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Guild stores are flooded and no one is buying
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daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ourorboros wrote: »Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
In addition to Lord RIchter's comment above, I posted earlier about issues with Master Merchant and other add-ons. I NEVER set my starting price above what is recommended by MM. However, the market is so volatile, I often see my items become overpriced within a matter of days. If my guild missed getting a vendor, I can just about forget selling most items listed that week. By the time we get the vendor my once reasonable prices are higher than the market. I am actually taking this in consideration when I buy things now. If an item is red, and just listed, the seller is gouging, But if the item has been listed for more than a few days, it may have been fairly priced. I'll buy it if there is not a cheaper one listed.
This is why we need a global auction house.
It can actually be an argument the other way, in all honesty...lordrichter wrote: »I do feel that ZOS should add more demand on the gemstones for traits so their value goes up.
This is the first game I have played where precious gems have no value, including prior TES titles.Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
Not necessarily true.
MM is not an absolute. There is considerable variation and what is high for you might be higher or lower for someone else.
I sell stuff over my MM average price all the time.
This is why we need a global auction house. The only way to get a fair price is to have all items available to everyone at the same time without having to run all over the map. Then MM will show us the average sale price of all items of the same type. Not just the sale of the at most 2500 people it can currently track per account.
That would actually make it worse. Currently MM is constantly downtrending everything because the social condition is to always price lower than listed to "sell first"
As that occurs, over and over, everything devalues to the point of hilarity. Or have you not seen the downtrend in say... v1 warlock signets this month alone? They went from 9k to 4k. Not because the sales volume increased, it has remained relatively steady, but because player greed for a quick sale drove the average down, making the next guy drop his, and the next, and the next.
I challenge you to find any single chart on MM in the game right now (besides columbine and tempering alloys) that has INCREASED in value over the last month.
According to mine, you wont find one, as everything is deflating.
This is how economies work. Once the market has enough items of a certain type the price comes down. It happens all the time with new technology. DVD players used to cost hundreds of dollars, you can now get one for $40. The deflating is a natural process.
All the advocates realize this while all the adversaries are scared they will no longer be able to extort people.
My margins on goods are already razor thin. Extortion? More like charity. My time crafting food and potions would be better spent just not doing it anymore.
For real, try going into purple food or tripotion business sometime and tell me how much money you make (youre not allowed to farm mats, you must buy them at market price and use that to create your margin, no cheating)
You will actually lose money, the amount of time required to make money as a crafter now is offset by the fact you can actually make more money just grinding mobs mindlessly in a delve somewhere because of the price normalization MM has caused.
Because I deal in consumables, the market should never end or stay relatively static. It has not done this. Pricing margins have gotten to the point now where potion sellers actually lose money because competition has driven the average selling price down UNDER the cost of materials needed.
The only way around it would be to spend several hours farming the mats to make potions at pure profit, but the pure profit over time is not as much as simply grinding junk loot to sell at a vendor.
Its stupid.
Some math.
Current average price for a tripotion is about 135/unit. They are crafted in sets of 4, for a materials max cost of 540. This means to turn a profit, the total cost of 1 bugloss, 1 mountain flower, 1 columbine, and 1 cloud mist has to be under 540 gold.
I can tell you right now just the columbine (240) bugloss (150), and mountain flower (90) leaves barely any wiggle room for profit as it is. 480 in costs already and we havent even added in the water, which by the way does run about 20-30g/unit. So the profit margin on purchased mats vs final product yields a button press margin of far less than 5 percent, despite it taking time to collect/craft/list product, pay the guild store tax, and so on.
And youll never sell that stack of potions for more because MM makes it impossible to turn a profit on the sale, youre "extorting" the market if you dare go over the listed 135/unit. Try to sell it any higher and it simply will not move. Youre literally forced to eat costs. You lose money in the long run.
Again, you could farm the mats yourself, but with all time spent on that, youd make more money just grinding zombies in alikr desert
First, no one is forcing you to sell consumables. Second, farming the mats is the only way to make it profitable. If you want to be a crafter then you have to spend your in game time doing that. It's no different than anything else in game. If you want the best gear you have to spend hours and hours and hours PVP'n and running dungeons and trials. There is no such thing as a casual crafter if you want to make money at it. If you want to craft for profit then you have to be a crafter. I don't like the idea of actively obtain in crafting materials. SWG had a much better crafting system.
For the record, SWG is the only game I've played that's done crafting right. All others pale in comparison.
On your last sentence, there is literally nothing I can do but wholeheartedly agree -.-
Back on the topic at hand, I am well aware of the time investment, however in this particular game, the lack of valued goods is so thin.... as in, there are very few things people even buy in the first place, that to even have a market at all you gotta pick your spot.
Mine was craftable consumables, and it did quite well until the last couple of months when these addons became so commonplace. You can tell now that everyone is using them because prices dont fluctuate kiosk to kiosk. There is no sense of "what person X thinks its worth to them". Its all fixed pricing, which destroys the spirit of a player driven economy. At this point zenimax might as well just be selling every drop item at some arbitrary rate, because the guild stores are no different.
As more markets close, fewer crafters will exist. Personal crafting increases, everyone is self reliant, no one needs a market anymore. This games economy truly dies. Not hyperbole, not just speculation, it is literally the trend.
MM implemented the oh-so-sought-after global auction house.
Those like me asking to never implement it, knew how it'd end up. And here we go, now we effectively have instant price information and therefore everything is level now. That's exactly the effect a global auction house does and now we got it.
