you are still for this change, which it seems very few people are, then don't call it a grave if it rolls out, it's the future you chose.

i´m abit confused, tanking trash lasts 10-20sec if you cant do that without stamina reg you are unable to do so with it aswell.
all tanks i know have between 1.0 and 1.8k stamina reg [my dk is at 1.4k and i do nearly never run out of stamina in pve - even without any assistance from my group -> so with the change active but some kind of support by my group i will be doing as fine as i do now]
this change does only effect the rate of stamina regains you have wich is negliable in terms of blocking with the direct refills we have access to. it requires more coordination but hey thats what GROUPPLAY is about, isn´t it?

Oh and believe me, you can still manage to tank most stuff without holding block contantly. I know cause I love to use biting jabs for *** and giggles in most boss fights. Only issue I see it maybe serpent, serpents image and manticora which I would not dare to use a channel ability. But it would be easily fixed.

Tankqull wrote: »

Just another in many examples of how asking for nerfs in PvP negatively effects PvE. [/quotewe a]

playing the advocatus diaboli - what about the assumption that ZOS was unhappy with the static tank gameplay (ignoring wishes of the pvp community as they do all the time anyway)?

Tanking is not stagnant whatsoever. Just like stamina, magic, and health, time is a resource for tanks. I have my timers on buffs and debuffs to keep up with; deep slash, pierce armor, choking talons, dragon blood, hardened armor. I have my dots; eruption, orbs, scalding rune, caltrops. I literally change my gear and skills during trial raids; ill pull 15k against the wisp mother while tanking, ill heal with a restoration staff for the burn of the mage and warrior, and i switch to my best dps when i am the second tank in sanctum. I have tons of gearing to consider; footman, histbark, warkock, seducer, valkyn, engine guardian, blood spawn,storm knight, elf bane, and even light armor set ups with cyrodiil light rings. I am the groups utility because I get to run chains, rapid maneuvers for free, and circle of protection.

Tanking is not stagnant and there have been plenty of changes by the devs that show them they are out of touch with the roll. Why was taunting st earth nerfs for a short time? Why were tank builds the reason for changes in ultimate generation? I had my ultimate up for every boss of every trial for all of 1.5. Why was our armor destroyed to the point of us having to use reinforced? Why are we disproportionately affected by the resource pool nerfs going to 1.6 and why do champion points gimp tanks for anything but that roll? Why was inner beast changed to be a more expensive version of the same skill?

We tanks have tons of complex play to perform. We have already taken our lumps. Enough is enough.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Just another in many examples of how asking for nerfs in PvP negatively effects PvE. [/quotewe a]

playing the advocatus diaboli - what about the assumption that ZOS was unhappy with the static tank gameplay (ignoring wishes of the pvp community as they do all the time anyway)?

Tanking is not stagnant whatsoever. Just like stamina, magic, and health, time is a resource for tanks. I have my timers on buffs and debuffs to keep up with; deep slash, pierce armor, choking talons, dragon blood, hardened armor. I have my dots; eruption, orbs, scalding rune, caltrops. I literally change my gear and skills during trial raids; ill pull 15k against the wisp mother while tanking, ill heal with a restoration staff for the burn of the mage and warrior, and i switch to my best dps when i am the second tank in sanctum. I have tons of gearing to consider; footman, histbark, warkock, seducer, valkyn, engine guardian, blood spawn,storm knight, elf bane, and even light armor set ups with cyrodiil light rings. I am the groups utility because I get to run chains, rapid maneuvers for free, and circle of protection.

well every class and role can do more than just the minimum

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Tanking is not stagnant and there have been plenty of changes by the devs that show them they are out of touch with the roll. Why was taunting st earth nerfs for a short time? Why were tank builds the reason for changes in ultimate generation? I had my ultimate up for every boss of every trial for all of 1.5. Why was our armor destroyed to the point of us having to use reinforced? Why are we disproportionately affected by the resource pool nerfs going to 1.6 and why do champion points gimp tanks for anything but that roll? Why was inner beast changed to be a more expensive version of the same skill?

ultimate generation was nerved because of dot builds (primarily dps dks) i could stack 4 standards simultanious(if the encounter lasted that long) and that was not balanced at all. pool nerves?
the only nerfed pool was health while both other pools have been significantly increased due to the drop of softcaps.
why inner beast got changed i have no idea but it was definatly not because of pvper demands

Tankqull wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

So I tried timing my blocks last night. Sure enough, not every single one was correct and it seemed like a finicky thing to be doing. I also tried not perma holding block against big groups of trash. I can't imagine being able to not block against those big groups while using stamina abilities such as pierce armor, deep slash, rapid maneuvers, and caltrops.

FYI Mantikora can 1 shot with an unblocked light attack around the 25k hp mark. You already have many players who are never going to get a sanctum run under their belt.

