Nerf Stamina DPS and It's Bugs

Personofsecrets

Alcast wrote: »

If you are having magicka issues, then you are doing something realllllllllly wrong.
Ele drain and you should be up 100% magicka 24/7

what does this even mean?

turbonights

Ffastyl wrote: »

Wait...
Is this a nerf Templars thread!?

By Zenithar, we are finally OP!

Looks like the main one that's been validated here is just Nightblade stamina as we can't get the cool evil hunter/camoflauge permanence as DK or Templar, I don't think...

Alcast

I am confused

Personofsecrets

Alcast wrote: »

I am confused

i see that. nobody is discussing the significance of the warlock set here. It is a comparison, an example, to show that things that are hard to get shouldn't necessarily better than things that are easy to get. There are plenty of examples in the game of that. Shroud of the Lich, Draugrs Heritage, Histbark, Torugs Pact, Malubeth 2 piece undaunted set, staff of the sun, etc, etc, show this.

HxC

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If you are having magicka issues, then you are doing something realllllllllly wrong.
Ele drain and you should be up 100% magicka 24/7

what does this even mean?

Current metagame for endgame Pve (trials,VDSA) , Magicka DPS go full dps on gear and CP and Healer use Orb or elemental drain, for their magicka sustain.

People will also use spell symmetry on specific encounters.

Personofsecrets

HxC wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If you are having magicka issues, then you are doing something realllllllllly wrong.
Ele drain and you should be up 100% magicka 24/7

what does this even mean?

Current metagame for endgame Pve (trials,VDSA) , Magicka DPS go full dps on gear and CP and Healer use Orb or elemental drain, for their magicka sustain.

People will also use spell symmetry on specific encounters.

there is a context to this thread and how magicka dps recover its resources is not one of these contexts.

HxC

Personofsecrets wrote: »

HxC wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If you are having magicka issues, then you are doing something realllllllllly wrong.
Ele drain and you should be up 100% magicka 24/7

what does this even mean?

Current metagame for endgame Pve (trials,VDSA) , Magicka DPS go full dps on gear and CP and Healer use Orb or elemental drain, for their magicka sustain.

People will also use spell symmetry on specific encounters.

there is a context to this thread and how magicka dps recover its resources is not one of these contexts.

You asking a question, i reply.

ssewallb14_ESO

Wow.

Just re-write the armor/spell penetration code. At this point it's just sad.

Aldruin

Gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8

DDuke

These bugs are a thing actually, OP is not making them up or anything.

Though as pointed before, magicka also has many similar bugs (e.g. Nirnhoned+Apprentice), and magicka DK is currently still the number one in dmg meters.

Personofsecrets

DDuke wrote: »

These bugs are a thing actually, OP is not making them up or anything.

Though as pointed before, magicka also has many similar bugs (e.g. Nirnhoned+Apprentice), and magicka DK is currently still the number one in dmg meters.

Yes, magicka DK, especially if it is powerful due to bugs, should be looked at.

BEZDNA

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bugs

1. "Sharpened Mace is bugged atm, giving you over 70% armor penetration instead of 17%."
2. "Use the Double Potion Trick: You can use a regular Potion of Stamina or Panacea of Stamina without triggering the Cooldown of a Panacea of Weapon Power."
3. "I used to use Evil Hunter because you get Stamina back on proc but atm, this morph is bugged and if you kill a few undeads/deadra with this buff enabled, the buffs duration is basicly forever." > Camouflaged hunter bugged.

1. Sharpened Mace is bugged for user. Spends 2 days myself to test it and got similar result in about 70% armor penetration from it.
2. Also can confirm that these bug exist, you are able to use certain 2 times in a row, because some type of potions do not trigger pot cool down.
3. Never heard about evil hunter bug, but Camouflaged hunter bug is also exist since 1.6. According to our tests each undead mob ads you 15 min to the duration instead of 15 sec as it is written in tool tip.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Overtuned

1. Wrecking blow hits silly hard.
2. Biting Jabs hits silly hard.
3. Ravager Set procs silly often.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please pass this along.