As I've said before in this thread, I'm not 100% sold on the concept of a global auction house. That said, you seem to be advocating institutionalized information asymmetry as the basis for a sound market. That comes across as a little bit odd.
If the in-game economy were like a real economy, prices *should* be determined by a mix of scarcity (in the game this is given by the drop rate or the ease of creation for crafted items), perceived value (i.e. what good whatever thing you could be buying does for you) and gold availability.
If prices are driven down so much it's because there are too many similar items or materials to craft them (not enough scarcity) and not enough value provided (you don't really NEED to learn all motifs or recipes, for instance). At the same time, actually useful/hard to get items have their values high enough that lower level or more casual players can't hope to purchase them because there is so much gold created at every corner (fencing, grinding, etc.) and not enough removed through gold sinks.
A global AH would simply expose the frailties of the in-game economy more clearly. But it might also provide an opportunity for a ZOS economist (you DO have one of those overseeing the game economy, right?) to think up solutions such as lowering certain drops and increasing others, or tweaking the gold sinks in the game.2 -
dafox187✭✭✭Everyone is selling stuff @ cost (to be nice?) and still markets flooded with things like recipes etc.
Meanwhile "precious" gems remain @ zero cost.
Everything is way to easy to get in this game, the economy is tanking.
Any plans to fix this?
here some solutions:- don't list so high
- sell things in the guild bank
- sell things in zone chat instead
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments.Edited by ZOS_LenaicR on May 10, 2015 1:13PM
don't get mad at my spelling, autocorrect doesn't cover fantasy.
Why couldn't the Khajiit go to the party? She had to be Elsweyr.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus2 -
pugyourself✭✭✭✭Ourorboros wrote: »Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
In addition to Lord RIchter's comment above, I posted earlier about issues with Master Merchant and other add-ons. I NEVER set my starting price above what is recommended by MM. However, the market is so volatile, I often see my items become overpriced within a matter of days. If my guild missed getting a vendor, I can just about forget selling most items listed that week. By the time we get the vendor my once reasonable prices are higher than the market. I am actually taking this in consideration when I buy things now. If an item is red, and just listed, the seller is gouging, But if the item has been listed for more than a few days, it may have been fairly priced. I'll buy it if there is not a cheaper one listed.
This is why we need a global auction house.
It can actually be an argument the other way, in all honesty...lordrichter wrote: »I do feel that ZOS should add more demand on the gemstones for traits so their value goes up.
This is the first game I have played where precious gems have no value, including prior TES titles.Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
Not necessarily true.
MM is not an absolute. There is considerable variation and what is high for you might be higher or lower for someone else.
I sell stuff over my MM average price all the time.
This is why we need a global auction house. The only way to get a fair price is to have all items available to everyone at the same time without having to run all over the map. Then MM will show us the average sale price of all items of the same type. Not just the sale of the at most 2500 people it can currently track per account.
That would actually make it worse. Currently MM is constantly downtrending everything because the social condition is to always price lower than listed to "sell first"
As that occurs, over and over, everything devalues to the point of hilarity. Or have you not seen the downtrend in say... v1 warlock signets this month alone? They went from 9k to 4k. Not because the sales volume increased, it has remained relatively steady, but because player greed for a quick sale drove the average down, making the next guy drop his, and the next, and the next.
I challenge you to find any single chart on MM in the game right now (besides columbine and tempering alloys) that has INCREASED in value over the last month.
According to mine, you wont find one, as everything is deflating.
This is how economies work. Once the market has enough items of a certain type the price comes down. It happens all the time with new technology. DVD players used to cost hundreds of dollars, you can now get one for $40. The deflating is a natural process.
All the advocates realize this while all the adversaries are scared they will no longer be able to extort people.
My margins on goods are already razor thin. Extortion? More like charity. My time crafting food and potions would be better spent just not doing it anymore.
For real, try going into purple food or tripotion business sometime and tell me how much money you make (youre not allowed to farm mats, you must buy them at market price and use that to create your margin, no cheating)
You will actually lose money, the amount of time required to make money as a crafter now is offset by the fact you can actually make more money just grinding mobs mindlessly in a delve somewhere because of the price normalization MM has caused.
Because I deal in consumables, the market should never end or stay relatively static. It has not done this. Pricing margins have gotten to the point now where potion sellers actually lose money because competition has driven the average selling price down UNDER the cost of materials needed.
The only way around it would be to spend several hours farming the mats to make potions at pure profit, but the pure profit over time is not as much as simply grinding junk loot to sell at a vendor.
Its stupid.
Some math.
Current average price for a tripotion is about 135/unit. They are crafted in sets of 4, for a materials max cost of 540. This means to turn a profit, the total cost of 1 bugloss, 1 mountain flower, 1 columbine, and 1 cloud mist has to be under 540 gold.
I can tell you right now just the columbine (240) bugloss (150), and mountain flower (90) leaves barely any wiggle room for profit as it is. 480 in costs already and we havent even added in the water, which by the way does run about 20-30g/unit. So the profit margin on purchased mats vs final product yields a button press margin of far less than 5 percent, despite it taking time to collect/craft/list product, pay the guild store tax, and so on.
And youll never sell that stack of potions for more because MM makes it impossible to turn a profit on the sale, youre "extorting" the market if you dare go over the listed 135/unit. Try to sell it any higher and it simply will not move. Youre literally forced to eat costs. You lose money in the long run.
