Nerf Stamina DPS and It's Bugs

BuggeX · June 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

you still say Magica is better than Stamina?

Dont know who initially stated that and for what class, but Magicka DK out DPSes a Stamina DK even with all the bugs mentioned...at least in our raids (Same players tested both multiple times).

For Nightblade, I dont think a Magicka NB competes DPS wise with a Stamina NB.
I dont play other classes so I cant give you a solid statement for them.

All I can say is that in my experience, Stamina DPS needs to use a lot of tricks/bugs to be competitive.

yea thats true, but this is becaus all Dk skills and Dots deal Magic Dmg, and with Magica you go automatic also on Magic Penetration.

Alcast wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

DKs can get 60k HEAVY ATTACK hits....not Op nono, but better nerf jabs, sure thing

EVERY stamina DK can get same dps as Stamina templar.

I said I'm getting 50k ... with banner up in Execute Phase with every buff up.

Also ... no, not every stamina DK can get same dps as Stamina Templar. So far I've only seen ONE ... the legend ... the god ... Xantaria ... The true king of Stamina DK.

Was it too early to start trolling?

Nah its fine, brings in a good mix

I am sure 60k is possible

60k could be possible with a flame staff and hitting a nude Vamp without any Spellarmor.

With Molten, + maxed flamed dmg + staff expert + Penetration + 30k magica and ~2500k spell dmg + all passives in fighter guild

Alcast · June 2015

I am Leveling a DK atm, will show you when i am v14...could take a while though.

Xantaria · June 2015

Alcast wrote: »

I am Leveling a DK atm, will show you when i am v14...could take a while though.

You don't have my permission to show my DK build in these forums. These peasants will copy me and I will ultimately get nerfed. NONONO that's not what I want!!!

Edit: Look, I got 2 sharpened maces as my profile pic now. Do I now gain extra (double) forum penetration?

iTzStevey · June 2015

The only problem I've had with stamina builds is people using two hander constantly knockimg me back so i cant move, but their are ways to counter it. Only other annoying thing about stamina builds is nightblades that can seemingly cloak forever but i dont mind, nightblades are either attacking you from stealth, running away or dead.

Jeckll · June 2015

iTzStevey wrote: »

Only other annoying thing about stamina builds is nightblades that can seemingly cloak forever but i dont mind, nightblades are either attacking you from stealth, running away or dead.

Yeah, those Stamina Nightblades spamming high cost Magicka abilities forever...really a pest

Xantaria · June 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Magicka DK out DPSes a Stamina DK even with all the bugs mentioned...at least in our raids (Same players tested both multiple times).

All I can say is that in my experience, Stamina DPS needs to use a lot of tricks/bugs to be competitive.

BuggeX wrote: »

yea thats true, but this is becaus all Dk skills and Dots deal Magic Dmg, and with Magica you go automatic also on Magic Penetration.

First one is a L2P issue.

Second one is wrong. Unstable Flame is basically the strongest DoT in the freaking game. And guess what it's based on? Stamina.

Jeckll · June 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Magicka DK out DPSes a Stamina DK even with all the bugs mentioned...at least in our raids (Same players tested both multiple times).

All I can say is that in my experience, Stamina DPS needs to use a lot of tricks/bugs to be competitive.

First one is a L2P issue.

Might be, might not be. I can only talk about the experience our DKs had in raids and since I'm a nightblade, I cant say for sure.

Are you saying Stamina DK by is by default stronger than Magicka DK? Some of our players theorized that at some point with enough CP, Stamina will become superior as there are more DPS increasing passives in the Champion System for Stamina DPS than for Magicka DK where almost everything scales with Elemental Expert.

Or is your opinion that Stamina DK is superior to Magicka DK regarless of CP?

Xantaria · June 2015

I'm not saying Stamina is superior. But I can definetely say that Magicka does not outperform Stamina. It heavily depends on the boss also. Stamina can be higher on some bosses and lower on others.

Also what's that with the champion points? Doesn't make any sense at all. Brain.exe has crashed.

Magicka: 100% Fire dmg --> 25% Elemental Expert --> 125% dmg (100 points invested)
Stamina: 70% Phys dmg + 30% Fire dmg --> 25% Mighty + 25% Elemental Expert --> 125% dmg (200 points invested)

The result is the same. You just have to invest into multiple different passives. There are no doubledips that don't exist for Magicka AND Stamina.