1-2 points are balance issues and in my opinion those abilities hit OK, not too hard, but also not low.
3. Revenge procs acts normal, unless you use caltrops. With Caltrops you can have it up 90% of the time. According to Zenimax Caltrops can't be considered as mele damage (they fixed Imperial passive proc from caltrops), so following these logic they also shud fix Revenger proc from caltrops. / better to put it into bug topic/

Alcast wrote: »

1. Nirnhoned+Apprentice causing the same bug.

Nirnhoned+Apprentice was fixed quite long time ago and works correct right now, that bug doesn't exist anymore but sharpend mace penetration bug still in the game.

MCMancub wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bugs

1. "Sharpened Mace is bugged atm, giving you over 70% armor penetration instead of 17%."

You're taking this from here, which isn't any official source. Even the "source" he provides doesn't prove anything since you can't know a boss's armor. It doesn't even show anything remotely leading to his claim.

EDIT: How does he know the extra damage he's getting is the result of extra armor penetration and not simply low armor? See how his claim makes literally no sense?

If you are good at math and now how to use it you can find out bosses armor, just need to put some effort in it. I was taking part in sharpend mace research with Jeckll at the same time and we end up with the same results. The only difference that he was working on damage outup and i was working on damage migtigation and armor penetration.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bugs
2. "Use the Double Potion Trick: You can use a regular Potion of Stamina or Panacea of Stamina without triggering the Cooldown of a Panacea of Weapon Power."

Overtuned

1. Wrecking blow hits silly hard.

The potion trick / bug also works with other potions, so it's not only a stamina dps issue.

There are skills that provide you higher dps than wrecking blow, so it's fine for pve and in pvp you can just walk out of it.

btw. even the best stamina dps seem not to be able to beat magicka dks in terms of sustained dps, so no need to nerf them.

Leandor

Ravager is supposed to proc of "melee range dots attacks". It procs of everything, including persistent large area dots like caltrops. This can and should be considered as bugged and should at least be evaluated.

A full set (5 pieces)costs exactly 1'240'000 AP. To achieve this, a casual PvE player needs probably months. This is then purple and needs to be upgraded.

A golden hunding's nets 265/299 (questioned, will check later) weapon power as the 5-piece. Ravager purple gold nets 622 and is up almost constantly due to caltrops, close to 2.5 2 times the bonus. Moreover, ravager provides additional weapon damage as 4-piece, hunding's does not. Please get your facts straight, @MCMancub .

Concerning the proc rate, the main issue with ravager is the fact, that AoE dots hitting multiple targets have a 8% chance of procing it on each time they cause damage, thus in fact increasing the 8% chance given in tool tip to a certainty of proc on a single ability cast.

The way it should be is that it checks on ability cast instead of on damage done and therewith not favoring AoE over single target. The way it is right now, the total bonus should be tuned down to hunding's level.

Ravager is the one and only reason why people are able to push weapon damage beyond 4k. It is much more broken than twin sisters ever was, and that set got nerfed to ground.

Dodging wrecking blow is easier said than done. If not dodged immediately on start of its animation, it will hit you no matter if dodged or not. The ability would be fine, if it is easy to dodge.

Sharpened maces providing more armor penetration than intended due to broken stacking of the two functionalities has been "proven" by players several times. Refusing to believe it does not make you look intelligent.

In closing, all points of OP are correct, valid and good feedback. Just because some don't know it doesn't make it untrue.

EDIT: some corrections. That comes from trusting tooltips on the internet instead of checking by yourself.
EDIT2: One more correction. Proc reason for Ravager.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

DDuke wrote: »

These bugs are a thing actually, OP is not making them up or anything.

Though as pointed before, magicka also has many similar bugs (e.g. Nirnhoned+Apprentice), and magicka DK is currently still the number one in dmg meters.

The [insert spell/armor reducing trait]+[other thing that does the same] bug is their terrible penetration code.