If you are still for this change, which it seems very few people are, then don't call it a grave if it rolls out, it's the future you chose.

i´m abit confused, tanking trash lasts 10-20sec if you cant do that without stamina reg you are unable to do so with it aswell.
all tanks i know have between 1.0 and 1.8k stamina reg [my dk is at 1.4k and i do nearly never run out of stamina in pve - even without any assistance from my group -> so with the change active but some kind of support by my group i will be doing as fine as i do now]
this change does only effect the rate of stamina regains you have wich is negliable in terms of blocking with the direct refills we have access to. it requires more coordination but hey thats what GROUPPLAY is about, isn´t it?

So all tanks you know are stam builds so thats all that matters right? Magicka build tanks have nowhere near that much stam regen. Managing stam is already an issue. Not everyone wants to play the cookie cutter DK stam tank. The whole concept of this game was that you didnt need to fit into the cookie cutter builds. But it seems we are being forced into it by changes like this. Without tons of block cost reduction there will be no way to manage it at all. If we have to use that that means the cost of spells will go WAY up. Making magicka tanks far less effective.

No other role needs to count on another class to feed them the resource they need Tanks shouldnt have to count on templars to refill their stam. It is an absurd concept and has not been thought out. People saying this change is fine are very narrow minded and dont realize how many different ways people play their roles. Apparently this includes the devs that decided it was a good idea. And when they are that out of touch with the player base then its the start of the end of the game.

I have seen one mmo after another self destruct because the developers do not realize what the players want or how they play they limit their view of the game to the way they play and ignore all else. Anyone else remember bright wizard god mode in warhammer online? They must realize everyone plays the game differently and not every tank has a ton of stam regen and tons of block cost reduction.

ZOS is punishing tanks for..... just being tanks... ridiculous.

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

"Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes."

This is so generic i want to puke.

Every class, every character while fullfilling its role will run out of stamina and magicka when doing end game content by using abilities or blocking. This means every player will have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes. Yet here we are, with situation where tanks are being targeted and punished for something that happens with every other role and class.

Proper tank tanking every single add in a room and not going below 80% of stamina? With hard earned 14k stamina 80% is 11200 meaning tank will use only 2800 stamina while tanking every single add in room.

For 2800 stamina tank will keep aggro of every single add (around 1200 per single puncture/morph), will use other stamina abilities like maybe bone shield. Keeping aggro on a room full of adds lets say 10 will cost tank 12000 stamina every 15 seconds. With stamina regen of 1500 (which is very high) during that 15 seconds he will regen 11250 stamina so the net is -750 stamina just for keeping aggro.
And tank still needs to block attacks coming at random patterns from "every add in the room" using stamina to block it. In addition to that he needs to shield bash enemies that pose greater danger for the group.

Everything of that for 2800 stamina only?

Please keep posting, this one is amused.

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Really? You need to think that again in the context of Streak, dodge roll, damage shield and healing nerfs in Cyrodill that happen in Update 7 simultaneously with the block changes.

It is not just block that is getting nerfed. Get your facts straight. All the mechanics that provide avoidance/defense to all classes are getting nerfed so that are not indefinitely sustained, or you have to assume a complete defensive position without doing any damage in case you can sustain (aka healing/damage shields).

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

ZOS is punishing tanks for..... having infinite resources. ridiculous.

Fixed that for you.


Now you'll actually have to think about your resources while tanking, how many mobs you can tank and which ones need to be dealt with by the DPS. The DPS can then CC them, kite them, or just take the hits if the adds don't hit that hard.

If anything, this adds depth & strategy to the game.

No, it should read "ZOS is punishing tanks because they implemented a poorly designed system that quickly outgrew the state of the game" ie: Champion System

Every. single. one. of the nerfs coming is due to the CS making players OP in PVP and cries because of it

All this arguing...elite players with a bunch of points will likely do okay after the changes. Newer players and those not min/max'ing every step of the way are likely going to quit without changes. This stam regen nerf (and the costs to dodge roll and bolt escape) are bandaids on a larger problem ZOS needs to fix instead of running more players away from the game. (imo ofc)

DDuke wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I think someone here doesnt know the definition of "infinity"

Thinking this way, sorcs, templars have infinite mana, because it keeps regenerating, every character have infinite health because it keeps regenerating.

But only tanks are being punished for having just as much stamina as they deserve.

Surprisingly enough, you run out of stamina/magicka as a (good) DPS, when doing end game content. This means you have to do things like drink potions or take spear shards from Templars and even use heavy attacks sometimes.


Tank on the other hand?

A proper tank can take every single add in the room (or 9-10 players in PvP) and tank them without ever going below 80% stamina.

That's how broken it is currently, most tanks are even switching out of tanking gear to deal extra DPS these days.

There is no resource management, only infinite stamina and brokenness.


And no, every character does not have "infinite health". You get hit by something you shouldn't, there's a very strong possibility of that health suddenly running out.

No, good dps doesn't run out of resources. High tier players balance their resources and i question the opinions of anyone who claims otherwise.