BEZDNA · June 2015

Alcast wrote: »

DKs can get 60k HEAVY ATTACK hits....not Op nono

Yeh, 60k one or if you the luckiest person in the world 2 times for the whole run if you have standart up and boss is under 5% hp and you have you DK excute buff up. By the time you do one full charged heavy atack, magika templar will finish casting there jesus beam and NB or Sorcs will cast 2 times excute with light atack.

BuggeX · June 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Magicka DK out DPSes a Stamina DK even with all the bugs mentioned...at least in our raids (Same players tested both multiple times).

All I can say is that in my experience, Stamina DPS needs to use a lot of tricks/bugs to be competitive.

BuggeX wrote: »

yea thats true, but this is becaus all Dk skills and Dots deal Magic Dmg, and with Magica you go automatic also on Magic Penetration.

First one is a L2P issue.

Second one is wrong. Unstable Flame is basically the strongest DoT in the freaking game. And guess what it's based on? Stamina.

and deals FLAME Dmg, Flame Dmg is affected by Spell Penetration and not Armor Penetration,

edit: and guess wath? i give a *** about your unstable flame with my 50k mres

Jeckll · June 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

Also what's that with the champion points? Doesn't make any sense at all. Brain.exe has crashed.

Magicka: 100% Fire dmg --> 25% Elemental Expert --> 125% dmg (100 points invested)
Stamina: 70% Phys dmg + 30% Fire dmg --> 25% Mighty + 25% Elemental Expert --> 125% dmg (200 points invested)

The result is the same. You just have to invest into multiple different passives. There are no doubledips that don't exist for Magicka AND Stamina.

How I understood it, was that Magicka is superior early as you dont need to invest that much CP (as you stated 100) and Stamina will catch up later as you need more CP to buff all components. Basicly what your numbers also state. Where did your bain.exe crash. I might have missworded my statement somehow?! Damn english failing me

Xantaria · June 2015

You said 'magic dmg' that's why I expected you meant to say 'magicka dmg' which i would have interpreted as 'magicka-based dmg' because 'magic dmg' on DK made no sense.

eventide03b14a_ESO · June 2015

I'm waiting for this to turn into a nerf sorc thread.

Leandor · June 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I'm waiting for this to turn into a nerf sorc thread.

Since you mention it, can we get a streak nerf? That CC component is just too strong.

Xantaria · June 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Some of our players theorized that at some point with enough CP, Stamina will become superior as there are more DPS increasing passives in the Champion System for Stamina DPS than for Magicka DK where almost everything scales with Elemental Expert.

This made it sound like you were saying you can get more %-dmg out of the champion system as a Stamina build than you could get as a Magicka build.

Edit: Nerf Overload.

Jeckll · June 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Some of our players theorized that at some point with enough CP, Stamina will become superior as there are more DPS increasing passives in the Champion System for Stamina DPS than for Magicka DK where almost everything scales with Elemental Expert.

This made it sound like you were saying you can get more %-dmg out of the champion system as a Stamina build than you could get as a Magicka build.

Ah, I see what you mean. Sorry for the bad syntax. I dont disagree with you. What you said to explain was basicly what I tried to say

EDIT: Nerf Bound Armor.

Cuyler · June 2015

Double potion popping and camo hunter exploit need fixing, everything else here fine imo. Camo hunter you don't even have to have on your bar anymore once it procs, too OP.

Alcast · June 2015

Xantaria wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

I am Leveling a DK atm, will show you when i am v14...could take a while though.

You don't have my permission to show my DK build in these forums. These peasants will copy me and I will ultimately get nerfed. NONONO that's not what I want!!!

Edit: Look, I got 2 sharpened maces as my profile pic now. Do I now gain extra (double) forum penetration?

Not gonna use your noob build, got a better one

PBpsy · June 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I'm waiting for this to turn into a nerf sorc thread.

Every thread is a nerf sorc thread by default.

Forestd16b14_ESO · June 2015

Well just wanna point out before update 6 stamina builds were utterly useless. So I don't see why players want nerfs if they were they ones who wanted it buffed in the first place to become a valid build and combat mechanic.