Again, you could farm the mats yourself, but with all time spent on that, youd make more money just grinding zombies in alikr desert
First, no one is forcing you to sell consumables. Second, farming the mats is the only way to make it profitable. If you want to be a crafter then you have to spend your in game time doing that. It's no different than anything else in game. If you want the best gear you have to spend hours and hours and hours PVP'n and running dungeons and trials. There is no such thing as a casual crafter if you want to make money at it. If you want to craft for profit then you have to be a crafter. I don't like the idea of actively obtain in crafting materials. SWG had a much better crafting system.
For the record, SWG is the only game I've played that's done crafting right. All others pale in comparison.
On your last sentence, there is literally nothing I can do but wholeheartedly agree -.-
Back on the topic at hand, I am well aware of the time investment, however in this particular game, the lack of valued goods is so thin.... as in, there are very few things people even buy in the first place, that to even have a market at all you gotta pick your spot.
Mine was craftable consumables, and it did quite well until the last couple of months when these addons became so commonplace. You can tell now that everyone is using them because prices dont fluctuate kiosk to kiosk. There is no sense of "what person X thinks its worth to them". Its all fixed pricing, which destroys the spirit of a player driven economy. At this point zenimax might as well just be selling every drop item at some arbitrary rate, because the guild stores are no different.
As more markets close, fewer crafters will exist. Personal crafting increases, everyone is self reliant, no one needs a market anymore. This games economy truly dies. Not hyperbole, not just speculation, it is literally the trend.
MM implemented the oh-so-sought-after global auction house.
Those like me asking to never implement it, knew how it'd end up. And here we go, now we effectively have instant price information and therefore everything is level now. That's exactly the effect a global auction house does and now we got it.
It really didn't. MM is pretty awesome and useful, especially for rare goods. It could be tweaked a little to avoid deflation in commodity-type goods but it's really a great tool for sellers.
We still have guilds and kiosks and local economies. MM impacts all of those (mostly positively with the exception of commodity-type goods). An auction house would be far worse.0 -
eagardh_ESO✭✭As a new player of ESO I wanted to drop my comments here for use if anyone cares.
Firstly, I have seen what player-made mods can do to a MMO and I won't use them anymore in any MMO. I have none installed in ESO. I will play ESO as the Devs provided it. In a single player RPG like Skyrim yes I will use some mods in those, but not in a MMO.
Secondly as far as the Guild Stores go when I decided to play ESO I wasn't sure how I would like or dislike them.... after playing the game for only a few weeks I have discovered I do not like the guild store concept and I no longer use guild stores. It's very time consuming and makes my brain hurt to go to all them stalls (I hate shopping) and the prices I have seen for many items are out of reach for a new Player like myself. I will rely on drops, quest rewards, and crafting for my items. If I reach a place in the game where this no longer works I am done. I won't use the Crown store (another discussion).
So I personally hope Zenimax does something like a gamewide auction house. If they don't then I will just keep doing what I am doing now.... being self sufficient.Edited by eagardh_ESO on May 10, 2015 1:45AM3 -
Sevalaricgirl✭✭✭✭✭Guild stores charge an outrageous amount for items. Many of us with high level characters won't even shop at them. This is why a global auction house is very important and why ZOS screwed up big time by not adding one.1
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Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sevalaricgirl wrote: »Guild stores charge an outrageous amount for items. Many of us with high level characters won't even shop at them. This is why a global auction house is very important and why ZOS screwed up big time by not adding one.
Guild stores charge exactly what people are willing to spend. Pros & Cons set aside, this is exactly what MM demonstrates.
The problem is that people are willing to spend outlandish amounts of gold for certain items because ESO has very few gold sinks.Edited by Alphashado on May 10, 2015 3:15AM3 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Not necessarily. Anyone can farm AP for a few days, get lucky and get 7 or 8 nice pieces from AP bags. Because these pieces are selling for up to 250k each, it wouldn't take much to reach a million in a week. ZoS needs to nip the AP gear in the bud asap. They need to make it BoP so this madness comes to a stop and they need to sell it on the Cyrodiil Vendors for gold in order to create a true gold sink.
Sell it for both AP and Gold, that way you still keep PvPers happy as well. But it should be BoP. Alot of people would gripe about this. Particularly those that are making millions of gold selling it, but this would go a long ways towards curbing this massive inflation.
It wasn't that long ago that people were griping about the cost of rare motifs. At 30k+ these used to be the big money makers. AP gear is making that look like chump change.
Edited by Alphashado on May 10, 2015 3:47AM2 -
Ourorboros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.Edited by Ourorboros on May 10, 2015 4:07AMPC/NA/DCBreton Sorcerer Maester.White - BB meets GoT >Master Crafter< { 9 Traits completed 4/23/15 }
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ESO: the game you hate to love and love to hate....( >_<) May RNG be with you (*,_,*)4 -
maryriv✭✭✭✭Ourorboros wrote: »Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.
Agreed, MM is ruining prices. Deliberate you think?0 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ourorboros wrote: »Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.
I think so. All that data is still there with a tiny amount of leg work, but the red or green colors certainly make it easy. Almost too easy. At this rate, average items will be selling for pennies more than vendor value. This excludes rare items of course, which will only continue to rise in value until ZOS adds some gold sinks and makes AP gear BoP.
Edited by Alphashado on May 10, 2015 4:15AM1 -
maryriv✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.