I wasn't aware of the evil hunter bug, that actually wounds serious. And ravager is an issuse but not a pressing one (it is easy to get and the proc is nearly 100% by throwing caltrops)

BEZDNA

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

btw. even the best stamina dps seem not to be able to beat magicka dks in terms of sustained dps, so no need to nerf them.

It is becous magika dk needs less CP to get max benifit from champion system. So far if you have 100 points in elemental damage is bussts your DPS like crazy and then benifits go down, howeawer other clases need to spread there CP over elmental damage and magic damage (magica sorc/nb/templar) or phisical and magic/ poison damage + elemental damage for stamina nb/templars/ sorcs and dk.

What i want to say is that befor whining about nerf this or that class becous at the current state of the game he does more damage, you have to wait till ppl will max out champion trees which directrly benifit there dps and only after that start to compare clases and builds.

Zanen

Caltrops ticks don't proc ravager or red diamond on console. It's a known issue slated for revision on PC.

It's a good change for the game, they need to address the resistance/penetration issues but those are key to balance and have to be done correctly.

There are a great many bugs that need to be eliminated before any true balance pass can be made.

PBpsy

No I just joined the Derp legion. I like the push snipe button and win play style.

MCMancub

Leandor wrote: »

A golden hunding's nets 265 weapon power as the 5-piece. Ravager purple nets 622 and is up almost constantly due to caltrops, close to 2.5 times the bonus. Moreover, ravager provides additional weapon damage as 4-piece, hunding's does not. Please get your facts straight, @MCMancub .

@Leandor
I'm wearing golden Hunding's and get 299. Furthermore, purple Ravager's gives 600. Get your facts right.



EDIT: You're right, it doesn't provide weapon damage like Ravager's does. It does however adds more than double the crit and it adds stamina, which increases....weapon damage.

This thread is nothing more than people who don't play stamina DPS whining about stamina DPS from things they've read on other forums.

BEZDNA

MCMancub wrote: »

This thread is nothing more than people who don't play stamina DPS whining about stamina DPS from things they've read on other forums.

you are wrong, i play stamina dps and i know exactly what i'm talking about

lathbury

Even with these bugs in place magika users are still outclassing stamina users in sustained damage and utility. So while I agree they should be fixed it will have to come with a whole load of rebalancing or banish stamina back to where it was at launch and endgame will return to the pyjama party it was.
I say this playing 2 nb's 1 is a breton magika user the other a bosmer stamina user. They do comparable sustained dps but the magika user off heals while doing dps and is safer as he is at range so he is more welcome in trials. my magika user can also with a change of a couple of pieces of gear and a swapping a few skills heal at endgame. As an aside both are outclassed by dk pyromages who have access to some gear that is practically tailor made for them skoria, sun silk set and others.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Wait mace sharpened gives more? I heard that it was bugged to not give any armor piercing at all heance why no one uses maces or hammers.

Personofsecrets

BEZDNA wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bugs

1. "Sharpened Mace is bugged atm, giving you over 70% armor penetration instead of 17%."
2. "Use the Double Potion Trick: You can use a regular Potion of Stamina or Panacea of Stamina without triggering the Cooldown of a Panacea of Weapon Power."
3. "I used to use Evil Hunter because you get Stamina back on proc but atm, this morph is bugged and if you kill a few undeads/deadra with this buff enabled, the buffs duration is basicly forever." > Camouflaged hunter bugged.

1. Sharpened Mace is bugged for user. Spends 2 days myself to test it and got similar result in about 70% armor penetration from it.
2. Also can confirm that these bug exist, you are able to use certain 2 times in a row, because some type of potions do not trigger pot cool down.
3. Never heard about evil hunter bug, but Camouflaged hunter bug is also exist since 1.6. According to our tests each undead mob ads you 15 min to the duration instead of 15 sec as it is written in tool tip.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Overtuned

1. Wrecking blow hits silly hard.
2. Biting Jabs hits silly hard.
3. Ravager Set procs silly often.

@ZOS_GinaBruno please pass this along.

