mdhammond wrote: »

Salter Ty for not reading but I do both. But no I see no way pve adversely affects pvp on any game, it's always the other way around. Always pvp that gets everything changed and nerfed

Plenty of things happened in ESO in terms of balancing for PvE, that affected PvP.
Take the ultimate generation system: it was done so that tanks in PvE could generate as much ulti as dps and healers.

mdhammond wrote: »

Ok then so let's say occasionally a pve skill change affects a pvp build, it's still like 100-1 that this happens. The proof is obvious in every online game forum that's ever existed. The pvp complaints and nerf or buff requests bury the few random pve requests. No debating that. The two just need to be kept separate plain and simple. I shouldn't have to have the build I've quested with forever and love changed simply bc some person in pvp found a way to make it OP. How can you argue that? Why are pvp defenders so reluctant to play on their own zone with balancing separate from pve? Why do the majority seem to want their changes to affect everybody?

Just look at the getting rid of vet ranks threads, everyone that is in favor of removing them for pvp wants em gone for everyone, I'm the only one I've seen suggest just get rid of em in pvp if it's a problem. Why do pvp problems have to affect the entire gaming community?

I can give you more examples. When new raids comes abilities gets nerfed and buffed due to new mechanics, new gear, etc. Meaning pve balance would have to change no matter what. You would never be able to run your leveling setup through a whole game. Lets say X class is really good in Y raid because the boss mechanics are made for aoe (lets make this example simple). Then next raid comes out. This raid has non aoe boss fights, meaning the X class will be bad because he was only good due to the aoe. That means he has to get buffed on his single target damage and nerfed aoe damage wise. This changes the class both in pve and in pvp. It also makes your "play with the leveling setup" not work anymore. Now you have to make a new setup even tho pvp never existed. The same thing goes if they add a new set bonus. Then they might have to tweak the pve skills just to make the set bonus not get op for certain mechanics.

For the Vet Rank I hardly belive only the pvp:ers QQ about it. It prevents you from reaching the end game content such as trails and as far as I know, trails are pve and not pvp. Belive it or not but in games like WoW (using this as an example due to experience) the game doesn't really start for anyone untill you reach the end game content. Not even for pve:ers. For them it's all about the max level instances and mainly the raids. The progression in raids to become the world first, to get full gear, to just have managed to clear the full raid while it's still the hardest raid to date and even to prepare for the new upcoming raid.

It's just not about one thing ruining the other. It's about how you mix it and makes it work. Every game need changes from time to time. That includes skill wise with buffs/nerfs/skill reworks in order to maintain the fun of veriaty that the majority wants. Most people gets bored of doing the same over and over again. Some people wants competition and some doesn't. A RPG game needs to entertain both of those sides in order to compete against the other RPG games.

On a side note: Balance =/= Fun. You need a certain amount of balance though

Back in an interview before launch (The PC launch, not the console one), there was an interview/article (Can't remember which was it, can't go looking, on my phone) with ZoS about the designs of skills in ESO. They said that they didn't want to create two separate sets of skill abilities for PvE and PvP. The reason being is that they wanted you to be viable, and maintain some sort of equality between skill usage for the two. The idea was that you could go in with PvE gear into Cyrodill, and still be somewhat effective. Same goes vici versa. Also, crafting was meant to have some of the most powerful sets available so that crafters would be relevant in end-game.

ESO wasn't designed with vet ranks in mind. The original design was for you to hit level 50, then head into Cyrodiil for the end game. A PvP focused end game. However, the feedback from the community was that they wanted to experience all quests with a single character, so Cadwell's Silver and Gold was implemented. That was also the reasoning behind the VR cap raise from 10->12 and later on from 12->14 as they wanted to give people a sense of progress. Unfortunately for ZoS, that didn't go as well as they planned, so the Champion System was conceived. As a result of that, the CS is throwing all previous semblance of balance of power out of whack in Cyrodiil, and thus in the end PvPers had to suffer for purely PvE driven sense of progression. To most PvPers, the Alliance Rank progression system was good enough for us.