I think so. All that data is still there with a tiny amount of leg work, but the red or green colors certainly make it easy. Almost too easy. At this rate, average items will be selling for pennies more than vendor value. This excludes rare items of course, which will only continue to rise in value until ZOS adds some gold sinks and makes AP gear BoP.
I have noticed this too, very bad for the economy.
On another note:
BoP ruins economies not builds them. BoE allows for a player driven economy. Only people who want cheap prices for themselves with no concern for the economy want BoP.1 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have nothing against BoE in general. But having some of the best gear in the game as BoE while having very few gold sinks is a recipe for disaster. I have no problem with average gear and crafted gear being BoE. Especially crafted gear. But there is a reason you seldom see the best gear in the game as BoE in an MMO. I am all for a player driven economy. But like I said, the only people that are going to gripe about AP gear getting switched to BoP are those that PvP all day and are raking in millions of gold from it.
And please explain how BoP equates to "cheap prices". If anything, BoP makes it harder to get this gear. It certainly wouldn't make it easier or cheaper. I wouldn't care if they sold it on the vendors for 200k each. Which of course would make it more expensive, not cheaper. And it would be a gold sink, which this game sorely needs.Edited by Alphashado on May 10, 2015 5:10AM2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As I've said before in this thread, I'm not 100% sold on the concept of a global auction house. That said, you seem to be advocating institutionalized information asymmetry as the basis for a sound market. That comes across as a little bit odd.
If the in-game economy were like a real economy, prices *should* be determined by a mix of scarcity (in the game this is given by the drop rate or the ease of creation for crafted items), perceived value (i.e. what good whatever thing you could be buying does for you) and gold availability.
If prices are driven down so much it's because there are too many similar items or materials to craft them (not enough scarcity) and not enough value provided (you don't really NEED to learn all motifs or recipes, for instance). At the same time, actually useful/hard to get items have their values high enough that lower level or more casual players can't hope to purchase them because there is so much gold created at every corner (fencing, grinding, etc.) and not enough removed through gold sinks.
A global AH would simply expose the frailties of the in-game economy more clearly. But it might also provide an opportunity for a ZOS economist (you DO have one of those overseeing the game economy, right?) to think up solutions such as lowering certain drops and increasing others, or tweaking the gold sinks in the game.
As you can see, I love - actually, I make large profits - on information symmetry. I even post game market analyses like in this EvE Online Nitrogen Isotopes post on my personal "gaming" blog.
So why am I "against" it? Exactly because of what you state at the end. A global AH indeed exposes the frailties of game economies and amplifies them. ESO's economy, unlike other more solid games economies, is very, very fragile. It's completely based on wallets and information segregation, because ESO just does not implement items (and money, in a lesser degree) sinks in any viable manner. This means, the moment you remove the "segregation", information causes immediate market crashes.
So why me, a guy who trades in real life, wants to go against his own good? Because games with little new content and with a totally mature economy die and I don't want ESO to die.
Unoptimized markets are young markets (markets evolve towards optimization till spreads tend to zero), markets where the "little guy" who loves crafting can do so, where the new player with little money can confidently sell stuff at a profit. The former can apply a markup and feel it's been worth training to be a crafter. The latter latter pays a bit more for his own gear but he only got to fill his few gear slots (whereas he can sell 150 items at a time) and the game gives him a lot of gear as quests prize.
Mature markets - as you can also see in real life, are "big guys" markets, held tight by ultra-large organizations that make a profit over razor thin spreads only because their scale makes that possible.
The only thing that saves ESO so far, is the physical impossibility for one guild to take over many guild stores. Otherwise they could freely manipulate prices down until everyone else gives up.
Markets are opposing forces showdowns, the larger the forces the worse is for the individual crafter / new player.
I know in real life the markets are mature and stuff still "works" but look... the same ever-squeezing spreads caused all sorts of nasty stuff, including having to use leverage and notional, having to build certain kinds of opaque derivatives and so on.
Look at globalization... it's having the same levelling down (on salaries) that you can see in games. Because if you centralize prices and centralize work wages, all you get is a giant "China" of poorly paid slaves. Fantastic... for multinationals. Awful for the little people.
If anything, real life markets have the benefit of commodities being actually spent. In ESO? Not so much, way not enough.Vaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
Trials addict, soloer extraordinaire!
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daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As I've said before in this thread, I'm not 100% sold on the concept of a global auction house. That said, you seem to be advocating institutionalized information asymmetry as the basis for a sound market. That comes across as a little bit odd.
If the in-game economy were like a real economy, prices *should* be determined by a mix of scarcity (in the game this is given by the drop rate or the ease of creation for crafted items), perceived value (i.e. what good whatever thing you could be buying does for you) and gold availability.
If prices are driven down so much it's because there are too many similar items or materials to craft them (not enough scarcity) and not enough value provided (you don't really NEED to learn all motifs or recipes, for instance). At the same time, actually useful/hard to get items have their values high enough that lower level or more casual players can't hope to purchase them because there is so much gold created at every corner (fencing, grinding, etc.) and not enough removed through gold sinks.
A global AH would simply expose the frailties of the in-game economy more clearly. But it might also provide an opportunity for a ZOS economist (you DO have one of those overseeing the game economy, right?) to think up solutions such as lowering certain drops and increasing others, or tweaking the gold sinks in the game.
As you can see, I love - actually, I make large profits - on information symmetry. I even post game market analyses like in this EvE Online Nitrogen Isotopes post on my personal "gaming" blog.