Also here's hopeing that update 7 makes health builds a valid choice health really needs some love and start to benafit something. Cause right now what be the point of adding any points to health when magicka and stamina offer just as good defense with shield stacking and roll dodge but also add DPS boost. Plus the fact you can just fill in the health void with enchantments and what not.

BEZDNA · June 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Magicka DK out DPSes a Stamina DK even with all the bugs mentioned...at least in our raids (Same players tested both multiple times).

All I can say is that in my experience, Stamina DPS needs to use a lot of tricks/bugs to be competitive.

BuggeX wrote: »

yea thats true, but this is becaus all Dk skills and Dots deal Magic Dmg, and with Magica you go automatic also on Magic Penetration.

First one is a L2P issue.

Second one is wrong. Unstable Flame is basically the strongest DoT in the freaking game. And guess what it's based on? Stamina.

and deals FLAME Dmg, Flame Dmg is affected by Spell Penetration and not Armor Penetration,

edit: and guess wath? i give a *** about your unstable flame with my 50k mres

Unstable Flame scales from stamina and weapon damage, migtigated be Physical Armor and has nothing common with spell resis/ spell penetratin. Stod posting wrong statments here

BEZDNA · June 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well just wanna point out before update 6 stamina builds were utterly useless. So I don't see why players want nerfs if they were they ones who wanted it buffed in the first place to become a valid build and combat mechani

I don't want stamina builds to be nerfed, but i want bugs, such as sharpend mace, camo hunter and revanger prock from caltrops and caltrops from multiple ppl not stacking on one enemy ( at list for pve) to be fixed.

Alcast · June 2015

BEZDNA wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well just wanna point out before update 6 stamina builds were utterly useless. So I don't see why players want nerfs if they were they ones who wanted it buffed in the first place to become a valid build and combat mechani

I don't want stamina builds to be nerfed, but i want bugs, such as sharpend mace, camo hunter and revanger prock from caltrops and caltrops from multiple ppl not stacking on one enemy ( at list for pve) to be fixed.

caltrops is melee, you step on the caltrops, thats like 0meters range. /jk

BuggeX · June 2015

BEZDNA wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Xantaria wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Magicka DK out DPSes a Stamina DK even with all the bugs mentioned...at least in our raids (Same players tested both multiple times).

All I can say is that in my experience, Stamina DPS needs to use a lot of tricks/bugs to be competitive.

BuggeX wrote: »

yea thats true, but this is becaus all Dk skills and Dots deal Magic Dmg, and with Magica you go automatic also on Magic Penetration.

First one is a L2P issue.

Second one is wrong. Unstable Flame is basically the strongest DoT in the freaking game. And guess what it's based on? Stamina.

and deals FLAME Dmg, Flame Dmg is affected by Spell Penetration and not Armor Penetration,

edit: and guess wath? i give a *** about your unstable flame with my 50k mres

Unstable Flame scales from stamina and weapon damage, migtigated be Physical Armor and has nothing common with spell resis/ spell penetratin. Stod posting wrong statments here

WUUT? DK just has 1 Skill wich does actually pysical dmg, and this is Dragon leap and Morphs.

U.Flame and burning Breath does both Flame Dmg wich get reduced by Flame Resi or Magic Resi. but not by Armor

Durham · June 2015

Stamina weapon abilities cannot block cast.... This is huge, also the reason DKs are leaving stamina in favor for magicka
Classes skills are still dominated by magicka based abilities.
Stamina aoe abilities can be blocked unlike impulse... That is extremely unfair lol...
Healing sucks unless you have Vigor....
Spamming Stamina abilities can be a negative especially if you constantly CCed you lose a ton of DPS...
Stamina DPS has no access to super powerful detonations.. Therefore a much weaker bomb DPS...

Both have disadvantages ... Stamina is fine as is....

Forestd16b14_ESO · June 2015

BEZDNA wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Well just wanna point out before update 6 stamina builds were utterly useless. So I don't see why players want nerfs if they were they ones who wanted it buffed in the first place to become a valid build and combat mechani

I don't want stamina builds to be nerfed, but i want bugs, such as sharpend mace, camo hunter and revanger prock from caltrops and caltrops from multiple ppl not stacking on one enemy ( at list for pve) to be fixed.