1-2 points are balance issues and in my opinion those abilities hit OK, not too hard, but also not low.
3. Revenge procs acts normal, unless you use caltrops. With Caltrops you can have it up 90% of the time. According to Zenimax Caltrops can't be considered as mele damage (they fixed Imperial passive proc from caltrops), so following these logic they also shud fix Revenger proc from caltrops. / better to put it into bug topic/

Alcast wrote: »

1. Nirnhoned+Apprentice causing the same bug.

Nirnhoned+Apprentice was fixed quite long time ago and works correct right now, that bug doesn't exist anymore but sharpend mace penetration bug still in the game.

MCMancub wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bugs

1. "Sharpened Mace is bugged atm, giving you over 70% armor penetration instead of 17%."

You're taking this from here, which isn't any official source. Even the "source" he provides doesn't prove anything since you can't know a boss's armor. It doesn't even show anything remotely leading to his claim.

EDIT: How does he know the extra damage he's getting is the result of extra armor penetration and not simply low armor? See how his claim makes literally no sense?

If you are good at math and now how to use it you can find out bosses armor, just need to put some effort in it. I was taking part in sharpend mace research with Jeckll at the same time and we end up with the same results. The only difference that he was working on damage outup and i was working on damage migtigation and armor penetration.

Thank you for the long post discussing the op topic. I will switch the ravager issue to be under the bug list right now. As far as biting jabs and wrecking blow, there are a few things that make me feel they are over tuned.

Wrecking blow - Though quite a few of the people I play with are not happy with this ability in pvp, I think it's spot in pvp could be overstated do to pvp being an unbalanced place no matter what skills are being used. I've been using wrecking blow and leveling up in pve. My mind is boggled that it does more damage per hit than execution. Someone brought up the point that it is a slower attack than the execution and that is a fair point to make, but they took no effort to discuss that wrecking blow can be used the entire fight and even buffs damage.

Biting jabs - I've been using it in pve and getting it to deal about as much damage as wrecking blow. I've always seen this spammed, spam it myself, and hearing how well it is doing in vdsa made me consider that is overtuned despite the 'channel' time.

Please, if you have the spare moments, point out more interactions such as the caltrops one, or abilities that you could see being brought in line with wrecking blow/biting jabs.

Personofsecrets

Leandor wrote: »

Dodging wrecking blow is easier said than done. If not dodged immediately on start of its animation, it will hit you no matter if dodged or not. The ability would be fine, if it is easy to dodge.

.

This is a major problem I see everywhere. X cant happen because of the Y countering strategy against it. Everything has a counter and mentioning that vapid fact without discussing the viability of the counter is misinformation at best.

In this case the issue is with doing something reactivity and, probably, in response to being stunned. The reward for dodging wrecking blow is not dying, but that certainly isn't going to do much against the opponent besides make them cast the ability again.

Personofsecrets

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bugs
2. "Use the Double Potion Trick: You can use a regular Potion of Stamina or Panacea of Stamina without triggering the Cooldown of a Panacea of Weapon Power."

Overtuned

1. Wrecking blow hits silly hard.

The potion trick / bug also works with other potions, so it's not only a stamina dps issue.

There are skills that provide you higher dps than wrecking blow, so it's fine for pve and in pvp you can just walk out of it.

btw. even the best stamina dps seem not to be able to beat magicka dks in terms of sustained dps, so no need to nerf them.

I've only ever known the weapon power potion to work immediately after another different potion has been used. What other potions do this?

BobOfTibia

Ajaxduo

Some of these points are correct however stamina DPS is still behind Magicka specs, DK for example. The dual potion issue isn't restricted to stamina user (they also need to fix pots giving a GCD, it's clunky as hell). Biting Jabs is not 'overtuned' the reason it is 'spammed' is because it is the main part of the rotation, just like force pulse, molten whip, wrecking blow, surprise attack etc. Also as someone pointed out you are essentially giving everyone free CC immunity that you hit with jabs. Wrecking blow hits hard sure but it is extremely easy to avoid (I find Crit Rush + dodge roll/cc combo far more reliable). That's the flavour of PvP atm dodge roll or shield stack, catch your opponent off guard and burst them down. As for the complaint about the Ravager set a player could easily drop it for 2 piece shadow walker and 3 piece morag and then benefit from 2 weapon dmg bonuses with constant up time and full MA passives. I don't see how this set is over powered at all, it's just min maxing and it will always exist in PvE. If Caltrops truly is unintended to proc it then I'm sure they'll adjust it. It won't stop people from using Caltrops though.