So why am I "against" it? Exactly because of what you state at the end. A global AH indeed exposes the frailties of game economies and amplifies them. ESO's economy, unlike other more solid games economies, is very, very fragile. It's completely based on wallets and information segregation, because ESO just does not implement items (and money, in a lesser degree) sinks in any viable manner. This means, the moment you remove the "segregation", information causes immediate market crashes.
So why me, a guy who trades in real life, wants to go against his own good? Because games with little new content and with a totally mature economy die and I don't want ESO to die.
Unoptimized markets are young markets (markets evolve towards optimization till spreads tend to zero), markets where the "little guy" who loves crafting can do so, where the new player with little money can confidently sell stuff at a profit. The former can apply a markup and feel it's been worth training to be a crafter. The latter latter pays a bit more for his own gear but he only got to fill his few gear slots (whereas he can sell 150 items at a time) and the game gives him a lot of gear as quests prize.
Mature markets - as you can also see in real life, are "big guys" markets, held tight by ultra-large organizations that make a profit over razor thin spreads only because their scale makes that possible.
The only thing that saves ESO so far, is the physical impossibility for one guild to take over many guild stores. Otherwise they could freely manipulate prices down until everyone else gives up.
Markets are opposing forces showdowns, the larger the forces the worse is for the individual crafter / new player.
I know in real life the markets are mature and stuff still "works" but look... the same ever-squeezing spreads caused all sorts of nasty stuff, including having to use leverage and notional, having to build certain kinds of opaque derivatives and so on.
Look at globalization... it's having the same levelling down (on salaries) that you can see in games. Because if you centralize prices and centralize work wages, all you get is a giant "China" of poorly paid slaves. Fantastic... for multinationals. Awful for the little people.
If anything, real life markets have the benefit of commodities being actually spent. In ESO? Not so much, way not enough.
That was a very insightful post. Thank you very much. I'm now more convinced that the global AH is not the solution. Still, I'd like to see some changes to the current system because it feels like the devs are hiding behind the PITA that is browsing different vendors to avoid correcting serious flaws in the game economy (just as they hide behind add-ons to avoid giving us certain must-have UI features).0 -
Jaxsun✭✭✭✭Ourorboros wrote: »Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
In addition to Lord RIchter's comment above, I posted earlier about issues with Master Merchant and other add-ons. I NEVER set my starting price above what is recommended by MM. However, the market is so volatile, I often see my items become overpriced within a matter of days. If my guild missed getting a vendor, I can just about forget selling most items listed that week. By the time we get the vendor my once reasonable prices are higher than the market. I am actually taking this in consideration when I buy things now. If an item is red, and just listed, the seller is gouging, But if the item has been listed for more than a few days, it may have been fairly priced. I'll buy it if there is not a cheaper one listed.
This is why we need a global auction house.
It can actually be an argument the other way, in all honesty...lordrichter wrote: »I do feel that ZOS should add more demand on the gemstones for traits so their value goes up.
This is the first game I have played where precious gems have no value, including prior TES titles.Amsel_McKay wrote: »Master Merchant is to blame... If your item is red people dont buy... and even by a little I test this all the time making the same item sometimes 1g more and it will never sell where as the other item will sell in less than an hour.
If it's red you've overpriced it...
Not necessarily true.
MM is not an absolute. There is considerable variation and what is high for you might be higher or lower for someone else.
I sell stuff over my MM average price all the time.
This is why we need a global auction house. The only way to get a fair price is to have all items available to everyone at the same time without having to run all over the map. Then MM will show us the average sale price of all items of the same type. Not just the sale of the at most 2500 people it can currently track per account.
That would actually make it worse. Currently MM is constantly downtrending everything because the social condition is to always price lower than listed to "sell first"
As that occurs, over and over, everything devalues to the point of hilarity. Or have you not seen the downtrend in say... v1 warlock signets this month alone? They went from 9k to 4k. Not because the sales volume increased, it has remained relatively steady, but because player greed for a quick sale drove the average down, making the next guy drop his, and the next, and the next.
I challenge you to find any single chart on MM in the game right now (besides columbine and tempering alloys) that has INCREASED in value over the last month.
According to mine, you wont find one, as everything is deflating.
This is how economies work. Once the market has enough items of a certain type the price comes down. It happens all the time with new technology. DVD players used to cost hundreds of dollars, you can now get one for $40. The deflating is a natural process.
All the advocates realize this while all the adversaries are scared they will no longer be able to extort people.
My margins on goods are already razor thin. Extortion? More like charity. My time crafting food and potions would be better spent just not doing it anymore.
For real, try going into purple food or tripotion business sometime and tell me how much money you make (youre not allowed to farm mats, you must buy them at market price and use that to create your margin, no cheating)
You will actually lose money, the amount of time required to make money as a crafter now is offset by the fact you can actually make more money just grinding mobs mindlessly in a delve somewhere because of the price normalization MM has caused.
Because I deal in consumables, the market should never end or stay relatively static. It has not done this. Pricing margins have gotten to the point now where potion sellers actually lose money because competition has driven the average selling price down UNDER the cost of materials needed.
The only way around it would be to spend several hours farming the mats to make potions at pure profit, but the pure profit over time is not as much as simply grinding junk loot to sell at a vendor.
Its stupid.
Some math.
Current average price for a tripotion is about 135/unit. They are crafted in sets of 4, for a materials max cost of 540. This means to turn a profit, the total cost of 1 bugloss, 1 mountain flower, 1 columbine, and 1 cloud mist has to be under 540 gold.