Throughout all this, Templars have gotten the short end of the stick over and over again. Focused Charge got gutted with a GCD due to bots using it in PvE to farm mobs. Puncturing Strikes gives out free CC-immunity like candy to targets hit by it due to PvE Templar stunlock of mobs. Restoring Spirit was gutted in beta because some people in PvE managed to stack Magicka so high, that spells became free. Also, Templars have an above average Magicka costs because of the original design of Restoring Spirit as a Magicka battery. I really really pity Templars, and this is coming from a Nightblade.

Elemental Drain was gutted as someone managed to use it to solo AA bosses. Energy orb as well. Then the bow turned from a weapon that required skill to use to brainless snipe spamming because of PvEers concerns about "Low bow DPS". That in turn caused ZoS to totally gut every single bow skill that wasn't called "Snipe" in 1.6. I used the bow from beta to 1.5, to which I was finally forced to put it down in 1.6 because of the sheer gutting it received, to which the only remaining bow based playstyle was snipe spam. Something I refuse to do.

That's not to mention Sparks, Blinding Flashes and Ash Cloud, all either nerfed or removed because of PvE. Let's just face it. PvE and PvP in this game have linked fates. They will never ever be fully free from each other. Blaming PvPers for "nerfs" is just simply unfair and asinine when you considered what happened to PvP.

Oh, and most of the lag in Cyrodiil is due to the anti-botting code ZoS put in, to solve a problem that was purely PvE exclusive. Food for thought.

mdhammond wrote: »

@Jultzy. That's very well put and I can't argue with much in there lol. Touché

Still wish there was more separation, I don't like caps and nerfs and even with the good points you made you can't deny that the vast majority of these are bc of pvp

As what @DeanTheCat I can probobly deny it

I guess we just see the complainters the most on the forums and since pvp is (at least should) a skill based competition. Balance will be a huge thing for pvp players. No one wants to lose to someone who's really bad but has just spent much more time in the game so he can beat you without skills. In pve it's more about teamwork and you don't fight other players. You only play with them. Then fewer will complain and they will mainly complain if their class becomes unnecessary for the "raid".

Edit:

mdhammond wrote: »

@Dean, very nice post. You've opened my eyes a good bit. Still makes me lean towards separation is the only easy answer, it's the only thing that's ever really worked that I know of without crippling someone's build

It's probobly the easy answer but is it the best answer?

Etaniel wrote: »

mdhammond wrote: »

Salter Ty for not reading but I do both. But no I see no way pve adversely affects pvp on any game, it's always the other way around. Always pvp that gets everything changed and nerfed

Plenty of things happened in ESO in terms of balancing for PvE, that affected PvP.
Take the ultimate generation system: it was done so that tanks in PvE could generate as much ulti as dps and healers.

No it was changed so that the zergball ultimate generation in and out of combat be reduced .Every other reason that was given was and still is complete nonsense. PVP was the reason behind Meteors Online.

It is quite amusing. For that whole period since launch to that terrible eso live when they announced the change.I have not once heard any tank complain that the dps or heals use more ultimate then them. Never. It wasn't even true most tanks were actually pretty capable of getting decent amounts of ultimate before. I certainly never had a problem on my DK tank back then.

Yes, i think PVP ruins rpg.

What part? The PVP junkies whining and crying. Because of that, no matter if its justified or not, ZOS changes aspects of game that reflect on people who just want to have fun in PvE.

I think pvp makes mmos, since the best rpgs are all single player games; mmos are usually pretty bad rpgs.

However, I understand your point to a degree. Imo, gear/grind based pvp where your power is heavily determined by a player's equipment or level is a driver behind the desire to quickly burn through content to get to "the top", instead of enjoying the "rpg elements" of a mmo.

There both needed in a decent rpg.

I like the pve side but sometimes it does get a bit boring so i like the ability to be able instantly go straight the pvp and with battle leveling i have average stats in there.

Pvp is like the aim of most end gamers. You grind your cp and vet rank until 14 until your stronger than battle leveling and can turn it off. Without pvp what would be the point of getting really high end game?