Again I heard that the the mace passive for sharpness was bugs to not give any piercing power. So what is it? Also again my wish does stand of hopeing health builds and health in general gets some love cause again what's the point of adding points to health. Lastly clatrops just need reworked in general

every time I see some players fighting or even me the other guy always throws them down. Like they really can't be that OP that you have to have them in every single fight right?

Personofsecrets · June 2015

Alcast wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

i see that. nobody is discussing the significance of the warlock set here. It is a comparison, an example, to show that things that are hard to get shouldn't necessarily better than things that are easy to get. There are plenty of examples in the game of that. Shroud of the Lich, Draugrs Heritage, Histbark, Torugs Pact, Malubeth 2 piece undaunted set, staff of the sun, etc, etc, show this.

If you are using Warlock set for PvE, you are doing smth wrong and wo wonder you dont get same dps numbers as stamina builds LOL. Go full Spelldamage and voila. Stop QQ and start theorycrafting to improve your builds etc...jeeez

How is it not clear, even after I've said this multiple times in this very thread, that I am

1. discussing comparisons to the ravager set for the purpose of showing that hard to get things don't have to be good

2. not that concerned with pvp. I don't care what is viable because most of pvp is broken.

I even write point 1 in what you quoted. If you are going to troll, then physically remove yourself.

rokrdt05 · June 2015

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bugs

1. "Sharpened Mace is bugged atm, giving you over 70% armor penetration instead of 17%."
2. "Use the Double Potion Trick: You can use a regular Potion of Stamina or Panacea of Stamina without triggering the Cooldown of a Panacea of Weapon Power."
3. "I used to use Evil Hunter because you get Stamina back on proc but atm, this morph is bugged and if you kill a few undeads/deadra with this buff enabled, the buffs duration is basicly forever." > Camouflaged hunter bugged.
4. "Ravager procs acts normal, unless you use caltrops. With Caltrops you can have it up 90% of the time. According to Zenimax Caltrops can't be considered as mele damage (they fixed Imperial passive proc from caltrops), so following these logic they also shud fix Revenger proc from caltrops."

Overtuned

1. Wrecking blow hits silly hard.
2. Biting Jabs hits silly hard.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please pass this along.

1. Do you have specific numbers on what you've tested on? Or is this something that you've read and though, "Oh wow, this does need to be fixed"
2. Double potion potting does not add DPS only increased resource pool. (Which I suppose if you look at it that way, that's a resource pool you would have been out of sooner and not doing DPS) Either way, PvE it's not an issue, but I can see it being op in PvP.
3. Evil Hunter is working as intended with the exception on the amount of times it procs. Camo Hunter is working as intended with the exception of how long it supposed to last.
4. I am not fully familiar with this set and proc to chance to comment on it.

1. Yes, it does hit hard and has a 1 sec cast time. Other classes have comparable abilities.
Templar - Dark Flare (1.1s cast time also adds empower just like Wrecking Blow and procs the Templar passive of Dawn's Wrath ability granting Minor Sorcery giving 5% spell damage)
Sorcerer - Crystal Frags (1s cast time, the free proc provides empower)

Other abilities in general it hard as well.
Snipe - This (from what I've seen) hits much harder than WB does.

Either way in PvP or PvE, differently abilities have different advantages over the other.

I saw you mentioned it hits hard than Executioner... well that ability is just that... an EXECUTIONER. It's an instant cast and has no cast time.

2. Biting Jabs will of course hit hard when stacks for weapon damage and stamina pool... Hell the magicka version is (almost) comparable in terms of damage. You just cannot stack spell damage as you can weapon.

Also in PvP this leaves the caster unable to block while performing this skill, leaving them open to unmitigated damage.

My suggestion is to actually look at comparable skills and abilities and stop QQ'ing. None of what you have mentioned (with the exception of the double potting) is a game breaker.

Personofsecrets · June 2015

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

OP - You forgot the spammable, skilless, 12m radius stamina abuse that is Steel Tornado.

Otherwise agree...

I'm really not sure about this one. I've seen it used to pretty good success in vdsa, but that is about it.

Personofsecrets · June 2015

rokrdt05 wrote: »

My suggestion is to actually look at comparable skills and abilities and stop QQ'ing. None of what you have mentioned (with the exception of the double potting) is a game breaker.

We totally need to ignore those other 3 bugs because the game isn't literally crashing due to them.