I can tell you right now just the columbine (240) bugloss (150), and mountain flower (90) leaves barely any wiggle room for profit as it is. 480 in costs already and we havent even added in the water, which by the way does run about 20-30g/unit. So the profit margin on purchased mats vs final product yields a button press margin of far less than 5 percent, despite it taking time to collect/craft/list product, pay the guild store tax, and so on.
And youll never sell that stack of potions for more because MM makes it impossible to turn a profit on the sale, youre "extorting" the market if you dare go over the listed 135/unit. Try to sell it any higher and it simply will not move. Youre literally forced to eat costs. You lose money in the long run.
Again, you could farm the mats yourself, but with all time spent on that, youd make more money just grinding zombies in alikr desert
First, no one is forcing you to sell consumables. Second, farming the mats is the only way to make it profitable. If you want to be a crafter then you have to spend your in game time doing that. It's no different than anything else in game. If you want the best gear you have to spend hours and hours and hours PVP'n and running dungeons and trials. There is no such thing as a casual crafter if you want to make money at it. If you want to craft for profit then you have to be a crafter. I don't like the idea of actively obtain in crafting materials. SWG had a much better crafting system.
For the record, SWG is the only game I've played that's done crafting right. All others pale in comparison.
On your last sentence, there is literally nothing I can do but wholeheartedly agree -.-
Back on the topic at hand, I am well aware of the time investment, however in this particular game, the lack of valued goods is so thin.... as in, there are very few things people even buy in the first place, that to even have a market at all you gotta pick your spot.
Mine was craftable consumables, and it did quite well until the last couple of months when these addons became so commonplace. You can tell now that everyone is using them because prices dont fluctuate kiosk to kiosk. There is no sense of "what person X thinks its worth to them". Its all fixed pricing, which destroys the spirit of a player driven economy. At this point zenimax might as well just be selling every drop item at some arbitrary rate, because the guild stores are no different.
As more markets close, fewer crafters will exist. Personal crafting increases, everyone is self reliant, no one needs a market anymore. This games economy truly dies. Not hyperbole, not just speculation, it is literally the trend.
MM implemented the oh-so-sought-after global auction house.
Those like me asking to never implement it, knew how it'd end up. And here we go, now we effectively have instant price information and therefore everything is level now. That's exactly the effect a global auction house does and now we got it.
It's far from global. M.M. Only tracks the sales of the 5 guilds you are in.
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LtCrunch✭✭✭✭✭
✭WAttorneyatlawl wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »As much as I love it, I blame Master Merchant. I have listed multiple recipes below the current price, only to have them be flagged in red as above average in a matter of days. Whether people are just skipping past red items or actively filtering them out, my sales have taken a big hit since MM arrived on the scene. As a buyer, I'm thrilled by this, but as a seller, it is making that aspect of the game frustrating.
Several of my guilds that usually have a vendor have also been outbid by deeper pockets that have no goods to sell. That is also frustrating.
However, certain items will sell very quickly for a good price. So part of this is knowing the market and putting the right items up for sale.
Part of the problem is M.M doesn't use weighted averages, so it's more easily manipulated. Why people prefer M.M. over datadaedra/dd shopkeeper I'll never understand. The fact that M.M. installs 17 files is enough to keep me away. There is no good reason for that many files to be installed. The same, hell improved functionality is achieved with just2 files with datadaedra/ddshopkeeper. Something fishy is going on with M.M. or it's poorly coded/optimized, either way I don't want any part of it.
Not a single thing in your post is true. Master Merchant does use weighted averages, and has a toggle for filtering outlier prices from the results. It shows a scatter plot of the price history, and any text can be edited in a chat box anyway regardless of what addon you're using. Master Merchant scrapes data from ACTUAL SALES on the guild stores you're in, whereas datadaedra simply records what you see on kiosks including anything posted, regardless of one has ever even sold at that price, even if it's a market decoration priced at fifty times the usual price. Master Merchant is a tool you can use to better your already existing pricing methods, just as Excel is. Finally, had you read anything before clicking download and tossing the files into the game, it is explained and necessarily so that it is one addon, with extra light storage mule addons to hold the database you generate. This is a workaround to issues with how addons are allowed to store information with ESO's API, and has quite literally zero relevance as to whether it's "fishy", "unoptimized", or otherwise. How can you expect to hold a conversation about this kind of topic when you don't even have the facts or knowledge to form your opinion off of?
Your entire post is undone with the bolded statement @Attorneyatlawl . You have no idea how dd functions currently. It only tracks ACTUAL sales just like M.M. and has ALL of the functionality M.M. does when paired with dd shopkeeper and it only uses 2 files to M.M.'s 17 and had the functionality earlier. Due to how uniformed you are about datadaedra I can't take anything in your post seriously; sorry.NerdSauce GamingLaughs-At-Wounds - Sap tanking since 03/30/14ßrandalf - Light armor tanking since 03/03/15Brandalf Beer-Belly - Tanking drunk since 12/30/161 -
Jaxsun✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.
I think so. All that data is still there with a tiny amount of leg work, but the red or green colors certainly make it easy. Almost too easy. At this rate, average items will be selling for pennies more than vendor value. This excludes rare items of course, which will only continue to rise in value until ZOS adds some gold sinks and makes AP gear BoP.