Personofsecrets

Ajaxduo wrote: »

Some of these points are correct however stamina DPS is still behind Magicka specs, DK for example. The dual potion issue isn't restricted to stamina user (they also need to fix pots giving a GCD, it's clunky as hell). Biting Jabs is not 'overtuned' the reason it is 'spammed' is because it is the main part of the rotation, just like force pulse, molten whip, wrecking blow, surprise attack etc. Also as someone pointed out you are essentially giving everyone free CC immunity that you hit with jabs. Wrecking blow hits hard sure but it is extremely easy to avoid (I find Crit Rush + dodge roll/cc combo far more reliable). That's the flavour of PvP atm dodge roll or shield stack, catch your opponent off guard and burst them down. As for the complaint about the Ravager set a player could easily drop it for 2 piece shadow walker and 3 piece morag and then benefit from 2 weapon dmg bonuses with constant up time and full MA passives. I don't see how this set is over powered at all, it's just min maxing and it will always exist in PvE. If Caltrops truly is unintended to proc it then I'm sure they'll adjust it. It won't stop people from using Caltrops though.

GCD is a different issue than being able to chug 2 potions back to back, but yes the gcd on certain pots is annoying for everyone .

the overtuning of jabs has 0 to do with if it is a major part of a rotation. if it is overtuned or just a finely tuned ability, then it will be the major part of a rotation.

Also, I have to repeat over and over, that I'm not primarily concerned with pvp. I don't care about what can be dodged or what gives cc-immunity as it isn't what primarily is responsible for my view on the skills.

BRogueNZ

Alcast wrote: »

1. Nirnhoned+Apprentice causing the same bug.

orly...

I'm so naïve about these things. I wonder how long they exist before they make it on to the forums.

Edit. Just noticed it has apparently been fixed.

Jeckll

MCMancub wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Bugs

1. "Sharpened Mace is bugged atm, giving you over 70% armor penetration instead of 17%."

You're taking this from here, which isn't any official source. Even the "source" he provides doesn't prove anything since you can't know a boss's armor. It doesn't even show anything remotely leading to his claim.

EDIT: How does he know the extra damage he's getting is the result of extra armor penetration and not simply low armor? See how his claim makes literally no sense?

First of all, you can confirm a mobs Armor as you know the damage mitigation formula.
Second, it only takes 5 minutes to confirm the bug even without the math skills to provide the exact numbers. This is a parse from a Rift Mammoth, attacked with Flying Blade and 0 pt in Piercing. Offhand is always a dagger with no trait.

Mainhand: Dagger precise: 3533
Mainhand: Mace precise: 3612 (2,23% increased damage)
Mainhand: Mace sharpened: 4078 (15,68% increased damage)

A Rift Mammoth is Vr10, which means 610 Armor migrated 1% damage. (Check formula thread)
From the parse, we know that a mace precise increases our damage by 2,23% so 610*2,23=1360,3 Armor reduction. A single mace reduces 10% of the targets armor with means a Mammoth has 13603 Armor.

A Sharpened Mace gives us 15,68% increased damage * 610 = 9564,8 Armor reduction.
If 13603 is 100% armor, 9564,8 is 70,31% of that.

My "claim" is supported by other theorycrafters like @Alcast and @BEZDNA and we spend hours of hours in testing while you dont come up with any prove we're wrong. We have numbers ANYONE can get in the game.

@Personofsecrets while I dont mind that you copied parts my work word by word, it would be nice to give me a quick notice next time. It's not mandatory obviously as I gladly share my work with the community. It would just be...you know...nice.