It doesn't need to be BoP. It needs to be sold on the vendors outright eliminating the bags that drop items.0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.
I think so. All that data is still there with a tiny amount of leg work, but the red or green colors certainly make it easy. Almost too easy. At this rate, average items will be selling for pennies more than vendor value. This excludes rare items of course, which will only continue to rise in value until ZOS adds some gold sinks and makes AP gear BoP.
It doesn't need to be BoP. It needs to be sold on the vendors outright eliminating the bags that drop items.
Some of it is on the vendors and purchaseable outright for AP already, rare sets are intentionally rare. Bind on Pickup for all pvp gear with AP would be ridiculous, however, since it's on par with PVE at this time for making money by selling what you don't need (either bags, opening bags yourself, or buying items directly off the vendors and selling those) just like we sell greatswords of the dreugh king slayer or legendary healer rings now
. -First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.2 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.
I think so. All that data is still there with a tiny amount of leg work, but the red or green colors certainly make it easy. Almost too easy. At this rate, average items will be selling for pennies more than vendor value. This excludes rare items of course, which will only continue to rise in value until ZOS adds some gold sinks and makes AP gear BoP.
It doesn't need to be BoP. It needs to be sold on the vendors outright eliminating the bags that drop items.
Some of it is on the vendors and purchaseable outright for AP already, rare sets are intentionally rare. Bind on Pickup for all pvp gear with AP would be ridiculous, however, since it's on par with PVE at this time for making money by selling what you don't need (either bags, opening bags yourself, or buying items directly off the vendors and selling those) just like we sell greatswords of the dreugh king slayer or legendary healer rings now.
People aren't "selling what they don't need." They are farming AP specifically to get gear pieces that sell for ridiculously inflated values because there are no gold sinks. I have played almost every AAA MMO ever created and you will have to remind me of another one that allowed you to sell top end PvE gear that was earned through PvP. Because I can't think of any.
This still isn't the core of the problem though, because people would still be sitting on millions of gold. A solid fix would be to make this gear available to everyone via gold or AP on the vendors. It would stop the inflation and create a gold sink at the same time.
I'm not suggesting making it cheap. 100k-200k per piece would be fine.Edited by Alphashado on May 10, 2015 2:41PM0 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »
Not necessarily. Anyone can farm AP for a few days, get lucky and get 7 or 8 nice pieces from AP bags. Because these pieces are selling for up to 250k each, it wouldn't take much to reach a million in a week. ZoS needs to nip the AP gear in the bud asap. They need to make it BoP so this madness comes to a stop and they need to sell it on the Cyrodiil Vendors for gold in order to create a true gold sink.
Sell it for both AP and Gold, that way you still keep PvPers happy as well. But it should be BoP. Alot of people would gripe about this. Particularly those that are making millions of gold selling it, but this would go a long ways towards curbing this massive inflation.
It wasn't that long ago that people were griping about the cost of rare motifs. At 30k+ these used to be the big money makers. AP gear is making that look like chump change.
Sell Trials and vet DSA gear then, too. Fair's fair, after all. Then if we ever have a cash shop item we can sell to others for gold, we can buy what we want! /sarcasm. -First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.2 -
Attorneyatlawl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.
I think so. All that data is still there with a tiny amount of leg work, but the red or green colors certainly make it easy. Almost too easy. At this rate, average items will be selling for pennies more than vendor value. This excludes rare items of course, which will only continue to rise in value until ZOS adds some gold sinks and makes AP gear BoP.
It doesn't need to be BoP. It needs to be sold on the vendors outright eliminating the bags that drop items.
Some of it is on the vendors and purchaseable outright for AP already, rare sets are intentionally rare. Bind on Pickup for all pvp gear with AP would be ridiculous, however, since it's on par with PVE at this time for making money by selling what you don't need (either bags, opening bags yourself, or buying items directly off the vendors and selling those) just like we sell greatswords of the dreugh king slayer or legendary healer rings now.
People aren't "selling what they don't need." They are farming AP specifically to get gear pieces that sell for ridiculously inflated values because there are no gold sinks. I have played almost every AAA MMO ever created and you will have to remind me of another one that allowed you to sell top end PvE gear that was earned through PvP. Because I can't think of any.
This still isn't the core of the problem though, because people would still be sitting on millions of gold. A solid fix would be to make this gear available to everyone via gold or AP on the vendors. It would stop the inflation and create a gold sink at the same time.
I'm not suggesting making it cheap. 100k-200k per piece would be fine.
Nope. Some of the best gear for pvp comes from raids and vet dsa too. I hope you also will ask that we be able to buy master weaps, vicious ophidian, skirmisher, healer's habit, and dreugh slayer items for gold from npc vendors then!
The solution to not liking the pricing other players ask for their items that they earned (not you) is simple: earn the gold and buy it, or earn the gear by playing the game to do so.
The solution to mudflation is legitimate and repeatedly needed services and items from NPC's that can't be bypassed for cash like respecs, repair kits, etc,. and automatic costs like a built in gold fee per crafting make for using the tools in towns. Changing existing and balanced parts of the economy out of spite because you are not earning your stuff, let alone even if you were advocating it be changed for the entire game rather than only non PVE gameplay rewards as you are for some reason.... not so much.-First-Wave Closed Beta Tester of the Psijic Order, aka the 0.016 percent.
Exploits suck. Don't blame just the game, blame the players abusing them!
-Playing since July 2013, back when we had a killspam channel in Cyrodiil and the lands of Tamriel were roamed by dinosaurs.
________________
-In-game mains abound with "Nerf" in their name. As I am asked occasionally, I do not play on anything but the PC NA Megaserver at this time.2 -
Psychobunni✭✭✭✭✭
✭If only we had a house to buy, upgrade, and maintain with IN GAME GOLD.If options weren't necessary, and everyone played the same way, no one would use addons. Fix the UI!3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Psychobunni wrote: »If only we had a house to buy, upgrade, and maintain with IN GAME GOLD.
Yeah, there is a good possibility that such features will be Crowns instead of Gold.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus2 -
Alphashado✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »Attorneyatlawl wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »Ourorboros wrote: »Do you think it would make a difference if Master Merchant eliminated the red color from prices? Without that flag, items that get passed over might get sold. Specifically items with a single listing in a kiosk that may have been fairly priced a few days earlier but since have dropped below the current selling point. That red price is a psychological stop button. Without the color the information is the same without a visual cue that stops a sale of what may be a fairly price item. Removing the red color may not stop prices from drifting down, nor should it if that is where the market is headed. But removing the red might stop prices from plummeting in a matter of days, giving currently listed goods a chance to sell.
I think so. All that data is still there with a tiny amount of leg work, but the red or green colors certainly make it easy. Almost too easy. At this rate, average items will be selling for pennies more than vendor value. This excludes rare items of course, which will only continue to rise in value until ZOS adds some gold sinks and makes AP gear BoP.
It doesn't need to be BoP. It needs to be sold on the vendors outright eliminating the bags that drop items.
Some of it is on the vendors and purchaseable outright for AP already, rare sets are intentionally rare. Bind on Pickup for all pvp gear with AP would be ridiculous, however, since it's on par with PVE at this time for making money by selling what you don't need (either bags, opening bags yourself, or buying items directly off the vendors and selling those) just like we sell greatswords of the dreugh king slayer or legendary healer rings now.
People aren't "selling what they don't need." They are farming AP specifically to get gear pieces that sell for ridiculously inflated values because there are no gold sinks. I have played almost every AAA MMO ever created and you will have to remind me of another one that allowed you to sell top end PvE gear that was earned through PvP. Because I can't think of any.
This still isn't the core of the problem though, because people would still be sitting on millions of gold. A solid fix would be to make this gear available to everyone via gold or AP on the vendors. It would stop the inflation and create a gold sink at the same time.
I'm not suggesting making it cheap. 100k-200k per piece would be fine.
Nope. Some of the best gear for pvp comes from raids and vet dsa too. I hope you also will ask that we be able to buy master weaps, vicious ophidian, skirmisher, healer's habit, and dreugh slayer items for gold from npc vendors then!
The solution to not liking the pricing other players ask for their items that they earned (not you) is simple: earn the gold and buy it, or earn the gear by playing the game to do so.
The solution to mudflation is legitimate and repeatedly needed services and items from NPC's that can't be bypassed for cash like respecs, repair kits, etc,. and automatic costs like a built in gold fee per crafting make for using the tools in towns. Changing existing and balanced parts of the economy out of spite because you are not earning your stuff, let alone even if you were advocating it be changed for the entire game rather than only non PVE gameplay rewards as you are for some reason.... not so much.
As usual, you make a lot of assumptions. I can afford this gear. My NB is wearing 4 pieces of Shadow Walker that I paid handsomely for. I could easily afford to fully deck out any one of my VR characters from head to toe in AP gear or any other BoE gear. So your assumption that I am griping because I can't afford this stuff is a typical defense and quite insulting. I am not struggling for money.
I am however genuinely concerned about the state of the economy in ESO. Not because I have a secret agenda, or because I want cheaper prices for myself, or because of any other secretly disguised or thinly veiled motive.
There is something wrong with the system when one piece of gear can sell for an amount far greater than the amount of gold generated by sales tax for a guild with 500 people. No amount of insults, finger pointing, or false assumptions will change that.
Amidst your false assumptions, you failed to notice my suggested prices for this gear if it were to be available for gold on the vendors. If my issue was price, I wouldn't have suggested such a high vendor price.
The game needs gold sinks, not top end BoE gear that just continues to inflate and circulate large amounts of gold. It's hurting the economy.
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Sevalaricgirl✭✭✭✭✭Alphashado wrote: »Sevalaricgirl wrote: »Guild stores charge an outrageous amount for items. Many of us with high level characters won't even shop at them. This is why a global auction house is very important and why ZOS screwed up big time by not adding one.
Guild stores charge exactly what people are willing to spend. Pros & Cons set aside, this is exactly what MM demonstrates.
The problem is that people are willing to spend outlandish amounts of gold for certain items because ESO has very few gold sinks.
Only certain people are. The majority are probably not.
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MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭Sevalaricgirl wrote: »Alphashado wrote: »Sevalaricgirl wrote: »Guild stores charge an outrageous amount for items. Many of us with high level characters won't even shop at them. This is why a global auction house is very important and why ZOS screwed up big time by not adding one.
Guild stores charge exactly what people are willing to spend. Pros & Cons set aside, this is exactly what MM demonstrates.
The problem is that people are willing to spend outlandish amounts of gold for certain items because ESO has very few gold sinks.
Only certain people are. The majority are probably not.
I'm one of those that will not pay the exorbitant pricing of things like motifs, food, drink, potions, armors....hells, just about everything is overpriced in my opinion.I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.0
